Fried D130-f Help

[tcm]

Hi Everybody;
First I'd like to start off telling you what a great resource you have created. I've surfed through here many times for both referance and enjoyment .

Now my problem. I have a D130-f that seems to need reconing every month or two . The problem is always voice coil rub. The reconing is done by a local tech that has been both a JBL Pro-Audio dealer and service rep for over 30 years. He comes highly recomended and I don't think that he is the problem.

I use the speaker for bass guitar. I drive it with an older Fender Showman (85 watts RMS via vaccum tube). The speaker is mounted in a Fender tone ring cabinet (double baffle ported design).

Could my problem be from the voice coil bottoming out due to excess cone excursion? If that's the case would changing my cabinet to an infinite baffle decrease cone excursion enough to solve my problem? One reason I lean in this direction is that the same amp also took out an Altec 421-A that was mounted in a B15 cabinet (Thiele aligned port). That's another thread but it makes me wonder if a tighter cabinet would solve my dilema?
OR
Could the problem be that I'm getting the voice coil a little on the toasty side and it is warping? in which case adding another cabinet, or using a 2X15 cabinet in order to split the load?
Would anyone recomend upgrading to a D140-F or a E or K series? Would this significantly effect my sound and volume? In my limited understanding, isn't the reason I can get a workable stage volume from this rig because the D130-f is specifically engineered for this type of set up? Wouldn't an E or K series require more power to get the same volume? Wouldn't a D140-F have more mids? I Really like the sound of this set up if only it wouldn't blow .

Please be gentle with me.... I'm well aware that I'm a happy moron .
Thanks for reading.
Tim

[JBLROCKS]

Sounds like it would be a good time to talk to the guy doing the work....Get his opinion on what is happening. Without seeing the cone or coil it could be hard to say what is happening.

Just my 2 cents

[johnaec]

The D130F is really a guitar speaker, and using it for bass will really heat up the voice coil if you start pushing it. You definitely want a K140 or E140. While the efficiency rating on paper may be less than that of the D130F, that's because JBL rates the efficieny in different frequency bands, depending on the speaker's designed use. I guarantee both the K140 and E140 will put out substantially more volume than the D130F when used for bass, unless all you play are really high notes.

John, (also a bass player)

[tcm]

Sounds like it would be a good time to talk to the guy doing the work....Get his opinion on what is happening. Without seeing the cone or coil it could be hard to say what is happening.

Just my 2 cents

Thanks JBLRocks.... That's exactly what I plan on doing.... but it happened on a gig this weekend and I won't have a chance to talk w/ him until tomorrow or the next day .

Tim

[tcm]

The D130F is really a guitar speaker, and using it for bass will really heat up the voice coil if you start pushing it. You definitely want a K140 or E140. While the efficiency rating on paper may be less than that of the D130F, that's because JBL rates the efficieny in different frequency bands, depending on the speaker's designed use. I guarantee both the K140 and E140 will put out substantially more volume than the D130F when used for bass, unless all you play are really high notes.

John, (also a bass player)

Thanks John.... yeah I'm already sniffin' around on Ebay for a E or K140... the thing is... that for the bands/venues that I use this set up for, I really love the sound so I think I may have my tech do the forensics so we know why she's cooked. I do like to use my entire neck, but in reality 80% of the work I do I get payed to play down low and in the groove... bass player huh... then you know my pain....I'll be rollin around an SVT rig for small to medium venues till this ones fixed.... aaarrrggghh... I'm gettin' to old for this .
Thanks
Tim

[toddalin]

Thanks John.... yeah I'm already sniffin' around on Ebay for a E or K140... the thing is... that for the bands/venues that I use this set up for, I really love the sound so I think I may have my tech do the forensics so we know why she's cooked. I do like to use my entire neck, but in reality 80% of the work I do I get payed to play down low and in the groove... bass player huh... then you know my pain....I'll be rollin around an SVT rig for small to medium venues till this ones fixed.... aaarrrggghh... I'm gettin' to old for this .
Thanks
Tim

If you want to be a little different, maybe consider using a W15GTI. In my testing, I found that it kicks butt on the 2235 in my cabinet down at low E (40 Hz). It can also be used in a smaller cabnet. With 1.6" of cone travel, an 800 watt RMS rating and a 5,000 watt peak, it can probably take your abuse.
See my thread for the 2235 vs W15GTI in the DYI forum for test results. As I recall, it was on the order of 7 dB louder (relative to 160 Hz) at 35 Hz. You can pick them up new on ePay.

