How is the 4367?

[Ian Mackenzie]

Closely following a know JBL design is a sure fire way of getting a good result. Spinning your own design isn’t necessary a simple and straightforward process. This applies to dsp crossover networks where there is a limited knowledge of the drivers/horn and woofers and a very limited understanding of dsp crossovers. I have seen people spend a large sum on JBL S98000 components only to see it all on the market 12 months later out of sheer frustration. It takes real skill and experience with designing a loudspeaker from scratch and even then sometimes it just doesn’t come together.

In an interview Greg Timbers offered some very good practical advice.

Put together a rough out of your loudspeaker enclosure. Using a passive crossover test board with some switchable text book crossover options simply try the horn/driver and listen to it before considering any measurements. This might include a simple passive CD EQ compensation.

If you can’t get a promising result at that point it might not get much better!!

So try a different woofer, driver or horn.

(This assumes your drivers are in good working order)

If anyone is interested l will post a schematic of a switchable passive crossover.

[Robh3606]

Buying sight unseen

Closely following a know JBL design is a sure fire way of getting a good result. Spinning your own design isn’t necessary a simple and straightforward process. This applies to dsp crossover networks where there is a limited knowledge of the drivers/horn and woofers and a very limited understanding of dsp crossovers. I have seen people spend a large sum on JBL S98000 components only to see it all on the market 12 months later out of sheer frustration. It takes real skill and experience with designing a loudspeaker from scratch and even then sometimes it just doesn’t come together.

Hello Ian

I have had several good builds cloning JBL systems with the information available on this sight. That's a shame about the 9800 component's and surprising the schematic is widely available.

I don't get the tweakers frankly. If you are constantly changing things how can you not get lost?? Seems like an inevitable consequence.

Also another good idea is to have a reference system for comparison. Makes differences and changes easier to hear if you have a know system for comparison. I have always compared DIY to a reference system.

If DIY is off it's rather obvious just have to figure out why which can be difficult at times.

How are the Joseph Crowe horns and systems?? Never heard a pair.

Rob

[hjames]

Closely following a know JBL design is a sure fire way of getting a good result. Spinning your own design isn’t necessary a simple and straightforward process. This applies to dsp crossover networks where there is a limited knowledge of the drivers/horn and woofers and a very limited understanding of dsp crossovers. I have seen people spend a large sum on JBL S98000 components only to see it all on the market 12 months later out of sheer frustration. It takes real skill and experience with designing a loudspeaker from scratch and even then sometimes it just doesn’t come together.

In an interview Greg Timbers offered some very good practical advice.

Put together a rough out of your loudspeaker enclosure. Using a passive crossover test board with some switchable text book crossover options simply try the horn/driver and listen to it before considering any measurements. This might include a simple passive CD EQ compensation.

If you can’t get a promising result at that point it might not get much better!!

So try a different woofer, driver or horn.

(This assumes your drivers are in good working order)

If anyone is interested l will post a schematic of a switchable passive crossover.

Always interested in a possible design for development use -
Thank you for making a kind offer!

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hello Ian

I have had several good builds cloning JBL systems with the information available on this sight. That's a shame about the 9800 component's and surprising the schematic is widely available.

I don't get the tweakers frankly. If you are constantly changing things how can you not get lost?? Seems like an inevitable consequence.

Also another good idea is to have a reference system for comparison. Makes differences and changes easier to hear if you have a know system for comparison. I have always compared DIY to a reference system.

If DIY is off it's rather obvious just have to figure out why which can be difficult at times.

How are the Joseph Crowe horns and systems?? Never heard a pair.

Rob

Hi Rob,

You raise some very helpful points.

I personally haven’t tried the Joseph Crowe horns yet.

The reports are promising. The point there is that Joseph closes the loop by making sure the client gets the results out of his investment.

The particular person l was referring to was using an early DEQX active crossover that promised good results. It was not a passive system.

With something like those drivers and the horn it should your forever system.
I think the X factor is what people say or think they are doing is NOT actually the correct way (per the original design). I heard it and it was not running like it should.

