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Thread: Seeking subwoofer recommendations to pair with XPL200's.

  1. #1
    Senior Member DerekTheGreat's Avatar
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    Seeking subwoofer recommendations to pair with XPL200's.

    Hello everybody!

    I've been enjoying my XPL200's for quite some time now, but I am looking for a subwoofer to help ease the burden on the 2214H's, they aren't happy trying to reproduce low stuff at higher SPL's. I tried to mitigate that by swapping out my Ashly XR1000 for an XR2001 and while that will do the trick if I set the crossover point high enough, (Using slope of -6dB @ 45hz) the result is unsatisfactory low end performance at lower volumes. So I'm looking to find a passive subwoofer to compliment them (Intend to drive subwoofer(s) with a Crown K1). Ideally, it would be marvelous if I could find a JBL product to match them aesthetically and/or acoustically, but budget is also a factor. Didn't Rythmik make passive subwoofers? Velodyne SC-15? What about JBL professional gear? I started to look through the catalog from 1998 here http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/...s/1998-pro.htm and came across the MR918. Although I think that's too big, I'd like a 12 or a 15" in there. Also, the inputs look strange to me- how does one connect something like the MR918 to a "home" amplifier? What recommendations do you guys have?

    Gear used:

    Current:
    Adcom GFP-555 Preamp
    Ashly XR2001 Crossover
    Carver TFM-55x Amplifier (Highs/mids on XPL's)
    Crown K1 Amplifier (Lows on XPL's)


    Proposed:
    Adcom GFP-555 Preamp
    Ashly XR2001 Crossover
    Carver TFM-55x Amplifier (Highs/mids on XPL's)
    Crown K1 Amplifier (Midbass (2214H on XPL's)
    Crown K1 Amplifier (Lows on external sub)


    Thank you for taking the time to read this and for your input.
    Last edited by DerekTheGreat; 08-04-2022 at 09:03 AM. Reason: Clarity

  2. #2
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Do the crowns have DSP?? If they do you could build or purchase a B380. That's a single 2235 in 4.5?? Cubic ft tuned to 26 Hz. You would need a BX-63 to add the +6Db Q2 boost filter or use DSP in the Crowns. That is the correct time period.


    http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/...-b380-b460.htm

    Rob
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  3. #3
    Senior Member 1audiohack's Avatar
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    The Crown K series do not have any processing on board. They make super good moderately powerful sub amps.

    Iím guessing you donít want to DIY a sub?

    Barry.
    If we knew what the hell we were doing, we wouldn't call it research would we.

  4. #4
    Senior Member DerekTheGreat's Avatar
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    A B380 is out of my price range, I think. Can't remember the last time I saw one and yeah, they're usually without the BX-63 dealio. +6dB Q2 filter? Please help me with my ignorance, what's Q2? Would I need some sort of DSP if I went with any type of passive sub? I'm not really a fan of DIY beyond car repair. I have zero woodworking skills or tools, so just looking to pick something up and go. The passive route seems ideal to me as I already have a spare K1 on hand and those are considerably cheaper. I am a fan of the Crown K series for low range duties, was very impressed with it and especially for the money. I think the K1 sounds better than K2 down low, based on my testing and despite the power advantage the K2 has over the K1.

    So, what passive subs have you guys played with or heard? Any you'd recommend? I was running twin M&K MX-350THX's (Back when I was using my L150A's in my hi-fi set-up) until the subwoofers for the HT set-up died. Then they moved to fill that role and wow, major improvement over the muddy & bloated JBL 250P's. So if I bought a powered sub, I think I'd be inclined to go for more of those. However, they seemed more on par with home theater duties than musical duties. I really didn't care for all the extra low end. For classic rock stuff, not much of a difference, but when modern stuff came on, meh. So up until recently, I didn't miss the subwoofers.

  5. #5
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    Speaking of M&K subwoofers, the M&K "Volkswoofer" has quite consistently garnered decent reviews for it's musicality ( which I assume means it faithfully tracks the music and is not just a bloated 1-note bass generator ).

    Google "Volkswoofer"


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    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
    Q2? Would I need some sort of DSP if I went with any type of passive sub?
    Virtually all true subwoofers as opposed to woofers require some form of frequency optimization. This can be via an active or passive analog network or a DSP.

