How is the 4367?

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hello Ian

Yes and getting room modes mixed in with crossover settings is just asking for trouble.

An excellent book! In case you didn't realize it is available. I have it on a tablet. Got it back in 2016! Might need updates should probably ask he is on the forum!

https://www.amazon.com/Accurate-Soun...s%2C106&sr=8-1


Rob

One thing l think is useful is some sort of bass tone control much like a Blaxandell design that is progressive. Douglas Self a UK audio electronics engineer has perfected the design of a very low noise and distortion tone control. Douglas Self was the head of engineering at Soundcraft Mixing Consoles for many years. He now consults to HiFi manufacturers.

The same for a treble control. It’s a simple but intuitive control that a user can adjust to their liking without it becoming confusing like a graphic EQ. In nearly all situations a system may need more or less bass depending on the placement of the enclosures. With the treble the same applies depending on room furnishings and wall surfaces.

The modest use of both the bass and treble can approximate a room curve. But for a plug ln and make it go user the initiative approach of listening is much more straightforward.

Unfortunately pre amps rarely have tone controls.

[Robh3606]

Hello Ian

Yeah what happened??? You used to get so much more selection back in the 80's??? I have a couple of older Technics. One is the SU-A6 which is a class A preamp.

You have sub-bass. shelving bass tone controls, stereo/mono, loudness, Ballance and MM/MC selectable loading on both 2 separate cartridge inputs. High and low filters!!

Getting long in tooth but it sure sounds great!

That was all standard how did we loose all that?? I guess the push to ultra simplicity robbed us.

Rob

[Mr. Widget]

Analog or digital... that IS the question.

Complex filters get pretty messing in the analog domain and multiple analog gain stages can get noisy, yet even fairly inexpensive DSP systems are extremely powerful and potentially invisible sounding. The principle point of view over at ASR (Audio Science Review) is that all competently designed and manufactured digital audio devices should have no sound of their own and most of our opinions to the contrary are due to sighted bias.

I am tending to agree with that sentiment and to that end intend to create a simple test that I can conduct in a blind/double blind fashion to see if I or others can reliably hear the difference of an A/D to D/A with integral DSP processing vs. a reasonable facsimile of SOTA analog.

I intend to insert a digital pre/pro set to flat response and unity gain into my 100% analog Mark Levinson signal chain. It will be a little time before I conduct the experiment as I have yet to order/borrow the device. It will likely be a Lyngdorf MP40 2.1. The plan would be to route the same source through an analog input of my stripped down "ultra simplicity" (i.e. no tone controls) Mark Levinson preamp and also run the same signal through the Lyngdorf.

The Mr. Widget of a few years ago was certain that the 100% analog signal would yield superior audible performance... the Mr. Widget of 2023 is not so sure.

I will report back once the comparisons have been made.


Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

Edited to update and add content

Hi Rob,

That’s worthy of another thread.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Not to offend anyone but to the nay sayers of analog its like saying your bandwidth or understanding of the recording process is perhaps limited.

Today automated API and Neve analogue mixing consoles are still revered in top recording studios by artists and engineers alike. Mastering engineers still use Manly Pultec EQ (of anything). Some of it comes down to artistic preferences and some of it comes down to not being able to do it any other way and they mix the best recordings. The very best engineers still prefer the workflow in the automated API analogue consoles. These engineers work for artists that have sold more albums than anyone else.

Referring to this list many top engineers have a foot in both camps of analogue and digital process and mixing. Many of these processes are far more elaborate than a tone control or a set of filters. An API mixer is shown in this link

https://www.apiaudio.com/product.php?id=148&p=33

https://mixchecks.com/best-mixing-engineers/

Bob Clearmountain

Chris Lord-Alge

Manny Marroquin

Tony Maserati

Tom Lord-Alge

Phil Tan


https://www.manley.com/pro/msmp

So when a hifi buff says oh l must have a minimalist preamp and signal path aren’t they just being precious out of their own ignorance about how their favourite recording was made?

On the topic of tone controls l would suggest that the cost of manufacture and profit in the hifi industry since the hey day of mass market hifi in the 1970’s has been the marketing lever for minimalist expensive hifi equipment.

Putting it simply if the marketer tells the precious hifi market that minimalist is better they will pay anything for it.

None of this post is intended to offend. If you want to believe something that is your choice. On the floodplain of complexity we live in today quite often nothing is ever what it seems when you look right into it.

