Suitable replacement for BX63A?

[Robh3606]

More fun:
Also possible to use both BX63A sub outputs (to get the Y out of the variables). just swap the sub's speaker lead (plus to minus or red to black) on amp channel connected to the BX63's "-" output channel.

Faulty speaker (e.g., voice coil), or loose-ish connection in it's cabinet (terminal panel to driver)?

Certainly tough diagnosing via email.

LOL yes it is!!

Rob

[1audiohack]

Hi Rusty, Derek and All;

Rusty I hear what you are saying.

Derek has had a very long string of troubles and I don’t have an answer and it puzzles me.

I bought three Crown K series amps from Derek. Knowing that they had issues I asked him to send then straight to AE Techron for repair before they came to me. All three of them had a one channel failure that required repair. If I recall but am not certain, I think all three had lost the same side. That seems a little less than sheer coincidence.

I once had a iPhone cable that you could bend and turn the bass off while the rest of the music played on. Weird and kinda fun for a minute or two.

I am not blaming the cross over and I can’t see any correlation with the house having a primary wiring issue but it seems like something is really going on there.

Barry.

[DerekTheGreat]

Exercise every switch in the crossover. Load, in and out ect. I have had channels drop out and be intermittent from a dirty mute switch so look simple first.

Are you using the 1/4 plugs on the PS-400 Try rotating them to see if you hear noise. If you do power down and plug and unplug and rotate to clean the contacts. Had one channel drop in level dirty contacts in the 1/4 plug.

Rob

More fun:
Also possible to use both BX63A sub outputs (to get the Y out of the variables). just swap the sub's speaker lead (plus to minus or red to black) on amp channel connected to the BX63's "-" output channel.

Faulty speaker (e.g., voice coil), or loose-ish connection in it's cabinet (terminal panel to driver)?

Certainly tough diagnosing via email.

I give up.

Derek, you can call me to help troubleshoot this if you don't get it worked out here.

Thank you for all the responses, fellas.

So I got to work, here's what I found after a lot of testing:

The system appears to functioning normally now. I think Rob's idea of exercising all the switches in the system did something. However, one of the first things I did was use the AudioTool application on my phone to generate (what I believe to be..) an even signal to the SR-II (Sub amp). I hooked it up straight to the amp, taking everything else out of the chain. Left channel showed up as weak. Hmm. I then hooked up the tone generator to the PS-200, it was also weak on the left channel! Well, as indicated by the signal (IOC) lights on the amp. Didn't notice anything by my ears.

I then started messing with the BX63A. I like grumpy's idea! Can't believe I never thought of that, genius. I then used both the normal and inverted sub output while everything else was hooked up normally. Still the left channel came up as weak. For all the testing in this paragraph, I was feeding my phone through an auxiliary input on my preamp. I tried using the Y-splitter off the inverted sub output, no change. I tried then just running the subs off the main output of the BX63A, in normal mode and then bypass mode of the BX. Left channel still showing up weak. (I used a 200hz tone when running off the main output, 60hz when using the sub output of the BX) Somewhere in there, I noticed the surround for one of the 2215H's has deteriorated.

I then tested the stack of PS amps I've got in the spare room. Two PS400's and one PS200. I hooked them up directly to the phone as I did with the amplifiers driving the 813C's and 2245H's. It's a 3.5mm jack to RCA using 1/4" adaptors. It was hard to make heads or tails, but those seemed as if their left channel could be weak as well. WTF? I would've tried to drive them such that the clip lights came on to see if they did so simultaneously, but the phone's output just doesn't have enough jam to do that. If I wasn't lazy, I could've drug out the spare preamp I've got. Meh.

At this point, I'm questioning the source, my phone. Maybe it's screwed up?