    "Q" refers to the width of a filter's cut or boost frequencies. A "Q" of 0.1 is a very narrow band of frequencies where as a "Q" of 2 is a much broader range of frequencies. With a parametric EQ whether DSP or analog you can dial in the Q as well as the center frequency and the amount of boost or cut.


    Widget

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    Derek.

    Research the ( discontinued ) Synthesis 3S3 subwoofer. It's passive and uses the well regarded le120h (12" ) woofer that's found in the L7 .



    From this thread!


  8. #8
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    As Mr. Widget replied that is the filter used in the BX-63 and that can easily be duplicated using DSP. I have a crown amp for my HT subs and use the exact same filter using DSP.

    If you are using the Ashley as you crossover might just be easier to use an active subwoofer with the Ashley driving the LFE input depending on the sub.

    Here is what the filter response look like out of a BX-63A. Blue is the woofer and the Red in the High pass.

    Rob
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    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Hey Rob, so what is that: Q=2, +6 dB @ 25Hz and a second order butterworth crossover at 125Hz?


    Widget

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    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    Hey Rob, so what is that: Q=2, +6 dB @ 25Hz and a second order butterworth crossover at 125Hz?


    Widget
    Yes that's it. I think there is a VLF high pass in there to sharpen the knee and give subsonic protection bellow 20Hz. Can't find any info though.

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

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    Senior Member RMC's Avatar
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    I think with some analog graphic equalizer models one may APPROXIMATE a similar boost/cut filter EQ.

    On the EQ shown the low cut filter is variable from 20hz to 200hz (also has high cut filter from 3.5khz to 22khz). These are Bessel 12 db/oct. filters, said to have better linearity, phase and Group delay in that context. The Bessel has a little more droop than a Butterworth filter for example.

    That suggests the EQ boost may need to have a bit more amplitude here. Naturally, being graphic 2/3 oct. EQ, not parametric, the slider center frequencies are predetermined and filter bandwidth is not adjustable, but the filters are constant Q, and the array of frequencies available on the equalizer pretty much suits my needs.

    Note i took off the removeable caps on the slider controls, these being like the ones typically found on mixer sliders, didn't like that for eqing, the EQs now have the same handling and look, at least for sliders.

    The DBX 1215 EQ allows some of the above with its 18db/oct. @ 40hz Bessel low cut filter. However, the approximate boost/cut filter "trick" is limited to around 40hz for this unit since its a single frequency low cut contrary to the other one. I do like the DBX steeper 18db slope, specially with the 2205H and its limited cone travel by today's standards. Box tuning is in the vicinity of the filter's frequency, therefore lesser potential consequences if i beat a little on the driver.

    As for parametric EQ's, well as i recall Orban made one though i don't think they still exist, George Massenburg Labs has model 8200 costing a bundle of money, and Rolls' parametric model RPQ160B is more affordable, also made in the US, but its a single channel unit therefore one needs a pair for stereo plus one more space i don't have in the rack...

    Richard

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    Senior Member DerekTheGreat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl K View Post
    Speaking of M&K subwoofers, the M&K "Volkswoofer" has quite consistently garnered decent reviews for it's musicality ( which I assume means it faithfully tracks the music and is not just a bloated 1-note bass generator ).

    Google "Volkswoofer"

    Quote Originally Posted by Earl K View Post
    Derek.

    Research the ( discontinued ) Synthesis 3S3 subwoofer. It's passive and uses the well regarded le120h (12" ) woofer that's found in the L7...

    From this thread!

    Thanks Earl! I have heard of the Volkswoofer! Also heard of the Goliath or something like that, pretty attractive cabinets too. I'll have to keep an eye out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    As Mr. Widget replied that is the filter used in the BX-63 and that can easily be duplicated using DSP. I have a crown amp for my HT subs and use the exact same filter using DSP.

    If you are using the Ashley as you crossover might just be easier to use an active subwoofer with the Ashley driving the LFE input depending on the sub.

    Here is what the filter response look like out of a BX-63A. Blue is the woofer and the Red in the High pass.

