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Thread: JBL 43xx Charged Coupled Network Boards

  1. #31
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    Wink

    Hi Matt,

    Thank you for posting. I don’t think there is a justification for pricing your pcb offer relative to the overall cost of these networks. Have you in fact checked if anyone is in fact offering pcbs to the diy audio community at your prices? This is a valid concern by people looking at the price of your pcb offer.

    https://www.audioheritage.org/vbulle...-Mk-II-network

    In the link above is a schematic of the last iteration of the 4344 called the 4344mk11 which was an improvement on prior systems. I also use this system’s mid high frequency array.

    The reason l bring this to the attention of forum members is that JBL has demonstrated the use of their charge coupled network with different capacitor types to enable production of that network in this system. In this network JBL are using NPE and Mylar capacitors bypassed by small value PP film capacitors using the charge coupled approach.

    I have adopted this approach with parts lists for people wishing to clone this system and they are quite happy with it. The overall cost is significantly less than using the Solen 250 volt Fast caps. I believe the crossover pcb is considerably smaller and therefore also reducing cost.

    As you are no doubt are aware group buys of pcbs are a regularly occurrence on Diyaudio.com. As costs are going up a group buy would be a welcome initiative with a view to reducing the cost.

  2. #32
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    Charge Coupled networks have always been expensive to build. I have been using them for years in my DIY and clone builds. One of the easiest ways to lower the cost is too look at cored inductors and rated voltages on the capacitors.

    If you look at the capacitor pricing the difference between 250V vs 400V is significant. The 400V parts are almost double the cost. If you look at JBL specs for the Capacitors in the stock networks it's 100 volts. It's obvious that the 250 volt parts are more than adequate.

    Looking at the 4344 Mk 2 JBL doesn't always use CC networks on the woofer. You can CC with NPE as Ian suggested or just use a bypassed film capacitor as an alternative. The NPE's are the most cost effective.

    With inductors JBL has used cored inductors in almost all of their designs. Just take a look at the referenced 4344 Mk2 parts list as an example. It can be difficult to find air cores that match the specified DCR of the stock cored inductors. You can save considerable cash using cored inductors as compared to air cores with the same DCR values. Just verify that the power ratings are reasonable.

    Look at the 5.6Mh in the Aux PCB parts list. It is listed as 6.5 in the parts link and the price on the 3Mh looks a bit high. Much more costly than the 5.6/6.5 Mh??

    If you can't find the exact value Inductor you can purchase the closest higher value and take some turns off providing you have a way to measure for Inductance.

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  3. #33
    Member VinylGroove's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    Look at the 5.6Mh in the Aux PCB it 6.5 in the part link and the price on the 3Mh looks a bit high. Much more costly than the 5.6/6.5 Mh.

    If you can't find the exact value Inductor you can purchase the closest higher value and take some turns off providing you have a way to measure for Inductance.

    Rob
    For the 5.6Mh inductor, I verified the link is correct for a 5.6. They have a dash in the url that makes it look like 6.5 but it's followed by "5_6" which is for the 5.6.
    https://solen.ca/en/products/solen-p...12awg-inductor


    BUT, on the other Aux board inductor I bought one 10x the size I need! It turns out the location of a decimal is important! Who knew?


    Thank you for catching the price on that! I updated the spreadsheet and screenshot earlier in this thread.

  4. #34
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    Arrow

    The other thing is building an external network is more expensive than an internal network. Those six L pads add to the overall cost as do the additional cable terminals. I have built a number of these things and it’s surprising just how much the hardware adds to the cost.

    Therefore if you are working to a budget putting the network inside the enclosure will save you money. Think about the rest of your system and then determine what you can justify. As Rob has said look at the inductors for alternatives. The Dayton Audio resisters are perfectly satisfactory instead of the Mills resisters and will save you money.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    The other thing is building an external network is more expensive than an internal network. Those six L pads add to the overall cost as do the additional cable terminals. I have built a number of these things and it’s surprising just how much the hardware adds to the cost.

    Therefore if you are working to a budget putting the network inside the enclosure will save you money. Think about the rest of your system and then determine what you can justify. As Rob has said look at the inductors for alternatives. The Dayton Audio resisters are perfectly satisfactory instead of the Mills resisters and will save you money.

    One of the great things about these PCBs is the ease of bypassing/eliminating the L-Pads with a fixed resistor, once you determine the desired resistance you want in your system. And it's easily reversible.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinylGroove View Post
    One of the great things about these PCBs is the ease of bypassing/eliminating the L-Pads with a fixed resistor, once you determine the desired resistance you want in your system. And it's easily reversible.

    It’s marketed as a feature.

