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Thread: Seeking subwoofer recommendations to pair with XPL200's.

  1. #46
    Senior Member DerekTheGreat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCSGuy View Post
    Yeah, I had a mint pair of 240Ti’s years ago - very disappointing. Similar comparison between 240Ti and 250Ti as there is from L100T3 to XPL200 - didn’t have the smoothness in the mids or the definition in the bass. I ended up pulling them apart - Grumpy has the enclosures now, mids went to someone else for a 250 to 250Ti up grade, etc.

    I think the biggest thing you’ll gain going to the UREI’s, or really any high efficiency speaker, is that they will sound much more dynamic when played loud, as they will not go into compression until a higher volume point. For someone who likes it loud like you, this may be addicting, but you may miss how clean and detailed the XPL’s sounded. If you want it loud, clean, and dynamic, you will find your choice in speakers to be much smaller, and at significantly higher cost (Genelec, JBL K2, Danley, etc). I have never heard UREI’s, btw, so I cannot say how they sound.
    That's a bummer. Interesting you mention definition in bass, cleanliness and dynamics. That's just about everything I love about the XPL200's in a nutshell. Their bass & midbass really makes "old" tracks come to life in ways that make me feel like I'm hearing them for the first time. I don't know how to explain it better than that though. But listening to say "Dear Prudence" and "Get Back" by the Beatles is an experience. Difference between HD and SD. Speaking of Get Back, I used my SPL meter the other day. The system achieved a peak of 107 dB-A (Clip lights flickering on the Adcom GFA-555II) but was comfortable around 106 dB-A (No clip lights). My listening position is about seven or eight feet from the speakers. How loud do you (and anyone else who'd like to comment!) listen and what will your system(s) achieve? About how much louder might I expect from a system that has a rated sensitivity of ~101dB @ 1watt/1meter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium Dome View Post
    Did you say "K2"? (In parenthesis at least...)

    As often posted around here, I use a pair of JBL Synthesis S2S 15" subs with my K2s to give better mid bass and better low bass. The BSS 366T grumpy-tuned omnidrive units on the K2s and Greg Timbers blest S2S subs on a 40Hz crossover through a Parasound pre make a great addition that produces ample LF output in my home's big common area.

    I see S2S subs on the 'bay from time to time, and prices are usually low. Since I prefer to have subs that require external amplification, the S2S fits the bill. There have been far too many failed plate amps for me to want to mess with that again.
    I'll keep an eye out for them should this hypothetical thing fall through. I also prefer subs which require external amplification as failed plate amps have been my experience too. Well, I also have enough failed amps in my roster as well. My Carver TFM 55x is out along with my "spare" Crown K1. Both have dead right channels. I think I'll fix the Crown, but no one locally will touch the Carver and it's already been under the knife under my tenure...

  2. #47
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    Good luck with your plans.

    It helps to put everything in perspective.

    Hi end hifi

    The K2 systems are impressive but equally important is attention to room acoustics and careful setting up. Without the skills needed to achieve this the last few ounces of what the K2’s offer is lost and the cost benefit with it. Unfortunately people do acquire these systems with the sole intent that the loudspeaker will on its own deliver their expectations. This results in deep disappointment. I have met system owners who have experienced this plight and as a consequence they have all but lost interest in the hobby.

    A first world problem - an introduction

    The thing to be aware of is many modern residential homes have living spaces with an open plan layout and large flat parallel wall and floor surfaces. Many people need to compromise with a much smaller than desired listening room which also create complicated acoustic challenges. The design of these residential living spaces creates much longer than ideal reverberation time (RT30 over 600ms).

    A first world problem - what you don’t want to know

    The effect is a clouding of the clarity - and detail of an otherwise good loudspeaker system. In addition there maybe slap echo any other problems including modal ringing in the low frequency response. This result is serious loss of bass clarity. Careful placement of the loudspeaker system can assist with the ratio of direct sound from the loudspeaker and the first reflections and some low frequency modes. But the reverberation issues remain unfortunately. Many audiophiles are completely oblivious to this fact and continuously invest a fortune in Stereophile AAA+ rated equipment based on reviews. An unfortunate fact….. l know of a high end turntable manufacturer who went to Michael Fremer’s home to review a new turntable. He was shocked by the state of listening room. It was described as a child’s toy room. Yes that’s for real. It’s a dump not a critical listening space. You can view this on YouTube.


