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Thread: A Compact Home Theater

  1. #16
    Senior Member DerekTheGreat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    Yes, but I used to have a business building prototypes and acquired many specialized skills along the way. That said, I hadn't done anything like this in over 15 years and boy was I rusty. I had to re-learn a few tricks and I no longer have a spray booth or some of the other niceties you have when it is your full-time gig. Thanks though... appreciated.


    Widget
    You're welcome, they are fantastic. Sounds like that business was a special period in your life. I'm intrigued about these prototypes you made and who you rubbed elbows with in the process. I used to be able to paint too, definitely rusty, although I'm sure I could still powder paint just fine. Liquid paint? I've run and sagged every job I've done the past year. I want to blame the rattle cans, but I feel I should remember better.

  2. #17
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1audiohack View Post
    The fact that they work well opens up some DIY design possibilities that I may never have considered and this excites me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    Neat subs how are they?? They look small and compact you really get 1st octave out of them??
    The subs are way out of the box thinking and use some pretty unconventional design ideas. The boxes are filled with activated charcoal to increase their apparent volume over fiberglass, wool, etc. And the enclosures are extremely rigid being machined from a heavy extruded aluminum sections. These things are tiny at about 14" square by only 3 1/2" deep, yet they put out significant low bass output. The specs for a pair -3dB at 24Hz and an output capability of 109 dB at 40Hz.

    Read the attached white paper to get some very interesting info that could be useful in DIY applications.


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  3. #18
    Member macsic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    ...These things are tiny at about 14" square by only 3 1/2" deep, yet they put out significant low bass output. The specs for a pair -3dB at 24Hz and an output capability of 109 dB at 40Hz.
    .....
    .
    I am speechless.
    How do they get that. I built subs last month and they easily weigh over 150 pounds each.

    Really interesting
    Music is emotion.

  4. #19
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by macsic View Post
    I am speechless.
    How do they get that. I built subs last month and they easily weigh over 150 pounds each.

    Really interesting
    Take a look at the white paper. They pay a price sensitivity wise so you just use more to get your SPL. Thanks Mr Widget for the white paper.

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  5. #20
    Member macsic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    Take a look at the white paper. They pay a price sensitivity wise so you just use more to get your SPL. Thanks Mr Widget for the white paper.

    Rob
    Yes! I took a quick look at the document and it made me think of the principles of AirMotionTranducer (AMT) but for very low frequencies.
    Music is emotion.

  6. #21
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    Take a look at the white paper. They pay a price sensitivity wise so you just use more to get your SPL. Thanks Mr Widget for the white paper.

    Rob
    And the price in $$$.

    Four of these little guys and their dedicated amp is north of $6K!

    That is fine if you have clients who don't have room to hide conventional subs, the room isn't terribly large, and they have deep pockets, but otherwise these subs are not a solution for all projects. They do point to interesting potential solutions for other DIY designs though and why I thought they may interest folks here.


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  7. #22
    Senior Member HCSGuy's Avatar
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    Very cool subs - look very similar to Dynaudio's RCC sub:
    Name:  dynaudio-custom-install-performance-series-in-wall-sub-rcc-pre-fit-angle.jpg
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    I also remember Bohlender Graebener did something similar years ago - I think theirs were (12) 3.5" woofers, six on each side, facing each other:
    Name:  BohlanderGraebenerSub.jpg
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    You're right about the efficiency, but I love the vibration cancellation. I used to have a Triad music sub with opposing 10" woofers, and currently have a sub mounted under my deck with two opposing 12" subs - sounds great, and the lack of vibration makes it really hard to locate, except by careful listening.

    Great project all around - really nice to see what someone with next level talent can put together
    That the internet contains a blog documenting your life does not constitute proof that your existence is valid. Sorry.

  8. #23
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCSGuy View Post
    Very cool subs - look very similar to Dynaudio's RCC sub
    Thanks for sharing this, I didn't know that Dynaudio was also offering an RCC sub. Looking at the photos and checking out the Dynaudio website, I would guess that Dynaudio is either rebadging the Artison unit or is building it under a license agreement. I believe the term RCC was invented by Cary Christie. Interestingly the price of the Artison unit and the Dynaudio model is the same.

    In the photo the woofers look like the original MK I version of the Artison sub, the ones I have are the MK II version with a different cone/dustcap and a modified surround.

    Regarding those BG subs, it is interesting that BG (now Wisdom Audio) and Artison are both located near each other just south of Reno NV. Coincidence?

    Quote Originally Posted by HCSGuy View Post
    Great project all around - really nice to see what someone with next level talent can put together
    Thanks, not sure I can live up to the phrase "next level talent", but decades of experience (aka: lots of screw ups) does have its benefits.


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  9. #24
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    That's a great looking system! Excellent planning and execution Mr. Widget. I'm sure it sounds great too. Movie night just got an upgrade at your house.

  10. #25
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    Great work on that office system Mr Widget. Yes keeping the co-ordinator happy is the best thing you can do.

  11. #26
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    As an update on the system and to provide additional info on these crazy subs... last weekend while Rob was having some rainy day fun on the East Coast, I also played around with my system. I decided to try moving these "in-wall" subs directly behind the left and right speakers. I had never installed them in the walls of my room and had them deployed behind the listening couch with a 12" Revel B112 sub in the right front corner of the room.