Over on Diyaudio l have seen countless people plug and play with expensive drivers and horn shaking their heads. Not everyone thinks logically like an engineer or has problem solving skills.

About 35 years ago l didn’t have an inkling of how to measure a loudspeaker with Might Mike or how to use TL parameters. If your not familiar with this sort of thing and the technical theory you are very much in the DARK. In the early 1990’s l attended a loudspeaker building course at a Technical College run by an engineer who worked at the broadcasting commission. I was like WTF. The learning curve was mind boggling. The understanding of how different cone profiles and suspensions work is very insightful. It wasn’t till l started to build multi way loudspeakers that l started to gradually understand what it was about. If you have the opportunity to talk or collaborate with people like Greg Timbers and Nelson Pass it solidifies your understanding on unknown aspects of the topic.

In some of the contemporary JBL systems they pretty much shoe horn the drivers to get them to do what they want. The S9800 with the 0435be and 4700 and the 4367 with the 2216nd and the 2216nd-1 are examples of that approach. What Greg did with his tri amp version of the DD66000 was so radical that it is not something anyone would figure out. It’s very clever but complicated to explain and you go dooo. That loudspeaker was meant to be tri amped but Greg had to build a passive system for Harman.

Apparently the new range of DEQX is much better according to Greg. But like US$5000+ it’s a lot to put into a diy project and your on your own.

Reading the Loudspeaker Cookbook is insightful but is not a guarantee of success. You have to work at it in a systematic or logical approach. It might take several hands on attempts before you get the results your looking for. That’s the fun part in this hobby and it’s where you learn what makes your project tick.

A huge misnomer in diy that making or forcing a loudspeaker measure flat is NOT a guarantee it will sound good. An analogy is buying a car. Both cars do 0-60 in 6 seconds. But which one will you prefer to drive. You can’t tell by looking at the specs or looking at it. A loudspeaker driver is much the same. It has a motor, suspension and moving parts. How all the parts function together is what you hear.

[rusty jefferson]

...Apparently the new range of DEQX is much better according to Greg. But like US$5000+ it’s a lot to put into a diy project and your on your own....

My understanding from a friend who has been in contact with them recently (he was supposed to be a beta tester) is the 4 way may cost close to $10k. They haven't made or sold any products for a couple years now and some are beginning to wonder....

This discussion does seem to come up pretty frequently and I always think about the thread Ken Pachkowsky started back in 2010 about using a professional to setup your active crossover even if you think you can do it.
https://www.audioheritage.org/vbulle...=DEQX+Westlake

I found that thread in 2014 and reached out to Ken just a few weeks before the accident and obtained the contact information for the person he's referring to in that thread who can Zoom in and adjust the DEQX far better than you can from the comfort of his office. I gave my friend his contact info and was there when he tuned my friend's system. I should say my friend is a highly qualified engineer who regularly writes technical articles for Audioxpress magazine. He had fiddled with his system and took measurements for months thinking he was making progress. He got to the point that it sounded good but never great. The fellow who Zoomed in had it sounding great in a few hours, pretty much as Ken described in that thread. It was an eye opener.

Not to derail this discussion, but if anyone would like that fellows contact info I'd be happy to pass it on to them but don't want to post it publicly. BTW, there is a newcomer into the digital crossover market. My friend gave up on DEQX and is an early adopter of this product and is working with the company on some minor bugs but he says it sounds much better than his older DEQX and is in that $5k price range for a 4 way.
https://danvillesignal.com/dspnexus-dsp-audio-processor

[Ian Mackenzie]

That’s interesting.

Please see this link

https://www.deqx.com/products/

https://www.deqx.com/news/

Up until recently there was a world wide shortage of electronic parts. This effected a number of industries include automotive.

They appear to be in the production stage.

https://m.facebook.com/photo.php/?ph...85664770233555

I have no affiliation with DEQX.

It ultimately comes down to having some very specific skills and a big swag of experience if you want to get it right in a short space of time. I know the Widget and others spent a long time tweaking their systems. That can be fun but unless you adopt a systematic approach to solving one issue at a time it can be excruciatingly frustrating. Think long rabbit hole.

