Sean Olive Interview

[Robh3606]

Hi Rob,


Do l believe that Harman’s research or Klippel testing is an accurate prediction of what l or anyone else prefers in a loudspeaker choice. Slam dunk no. Olive was careful to admit that subjective assessment is very important.

Hello Ian

I think it's a step in the right direction. The last interface we all have to deal with, and in many cases live with, is what actually happens in our listening rooms. No amount of anechoic or quasi anechoic is going to predict what's going to happen there.

That will never change. Not going to address DSP based systems that can ping the room and adjust accordingly. Sticking to passive systems or actives without adjustable DSP.

Spinorama allows us to get an accurate DI curve. I think the DI curve is important WRT predictability of room interaction but it can't directly address where the room dominates.

It's a good predictor for imaging and overall upper balance.

That said I have Revel Perfoma F 206's, 308Mk 2's and a pair of 590's and enjoy them. I also have older JBL's done before L3's L5's L80T3's and L20T's that I also enjoy.

A pair or 4208's with the set back tweeter and sculptured baffle which I think are really nice speakers.

It's a mixed bag.

I prefer the newer systems but that's a personal preference and not universal.

Rob

[Ian Mackenzie]

It's a mixed bag.

I prefer the newer systems but that's a personal preference and not universal.

Rob

Hi Rob,

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I agree it is a mixed bag. I was purely looking at JBL Consumer on market share.

I think they have kind of left a few direct radiator systems reminiscent of for example the L100 in the current range. But the current iteration is quite expensive for a bookshelf system. Then look at say a replacement 4344 your looking at the 4367. I am talking a like for like capability in output and bandwidth.

In today’s dollars post Covid anything in that class of system is now 5 x the base manufactured wholesale cost. That is what the industry is calling it. Shipping is really expensive now. I understand it and get it when l do the math but it’s like JBL (Samsung) have repositioned their medium format systems as a Luxury Product to justify it. Who with regular jobs on dual incomes a mortgage un the current rates can justify a $20,000 loudspeaker system? If you’re in early retirement no way. Back in the 70’s JBL had the enclosure construction kit. You could buy the consumer drivers from the HiFi retailer. I remember seeing these drivers in the showrooms and think wow. In my case the bug bite me. A 136A was about $300 retail then. The 2231A was the same price as we bought a pair and still have them. Unfortunately the end MRRP has blown out in the finished JBL Consumer product in that class. I think that is a real barrier for any real mass switch over to the new systems like the 4367.

If l look at it historically JBL have really doubled down on their R&D more so in the last 20 years than before and with a change of ownership it’s a different business on the Consumer side. I think Samsung as the parent investment company really wants to see a healthy bottom line. So JBL Consumer as we knew it had to change.

I appreciate your love of Revel. But like many l am not backwards compatible after living with 15” system for 40 years.

[Robh3606]

Hi Rob,

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I agree it is a mixed bag. I was purely looking at JBL Consumer on market share.

I appreciate your love of Revel. But like many l am not backwards compatible after living with 15” system for 40 years.

Hello Ian

Thanks WRT Revel and 15" drivers?

Rob

[Ian Mackenzie]

Efficiency + Displacement = Bigger more real listening experience

[DerekTheGreat]

...like many l am not backwards compatible after living with 15” system for 40 years.

Efficiency + Displacement = Bigger more real listening experience

I too am no longer backwards compatible with small systems. Before the 813C's, I had only heard smaller format systems, typically a bookshelf two or three-way with a 6" or 8" driver with maybe a 10" subwoofer to compliment it. For nearly two decades, that was the standard I chased in pursuit of audio nirvana. The 813 took me by complete surprise. Now that I've lived with them, I'd never [willingly] go back. They've ruined every system I thought was good. I'm also a coax fan now too. I can't describe the difference in technical terms, but more life-like is what comes to mind. I'm listening to acts like Catie Curtis and Ani DiFranco just because I now appreciate their material's presentation out of the 813C's, whereas before I'd never actively listen to that stuff.

[Robh3606]

I too am no longer backwards compatible with small systems. Before the 813C's, I had only heard smaller format systems, typically a bookshelf two or three-way with a 6" or 8" driver with maybe a 10" subwoofer to compliment it. For nearly two decades, that was the standard I chased in pursuit of audio nirvana. The 813 took me by complete surprise. Now that I've lived with them, I'd never [willingly] go back. They've ruined every system I thought was good. I'm also a coax fan now too. I can't describe the difference in technical terms, but more life-like is what comes to mind. I'm listening to acts like Catie Curtis and Ani DiFranco just because I now appreciate their material's presentation out of the 813C's, whereas before I'd never actively listen to that stuff.

Hello Derek

Yeah it's odd the jump with 15" drivers. I have the same bass drivers as the your 813C in my active 4 way system E-145 and 2235's. They make a very nice combo with the snap of the E-145's and the weight of the 2235.

So it's a different sound for sure more tactile more energy in the room best way I can describe it.

Smaller systems have their place. I could never fit 15's in my livingroom where my Revels are. Even then they have a sub to do the "heavy lifting" which helps.

Rob

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hi Rob,

That makes a lot of sense. Glad you elaborated. There is no one size fits all. Not really.