[sebackman]

Hey Widget,

We should probably make a new thread on your DSP endeavor.

I have had the opportunity to test many DSP and nowadays they are silent if used correctly.

The problem people often encounter manifests mainly with analogue input. The ADC is the hard part to get right. DAC's are cheap now. If DSP's would be "audible" none of todays studio monitors should work or at least get unfavorable reviews. They are all digital internally.

Now the problem in doing a fait A/B testing is that the ADC do need quite high level on the input to have "enough" signal to reduce quantification noise and get a decent S/N. That will require that signal internally are monitored so no overdrive occurs. In the BSS that is never a problem as they are 41bit FP with at least +20db headroom. Anyway the next issue will be to make certain that the level out from the DSP and into the ML will give you the same speaker volume as "direct" signal (ie analogue). Even a very small level shift is detectable.

And I concur with the ASR team (been hanging there for a few years) that the new digital stuff is amazing at very competitive costs. 20 years ago the best analogue was hard to surpass. 10 years ago some digital stuff was as good as analogue. Now digital is better than most analogue. I don't like to say that but its they way it is.

Someone here once said; "You either like the M2's or you are wrong"... Today it is the same with high quality digital.

Now if you want to take your DSP unit out of the equation of sound quality, you use a BSS DSP with digital input and output cards and just add you favorite DAC. A topping D10B DAC is probably better than most High End units even if it only cost $100. Evolution.


Kind regards
//Rob

[Mr. Widget]

We should probably make a new thread on your DSP endeavor.

Good point.
When I set this up I will create a new thread specifically for the topic.


Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

I have posted some insightful links to interviews with recording engineers who’s careers have spanned analogue, modern digital and Atmos.

Perhaps the most revealing aspect of these interviews is just how articulate these engineers are in describing the subtle approaches to creating what we take for granted on a recording. When you hear a comparison of these techniques you appreciate the role of the studio monitor. While most engineers use nearfield monitors today it’s an important part of JBL’s legacy. Back in the 1970’s when JBL were making inroads into the recording industry engineers were innovative in finding new approaches to bringing recordings to life with analogue effects processing using analogue mixing consoles and tape machines. Large SSL and API analogue consoles are still much of that process today. According to Mix magazine’s there is a trend for engineers to use both analogue and digital processing to obtain “that sound” for many artists, producers and record labels.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradmoo...-and-more/amp/

On the consumer sound reproduction front it’s no surprise that consumers awareness of analogue sound in recordings is driving massive growth in high quality turntable sales.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=tOB5TBaU...GI9q07GXt-7NU-

https://youtube.com/watch?v=lPfqh75w...iau78izkq69F-R

https://youtube.com/watch?v=WYElkX6n...54KZ7y_rsbAINg


Today Bob Clearmountain is collaborating with Apogee Digital to develop plug-ins based on Bob’s ability to create incredible recordings for numerous famous artists such as David Bowie, Chic, Roxy Music, The Rolling Stones and Bruce Springsteen.

https://apogeedigital.com/

[paulgyro]

Guys, lately I've been looking at the 4367's, they get generally very favorable reviews but I just don't feel them (judging by the looks alone and materials used) at their price. My heart rate only seems to rise from stuff like old 434x and I'd actually like a pair of TAD 2401/2402 or the TSM-1/2 but they are getting unobtainium and and AFAIK are a boat anchor (too big for a doorstop ) if a unit goes bad. How would the 4367 stack up against those big TAD's with 4001's? Are they still much better than JBL? One would think at 3 times the used price, they'd better be.

I'll share my story with the 4367 from Jul 2022."The other day I want to my local Revel dealer, US Tube Audio in Scottsdale, AZ. I was able to listen to the F208, F228Be, and the JBL 4367.I thought I'd share my impressions.F208: Sounded fine to me, good low end, midrange sounded natural, top end was nice, over all nothing special.F228Be: Sounded better to me, less low end but more defined maybe, midrange the same, top end seemed more defined to me. Most likely as a result of the Be tweeter?So, I wasn't super impressed with either, not to point where I was willing to pull out my wallet. I thought it might just be a crappy room.Next up the JBL 4367. From the moment the music started my jaw was on the floor. Everything sounded real, alive, in the room. The acoustic guitars, clarinets, vocals, you name it sounded amazing, accurate, and life like. Bass was amazing and tactile. It ran circles around the Revels while still having great tone, clarity and smoothness.Unfortunately, they were out of F328Be and Salon2 so I couldn't compare.Has anyone else experienced this? Is it the horn loaded compression driver that is crossed over at 700 Hz that gives it the life like sound? The high sensitivity? Both? I'm curious but I've got to know at this point as I've got to have speakers that do this, but I can't afford the $16k!"I was so impressed and couldn't afford the $16k I'm currently designing a 4367 inspired 2-way, horn loaded 1.4" CD crossed over at 800 Hz with a light 15" woofer in a cabinet that is about half the size of the 4367 (it's big) BUT it will have the same f3. Total cost will be about $3k. I can't wait!Paul