[tcm]

If you want to be a little different, maybe consider using a W15GTI. In my testing, I found that it kicks butt on the 2235 in my cabinet down at low E (40 Hz). It can also be used in a smaller cabnet. With 1.6" of cone travel, an 800 watt RMS rating and a 5,000 watt peak, it can probably take your abuse.
See my thread for the 2235 vs W15GTI in the DYI forum for test results. As I recall, it was on the order of 7 dB louder (relative to 160 Hz) at 35 Hz. You can pick them up new on ePay.

Thanks Tod, but I'm not overly convinced that my 85 watt showman would even move the cone on such a thumper .
Tim

[Tom Loizeaux]

Sure, have the voice coil checked to see why it failed, but the D130 was not designed for electric bass. It will hold up in low powered (50-85 watt) amps when used for guitar but, being so efficient, will get kicked even by those amps. A D140F was meant for electric bass amplificatuion in that single Showman cabinet. Though it sounds good, the surround is very flexible and won't take a lot of power.
For electric bass use at least a K140! Its a great sounding speaker, will have a voice similar to the D140F, and will be a little stronger when pushed.
An E140 is also good, and will take even more power, but some feel it needs a slightly larger cabinet to get the deep thump of the K140.
Hope this helps.

Tom
(pm me if you want an E140)

[boputnam]

(excerpted from an email of some years ago, exploring the D, E and K series...)

The D series goes way way back, to the late 40's early fifties. They changed very little over the years aside from a slightly wider gap in some models later in their life. The terminals did change as well. They used to be a threaded shaft with a piece that would thread down and pinch the wire in place. Later, we went to the push terminal.

The initial 12 inch device that we used for guitar applications was the D131. Recently, I ran into an unrelated question regarding another speaker from the same era, and due to our long history and several "ownership teams" over the 50 plus years of our history I had exhausted all of the current JBL resources and had to seek out the data elsewhere. I love the web for such things but of course you have to be careful because there is a lot of wrong information out there. I got very lucky and found a gentleman who worked here back in those days. He happened to be the "quality" guy back in those days. His name is Brian Gerst.

Brian explained to me that the D131's were failing in some unexpected ways in guitar applications. One little 12 watt solid state guitar amp was burning them with regularity. It turned out to be the first identified instance of "DC Burn" or a burn due to hard clipping. This was one of the first subjects on our old tech notes (they were called something different back then).

The second failure type was rubbing coils in many rear loaded guitar boxes. There was also some compliance deterioration due to exposure to the sun (guitar amps are transported more that other applications, I would assume). The rub was coming from either a slightly warped frame or baffle. Some times they would be fastened down with 8 nuts and screws. Any anomaly in frames or baffles would mis align the coil and cause the rub. They widened the gap for this problem and they applies a viscous substance to the compliance, at the time, only referred to as "goop". This took care of the both problems. This device became the D120F.

The K series actually came next. The best I can tell, they "began" in the middle seventies. It appears that to me that it was mostly a marketing endeavor that was actually repackaged D series with black paint. There were some differences in the cone kits but today the D, K an E series share repair kits. If you compare a D series to the corresponding K series with contemporary kits installed, they will sound the same. So if you are seeking that "vintage" sound, the K series is the "bargain" product because they have not become collectable. The plane D series would be a little more and the D series with the F (stood for Fender) are the most expensive. Interesting that three products that would function identically would be so different in price on the market. Collectors are funny people!

In the late seventies the rich cobalt that was required to build the Alnico V (aluminum, nickel and cobalt) became difficult if not impossible to obtain due to the political climate in an African nation (where Edi Amin was in power). We had to switch materials for our magnets. This impacted the larger low frequency devices first but eventually was carried over to all of our speaker elements. Primarily, we switched to Ferrite magnets. This is where the E series comes into the picture.

With ferrite you can achieve higher power handling with a similar weight device. This is the beginning of the end for our musical instrument lines of speakers. Through the 80's and 90's the power handling of our devices went up and up and up. Currently some of our best woofers have a power rating of 600 watts of pink noise, which equates out to 1200 watts continuous program. One of our 18's is rated at 800 pink/1600 continuos. The current highest level devices that we produce are made from Neodymium, about 1/3 the weight at the same high power specs. These pots are used in the Vertec touring gear.