[rusty jefferson]

Understood, but their website has looked like that for more than a year now and still no release date or pricing information yet. Hope it comes together for them soon. My friend is turning 80 this year and when they missed the January '23 release date announced this time last year he moved to the Danville unit. He's seeing a light in the tunnel and didn't want to wait to see what it is. :-)

.... I know the Widget and others spent a long time tweaking their systems. That can be fun but unless you adopt a systematic approach to solving one issue at a time it can be excruciatingly frustrating. Think long rabbit hole.

I think that was Ken's point in that thread. Even if you're extremely experienced and understand the technology, hire a professional and you're going to be happier with the results. It's only a few hundred dollars.

[dn92]

I did not have the chance to listen to 4367, but I listened several times some M2. It shares the same 1.5 inch compression driver with 4367. For the medium treble part of the signal, it doesn’t reach the performance of a TAD TD-4001. Many M2 clones builders also prefer old JBL 4 inches diaphragm compression drivers, which makes sense to me.I also listen JBL S4700 during last year’s Paris Audio Video Show, using same 15 inches woofer as the M2, and it is not at the level of as TAD Pioneer eXclusive 2402 or 2404. I’m an every day user of a pair of 2402, with active crossover (analog with specific crossover) and TN-3 EQ filtre after having used the original TN-2 passive crossover.If you can listen Pioneer eXclusive 2402 or 2404 and compare to 4367 it would be interesting to have your feedback.

[dn92]

I know the 2450, in fact I had them in my 4343's with 3155 crossovers and with Radian 1245-16 but would really prefer to stay well clear of any DIY. I want something that 'just works'

In France there is a Pioneer eXclusive 2402 like enclosure manufacturer that can ship to The Nederlands.The crossover schematic can be found on Internet. TAD TL-1601a/b and TD-4001 can be bought in Germany. Even if you install the components by yourself it is not really DIY.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hi Rusty

I agree for new to crossover/ room correction users hiring a technician is a smart move. Diy can take in a simple task but building a car or an airplane for the first time and you might get qualified advice preferably before you attempt to fly it.

Mitch Barret has been doing similar consultations with audio convolution

Somewhere on the www Mitch has a great video spelling out the myths of room acoustics and the process for how to deal with it correctly using dsp. Done wrong and you can easily mess up the whole job.

From that perspective an active crossover is one thing but then layering over that room correction it’s another Unknown Unknown. What l mean is you have to understand what it is you are dealing with before determining if you can do something about that. Sound waves inside a room behave and react differently in different frequency regions and Mitch explains this very well. My impression is that this is where diy people come up against barrier to success or meeting their expectations.

In some respects your better of leaving the DSP room correction part well alone as a diy exercise. Leave it to a specialist.

[Robh3606]

Hi Rusty

I agree for new to crossover/ room correction users hiring a technician is a smart move. Diy can take in a simple task but building a car or an airplane for the first time and you might get qualified advice preferably before you attempt to fly it.

Mitch Barret has been doing similar consultations with audio convolution

Somewhere on the www Mitch has a great video spelling out the myths of room acoustics and the process for how to deal with it correctly using dsp. Done wrong and you can easily mess up the whole job.

From that perspective an active crossover is one thing but then layering over that room correction it’s another Unknown Unknown. What l mean is you have to understand what it is you are dealing with before determining if you can do something about that. Sound waves inside a room behave and react differently in different frequency regions and Mitch explains this very well. My impression is that this is where diy people come up against barrier to success or meeting their expectations.

In some respects your better of leaving the DSP room correction part well alone as a diy exercise. Leave it to a specialist.

Hello Ian

Yes and getting room modes mixed in with crossover settings is just asking for trouble.

An excellent book! In case you didn't realize it is available. I have it on a tablet. Got it back in 2016! Might need updates should probably ask he is on the forum!

https://www.amazon.com/Accurate-Soun...s%2C106&sr=8-1


Rob

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hello Ian

Yes and getting room modes mixed in with crossover settings is just asking for trouble.