[paulgyro]

Stereophile was impressed with their "jump factor" but really not much else, and certainly not their soundstage. And while they improved after 3 weeks, he never notes what aspects "great" refers too. ListeningMy first three weeks of listening to the JBLs were pretty miserable. They sounded rhythmically disjointed, grayish, soft, bass shy, and so incapable of creating a soundstage that I at first thought I had connected them out of phase. This confused me, because the Harman rep had informed me that these were demo units, presumably with many hours of use. Yet, after about 200 hours of play, the 4367s had improved dramatically, and after 300 they began to sound great. I later learned that the pair I received had only a few hours on them. Mystery solved.As expected, the big JBLs proved remarkable in their ability to play (very) loudly. Almost every speaker and amplifier combination reaches a point where you know to back off the volume control: The music begins to sound disorganized and strident, or it starts to compress, with the quiet parts getting louder but the loud parts remaining the same. Driven by a sufficiently powerful amplifier, the 4367s reached that point at appreciably higher volumes than any speaker I've heard in my home. I took advantage of this dynamic headroom to enjoy music that sounds best loud. Played at a plate-rattling volume I hadn't attempted before, the opening percussion on "Five Man Army" from Massive Attack's Blue Lines (16/44.1 rip from Virgin TOCP-53870), a record that has lost none of its rousing, innovative charge, sounded intensely satisfying and yet completely composed.https://www.stereophile.com/content/...or-loudspeakerhttps://www.stereophile.com/content/...speaker-page-2

From the measurements I've seen this thing doesn't compress even at 102 db. Who knows at what point it compresses but this thing has more dynamics then anything I've heard.

[DerekTheGreat]

...So when a hifi buff says oh l must have a minimalist preamp and signal path aren’t they just being precious out of their own ignorance about how their favourite recording was made?...

This was me. Picked that up from the older folks who were kind enough to give me some pointers as I was starting out in my audio journey. 'Yeah, less is better! Everything I add to the chain just muddies the waters, I want to hear it just as it was recorded!" I wasn't paying attention to specs, never mic'd my own system to see it's true response and thus had no idea what I was doing. A good equalizer is a friend indeed.

I'll share my story with the 4367 from Jul 2022."The other day I want to my local Revel dealer, US Tube Audio in Scottsdale, AZ. I was able to listen to the F208, F228Be, and the JBL 4367. I thought I'd share my impressions:

-F208: Sounded fine to me, good low end, midrange sounded natural, top end was nice, over all nothing special.
-F228Be: Sounded better to me, less low end but more defined maybe, midrange the same, top end seemed more defined to me. Most likely as a result of the Be tweeter?
-JBL 4367. From the moment the music started my jaw was on the floor. Everything sounded real, alive, in the room. The acoustic guitars, clarinets, vocals, you name it sounded amazing, accurate, and life like. Bass was amazing and tactile...

...So, I wasn't super impressed with either [F208 / F228Be], not to point where I was willing to pull out my wallet. I thought it might just be a crappy room.
[The JBL 4367] ran circles around the Revels while still having great tone, clarity and smoothness... ...Has anyone else experienced this? Is it the horn loaded compression driver that is crossed over at 700 Hz that gives it the life like sound? The high sensitivity? Both? I'm curious but I've got to know at this point as I've got to have speakers that do this, but I can't afford the $16k!... Paul