    This is the thing :

    You loose all flexibility in setting the levels once you do that.
    There is quite a lot of re work in implementing that change and the L pads you have installed become redundant. Those L Pads are US$75.00 on the parts list.

    Secondly you have to be able to accurately determine the L pad levels. Then disconnect the L pads completely and then measure them. There’s measurement tools and whole procedure to get right that may require several iterations over time. Are your drivers working properly in the first place? Across a population of pcb purchasers are they going to have the levels set consistently?

    There is no sonic audiophile virtue in removing the L pads.

    Yes the pcb holes are there but the onus is put on the purchaser to figure all this out and do it.

  7. #37
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    For those interested in the whole topic here is an FYI.

    The link below is a pictorial of the stock 3145 network used in the popular JBL 4344 and 4345 systems.

    I did this over ten years. There is a lot of detail to be addressed in disconnecting or removing the stock crossover and routing cables to an external crossover if that’s what you want to do. It’s one thing to look at it on paper but in terms of opening these things up there’s a lot going.

    None of this has been fleshed out for these pcb purchasers with images.

    If it were me l would be running several tutorials for an awareness, what’s involved and how to go about it so the customer does get it right. If l was paying those pcb prices l would be expecting that. It’s about being committed to following it through. It’s not just the sale.

    https://www.audioheritage.org/vbulle...er-A-pictorial

  8. #38
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    I don't want to derail into a philosophical discussion on pricing, as the seller sets the price and the free market decides if people buy and how many. I feel they're a great value (as long as they end up with a good result, that is

    If anyone is wondering, Echo reached out to me and has offered support on multiple questions post-sale and even offered to give some thought to designing a way to switch them back and forth between biamp and full passive, so the support is there thus far.

    As for the fixed resistors, you're right about the L-pads being more flexible. The biggest consideration would be if you change the room or speaker placement or gear and may want to adjust those settings again. I'm just annoyed at my vintage L-pads because they are the only issue with my current 4343's. Deoxit resolved it, but that's a bandaid and the issue will return. A stepped switch with multiple resistors in a ladder configuration would be interesting and I considered it but decided to stick with the proposed parts list.

  9. #39
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    Thumbs up satisfied customer

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    For those interested in the whole topic here is an FYI.None of this has been fleshed out for these pcb purchasers with images.If it were me l would be running several tutorials for an awareness, what’s involved and how to go about it so the customer does get it right. If l was paying those pcb prices l would be expecting that. It’s about being committed to following it through. It’s not just the sale. https://www.audioheritage.org/vbulle...er-A-pictorial
    For us building several pairs of these large boxes, it has been really easy to deal with EM. The pricing is very fair in regards to the quality.. not sure where all the critique is coming from. Or imagined problems with implementation.It seems for someone saying "If I was paying" you have quite a lot to say.. as someone who did pay I have nothing but praise for the communication, the actual quality of the product and effort in supplying us these types of parts for our builds.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    If you look at the capacitor pricing the difference between 250V vs 400V is significant. The 400V parts are almost double the cost. If you look at JBL specs for the Capacitors in the stock networks it's 100 volts. It's obvious that the 250 volt parts are more than adequate.
    Rob - I'm glad you brought up 250V vs. 400V capacitors, as it's something worth discussing.

    From a technical standpoint, it's absolutely true that a 250V capacitor is more than adequate in these circuits, as you pointed out. In fact, I initially started the board layout with Solen's "PA" Fastcap line (250V) in mind, based on the smaller size, the sufficient voltage rating relative to the stock caps, and what I *assumed* would be cheaper parts. However, a few things immediately came to light:

    - Solen's PA (250V) line is not carried at most of the bigger parts vendors - Parts Express, Parts Connexion, or Madisound. They only carry the PB (400V) line.
    - If you go direct to Solen Canada's website (solen.ca), the 250V PA parts are actually the same price, or in some cases *more expensive* than, their 400V PB equivalents. As befuddling as this is, it's true! For example:
    https://www.solen.ca/en/products/sol...propylene-film (22uF 250V PA series - $12.59 CAD each)
    https://www.solen.ca/en/products/sol...propylene-film (22uF 400V PB series - $11.32 CAD each)
    https://www.solen.ca/en/products/sol...propylene-film (2.2uF 250V PA series - $5.19 CAD each)
    https://www.solen.ca/en/products/sol...propylene-film (2.2uF 400V PB series - $4.80 CAD each)

    Since the Solens have a good reputation in charge-coupled applications on Lansing Heritage, and because it's what JBL uses in their latest and greatest charge-coupled networks (they're what I use in my own setup also), I chose to target those for the board design. Since there was no price benefit on the Solen 250V over the 400V, and because the 400V are more widely available from vendors, I chose to size the footprints for the 400V series and include them in the "default" parts list. The user manual also states that customers can choose to pull from the default parts list, or substitute parts of their own choice, as long as they verify the dimensions and fit.

