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Thread: DingDing goes DIY: JBL 2404 mounted inside or outside 2360A and one or two 2123?

  1. #1
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    DingDing goes DIY: JBL 2404 mounted inside or outside 2360A and one or two 2123?

    First time speaker builder, but have done subs in the past. In the process of planning and have all parts needed, less wood, but that's easy. The concept is to achieve extreme dynamics from 60 Hz up, as I've got ample headroom below 60 already.

    Crossover, got 12 channels from a pair of miniDSP 4x10 HD's available. Time aligning drivers will be done digitally.

    The idea is using at least two 2226 per speaker, they will be sealed and EQ'ed a little bit to give good extension down to about 60 Hz. Furthermore, there will be at least one 2123. So: 2404 or 2405 + 2446 in 2360A + 2123 + 2226.

    Thinking a lot about how to incorporate 2404 (or 2405) together with 2360A. I can put the uhf driver inside the cabinet for the mids (separate enclosure inside the big cabinet) and woofers or mount it inside or outside the horn.

    The 2360A's has a pair of holes and I could build a jig there to place the UHF driver in, either inside or outside the chassis. Planned XO is approx 6-10khz. Not quite sure yet. Kind of like this.

    Inside:
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    Outside:
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    My take on late night light photoshopping random pictures from the web, lol. Is this a niet, niet? Why?

    Two or more 2226's will yield very high sensitivity and a single 2123 will be the limiting factor. Could I use a pair in each or would that create all sorts of problems? What if I mount them super close like I see some PA-systems does with multiples? Can they cover the same range without issues? I was hoping I could have them go to 1.3-1.6kHz approx before 2446 takes the stage.

    Front loaded horn for the one or two 2123 may be an option, but can't model with hornresp, so haven't looked into it much.

    Any input? Please be gentle.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Lee in Montreal's Avatar
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    Yes. You could run two 2226 and a single 2360. With proper eq, you won't really need a tweeter. Actually, if you like sizzling highs, then maybe you could use a different horn. Maybe a Yuchi 290 and couple it to a 2405.

    BTW Those 2226 needs some serious bumping around 40Hz (with Q = around 1.0) to get that nice round and deep bass. Get at least 5cft per driver.

    Keep this a two-way and you won't be disapointed. Your sub(s) will fill in foe the bottom octavle. It is what I do with my 2226 and 2360

    Lee

    PS Bass reflex tuned to 50Hz. Cross the 2226 at around 600-700Hz to the 2360. Use a 2445 as it was designed for the 2360.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee in Montreal View Post
    Yes. You could run two 2226 and a single 2360. With proper eq, you won't really need a tweeter. Actually, if you like sizzling highs, then maybe you could use a different horn. Maybe a Yuchi 290 and couple it to a 2405.

    BTW Those 2226 needs some serious bumping around 40Hz (with Q = around 1.0) to get that nice round and deep bass. Get at least 5cft per driver.

    Keep this a two-way and you won't be disapointed. Your sub(s) will fill in foe the bottom octavle. It is what I do with my 2226 and 2360

    Lee

    PS Bass reflex tuned to 40Hz. Cross the 2226 at around 600-700Hz to the 2360. Use a 2445 as it was designed for the 2360.
    Thanks for the input, I have a 2445J too, but need another one to make a pair, why is 2445 better suited than 2446 for 2360A?

    I'm running two 2226's with 2360 now. It's great. XO @ 600, just like you say. The 2404 is sitting preliminary for testing, and I think it benefits the highs immensely. Current XO @ 10khz at the -6dB point. Makes the breakup/ringing of Ti less prominent.

    However, my experience with 4343 says that there is great merit to that 10" 2121 driver, hence why 2123 was bought for this project. I really want to see how that driver will fit into this scheme.

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    Senior Member Lee in Montreal's Avatar
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    How did you eq the 2360?

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    I didn't investigate it a lot because it subjectively sounded hard without any EQ.

    I did do a slight negative peak filter at 10 kHz with and without a positive high shelf above, but it didn't work well for me subjectively. I didn't measure though, did it all by ear. I gave it a week until I hooked up 2404 and thought the result was substantially better. I think it's the 10khz or later Titanium ringing my ears can't stand because the peak filter helped somewhat, but not to the extent 2404 did.

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    Senior Member 1audiohack's Avatar
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    I certainly agree and love the magic of a 2123. A snare played full stick will nearly crack the enamel on your teeth and 2123 will replicate that better than any other cone driver I have ever had.

    Being as you already have plenty of linear overlap between the 2226's and 2360's that a single 2123 will play loud enough.