    Why size matters

    With a typical mid fi and conventional hifi system with limited dynamic capacity we can overlook these shortcomings to a degree. But the more sound energy you put into a room as for example with a powerful JBL system the more the room needs to find a way of absorbing that energy. Simple physics.

    Annoyingly there is no one size fits all and the acoustic treatment solution is often very room specific requiring real skill to assess and implement. Too much of the wrong diy treatment and your room will suck and not be better.

    Real world examples- it does make a real difference

    In the case of Greg Timbers listening room he has achieved more with the acoustics than JBL’s auditioning rooms according to people in the know. I can only say it’s a treat to hear a loudspeaker be it an Everest or a 4331 in Greg’s room. The room is after all at least half what you actually hear. With my own room an acoustic consultant has specified 5 square metres of bespoke broad band bass traps and 17 square metres of wall treatment. Fortunately the Tardis is dimensionally transcendental and much of this acoustic treatment can be architecturally incorporated into the room finishes. The challenge is making the living space visually acceptable when incorporating such treatments.

    The zero game position

    If that all sounds (sorry) too hard it’s a safer bet to set your expectations on a system more appropriate to your circumstances than aim for the stars and still enjoy a trip to Disneyland.

  3. #48
    Senior Member DerekTheGreat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Good luck with your plans.

    ....If that all sounds (sorry) too hard it’s a safer bet to set your expectations on a system more appropriate to your circumstances than aim for the stars and still enjoy a trip to Disneyland.
    Hmm. I think I'll skip that and go to Cedar Point instead. I'm picking up what you're putting down though. My room acoustics seem fine to my laymen ears. My living room still looks like the old folks I bought the house from might still live there; Carpet, old heavy cloth curtains. Cloth couch. I'm very pleased with how things sound though. The issue is I'd like it to be a weee bit louder. Would you be satisfied with 107 dB-A peaks? Should I be? Is that loud? Seems in order to get the ear drum rattle satisfaction factor right, I need to achieve about 110 or 111. The new kit which would take the XPLs' place would take up significantly more real estate within my living room. Bass overloading(?) might be a factor in that case. We'll see how it shakes out. It's all about the journey, right? Maybe after it's all said and done I might give up. Pretty damn expensive hobby for someone of my limited budget. Which is funny, because just like with everything else, I'm spending nickels by comparison to others.

  4. #49
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    No no. I remember going through that phase of making everything louder than everything else. It’s absolutely normal. Trust me.

    The thing is are your 107 db peaks Klipschorn peaks or JBL peaks? Unless you have those peaks down to 30 hertz it does not qualify as loud in my book! It will sound bigger as opposed to louder once you start pumping out real bass. When the lights start dimming you know it’s working.

    To test this philosophy one day my most hated neighbour stopped knocking on the front door until the end of a Dark Side of the Moon track. His complaint was he could not play his Madam Butterfly vinyl record because the stylus kept skipping the grooves with the thumping from my place. He was really bitter and twisted about it. I laughed at him and I took that as a compliment. There was a sense of achievement about that event.

    My excesses have moderated ever so slightly over the years despite running an 700 watt per channel Yamaha P7000S on the woofers.

  5. #50
    Senior Member DerekTheGreat's Avatar
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    Haha ok, I guess I'm not losing my mind. I know I'm not always going to hit those peaks, I just want to know I can when the mood calls for it. "Klipschorn peaks." LoL. In this case, I'll wager they are of the K-horn variety and that I've never heard those of the JBL variety. "When the lights start dimming, you know it's working." Hah, that's great. Dark Side of the Moon. I very much enjoy listening to Time and Us and Them, pretty impressive if your neighbor couldn't play due to your bass. My lights certainly are not dimming yet, but fortunately the circuit everything is using is rated for 20A and not the normal 15A. I think that's the issue with my SPL meter, it's A weighted. From what I read, they don't respond much below 200hz. Excited to have better bass and higher SPL. Hopefully I won't lose too much fidelity in the process. So in terms of K-Horn SPL peaks, is 107 dB acceptable or would you be looking for just a bit more torque as well?