I currently use one 2226H (woofer from the SR series) coupled with a 70's vintage Fender tube amp called the PS 300. It is the second highest power tube amp for guitar ever produced; 300 watts RMS./660 peak at 8 ohms. I can safely drive one of these with that amp (and it works well for bass and certain guitar applications). Unfortunately, there are not too many guitar amps capable of producing enough power to avoid burning the voice coils from the clipped signal.

The E series was discontinued in the spring of last year. We do not currently build a musical instrument specific line of speakers (alas).

This was fun! Thank you for the question.

[edgewound]

Hi tcm,


I'll agree with rest about the D130F not being designed a bass guitar speaker, but it sure sounds good, doesn't it?....before it blows, that is. The E130 recone kit will take 300 watts pink noise, freqeuncy range something like 50-6KHz....hows the magnet strength of your D130F motor? Do you play a 4,5 or 6 string bass? It's safest to use that speaker and/ or a D,K,E140 in a sealed enclosure when using it for bass guitar. The low E-string is about 41Hz and a low B-string is about 31Hz, so it's most definite that your unloading that D/E130 and driving the voice coil out of the gap.

Sounds like you're playing rather small combo gigs with your bass rig. An overstuffed sealed enclosure 3-4 cu ft will probably cure the problem. BTW....Eminence has come out with a Neo-magnet lightweight 10" with an aluminum cone sort of like they used to do for Hartke. 4x10" with these would sound killer for bass with no tweeter, and be pretty light weight.

[johnaec]

.... yeah I'm already sniffin' around on Ebay for a E or K140... the thing is... that for the bands/venues that I use this set up for, I really love the sound...

The sound won't be that much different, especially with the K140. I think you'd find you actually liked the sound of the K140 better - it's definitely got the low end of the D130 beat, but still has similar highs, due in part to the aluminum dust dome.

I'll tell you what - I've got a K140 here in mint shape - it's even got a factory E140 recone kit in it, (the current spec), so it's in perfect operating condition. I'll let it got for $125 plus shipping, (from CA), if you're interested. You may find a lower price on eBay, but it'd be hard to find a K140 in much better shape...

John

[edgewound]

The sound won't be that much different, especially with the K140. I think you'd find you actually liked the sound of the K140 better - it's definitely got the low end of the D130 beat, but still has similar highs, due in part to the aluminum dust dome.

I'm gonna risk sounding like the arrogant, SOB know-it-all that some members perceive me to be.

The D/K/E 130 vs. D/K/E 140 are totally different cones and voice coils so they sound totally different, with all due respect. The 130's freq range is 50Hz-6000Hz, the 140's is 40-2500Hz. The 130 reaches more than an octave higher, and is 5db more sensitive. I'd say that's different. I'm braced for the fallout....

[johnaec]

The 130's freq range is 50Hz-6000Hz, the 140's is 40-2500Hz. The 130 reaches more than an octave higher, and is 5db more sensitive.

The thing is, with bass, there are very few harmonics above 2500 hz, and I was also under the impression JBL rated their LF speakers' efficiency in a lower band - they definitely say as much on their pro series spec sheets. I still bet that for a given wattage, the K140 will pretty much equal the D130 from 40-50 hz.

John

[edgewound]

The thing is, with bass, there are very few harmonics above 2500 hz, and I was also under the impression JBL rated their LF speakers' efficiency in a lower band - they definitely say as much on their pro series spec sheets. I still bet that for a given wattage, the K140 will pretty much equal the D130 from 40-50 hz.

John

Hi John,

The thing is... with bass guitar...the harmonics of the instrument and amp don't stop at 2500Hz. You've got to consider the type of strings....most players use round wound thesedays....the type of pickups, passive or active with EQ , the wood or composite of the body/neck, the type of amp...slap and pop technique, fingers, pick....list list goes on. Most current Bass guitar amp systems use a tweeter to accentuate the highs.

[tcm]

Thanks for all the help.

Yeah that speaker does sound great....especially right before it goes south (LOL). 'Taint no old wives tail... On gigs where it's gone poof, people have even comented to that effect, And I'd be thinking 'cool' the cones startin' to loosen up and then .
You're right I use this set up specifically for 100 seaters and under, or low stage volume larger venues into FOH. I just love it for those applications. Only 4 string for this amp... I do play 5str, but into modern full range gear.
Yeah.... You guys have sold me...I'm still going have my tech do a post mortum on my D130, but I think the outcome will be to upgrade to a K140...
I think for the time being I may stick w/ my ported enclosure... I think...hmmm....
Thanks'
Tim