    That said, there are less expensive 250V polypropylene caps from Dayton that would be perfectly fine in this application. As alluded to in previous posts, there are other options (NPE, mylar, etc.) that can be leveraged to lower cost as well. The boards provide a nice platform for experimentation, since the larger PB-sized footprints should be big enough to accommodate a variety of caps, so people can feel free to choose what they like in terms of preference, budget, etc.
    https://www.echomountainaudio.com
    Charge-Coupled Crossover PCBs

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by VinylGroove View Post
    I don't want to derail into a philosophical discussion on pricing, as the seller sets the price and the free market decides if people buy and how many. I feel they're a great value (as long as they end up with a good result, that is

    If anyone is wondering, Echo reached out to me and has offered support on multiple questions post-sale and even offered to give some thought to designing a way to switch them back and forth between biamp and full passive, so the support is there thus far.

    As for the fixed resistors, you're right about the L-pads being more flexible. The biggest consideration would be if you change the room or speaker placement or gear and may want to adjust those settings again. I'm just annoyed at my vintage L-pads because they are the only issue with my current 4343's. Deoxit resolved it, but that's a bandaid and the issue will return. A stepped switch with multiple resistors in a ladder configuration would be interesting and I considered it but decided to stick with the proposed parts list.

    But is a free market and high prices invite completion.

    I speak for someone who isn’t a forum member and has asked for a justification of the pricing?

    This is quote l have been provided by this person from a reputable online line pcb fabrication business for the same basic specifications of the bi amp is pcbs. The fabricator is Pcway.com

    FYI

    A quote on price, build and shipping of quantity 10 pcbs 320mm x 240mm per the bi amp pcb shipped to the reseller is US$206.20 plus shipping $91.31 Total $297.41

    Assuming supply of two Biamp or PCB US$30.00 each plus shipping locally US$20.00 = US$80.00 cost per pair of these boards. You sell with shipping at US$279.00 per.

    This means your net profit on the sale of two pcbs is US$220.00.

    This is the retail online sale price of a part of a audio diy project. Not a finished retail product in Beverly Hills. Does that represent good value? In AUD x 1.45 = AUD $404.00 plus fees for two. Is this the price for the privilege to assemble a passive crossover network on two twenty dollar pcbs?

    For purposes of comparison not long ago l purchased a Douglas Self stereo preamplifier pcb set. This is complex project to assemble with hundreds of parts designed by an expert.

    Here is the correspondence. Included was a folder of pdf documents and pcb overlay to facilitate assembly.

    This is a great sounding preamp that is easy to build. A single PCB kit is $50 US.

    Shipping outside the US is $25 via First Class Post.
    That means for one kit $50 + $25 = $75 to ship to ship inside the US.

    If you buy a 2nd kit the shipping on that 2nd kit is free. That means 2 kits ...

    Outside the USA $100 US (ie: 2 x $50) + $25 (pack & ship First Class mail) = $125 US

    The kit amounts to ...

    #1) the main PCB
    #2) the 5 x 1 IO PCB,
    #3) Front panel selector switch PCB
    #4) Power supply PCB (120v but can be easily modded to 230v)
    #5) and 2 (hard to get) OEM quad RCA phono connector blocks

    The BOM can be fulfilled by Mouser and Digikey

  12. #42
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    Don't have a dog in this fight, as they say, but the 4 board set for $329 doesn't seem outrageous to me. I don't see it as boutique, but rather a niche product. How many of these things could they possibly sell in a lifetime? Apparently, not enough that someone else wants to start making them.

    I don't know, but if you want to talk manufacturing cost/profit ratio, what's it cost Solen to make those 22mfd capacitors they sell direct to consumers for CA$12.50 each?

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    But is a free market and high prices invite completion.

    I speak for someone who isn’t a forum member and has asked for a justification of the pricing?

    This is quote l have been provided by this person from a reputable online line pcb fabrication business for the same basic specifications of the bi amp is pcbs. The fabricator is Pcway.com

    FYI

    A quote on price, build and shipping of quantity 10 pcbs 320mm x 240mm per the bi amp pcb shipped to the reseller is US$206.20 plus shipping $91.31 Total $297.41

    Assuming supply of two Biamp or PCB US$30.00 each plus shipping locally US$20.00 = US$80.00 cost per pair of these boards. You sell with shipping at US$279.00 per.

    This means your net profit on the sale of two pcbs is US$220.00.