  6. #51
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    Well if the peaks are 107 at your listening distance is very loud.

    But l think your listening will change once you get some real bass happening below 100 hertz.
    You will be scared to turn it up to your current levels. It will be lick a rumble in the jungle. Be afraid, be very afraid…particularly if your in the can…Lol.

    Good luck with your journey

    Ian

  7. #52
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
    My lights certainly are not dimming yet, but fortunately the circuit everything is using is rated for 20A and not the normal 15A.
    I think Ian was kidding or speaking metaphorically. Obviously if you have a properly wired electrical system your lights won’t dim no matter how loud you play a system… think Metallica at a stadium gig. They are playing pretty damned loud and the lights are not dimming. Then again in my misspent youth I did experience what Ian was describing when I lived in rentals with minimal wiring and undersized AC panels.

    Quote Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
    I think that's the issue with my SPL meter, it's A weighted. From what I read, they don't respond much below 200hz. Excited to have better bass and higher SPL. Hopefully I won't lose too much fidelity in the process. So in terms of K-Horn SPL peaks, is 107 dB acceptable or would you be looking for just a bit more torque as well?

    Again in my misspent youth at one time I had a system that I had assembled to go loud. It used a single Marantz 510 amp powering a pair of DIY pseudo JBL 030s that I built with K130s and EV T35As and a pair of DIYs with 2220s, LE85s, and 2405s. On one occasion I borrowed a calibrated SPL meter from the physics department at school and measured 127dB peaks at 1m and 116-120dB throughout the large room. Both measured on the A scale. I wasn’t wearing hearing protection and yes it was damned loud. Somehow I managed to survive and keep my hearing!

    These days— 40+ years later there is no way I could tolerate that kind of SPL. Today I have better playback and measurement equipment and a little more sense. While I could hit levels north of 115dBA, I have no desire to do so and have not tried, but like you I occasionally like to air out the system and will blast the system at peaks above 100dBA. Depending on the musical content, switching to the dBC scale, the meter will usually jump 10dB or more. There is a lot of energy in the LF that the dBA scale ignores.

    From my experiments, getting a system to play ridiculously loud for a brief time isn't that difficult assuming you have the watts and the drivers are fairly robust, but getting a system to play loudly and still sound good... that is another thing altogether. Look at a system like the 4350 or something with similar capabilities. Ideally you will have compression drivers with 4" diaphragms and enough high power woofers on the low end to pull it off without dynamic compression or distortion. Unfortunately these systems are not inexpensive, but a refurbished and tweaked PA system may be able to be coaxed into higher fidelity.


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  8. #53
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    I actually did have the lights dimming with the big JBLs at someone’s 21st with some big lights.

    The power wire out to the power pole was smoking. The Fire brigade came and shit happened.

  9. #54
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Hello Derek

    What kind of SPL meter do you have digital or analog??? If it's an analog meter style it's to damped to read the true peaks even on fast mode. A peak reading digital will be more accurate.

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  10. #55
    Senior Member DerekTheGreat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    I think Ian was kidding or speaking metaphorically. Obviously if you have a properly wired electrical system your lights won’t dim no matter how loud you play a system… think Metallica at a stadium gig. They are playing pretty damned loud and the lights are not dimming. Then again in my misspent youth I did experience what Ian was describing when I lived in rentals with minimal wiring and undersized AC panels.


    Again in my misspent youth at one time I had a system that I had assembled to go loud. It used a single Marantz 510 amp powering a pair of DIY pseudo JBL 030s that I built with K130s and EV T35As and a pair of DIYs with 2220s, LE85s, and 2405s. On one occasion I borrowed a calibrated SPL meter from the physics department at school and measured 127dB peaks at 1m and 116-120dB throughout the large room. Both measured on the A scale. I wasn’t wearing hearing protection and yes it was damned loud. Somehow I managed to survive and keep my hearing!