The room is a huge player, that's for sure. So is the equipment used and the signal source. Doubt it's the "high" sensitivity of the 4367, (Seeing as I'm used to 101dB, 94 is a bit low to me, but seems high by today's standards.) but they do have a bit of an edge over the F208 (88.5dB - WOW, yuck! So bad they thought the extra '0.5' was worth including) and the F228Be (90dB - Also yuck.) After my quest to comfortably achieve SPL peaks of 125dB, which lead me to dump my XPL200's, anything under 91dB won't cut it for me outside of home theater. Even with 600 watts a side at either of those Revels and you're still only going to tickle ~118dB. We've mentioned compression, but I haven't seen a spec for the SPL capabilities/limits of those Revels or 4367's, hmmm.. At some point, I'd expect the dome systems to run out of steam before the 4367. I mean, could a 1" Be dome really be that great, much less an aluminum one when compared against a 3" compression driver? Based on my experience with my 1" compression drivers, 3" is massive, although I'm not sure if they're necessary as I haven't listened to any compression driver that was over 1". I have yet to notice any compression or subtraction to sound quality with my UREI 813C's, they sound just as great at ~85dB as they do at 120. UREI's are a great alternative to spending $16k.

Side note: I never knew the dual 8" driver + midrange & tweeter would still be a thing today. My crappy JBL E90's sport that configuration as well and were made some twenty years ago. Goes to show that with market-wanka-teering, anything old is new again when you play dress-up. "Why yes, Billy Preston, it will go around in circles, but I don't see this pig flyin' high."

[Ian Mackenzie]

A lot of consumer HiFi electronics was bad in terms of transparency in the 70’s and 80’s as they hadn’t mastered how to make something solid state sound good. Carver was putting TL072’s in his preamps which are woeful by today’s standards. Stuff was simply done to a price. Only in the HK Citation, Mark Levinson and the likes of Threshold did you get discrete class A circuits. The difference is not subtle with a suitably matched source. With highly analytical/ transparent loudspeakers like the 4367 and the M2 drivers this makes a difference to listening fatigue. Same with any compression driver because it’s virtually piston range diaphragm action up to 3000-5000. This means in the critical 2000 hertz region you are going to hear the worts and all out of your source and signal path. Power amps are the worst culprits at adding electronic glare. JBL has made a point of damping their diaphragms in higher end systems to reduce this live character in their systems.

If you are running an analogue system try and find the Hafler 101 preamp. It was one of the best budget preamps in the heyday of hifi.

Those opamps like the TL 072 and the 741 were what inspired the innovation of discrete high drive class A opamp modules in the studio consoles. These opamps can sink and source 30 milliamp class A into 600 ohm impedances without loss of sound quality. They are in a different league to a hifi preamp. But those consoles incredibly costly. A TL 072 only has a fraction of a milliamp drive so they only work properly into 10,000 -50,000 ohm impedances which are also noisy. The most recent opamps are better because they use sophisticated distortion cancelling systems but with the exception of the expensive LM4562 they won’t drive a 600 ohm load impedance.

A discrete implementation of an Opamp or an amplifier with gain is superior because critical components like high quality capacitors can be carefully positioned in the feedback loop to improve the closed loop feedback margin in the audio band. Similarly the output stage can be implemented so it doesn’t heat up the whole die like it does in a monolithic 8 pin integrated circuit. This is why monolithic opamps operate in class B which is the least favourable mode for audio. Hifi manufacturers like low current circuits because they can economise on the power supply. Low value electrolyte coupling capacitors to reduce parts cost are another source of distortion due to the voltage drop across the capacitor in the pass band.

A well designed Hifi product with use either discrete audio circuits or quality monolithic opamps in parallel to improve noise and distortion performance.

[sebackman]

DerekTheGreat, JBL M2 is capable of about 123db with limited power compression and there is no reason to think 4367 will produce less as they use very similar setup (sans the passive filter that may affect). Here is data on driver power compression I think you were referring to.
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/jbl_4367/

There is a huge difference between a 1" driver and a 3" or a 4" in all respects. And especially in output. But the bigger driver win hands down in almost all aspects. With the low prices on the used market there is no reason not to use them today. Pickup 2 used 1,5" (4" diaphragms) cores, get two fresh SL diaphragms and a cheap plastic wave guide (#5006815) wave guides and try them out. You will be surprised.

Very few HiFi systems (if any) are capable of clean 125db continuous output! And as that will permanently damage your hearing if listened to during long periods I suggest that may not the best yardstick. Maybe you are referring to "peak" and that is something different. as in dynamics capability.

Also worth taking into consideration is the Fletcher Munson curves which imply that the FR sensitivity of the hearing changes at different sound levels. And it certainly does at 125db.