    Barry.
    If we knew what the hell we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we.

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    Senior Member Lee in Montreal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DingDing View Post
    I didn't investigate it a lot because it subjectively sounded hard without any EQ.

    I did do a slight negative peak filter at 10 kHz with and without a positive high shelf above, but it didn't work well for me subjectively. I didn't measure though, did it all by ear. I gave it a week until I hooked up 2404 and thought the result was substantially better. I think it's the 10khz or later Titanium ringing my ears can't stand because the peak filter helped somewhat, but not to the extent 2404 did.
    "slight" is not enough, hence your decision to add a tweeter. The correction is of around 12db. When I am back from riding Mississippi, I'll give you a screenshot of the correction I did. For more details, I suggest you look into "CD correction"

    Start here http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...-install/page3

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    miniDSP

    Nice pix!

    DO you like the miniDSP? Any issues with them?
    Amazed I'm still alive!
    Tim

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    Senior Member ivica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DingDing View Post
    First time speaker builder, but have done subs in the past. In the process of planning and have all parts needed, less wood, but that's easy. The concept is to achieve extreme dynamics from 60 Hz up, as I've got ample headroom below 60 already. Crossover, got 12 channels from a pair of miniDSP 4x10 HD's available. Time aligning drivers will be done digitally. The idea is using at least two 2226 per speaker, they will be sealed and EQ'ed a little bit to give good extension down to about 60 Hz. Furthermore, there will be at least one 2123. So: 2404 or 2405 + 2446 in 2360A + 2123 + 2226. Thinking a lot about how to incorporate 2404 (or 2405) together with 2360A. I can put the uhf driver inside the cabinet for the mids (separate enclosure inside the big cabinet) and woofers or mount it inside or outside the horn. The 2360A's has a pair of holes and I could build a jig there to place the UHF driver in, either inside or outside the chassis. Planned XO is approx 6-10khz. Not quite sure yet. Kind of like this. Two or more 2226's will yield very high sensitivity and a single 2123 will be the limiting factor. Could I use a pair in each or would that create all sorts of problems? What if I mount them super close like I see some PA-systems does with multiples? Can they cover the same range without issues? I was hoping I could have them go to 1.3-1.6kHz approx before 2446 takes the stage. Front loaded horn for the one or two 2123 may be an option, but can't model with hornresp, so haven't looked into it much. Any input? Please be gentle.
    Hi DingDing, Why not 2242 + 2226+ 2123+ 2446&2360 +2405..... regards ivica

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    Guys, remember that you're not talking to a savvy person here. This is a big undertaking and will be a slow and fun learning process, so if I go against conventional wisdom etc it's just to find boundaries and experience them. A bad design may give poor audio but teach you a lot about what not to do. Not saying you should stand back and let me fail miserably, but if I do something out of the ordinary or against your better judgement it's not because I don't respect your opinions, but because I want to experiment and learn. Hope you guys remember that so you don't think I'm completely a stubborn nut job, haha.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1audiohack View Post
    I certainly agree and love the magic of a 2123. A snare played full stick will nearly crack the enamel on your teeth and 2123 will replicate that better than any other cone driver I have ever had.

    Being as you already have plenty of linear overlap between the 2226's and 2360's that a single 2123 will play loud enough.

    Barry.
    Haha, 'crack the enamel on your teeth' is exactly what I'm after. ;D

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee in Montreal View Post
    "slight" is not enough, hence your decision to add a tweeter. The correction is of around 12db. When I am back from riding Mississippi, I'll give you a screenshot of the correction I did. For more details, I suggest you look into "CD correction"

    Start here http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...-install/page3
    Read the whole thread, sorry about modding your pix! You make beautiful boxes. Cool that you will share the settings. Not hell bent on using 2404, but as of right now the pendulum is tilting towards it. Still have a lot of work to do and didn't even measure as I said, so that has to be done. Do like the big sound that these horns project though. There has been thoughts about Truext Be too, any reason why you didn't try it? From the measurements on here it seems you get less hf output, but less ringing which must be good, especially when used in combination with a uhf driver?

    Quote Originally Posted by loach71 View Post
    Nice pix!