    These days— 40+ years later there is no way I could tolerate that kind of SPL. Today I have better playback and measurement equipment and a little more sense. While I could hit levels north of 115dBA, I have no desire to do so and have not tried, but like you I occasionally like to air out the system and will blast the system at peaks above 100dBA. Depending on the musical content, switching to the dBC scale, the meter will usually jump 10dB or more. There is a lot of energy in the LF that the dBA scale ignores.

    From my experiments, getting a system to play ridiculously loud for a brief time isn't that difficult assuming you have the watts and the drivers are fairly robust, but getting a system to play loudly and still sound good... that is another thing altogether. Look at a system like the 4350 or something with similar capabilities. Ideally you will have compression drivers with 4" diaphragms and enough high power woofers on the low end to pull it off without dynamic compression or distortion. Unfortunately these systems are not inexpensive, but a refurbished and tweaked PA system may be able to be coaxed into higher fidelity.


    Widget
    "Misspent youth." Sounds like good times LoL. That's a good point, and I can only imagine how many amps are being pulled during a rock concert. Semi related: The lights do dim when the A/C kicks on. I think spring of next year will have me at least replacing the capacitor.

    Wow, that is mighty impressive, especially from a single 510! Other than the slick appearance, meters and nostalgia, I didn't bond with the one I had. Very Bose like in the sense it sounded & performed great until it was compared to something else and something surprisingly much cheaper, coughcoughAdcomGFA555IIcoughcough. I will say that it shined the brightest when I had the Klipsch Cornwalls connected to it. Hardly saw the clip lights and it drove those speakers well enough to surprise me. Didn't stay that way for long as the Cornholes were destined for the garage.. Anyway, how long did you keep that DIY set up around and were you happy with it overall? If you still have any pics of them I'd like to see them. 120dB peaks are nuts. Funny how with dual amplifiers pushing 350+ watts I'm only able to achieve peaks of 107dB by comparison. One thing I've learned in this quest is just how important sensitivity is, looks like my speakers do need to change in order to go higher, like you and other members have mentioned. More food for thought is that I was using a Carver TFM 55x which I absolutely loved on midrange & top end duties. However, it has made pudding in it's trousers once again. And once again my shelved GFA 555II had to go in behind it. Despite being rated for 175 watts less than the Carver and never being serviced, it seems to drive the top end louder than the Carver. Both amps are described in their sales literature BS as being high current, but it looks like only the Adcom delivers. The Adcom is going a good job, but I prefer the sound of the Carver. However, I'm not sure it's worth fixing the Carver as I only got about a year out of it from the last time it was fixed. I was pretty shocked with the repair bill the first time it raped me.

    "Airing out the system." Nicely put, and that's what I like to do/find myself doing on the occasions I pull the chair to the center of the room and jam. A lot of those times I start out listening to stuff like the Dire Straits because of how pretty it all sounds with about 1 watt or less. Then another tune comes on and somehow I find myself noticing clip lights, just keeps sounding better and better and I find myself wanting to feel the bass and and have my ear drum rattled just every so slightly by the high frequencies. Especially so with stuff I previously sneered at and figured I'd never actively listened to it, like Steve Miller. "Filler Steve Miller" my dad used to say, and me too. Then some years later I heard an older colleague say something along the lines of "There's a reason his '74 to '78 greatest hits album was a staple at many a party." That comment hit me as I found myself actually jamming Swing Town, Take the Money and Run, Rock 'N Me and The Stake. I previously figured I'd never listen to the first three by choice ever again. And yet there I was trying to be conscious of clip lights with Rock 'N Me and Take the Money. Something those XPL's do with the midbass to Miller's guitar and I have to hand it to him, the entire songs in general. I was hearing that "shit" as I've never heard it before. It suddenly wasn't shit and I understand what my colleague was trying to say. I ended up buying his stuff all remastered and there was a surprise version of Take the Money and Run, some sort of studio take. The guitar work in that is superb, I think I prefer that version just a smidge more than the original.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    I actually did have the lights dimming with the big JBLs at someone’s 21st with some big lights.

    The power wire out to the power pole was smoking. The Fire brigade came and shit happened.
    Whoa. You can't say that and then not tell the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    Hello Derek

    What kind of SPL meter do you have digital or analog??? If it's an analog meter style it's to damped to read the true peaks even on fast mode. A peak reading digital will be more accurate.

