JBL L200B with 2216nd, LE85/H91, and 077. Crossover recommendations.

[KCjblSound]

So this is what I have:

L200B or L200A cabinets (I have both)
2216nd woofer
LE85/H91 mid
077 hf

and L200A/NX16A crossover

Looking for some help me design crossover or suggest a crossover that would work well with this?

The first issue IÂ’m having is finding the right woofer crossover design for the 2216nd. Ideally I would like to copy the 4367 but I cannot find the crossover specs. Then again they show the crossover point of 700 hz and IÂ’m thinking 1100 hz or 1200 hz would be more ideal for this 3 way?

Or should I just use the NX16A for the low and mid crossover? My biggest issue with the NX16A crossover being the size capacitor used on the mid (6uf). It is half the size of the cap used in the L200 original (12uf), L200B/L300 (16.5uf), Nelson Pass L300 (22uf).

For the HF 077 I was just going to do the single 1uf cap same as the Nelson Pass crossover.

Any recommendations are appreciated. IÂ’m kind of new at this.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Sounds like a nice project and a nice woofer.

If your looking for a better than okay result your going to needs a passive network specific to your drivers.

I can assist with a passive crossover and have all your drivers.

If you click on my email address in my signature you can send me an outline of what you’re looking for and l will correspond with you and look at some options with Leap 5 simulations.

Ian

[hjames]

Hmmm - I have strongly considered setting up another L200 system -
I was quite pleased with the sound using the 2234 woofer, the 2405 slot on top, and the 2445J mid driver on the walnut smith horn.
I thought the wood horn had a much better, smoother sound than the JBL exponential horn.
After the work setting up the Heathkit Valencia - it sounds quite nice - but, my memory of the L200s seems better.
I checked back with @tinpan, but he didn't know I was still interested.
So while I was trying to sell the Heaths, he got an offer and sold off the L200s ... sigh

[nedseg]

I have similar (see posts on AudioKarma as well)
L200
2216ND-1
N8000 xover driving
LE85 & 077
I'm biamping (tossed the LX16s) via a Venu360, LF@1khz, and (2216) EQ's posted elsewhere here.
I measured the ports (it's a 5 cu ft cabinet) thinking they'd need changing, but concluded not.)

The ND1s sound fantastic - No complaints whatsoever.
The horn is definitely a limitation - still considering alternatives.

I'm defintely interested in what Ian comes up with too!!
(Scott is my 'advisor')

[Mr. Widget]

In my list of possible future projects, an upgraded L200 is on the short list.

I'll either use a pair of 1501AL woofers that I already have or get a pair of 2216NDs.
The plan would be to modify the cabinets to accept the longer 2312 horns and use an active crossover in the 800Hz region. Between the LE85 and the 077s I would use a passive crossover.

Interested to see what you guys come up with.


Widget

[hjames]

I'm hoping to get a pair of L200 cabinets in the next month or so from the Subwoof closeout sale.
I have a set of JohnW Walnut horns on the way from Texas (originally commissioned by Dhar)!
I have a pair of JBL 2445j 2" tweeters on the shelf, and the 2328 adapters to fit them to the walnut horns.
I've got the coated JBL diaphrams on the way to warm them up for home use ...
I'm almost ready for a winter project, once those pesky Heathkit/Valencias go away ...



And UPS just came by ... 2 boxes delivered ...
unbroken, unbent packages-
so I took a peek!

In my list of possible future projects, an upgraded L200 is on the short list.

I'll either use a pair of 1501AL woofers that I already have or get a pair of 2216NDs.
The plan would be to modify the cabinets to accept the longer 2312 horns and use an active crossover in the 800Hz region. Between the LE85 and the 077s I would use a passive crossover.

Interested to see what you guys come up with.

Widget

[Mr. Widget]

And UPS just came by ... 2 boxes delivered ...
unbroken, unbent packages-
so I took a peek!

Great News!!!


Widget

[hjames]

Even better news - a big box just arrived - a VERY well packed pair of JohnW walnut horns.
Local audio-friend Dhar commisioned them at some point after I had my original pair,
he sold them to a Lansing member in TX, and, he just sold them to me for my current project!