Ian, I agree that there are very good analogue electronics and the Benchmark AHB2 is probably one of the best power amps available at any price. However, there are today digital alternatives at a lower price point that will give all those well built analogue units a real run for the money. And some of them are balanced in/out so they are built for 600 ohms.

Get one and try. I did and was pleasantly surprised. Check over at ASR forum as he regularly test them (and all sorts of audio) with the market leading and very expensive Audio Precision measuring rig.


Kind regards
//Rob

[DerekTheGreat]

A lot of consumer HiFi electronics was bad in terms of transparency in the 70’s and 80’s as they hadn’t mastered how to make something solid state sound good. Carver was putting TL072’s in his preamps which are woeful by today’s standards. Stuff was simply done to a price. Only in the HK Citation, Mark Levinson and the likes of Threshold did you get discrete class A circuits. The difference is not subtle with a suitably matched source. With highly analytical/ transparent loudspeakers like the 4367 and the M2 drivers this makes a difference to listening fatigue...

...If you are running an analogue system try and find the Hafler 101 preamp. It was one of the best budget preamps in the heyday of hifi...

"Carver" has become a dirty word in my household. How might a Hafler 101 compare with a Crown Straight Line One? The Crown SL-One has become my favorite preamp hands down. Not that I've tried too many; Marantz 3600, Dynaco PAT-5, Adcom GFP-555 and then the Crown.

DerekTheGreat, JBL M2 is capable of about 123db with limited power compression and there is no reason to think 4367 will produce less as they use very similar setup (sans the passive filter that may affect). Here is data on driver power compression I think you were referring to.
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/jbl_4367/

There is a huge difference between a 1" driver and a 3" or a 4" in all respects. And especially in output. But the bigger driver win hands down in almost all aspects. With the low prices on the used market there is no reason not to use them today. Pickup 2 used 1,5" (4" diaphragms) cores, get two fresh SL diaphragms and a cheap plastic wave guide (#5006815) wave guides and try them out. You will be surprised.

Very few HiFi systems (if any) are capable of clean 125db continuous output! And as that will permanently damage your hearing if listened to during long periods I suggest that may not the best yardstick. Maybe you are referring to "peak" and that is something different. as in dynamics capability...

...Also worth taking into consideration is the Fletcher Munson curves which imply that the FR sensitivity of the hearing changes at different sound levels. And it certainly does at 125db...

...Ian, I agree that there are very good analogue electronics and the Benchmark AHB2 is probably one of the best power amps available at any price. Kind regards...

//Rob

Hi Rob,

123dB continuous? That would put it over it's maximum recommended power of 300 watts RMS. Although I tend to look at maximum recommended power ratings as suggestions, I like to double them. The L150A's I had didn't really come alive until I threw 600 watts at them. Would be hard for me to try that with the 4367 as it's system impedance of 6 Ohms means none of the amplifiers I have would be comfortable driving them while bridged.

I was indeed referring to peak SPL levels. I start to see clip lights on my amplifier and so I won't run it any harder. For reasons you mentioned, I also don't listen there for longer than twenty or thirty seconds at a time, hurts the hears, feels like pressure on them. Although if I get to that point, I petty much have to shut the whole system down, as it is then not comfortable to listen at any volume. That's also what I meant by "compression." I'll admit, I do not understand the technical as well as most here, but comment anyway as I hope I'm not the only laymen who tries to play with audio.

Anyway, sometimes, those instrumental solos just call for the SPL's. For example, I cannot listen to "Shakin' Your Tree" by ZZ Top without jamming Billy's guitar interlude accompanied by Dusty's bass lines and then Frank's excellent percussion work. Need to feel that kick drum in my chest. The 813C's present all of this in a way no other system before them has been able to, not even those XPL200's, which are highly coveted/regarded in certain circles. The hype from those circles was enough to motivate me to get my own pair. Perhaps it's the magic of the 801C coaxial driver, 2245H and 2215H combo, not sure, but the low & mid-bass presentation of that system is unmatched to my ears. I never noticed or felt Dusty's bass lines in "Shakin' Your Tree" with the XPL's, for example. Plus, the cymbals/high-hat action of drum kits never sounded so life-like before. Have made me a fan of the Police just for Stewart's use of them and the kick drum. "Walking on the Moon" and "Murder By Numbers" are great to me. Tunes I knew before, but never looked at seriously. But as much as the 813A/B/C systems do get mentioned on the internet, most threads criticize them for being midrang-y and harsh. Comments like, "Those things were garbage, can't believe they were installed in so many studios, glad better things have come along." Sometimes in threads like that, you'll find people who actually worked with them chiming in about how great they actually are when set-up properly. Responses similar to, "They were the best selling monitor for a reason. If it sounded right on them, it sounded great everywhere else." It did take me awhile to get there with them. Getting back to the 4367's and to connect all of the crap I just wrote, I don't see how a two-way system could match the magic of the 813C + B460 system. Every system that has advertised frequency response near, to or below 40hz has benefited from a subwoofer in my experience. It eases the load off the full-range system and allows it to play cleaner. So it seems to me a fella wouldn't be done after $16 large, that subwoofers are a hidden expense. Maybe the 4367's don't suffer that fate, modern drivers and all. I've not been fortunate to hear modern systems, so I can't comment outside of speculation.