So I go back to the stack powering the UREI's & company. I use the pink noise feature on the equalizer, an Audio Control C101 series III. Output still shows as weak on the left side. WTF does this even tell me???? Now I'm semi near insanity, perhaps if it all wasn't so heavy, I'd drag it outside in the front yard and light it all on fire. Meh, once I calmed down I'd be sad.. Argh. I start mashing all the buttons on the preamp, equalizer and then foopsy-foo'in the level knobs on the Crown amps until I feel satisfied. I put it back on pink noise and just use the level knob on the SR-II until I get the level equal between left and right. I then decide to jam the system and test for voltage drop at the outlets of the Furman S-8 switcher thing. At low volume I identified my control, 120.5ish volts. Ok, lets throw some Rob Zombie on there, that'll piss it all off. Meh, even when SoundGarden came on, the most I saw the voltage dip down to was 115.x. It mostly stayed between 119 & 118.x when jamming to the point of clip light flicker.

At this point I put on my defeatist pants. Came back into the room about twenty minutes later and noticed that the right channel (sub) was now weak. Huh? So I then adjusted the level knob on the right side to match the left side, 100% clockwise. They're now playing evenly. I'm at a damn loss, feel like I'm chasing a problem which doesn't exist.

Edit: Should I call an elechicken? What would they even do? Should I just suck it up and have two dedicated 20A outlets added to the wall? How invasive is that? I don't want them tearing out drywall and all that (Hell, I've got plaster walls) and can't actually afford that. Goddamn stupidly expensive hobbies...
@ rusty, Thanks man, I appreciate you offering your time to help me out. I'm trying to collect as much data over here before I pester you.

[Ian Mackenzie]

More fun:
Also possible to use both BX63A sub outputs (to get the Y out of the variables). just swap the sub's speaker lead (plus to minus or red to black) on amp channel connected to the BX63's "-" output channel.

Faulty speaker (e.g., voice coil), or loose-ish connection in it's cabinet (terminal panel to driver)?

Certainly tough diagnosing via email.

Great response

[Ian Mackenzie]

Have you thought about running the subs in parallel of one channel of one of your power amps and checking the results?

Just wondering.

I admit this sort of problem would drive me bonkers

[DerekTheGreat]

Update:

I went back and rechecked the output of all of my amplifiers at the binding posts (no speakers connected), this time with a voltmeter. Using a 200hz test tone generated by AudioTool on my phone running at full output hooked directly up to each amp. I set the level or gain knobs on each amp at 100%, or full clockwise. Here's what I found:

1) Each PS-200 measured about 11.2V on each channel.

2) Each PS-400 measured about 11.3V on each channel. NOTE***
NOTE: I discovered that the input for channel 2 (right) on the PS-400 that I sent in for that very channel being weak and then sent back in for warranty for the same issue drifts. Initially, the voltage was constantly fluctuating between 10.3-11.2ish volts. I was able to get it to read steady by wiggling the cable and then removing it and sticking it back in. When I got it stop drifting, I was able to get a reading comparable with the other channel(left). I don't know how the tech didn't find this. I'm an idiot and did so within three minutes. I also don't know what I need to do to fix it. However, I'm thinking that since I only need input 1 (left) to run the thing in mono mode, I might just leave it alone. Also worth noting I would've tried my MOD/X adaptor to see if there was a difference in output between XLR & 1/4" phone jack input, but couldn't find it.

3) The SR-II measured 10.94V on the left channel, 20.56V on the right channel. I swapped left and right cables with no change in the output voltage. I then ran a different set of cables from my phone to the XLR input on the SR-II, output voltage was exactly the same.. So, based on the 11ish volts I got from the PS amps, I'm thinking the left channel on the SR-II is OK and that there is something wrong with the right channel, given how high it's voltage is. Not sure what to make of that, but I pulled it and have replaced it with the PS-400 whose inputs are not wonky.

Anyway, looks like I've found the problem, my poor SR-II. Turning out to be an expensive little bugger. Thinking that since I've got four PS amps I'll just run them as intended in bridge mode and leave the SR on the shelf. What say you fellas?

[1audiohack]

Hi Derek;

What PIP card is in the SRII? If you told me, I forgot.

Many PIP cards are programmable with crossovers, compressors, limiters and EQ. You could quickly re-run your voltage tests at say 60Hz and 1KHz to see if you are dealing with a crossover.

There is also a list of PIP cards that should not have the 1/4” amp inputs used as inputs. I will find that.

Barry.