Great News!!!

Widget

[hjames]

So the new L200 project is ongoing.
I got a pair of 2445j pro drivers, have a pair of the 2328 horn adapters, have a source for some replacement wood horns, and found some "Nelson Pass style" L300 crossovers.
My old system had the 2234 woofers in place, but I'm interested in the 2216nd drivers this time around.
Looks like the hard part may be finding a pair of the 2216nd woofers ...
most places I've looked show them as sold out/out of stock.

[Robh3606]

Hello Heather

The place in Florida had a sale on them and has not had them in stock since. Did you get on the waiting list??

Rob

[hjames]

Hello Heather

The place in Florida had a sale on them and has not had them in stock since. Did you get on the waiting list??

Rob

I emailed Melissa to put me on the waiting list Sunday about 1PM. (2216nd - not the -1)
Just before 5 she replied, said they were back in stock.
I immediately ordered a pair - just over $900 for the pair, shipped. (ouch!)
Yesterday I got an email that they were being shipped from San Diego and I'll have them next week!
I'll share more once I see them.

Contact info in image to minimize harvesters

[Earl K]

The first issue IÂ’m having is finding the right woofer crossover design for the 2216nd. Ideally I would like to copy the 4367 but I cannot find the crossover specs. Then again they show the crossover point of 700 hz and IÂ’m thinking 1100 hz or 1200 hz would be more ideal for this 3 way?
For the HF 077 I was just going to do the single 1uf cap same as the Nelson Pass crossover.

Any recommendations are appreciated. IÂ’m kind of new at this.

Actually, it's the S4700 and the way it implements of the 2216nd that you ought to be copying for your lowpass ( IMO ).

After a bunch of research I would suggest that RobH3606s lowpass for his 2216nd is what you ought to try out ( his lowpass is pretty close to the guesstimated values used in the S4700 with a couple of functional differences > due to his box not having the convex//curved kick-plate installed which appears to bump-up a range of frequencies ).

Here's the range of frequencies that the kick-plate seems to bumpup ( this ground-plane measurement of the M2 parts from a German HiFi magazine is something LHF member "pos" posted many years back ).



Along with some raw responses taken from JBL's EDS sheets.



Rob implemented a 3-pole design that uses a 4mH coil ( amp side ) followed by a 52uF capacitor ( that goes to ground ) with a 2mH coil connecting directly to the woofers + input connector ( whatever color that actually is ).
- His stated values somewhat electrically start to mimic the EQing effects of the kick-plate ( here, the "bump-filter" center can be clearly seen in the included impedance graph in the simulation ) .

For the horn circuit I would first try the Nelson Pass designed circuit ( even though it was auditioned for the the HL92 long horn, my simulations show it'll work quite well for the shorter HL91 ).
- If you desire, you can reduce the primary 22uF cap ( C3 ) to around 18uF ( gaining a bit extra//mostly un-needed protection unless you're cranking it > without losing the magic the circuit was designed around > which is "low-Q" filtering ).

If you play your stereo loud then the Nelson Pass circuit is most likely not for you ( since it takes the horn down to 700hz and will definitely stress that nice aluminum diaphragm ).

My sims suggest the user should connect both the woofer and horn circuit using the same positive polarity ( whatever colors on the drivers that translates to ).
- This difference from the Nelson Pass recommendation results from the horn ( and therefore Acoustic Center ) being shorter by 3 inches.

Blue = 2216nd , Red = 2231H ( both are taken from JBL EDS sheets )





The L200 enclosure with the 4" deep protruding sides has a bunch of unavoidable cavitation//deflection effects that could use a bit of extra EQ boost from the woofers lowpass ( somewhat like Rob executed ).

The coil values listed here for the S4700 network are obviously wrong ( perhaps they're even a deliberate mis-direction for a current product ).

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hi Earl,

Thanks for contributing some ideas.

I’m a little delayed with rain for outside measurements of the horn, the slot radiator and the 2216 driver in an enclosure that closely resembles the L200 dimensions. I also have a renovation.

From a diy perspective the user can implement a very simple crossover such as a first order and experiment.