    While this sounded great, as a fellow audio hobbyist who can never leave well enough alone, I decided to try an experiment. Without making any changes to delays, gain, or EQ, I pulled the two RCC-320 subs from behind the couch and placed them up against the wall and next to each end of the front bookcase directly behind the left and right speakers. I shut off the 12" woofer and powered the little subs up... it sounded really good. Surprisingly good.

    I removed the B112 subwoofer from the room and then reset the Lyngdorf pre/pro with the correct gain and delay and ran RoomPerfect correction again to take these changes to the system into account. I then gave the system a serious listen. I was absolutely blown away. In this configuration not only was the system still quite capable of being a movie powerhouse it upped the game into a stellar two-channel music listening system. I literally sat there slack jawed. How in the world could these two tiny subs do that?! Deep, powerful, tight, tuneful bass... at any reasonable or even unreasonable SPL level. Unbelievable!

    This weekend I invited a couple of audio buddies over to get their take. I wanted to make sure I hadn't gone mad! Both friends have serious systems at home. One has M2s and the other has a large DIY system. They were both as equally stunned as I had been when I first reconfigured the system. They commented on the well integrated bass that was deep and musical, and at the wide and seriously deep soundstage! These time aligned, phase corrected, narrow baffled Ultra-X20s sounded huge or laser focused depending on the music being played. I played a variety of tracks before revealing the subwoofers which are completely hidden behind the curtains behind each speaker. This creates the illusion visually and audibly that the huge deep bass is coming from the relatively small stand mounted speakers. Pulling back the curtain to reveal the stupidly small subwoofers really floored my friends. We three have decades of experience with all manner of audio gear and seeing these tiny subwoofers and knowing what we were hearing just doesn't seem possible.

    The take away I'd like to provide is that sub placement is absolutely critical. Understanding room modes and how placing 2 or more subs around the room to get better and more even bass distribution while very helpful, don't lose sight of the integration with your main speakers, especially in two channel playback. Beyond that, for those inclined... I think there is some serious DIY potential here with this slot loaded balanced configuration. These subwoofers are nothing short of miraculous.


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  12. #27
    Senior Member 1audiohack's Avatar
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    Hello Mr Widget;

    I love this thread and this project. For one thing it shows that technology and creativity must in fact be improving our audio experience.

    The little Meyers just break my brain. If diffraction is even a thing and electronic solutions to physical problems are at best just a bandaid then these just make me wonder what I donít know or understand. I certainly hope to hear them.

    On the next to explore front I just received four cubic feet of activated charcoal for experimentation that I hope to get to this weekend.

    I have toyed a bit with slot loaded subs and there is something to the increased radiation resistance created by this loading method.

    Thank you for sharing! I hope youíre not done yet.
    Barry.
    If we knew what the hell we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1audiohack View Post
    ... The little Meyers just break my brain. If diffraction is even a thing and electronic solutions to physical problems are at best just a bandaid then these just make me wonder what I donít know or understand. I certainly hope to hear them....
    Barry, I just looked at the data sheet and it appears (but doesn't say) that the crossover point to the horn is pretty low, perhaps as low as 600hz. Down to 1khz even, diffraction isn't going to be an issue. Those 2 woofers are acting as one, and with the horn are acting as a concentric point source like the Altec 604 or UREI 801. There will be a little rippling of interference from the horn but it's low enough in frequency not to be a big deal. The drivers also appear to be physically time aligned and the advantages of that can't understated. If it was an MTM design that crossed over at a more typical 2khz-3khz range, the interference would be problematic.

  14. #29
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rusty jefferson View Post
    Barry, I just looked at the data sheet and it appears (but doesn't say) that the crossover point to the horn is pretty low, perhaps as low as 600hz. Down to 1khz even, diffraction isn't going to be an issue. Those 2 woofers are acting as one, and with the horn are acting as a concentric point source like the Altec 604 or UREI 801. There will be a little rippling of interference from the horn but it's low enough in frequency not to be a big deal. The drivers also appear to be physically time aligned and the advantages of that can't understated. If it was an MTM design that crossed over at a more typical 2khz-3khz range, the interference would be problematic.
    Meyer has a larger version called the Ultra-X40. The 40s up the woofers from 5” to 8” and the compression driver bumps up to 3” from the 2” driver in the Ultra-X20. I have compared them with the Ultra-X20s. In a direct comparison the 40s have a smoother and more musical midrange. Not night and day, but it is there.

    Unfortunately the 40s are too large to satisfy my aesthetic requirements. I am relying on a bit of DSP “sweetening” from my pre/pro to take care of this.


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  15. #30
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    Only Meyer would be ballsy enough to take the approach that they did ( & then get away with it ).

    First the applied EQ curves.

    And then raw impedance of the drivers.

    Followed by the raw response of the Ultra X40 drivers.

    My pics are simple screen grabs ( enlarged ) taken from a pdf created by a German company. Go to Meyer Sound X40 Technical Review.pdf

    I've used these X40's a couple of times. Some comments later.

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