Another reason I drudged up the 813C's is I don't see how I could integrate a larger compression driver in them. Outside of working on cars, I'm not much of a DIY'er. Also, I've got no room for woodworking equipment, my two-car garage will always house two cars.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Edited to update content

Hi Rob,

I think the argument of digital versus an analogue is not an argument at all.

It comes down to how your overall system sounds to you? No one else. If you like what you use that’s all that matters.

My earlier posts referenced the continued use of analogue electronics in the recording process. These processes including SSL, API and Neve consoles are designed implemented to a much higher specification than consumer hifi.

I then made reference to consumer mass market hifi which is what the vast majority of JBL punters use today. Only a relatively small percentage of people chase expensive hi performance amplification. If someone uses a 20 years old amp it is what it is. They are not going to change it out based on an opinion. I think the Benchmark power amp is excellent under test. It’s very quiet which is a key indicator of its transparency. But it’s price is above what most hobbyists are prepared to spend. Those who fit the more audiophile notion of a JBL user may well use higher performance equipment. That is their choice , I wouldn’t necessarily put myself in that category but l have owned and made diy builds of Pass Labs power amps which match very well with JBL horns and compression drivers. They are simply more transparent & smoother than most other solid state amplifiers. The diy jfet Aleph power amp if a favourite of mine. See my comments below on noise floor. Greg Timbers uses and recommends Quicksilver valve power amps on horn loaded compression drivers. That is a hint on how to get the best out of a horn loaded compression driver.

I haven’t done my own subjective assessment of digital power amps like Hypex who are OEM for pro self powered PA monitors. Purifi and Nad are applying innovations in digital power amplifiers and home theatre receivers for the mass market hifi. Purifi have some diy kit modules which may appeal to the technically oriented diy audio amateur or thinking cap user. Some of these products have been reviewed in the Audio Express Publication recently.

l do listen to acknowledged journalists like John Darko who is a mainstream hifi influencer operating out of Berlin. John says digital is well digital as far as power amps go. He said a Gallium Nitride Fet digital amp he audition recently sounded more like a high performance hifi analogue power amp such as Hegal. Hi performance analogue amplification is dominant in the audiophile segment.

What works for you, me or someone else really depends on a number of factors and a whole host of variables.

On listening levels l personally believe a reference level of 85 db at the listening position is adequate (if actually measured) with 20 db of headroom. Without sounding condescending this is regarded as the standard for modern near field monitoring. The ear actually compresses if exposed to long term exposure above this level and may result in permanent damage. What matters to me is getting the noise floor down in the signal path with relatively efficient active systems. Put in context that is what makes high performance high resolution amplifiers sound better.

[toddalin]

From the measurements I've seen this thing doesn't compress even at 102 db. Who knows at what point it compresses but this thing has more dynamics then anything I've heard.

One does not need horns to attain the necessary dB and "jump factor." In fact, I believe that the proper cone driver will provide more "jump factor" because in addition to the instantaneous change in dB, it will more readily pressurize a room by virtue of moving/compressing far more air.

This is just a regular CD played on an Oppo95 through a Yamaha RX-Z9 RECEIVER in "Pure Direct" mode with no eq or room correction of any kind, electronic of physical. Speakers use 2241H 18", 2251J ~10", modified Heil AMT and my own design crossovers. Recording was done with a Nikon D750 DSLR where I sit on the couch. The soundstage and imaging on these is truely unbelievable and anyone is welcome to come by and hear for themselves.

https://youtu.be/WkgqMew8zRo