[Robh3606]

Update:

I went back and rechecked the output of all of my amplifiers at the binding posts (no speakers connected), this time with a voltmeter. Using a 200hz test tone generated by AudioTool on my phone running at full output hooked directly up to each amp. I set the level or gain knobs on each amp at 100%, or full clockwise. Here's what I found:


2) Each PS-400 measured about 11.3V on each channel. NOTE***
NOTE: I discovered that the input for channel 2 (right) on the PS-400 that I sent in for that very channel being weak and then sent back in for warranty for the same issue drifts. Initially, the voltage was constantly fluctuating between 10.3-11.2ish volts. I was able to get it to read steady by wiggling the cable and then removing it and sticking it back in. When I got it stop drifting, I was able to get a reading comparable with the other channel(left). I don't know how the tech didn't find this. I'm an idiot and did so within three minutes. I also don't know what I need to do to fix it. However, I'm thinking that since I only need input 1 (left) to run the thing in mono mode, I might just leave it alone. Also worth noting I would've tried my MOD/X adaptor to see if there was a difference in output between XLR & 1/4" phone jack input, but couldn't find it.


Anyway, looks like I've found the problem, my poor SR-II. Turning out to be an expensive little bugger. Thinking that since I've got four PS amps I'll just run them as intended in bridge mode and leave the SR on the shelf. What say you fellas?

Hello

That is exactly the same issue I had on my PS-400. If it continues you can always use the hardwire inputs instead.

Well with the other??? Never used one. Hope you can figure it out without having to service.

Rob

[DerekTheGreat]

Hi Derek;

What PIP card is in the SRII? If you told me, I forgot.

Many PIP cards are programmable with crossovers, compressors, limiters and EQ. You could quickly re-run your voltage tests at say 60Hz and 1KHz to see if you are dealing with a crossover.

There is also a list of PIP cards that should not have the 1/4” amp inputs used as inputs. I will find that.

Barry.

Hey Barry,

It's an FX, seems like a bare-bones model. Ok, will do.

So you're saying I should invest in RCA to XLR cables? On that note, know anyone who is selling MOD/X adaptors for a reasonable price, say $50/pop?

Hello

That is exactly the same issue I had on my PS-400. If it continues you can always use the hardwire inputs instead.

Well with the other??? Never used one. Hope you can figure it out without having to service.

Rob

Hi Rob,

Hmm, can't say that I want to cannibalize the nice Roland cables I've got for that single amp. What if I just run the amp in bridge mode? That only requires channel 1's input. That dude is fine, rock solid. (So far....)

That would be great, but would also be contradictory to my luck haha.


...This has me wondering though. Is it possible for a woofer to kill amplifiers? How do I test my 2245H's to verify they are in good health or not? Like Barry said the other day, it is very peculiar that every amp which has run my subs for a month or more has had some sort of failure, always on the right channel.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hi Derek,

Barry makes a good observation.

You could do an impedance test (with a Dayton Audio analyser ) and a dcr test with a basic multi meter

But it could conceivably by an intermittent short in the speaker cabling, the amp terminals or the tinsel braids under the driver terminals. If you are using stranded copper wire this is a likely theory.

[1audiohack]

Hi Derek;

I haven’t found my list of PIP cards but found this in the SR manual:

If you install a P.I.P. module other than the P.I.P.-FX, P.I.P.-BB, P.I.P.-FMX or P.I.P.-FPX, do not connect in- put signals to the phone jacks. The phone jacks are in parallel with the output of the P.I.P. module, so the source connected to the phone jacks can feed into the P.I.P. and generate a distortion in the output. The phone jacks can still be used as “daisy chain” outputs to feed the post-processed signal from the P.I.P. to the input of other amplifiers.

I’m not sure at this point but I don’t think the FX card has any process features and it looks like you should be able to hook it up anyway you please at least.

Barry.

[DerekTheGreat]

Which analyzer would I want from Dayton?

Perhaps I'm trying to push too much juice through the tiny solid core wiring everything is wired with? It's about the same gauge as angel hair pasta. Being that my dad has used 18ga or similar for 30+ ft runs for decades with no consequence, I never thought to change it. Then again, he isn't trying to power things with 300+ watts RMS. Buut, I like the way everything sounds, so what would happen if I rewired the system with stranded stuff?