However, with the limitations of this type of driver combination previously outlined in a paper by David Smith, D B Keele , JR and John Eargle some more thought, measurements and assessment of the crossover is worthwhile with powerful CAD loudspeaker software. Back then crossover designs were iterative using empirical techniques and theory. So with real measurement data and advanced software the door is open to further exploration.

There are also the physical problems such as the 150-160mm offset of the drive voice coils. Just how audible these physical differences are is another matter. The Altec 604E had similar offset with the woofer and concentric horn driver and innovative solutions were found by Floyd and Toole in the early 80’s. Of course if you want to you can apply corrections in dsp and come up with something too. But sometimes the method creates other problems and complexity.

I don’t think there is any hurry. As l pointed out to Patrick Bateman over on Diyaudio.com. Supposition makes for interesting discussions. But a belief held without proof or certain knowledge; an assumption or hypothesis is dangerous ground to be walking on in loudspeaker crossover network design.

Ian

[Mr. Widget]

So with real measurement data and advanced software the door is open to further exploration.

Absolutely, but every speaker is a different beast.

A few years back I wanted to see if I could make my Project Widget loudspeakers work with a single amp instead of being tri-amped with a passive super tweeter. I took a series of precise measurements with CLIO and worked with Rob using LEAP to model a 4-way passive network for my Project Widget loudspeakers. The networks that Rob and LEAP suggested were fairly complex, but I built them on a test bed with very high quality caps and coils and began exploring. I could never get the speakers to sound as good as they do in their tri-amped configuration.

FWIW: I also ran them fully quad-amped at one point, but found that to my ears and to the ears of others who listened to them at length there was no audible benefit with the quad amp configuration.


Widget

[Earl K]

Hi Earl,
<<<SNIP>>>

So with real measurement data and advanced software the door is open to further exploration.

Ian

Ian,

That inferred assumption that I'm not working from real measurement data and advanced software is pretty off-base.

I am using good software and respectable//repeatable files

Granted I'm working with borrowed files ( traces ), but they are mostly all CLIO generated.

My work builds upon the very solid foundation of others ( Rob Hamel + Zilch + Giskard ).

Here's one such file used;



How else is one going to obtain such a large representative sampling of this classic driver ( le85 ) ?

The horn driver file that I'm using is serial number 22222 ( as chosen by Zilch ) .

Since I have only a single 2420 diaphragm in a 2470 body ( + that diaphragm needs refitting ), I choose to use Zilchs traces for their greater accuracy and consistency.

Do you have 6 le85's to choose from ?

FWIW, I measured the AC offset ( Z offset ) at around 5.8" with REW > using a 2425/2307 as a standin for the 2420 ( the top-plates//VC are at the same depth ) and a 2225H for the woofer.
- Measurement was on-axis to the horn throat + the "Center 2 Center" of the 2 drivers was 14" .
- The biggest "iffyness" here is "how divergent is the Acoustic Center of the aluminum coiled 2216nd ( with it's dual coils ) is when compared to the single copper-coil of 22xx series of drivers?"

Here's a look at the acoustic summing that Zilch achieved with his "Keeper" 3-way using his 4507 cabinet ( somewhat like your stated intention of using a substitute cabinet ).



That " Keeper" network is this one ( the polarity of the horn driver needs to be flipped compared to the woofer );




Using Zilch generated, plus JBL EDS files, along with the approximated values of S4700 woofer network, I'm able to produce these results ( applying the 5.8" Z-offset figure and changing some of the LC values in the Keeper network );
- it seems that Zilch used around 9" for an acoustic offset which I believe explains the need to flip the polarity of the horn-driver.



Here's the Nelson Pass bandpass married to RobH's lowpass values;



As earlier mentioned ( to the OP ), I would first build-up the Nelson Pass variant for a listen (if loud playback levels aren't needed > one can see the low 700hz crossover point which will stress that diaphragm if played loud ).
- The Zilch 3-pole variant offers the higher 900hz point ( but his LC values don't agree with my sims > unless I increase the "Z" offset. Therefore, one would need to experiment some by substituting LC values to see which values work best at crossover.