    Rob
    Hi Rob! It's digital, a BAFX 3370. Has handy peak features for min & max, that's how I got my readings. Is there an affordable digital C weighted meter out there?

  11. #56
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
    Is there an affordable digital C weighted meter out there?
    Is $100 affordable? The Extech 407730 is fairly accurate and offers A and C scales as well as fast and averaging readings.

    I just compared the one I have with my calibrated Class 1 meter that is accurate to +/- 0.1dB. The source was pink noise and I compared A and C scales on both devices.

    The $100 meter was low by about 12dB on the A scale and about 14dB down on the C scale.


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  12. #57
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    If you download and read this article and then obtain a copy of this book it will give you some useful insights and an understanding on increasing the dynamic range of a loudspeaker system.

    https://s7a63f2c46e250b22.jimcontent...bl_english.pdf

    The link in the forums stick is not working. Perhaps the Administrator can look into this.

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...m_bibl_vppi_i1

  13. #58
    Senior Member DerekTheGreat's Avatar
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    Hi Mr. Widget,

    $100 is affordable, but a wee bit expensive considering the low usage it'll see. It was down 12dB? I'm an idiot, but 12dB seems pretty excessive considering here I am trying to achieve an extra 5 to 10 dB. I think my meter was pretty cheap, <$50, and so that makes me wonder how inaccurate it is.

    Hi Ian,

    Thank you for the links. I shall feast my eyes reading on the history of JBL.

  14. #59
    Senior Member DerekTheGreat's Avatar
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    Well, while I was quiet here, this was happening in the background!:

    Old XPL's made way for rusty jefferson's 813C's and custom B460 subwoofers!
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    Lifted from what I posted in rusty's D.C. Metro Area Meet-Up thread:
    "
    Glad Rusty came across my "Looking for subwoofer recommendations to pair with my XPL200's" thread. Because yep, got some subwoofers alright. Rusty and his wife are wonderful people, had a great time. Should be said that Rusty went above and beyond, because of him every piece of kit ended up in that trailer very well packed. I mean, he made custom jigs for us to keep them in place during transit! Not to mention all the time he took to school me on things, to dismantle the speakers and load them in the trailer with me. He even threw in his Carver amp, that blew me away. Truly a stand-up guy. Almost forgot, Mrs Jefferson got dougnuts for the listening party! Wish we could have stayed longer to B.S., but the road was beckoning and we were working off of one hour of sleep..
    "

    I've got less than two hours of total listening time in and am still making adjustments, but they kick a lot of ass. The Carver hasn't even touched the 60 watt mark on it's dials and yet that's given me 112+ dB, which is "Whoa!" loud to me. I was afraid to give it any more gas due to my poor ears and then my experiences with the XPL's, old stigmas die hard. Without having the final verdict ready, I have noticed the 813C's do some things much better than than the XPL's do, like midbass presentation and overall bass slam. Maybe a smidge tighter than the XPL's but also more authoritative and so tracks like "Never Been any Reason" by Head East or "The End" by The Beatles really hit you. It was like Ringo was kicking me in the chest. Loved it so much I had to listen twice. I also really enjoy live performances on the 813C's, sounds like you're there. I have yet to hook the BX63A into the rig, as I'm still using the Ashly XR4001(?) dual three way cross over. Reason being is I'm not sure my shit shack will be able to handle flat bass down to 30hz, so I want to compare. The Ashly allows me to filter out stuff below 40 at 2dB per octave. I can't do that with the BX63 and I think it adds +6db at 30hz to make the response flat? The manual doesn't go into detail about that, but also says I can't use things like the Ashly in conjunction with it, not sure why, but I intend to heed the warning. As it is, the bass is very enjoyable. Anxious to see what the BX63 does for it.

    Anyway, still interested in the Citation 7.4 subwoofers and have a lead on two. However, the coffers are dry. Fortunately, that lead doesn't mind waiting until they refill. I should probably make a separate thread for the 813C's..

  15. #60
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Bx-63 gives you +6 dB @ 26 Hz curve already posted.

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

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