    This is the retail online sale price of a part of a audio diy project. Not a finished retail product in Beverly Hills. Does that represent good value? In AUD x 1.45 = AUD $404.00 plus fees for two. Is this the price for the privilege to assemble a passive crossover network on two twenty dollar pcbs?

    For purposes of comparison not long ago l purchased a Douglas Self stereo preamplifier pcb set. This is complex project to assemble with hundreds of parts designed by an expert.

    Here is the correspondence. Included was a folder of pdf documents and pcb overlay to facilitate assembly.

    This is a great sounding preamp that is easy to build. A single PCB kit is $50 US.

    Shipping outside the US is $25 via First Class Post.
    That means for one kit $50 + $25 = $75 to ship to ship inside the US.

    If you buy a 2nd kit the shipping on that 2nd kit is free. That means 2 kits ...

    Outside the USA $100 US (ie: 2 x $50) + $25 (pack & ship First Class mail) = $125 US

    The kit amounts to ...

    #1) the main PCB
    #2) the 5 x 1 IO PCB,
    #3) Front panel selector switch PCB
    #4) Power supply PCB (120v but can be easily modded to 230v)
    #5) and 2 (hard to get) OEM quad RCA phono connector blocks

    The BOM can be fulfilled by Mouser and Digikey
    Kindly stop with the complaints about price in this thread, it's not helpful and is kind of weird. I'm a happy customer working on a project that I'm very excited about and would like to proceed with that kind of focus and enjoyment of the hobby. Thank you.

  14. #44
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    Well it’s interesting you say that…Lol

    Why are you here? It wasn’t for sale on the Lansing Market Place.

    However, l did have a look at the website after l was made aware of it. On further investigation l determined that the parts in the parts list did not coincide with the parts in the 4343 JBL model crossover schematic. Why? Oddly no schematic is published or available on the Echo Mountain Audio Website. I have not had time to look at anything else.

    I am familiar with the technical aspects of these systems so l modelled the parts in the parts list electronically. The results did not match the JBL published data in all instances. In view of this l kindly reached out to Echo Mountain Audio to let them know. Ultimately Echo Mountain Audio accepted there were problems and that they had not checked or understood the information provided on the JBL schematic tech sheet. I then validated a modified schematic for you so it would work properly. As it turns out the none of the work was peer reviewed or tested by a 3rd party before it was advertised. I am not aware if the parts listed on the website have been updated or an error notice placed on the website.

    Is it worth the asking price? Well that’s in the eye of the beholder on EBay. What you don’t won’t hurt you will it!

    So as it is you are the recipient of a lot of my time.

    Thankyou coming here.
    Last edited by Ian Mackenzie; 12-17-2022 at 04:50 PM. Reason: Typo

  15. #45
    Member VinylGroove's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Well it’s interesting you say that…Lol

    Why are you here? It wasn’t for sale on the Lansing Market Place.

    However, l did have a look at the website after l was made aware of it. On further investigation l determined that the parts in the parts list did not coincide with the parts in the 4343 JBL model crossover schematic. Why? Oddly no schematic is published or available on the Echo Mountain Audio Website. I have not had time to look at anything else.

    I am familiar with the technical aspects of these systems so l modelled the parts in the parts list electronically. The results did not match the JBL published data in all instances. In view of this l kindly reached out to Echo Mountain Audio to let them know. Ultimately Echo Mountain Audio accepted there were problems and that they had not checked or understood the information provided on the JBL schematic tech sheet. I then validated a modified schematic for you so it would work properly. As it turns out the none of the work was peer reviewed or tested by a 3rd party before it was advertised. I am not aware if the parts listed on the website have been updated or an error notice placed on the website.

    Is it worth the asking price? Well that’s in the eye of the beholder on EBay. What you don’t won’t hurt you will it!

    So as it is you are the recipient of a lot of my time.

    Thankyou coming here.
    I definitely benefitted from your comments because you pointed out a price on the list I posted was off on one of the items and I bought the wrong one. So you saved me some grief and a lot of waiting since I was able to order the correct part - still laughing that I bought an inductor 10x the size of what I needed. So thank you for that!

    I just don't think it's appropriate to bash each other on a public forum over something like pricing, I think that's best left to a private conversation because they never end well when it's aired publicly.

    FYI, I've been an active member of hundreds of forums since the 90's and owned some myself as well. I've surely helped millions of people with my chronic overthinking and incessant need to delve into details and share findings as I do that to decompress, and I rotate between a lot of hobbies and interests. That is what makes forums such a great resource - and when someone makes an error, it gets called out by other experts so honestly forums are the best place to obtain knowledge in many cases because "none of is as smart as all of us". When a discussion is had and a consensus is made among those with expertise, that is incredibly valuable and appreciated. I've benefitted a lot from this forum for sure.

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