[Ian Mackenzie]

I suspect that that one channel is seeing an intermittent short. Its protection kicks in and the power output drops. But the amp eventually fails.

So have a careful look at this cable for missing insulation. Check the terminals for shorts and the cabling inside the sub. The woofer may have a problem. Simply do a dcr check and move the cone in and out.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Edited

I shared a few thoughts with Derek on a potential (new) replacement of the original BX63

If your in the dsp domain with your signal path then perhaps a Minidsp solution might satisfy your needs.

If your signal path is in the analogue domain then something like what l have thought about below may be useful update.

It’s a tool box in that it has different applications and modes of operation.

Proposed revision of the BX63A

- Balanced and unbalanced connections to eliminate most hum issues

- Much improved electronics and construction.
- Class A biased and buffered op amps for pristine sound quality.

-LCD display of output levees via a rotary encoder controller to a 100 position precision analogue stepped attenuator in 0.5 db increments.

- A pre set mode for the B380 and B460 subwoofers

-A mode for adjusting of both the woofer and the main loudspeaker crossover frequency range for a diy sub. This could also make it a breakout box to convert an existing two way passive loudspeaker or bi amp active loudspeaker to a three way system. (Augmented LF two way)

- A mode for adjusting of the kind of boost needed for other main monitors like the 4367 not needing a separate subwoofer. So it adds a bump in the bass without a sub as a pass through device with Bass EQ.

- LF boundary compensation EQ switch (3 position)

Just a few thoughts.


Edited
If you were wondering the add on 3 way mode would connect to the Low output of an existing active crossover and split the Low band into a Low and mid bass or mid band.

The frequency range and slopes of the crossover point is yet to be determined but likely to be 65-300 hertz. This would enable improved LF linearity of a modest bookshelf shelf two way system or a larger efficient two system with limited LF Xmax or a relatively high Fb in the 38-45 hertz range and a helper woofer was desirable. Example the Urei systems, the 4435 and the DD67000 where the additional woofer makes a significant impact on the system LF capability.

Similarly if the diy project loudspeaker builder wanted to add a super tweeter to his/her two way system without all the hubba of updating the passive network an HF Power Pack (pinching JBLs namesake) could be devised along the lines of the LF breakout box.

Note: The use of the JBL STX wave guides is popular in some diy user groups but these wave guides have limited capabilities below 1000 hertz without access to dsp EQ. A larger main horn with extension to 500-650 hertz is very desirable but typically requires a super tweeter to round out the system voicing and improve HF dispersion (air).

The output of the receiver or pre amp is the input to the break out box. The main passive system frequency band is split into two bands with a LP filter on the main output and a HP output for the super tweeter. The outputs drive the inputs of seperate power amplifiers. Some HF EQ adjustments may be incorporated for REW users. Likewise for extending a 2 way active system to 3 way active operation using 3 separate power amps.

As we know the tonal balance & clarity and air of the HF region adds significantly to the listening experience. (For the diy audio amateurs with existing legacy systems or project loudspeaker builders)

Alternatively the breakout box could be used as a pass through device with adjustable HF EQ to fine tune the HF response of a passive two way system.

The point of these step-up product concepts is to enable the user to engage in taking small steps to advancing the performance of their system rather than putting up with it or throwing the baby out with the bath water and starting over.

[DerekTheGreat]

I suspect that that one channel is seeing an intermittent short. Its protection kicks in and the power output drops. But the amp eventually fails.

So have a careful look at this cable for missing insulation. Check the terminals for shorts and the cabling inside the sub. The woofer may have a problem. Simply do a dcr check and move the cone in and out.

Alrighty. So, hook my multimeter up to the woofer and check resistance as I push the cone in? How much deviation from 8ohms is acceptable? (EDIT: just saw the spec sheet for the 2245H, 7.1ohms +/-10% @ 25 degrees C is the minimum acceptable impedance.)

Thank you for the input, I appreciate it.