    Rob
    Oh wow.. When I bought the Ashly XR-2001 I figured that would be all I'd need for the subwoofer- as I could now just send anything below my cut off frequency to it courtesy of the Ashly. But thanks to you guys and your vast knowledge, I see it isn't that simple. Bummer. The MX-350THX's seem to work that way- there's a bypass switch on the back and it seems to just run full signal when flipped. However, the subwoofer outputs on my receiver (Marantz SR7005) make it play like magic. Looks like I had mistakenly assumed all the receiver was doing was sending a low signal to the subwoofer. Although it sure sounds better playing that way than the other way- the bass is tighter and more engaging, so I left it. I was hoping the same would be true by just sending the low signal from the Ashly over to my Crown K1 and then the subwoofer. What would happen if I ran it this way anyway, or at least until I got some active DSP? The Ashly at least has a level and crossover slope adjustments I can play with, would it really be that bad?

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    The XR2001 will work fine, it just won't provide the 'step down' EQ function that JBL specifies but you can try the bass control on your pre-amp / receiver / whatever to try to get in the ballpark. Graphic EQs are pretty much the wrong answer for whatever you're try to accomplish EQ wise unless you're in a big hurry to accomplish some better than nothing EQ quickly - which is what they were invented for. If you want an elegant, all in one box analog solution look for an old BSS FDS366 and build a custom EQ Filter for each crossover band. If you want to get a good quality digital device look for a used Ashly 4.24D. Those have no front panel controls, it's all done from a computer connection but they are fairly cheap on eBay or Reverb.


    Quote Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
    Thanks Earl! I have heard of the Volkswoofer! Also heard of the Goliath or something like that, pretty attractive cabinets too. I'll have to keep an eye out.



    Oh wow.. When I bought the Ashly XR-2001 I figured that would be all I'd need for the subwoofer- as I could now just send anything below my cut off frequency to it courtesy of the Ashly. But thanks to you guys and your vast knowledge, I see it isn't that simple. Bummer. The MX-350THX's seem to work that way- there's a bypass switch on the back and it seems to just run full signal when flipped. However, the subwoofer outputs on my receiver (Marantz SR7005) make it play like magic. Looks like I had mistakenly assumed all the receiver was doing was sending a low signal to the subwoofer. Although it sure sounds better playing that way than the other way- the bass is tighter and more engaging, so I left it. I was hoping the same would be true by just sending the low signal from the Ashly over to my Crown K1 and then the subwoofer. What would happen if I ran it this way anyway, or at least until I got some active DSP? The Ashly at least has a level and crossover slope adjustments I can play with, would it really be that bad?

  14. #14
    Senior Member DerekTheGreat's Avatar
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    Ah, so this thing?: Ashly 4.24D - 4-In/8-Out Audio Distribution Processor 4.24D B&H (bhphotovideo.com)

    ..Great, more unique connectors to waste money on. Would it take place of the XR-2001? Seems like it could, like it is a digital version of the 2001. That's great, no more scratchy pots.

    The BSS deal seems nice: FDS-366T | BSS Networked Audio Systems (bssaudio.com)
    I like that it seems to use balanced connectors everywhere.

    Thank you for the recommendations. By the way, any JBL pro subwoofers you could recommend? Seems those use a 1/4" type of input, is that correct? I'd like a 14" or 15" unit, but I haven't been able to find any, just monster 18 inchers. Not sure how those would look between my XPL's and the audio cabinet I've got everything in.

    I have an Audio Control C101 series II as well. One of the biggest improvements I noticed was from pulling that out of my system. With proper gear, I've realized I don't need EQ. I bypass all of that stuff on the preamp, as it fortunately has a defeat feature.

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    Sorry, I meant to type BSS FDS360 crossover as being the ultimate analog crossover for those analog purists but of course the newest of those probably came off the production line twenty years ago and most on the used market lived pretty hard lives in portable systems. The BSS366T is a nice unit, I have two of them and they are my favorite DSP crossovers. I even keep a virtual machine installation of Windows XP to talk to them. This is because the control software will only run under XP and while you can accomplish most if not all of the configuration from the front panel ( if the display still works, not always a given with these ) you'll need to set aside a big block of time to navigate it all. Again another discontinued device. While those particular Ashly units are discontinued the current software will still work correctly with them under Win 10. I have two of those as well, one in my living room stereo so the Euroblock connectors aren't a terrible idea. Certainly better than RCA jacks but to each his own.

    If you're looking to save space and aggravation why not just go with an amp that has DSP crossover capabilities built in?
    https://labgruppen.com/product.html?modelCode=P0DNW

    Quote Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat View Post
    ...

    The BSS deal seems nice: FDS-366T | BSS Networked Audio Systems (bssaudio.com)
    I like that it seems to use balanced connectors everywhere.

    ...

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