An excellent book! In case you didn't realize it is available. I have it on a tablet. Got it back in 2016! Might need updates should probably ask he is on the forum!

https://www.amazon.com/Accurate-Soun...s%2C106&sr=8-1


Rob

Ironically l always had the bass and treble tone controls on my father hifi integrated amp about +70% and - 20% respectively. I never had the tone controls flat. Wings album had amazing bass lines on Mrs Vendebilt.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mrs._Vandebilt



That was dangerous close to a Harman Room curve by the looks of it. It sounded really good for what it was!

[martin2395]

In France there is a Pioneer eXclusive 2402 like enclosure manufacturer that can ship to The Nederlands.The crossover schematic can be found on Internet. TAD TL-1601a/b and TD-4001 can be bought in Germany. Even if you install the components by yourself it is not really DIY.

Really not wanting to go that route, I've built crossovers, did mods on the units - I'm out of that business, I have no time and space for that and it's just plain headache all the time, no more. Just want something that works out of the box, back in the day I also got rid of all the DSP I had. A pair of M.2 with crowns and just loading the presets is as much as I'm willing to do with any DSP.

[Ian Mackenzie]

That’s understandable

Listening to your music is what it’s all about

[Ian Mackenzie]

I am interested in the sort of tweaks you were attempting?

Not wanting to turn this thread into a speaker building thread there are a few simple things that can help you relate what you hear to what you measure.

If you have built a clone of a jbl system the hard yards have been done for you. By this a mean a panel of experienced engineers and other people have listened to the design carefully with pitch perfect ears and the system has been voiced or tweaked to what the panel accepts.

As Robert H says use a reference if you are setting up a new loudspeaker, the L pads for example.

Trust your ears. Don’t listen with your eyes open.

If something bothers you focus on that alone and try and work out what is going on. Typically you will identify issues in the bass first. This is where the emotion response from much music starts.

Walk around your room and make a mental note of the changes in the level and the character of the bass. Most of us have limited options for loudspeakers placement and listening positions. However, the 1/4 wave bass reflections from the front baffle to the front wall and back to the baffle have significant impact on the smoothness of the upper bass.

Adjustment of the enclosure forward and back in 2 inch increments will be identified as variations in the tonal balance of the upper bass. The proximity of the enclosure to any corner of a wall and floor junction will be heard as boom. This is generally a +9 db increase in the bass level with accompanying ringing. Moving the enclosure out a long way is a double edge sword on bass level and smoothness.

I will not discuss positioning for stereo imaging because most of us have to accept a compromise due to domestic constraints. The height of your horns is however important to be level with your ears.

What simple amplitude measurements don’t normally show is the time domain versus frequency. Mountain shaped peaks reaching up to above -30 db below the reference level are considered un desirable. In the attached curve a measured one 4345 in my listening room with the enclosure near the front wall and about 70 cm from the side wall.

I should point out that the measurements were taken with REW as 2.5- 2.7 metres which is my desired listening position. This was chosen empirically and married up with room modelling in REW.

Subjectively l did a test firing with one channel bi amped using a Lumin streamer. Two works described the sound. Fucking good 👍.

Now to the measurements. There are a few prominent areas l will be treating with bass traps and a band of selected absorption panels around the room, the ceiling and a heavy rug in front of the listening position. Some modest paramedics EQ will tame the bass peaks.

The divisions of 5 db. Greg Timbers recommends averaging at least 5 measurements in and at listening position and taking an average reading in REW.

In a few weeks l will re measure and tweak the bass with my Synthesis processor using Dirac.

Edit
It’s worth pointing out that the peaks in the bass can be reduced with careful use of Room Correction. However the bass peaks are a modes that resonate or ring like a bell. It’s the ringing that blurs bass notes. Only specialised bass traps can damp ringing at low frequencies in a small listening space. These modes may only congregate in the corners while at other locations there maybe a dip in the bass. So placement of the listening position may end up being a compromise of enough bass and good stereo imaging.

Cheers

Ian