Its really useful to understand how people approach the practicality of setting up a System. It simplifies the whole gamut of determining our loudspeaker needs on paper from an information gathering perspective.

There’s no point looking for the world if it won’t work correctly in your situation. All the global polar plots, consumer reviews and YouTube vids won’t describe your situation or your listening needs (as l outlined above).

That as one YouTube influencer said is purely for your entertainment. The truth is they aren’t doing it for you. They are making money on your subscription. It makes even less sense to take all that information and start debating it on a Forum attempting to reach a consensus. There’s no need for it. Opinions soon dissolve into facts and practical decisions once you apply your situation and your listening needs.

I’m not going to enter into discussions on Uber hi end components (mens jewellery).

The key is being self aware of your needs and what’s going to work in your situation. This cuts through all the noise floating around cyberspace.

If you can have two separate systems like Rob that’s a great way of accommodating different listeners needs. This can be then simplified down to some realistic and practical decisions. Yes there will be some compromises but they won’t significantly impact on your particular listening needs.

Let’s not forget that there are some work arounds like adding a sub(s) to fill out the bottom end of compact main loudspeakers. This take the load (heat dissipation) off the main system woofer voices and they perform like a more dynamic system. Heat buildup in a voice coil is the enemy of you aspire to life like sound reproduction.

[DerekTheGreat]

Hello Derek

Yeah it's odd the jump with 15" drivers. I have the same bass drivers as the your 813C in my active 4 way system E-145 and 2235's. They make a very nice combo with the snap of the E-145's and the weight of the 2235.

So it's a different sound for sure more tactile more energy in the room best way I can describe it.

Smaller systems have their place. I could never fit 15's in my livingroom where my Revels are. Even then they have a sub to do the "heavy lifting" which helps.

Rob

"Snap of the E-145's.." - I think you nailed it. The E-145 is rather magical to me and "snap" is a great term to describe them. Although the 813's use lowly 2215's. I have kicked around the idea of swapping 2235's in, but was told to keep the 2215's and enjoy the 813's as they are.

Agreed. As much as I'd love to have 813's downstairs where the TV is, I don't have the space. So 811C's stacked on top of subwoofers it is.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hello Ian

I think it's a step in the right direction. The last interface we all have to deal with, and in many cases live with, is what actually happens in our listening rooms. No amount of anechoic or quasi anechoic is going to predict what's going to happen there.

That will never change. Not going to address DSP based systems that can ping the room and adjust accordingly. Sticking to passive systems or actives without adjustable DSP.

Spinorama allows us to get an accurate DI curve. I think the DI curve is important WRT predictability of room interaction but it can't directly address where the room dominates.

It's a mixed bag.

Rob

I agree in that measurement approaches have advanced. To my mind it needs simplifying down from to how well a loudspeaker translates to a nirvana experience of a tune at home. It’s the inverse of what happens in the mixing and mastering of a tune. The recording engineer is only interested in how well it translates. Thats their terminology and l think it’s a good way of understanding a loudspeaker.

But in terms understanding what to measure and how to interpret it all and then applying it correctly is beyond any mortal music lover or HiFi enthusiast. For the average consumer and even a seasoned amateur loudspeaker builder it’s quite complicated with lots of variables and can end up being a snake chasing its tail for way too long.

So if the loudspeaker system translates what you like with the tunes you like to play that’s all that really matters.

Continued in my next post

[Ian Mackenzie]

Continuing from my last post -:

This whole business of measurements reminds me of the measurement race between amplifier brands back in the 1970’s. As we know what they were doing wasn’t well enough understood and it lead to a lot of controversy. The manufacturers then moved away from that approach to marketing. They got better and designing and manufacturing and we now have better amplifiers. It’s the same with PC’s. No body thinks about what CPU is in a PC these days. If you’re a hard core gamer it might be a consideration.

I think people can get too wrapped up in focusing on one facet of sound reproduction like imaging for example. Or they think they need everything perfectly correct and loose sight of what makes them really happy in their listening experiences. For example if they play genres like heavy rock, metal and so on then to translate correctly without too many errors the bass, the tonal balance, dynamics and the overall output has to competent. It also has to be resilient and reliable as a system.

That’s what drives the emotion connection. Does it need razor sharp imaging. Not at the expense of the other key attributes. The laws of Mother Nature always prevail.

This is where a well appraised subjective review that points to a particular recording is useful. The reviewer is translating to you their subjective listening experience.,Not all consumer reviews publish measurements. A well prepared consumer review is useful if your only option is to buy a system sight unseen.

On the other hand if you’re more interested in vintage analogue two mic recordings of a symphony orchestra then the translation of musical instruments as images with minimal errors is going to be key to your emotional enjoyment along with other key attributes.

But if you say l need a loudspeaker that translates imaging without too many errors then you need to understand what types of recordings and which genres are going to be translated? In other words the music lover has the responsibility to understand what it is they need in the translation and what types of recording are going to deliver that.

Popularising by media of a particular topic is a natural occurrence. But it isn’t necessarily a good thing if you don’t actually understand what’s important to you.

I’ve changed the narrative in this post because l believe there needs to be holistic understanding of the subject in order to make sense what you need out of the listening experience and the hobby.