    DO you like the miniDSP? Any issues with them?
    LOL

    miniDSP is what it is, a super flexible and afforable step stone into active crossover and DSP for the noob. Sonically it's good enough for me, it lacks a display, is very unstable below 25 Hz when you run the 96kHz plugin due to rounding errors in the lower frequencies. It's more stable, but not perfect when running 48 khz plugin. This is important when you're setting your high pass filters, because the unstable filters will give you an overshoot, especially grotesque with steeper filters. Build quality is a little cheap, the software can be quirky sometimes. The lower models are very prone to noise judging from endless threads around the web. The 4x10 HD is also a bit prone to noise, but I'm using passive attenuators line level. You lose a bit of headroom, but a black background is worth it. Furthermore, the output impedance is rather high with 560 ohms. One positive thing is that you can correct things in real time, with other alternatives you have to upload a file everytime you make a change. Having two is a bit of a problem, since you can't operate them simultanously from the same PC. The software doesn't understand that you're trying to communicate with another device etc, but this is not an issue for most people as they're only using one.

    I have learned a lot by using miniDSP and REW. I would not be able to do things like this if it was not for this technology, so I'm very happy. That being said, I will eventually move over to a multi channel dac such as Antelope Orion 32 or Lynx Aurora 16 with a computer to make for even more control. There are options for EQ and filters using open source Equalizer APO under windows, or you can use proprietary software such as Audiolense XO to make FIR filters and use JRiver as a convolver. pos in here also made RePhase which can be used to make FIR filters manually. And he is giving it away for free.

    All in all, I think miniDSP 4x10HD is very good for the price, but as far as build quality and attention to detail (such as scalability with several units) it falls through a bit. The instability is also a concern, but the option is that they limit filters to around 20 Hz, and we don't want that. It's better to measure an output and try to extrapolate the correct settings while doing that, as the actual filter you get is not what you see in the GUI. The biquad filters are also awesome, for example if your doing a linkwitz transform or other custom filters. They will be in my system until I get a more advanced setup though, which won't be anytime soon, so yes, I think it's a great device. The company is also very professional in dealing with you.

    Woha, that turned out to be a ramble. Hope it makes sense... LOL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ivica View Post
    Hi DingDing, Why not 2242 + 2226+ 2123+ 2446&2360 +2405..... regards ivica
    Hi ivica.

    Seen the price of 2242 lately?

    I'm using four LMS Ultra 5400 from about 40-60 Hz and down, sealed. They are monsters and super ugly, but sq-wise they are amongst if not the best long throw drivers in the world according to many. Very happy with how they perform and they are faaar more than I need already. I think I'm covered there.

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    Senior Member Lee in Montreal's Avatar
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    Hey DingDing

    Try Google Translation on this one. Basically, the guy unplugged the 2123 for the lower medium range. Not needed. My suggestion is to keep it as sinple as possible. And only add a driver if you can't really do without. Pair of 2226 and 2360 shall be enough. ;-)

    http://www.melaudia.net/brufa1205-01.php


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    ^ Thank you for the resource, did read it. It may be a mistake to incorporate it, but can't resist trying seeing how easy it is to try as I have the drivers and miniDSP. In light of this the system will be modular with everything in separate enclosures so I can just remove or reorient different drivers depending on results. This way I can try many combinations.

    Reading online people seem pretty divided between multi way and 2-way. My experience with 4430 vs 4343 (w/2121h & 2235h) puts the latter on top by quite a margin, and that has been some of the inspiration behind the desire to incorporate many drivers. May even try to do something Everest and 4435 does, which is to put the LPF lower on one 2226 to up the sensitivity as frequency drops (as I understand it).

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    Senior Member audiomagnate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee in Montreal View Post
    Yes. You could run two 2226 and a single 2360. With proper eq, you won't really need a tweeter. Actually, if you like sizzling highs, then maybe you could use a different horn. Maybe a Yuchi 290 and couple it to a 2405.

    BTW Those 2226 needs some serious bumping around 40Hz (with Q = around 1.0) to get that nice round and deep bass. Get at least 5cft per driver.

    Keep this a two-way and you won't be disapointed. Your sub(s) will fill in foe the bottom octavle. It is what I do with my 2226 and 2360

    Lee

    PS Bass reflex tuned to 50Hz. Cross the 2226 at around 600-700Hz to the 2360. Use a 2445 as it was designed for the 2360.
    I disagree about being able to use EQ to negate the need of a tweeter. the dispersion just isn't there. It doesn't sound right at all to my ears.

  15. #15
    Senior Member 1audiohack's Avatar
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    The single pole low pass on a dual woofer system can be a good idea depending on several factors including the upper crossover point and the physical seperation of the drivers involved.

    If you have each woofer on a seperate DSP channel that you can also manipulate the delay between them you can really have some tuning fun.

    I think everyone should build a five way active system at least once but beware, if you don't have some measurement equipment and know how to use it, the probability for frustration seems to multiply by an order of magnitude with each element added.

    Barry.
    If we knew what the hell we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we.

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