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Thread: JBL 4429 ANd MC 275 MKII

  1. #31
    Senior Member davidpou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    David on the topic of alternative loudspeakers. Over the years l have corresponded with some loudspeaker builders in Paris
    Really? i want names cause for my simple E9 shortcircuit i had 4 refusals to look at the 4430 crossover! And this intervention on the N3134 was about puting them back to stock after they have been massacred by a crock who took 600 € for that dirty work.
    Not mentionning the amp techs here I could detail the incomptence of 6 to 7 of them around me. If ever i have an issue with the Mc it will go in germany or in the states no matter what it costs for shiping.

    Look, if i don't have the money to make hifi gear roll, and to have a room , i might just learn something. That is what i tried to do 7 years ago by building a frankenstein JBL with LE14 A and 2426H. Just training;
    I bought the DAT from parts express and started to get my real thiele ans Small parameters in order to buold the box. 3 to 4 of them were not to JBL specs.... pb with the second hand woofer ? problem with the tool ? When you start questionning your measuring instruments it s game over.
    then there was this box simulation software. After 700 € of woodcuting to the simulated response, i built the damn thing. never did in real life what was on the screen. something i did wrong with the app ? the app it self ? I'll never knew. even the vent length did not do...
    All i know is Richard here laugthing at my realisation calling it made by "el chipo"...
    Now, call me stuborn, i would like to learn the passive crossover design software. With what hope of success considering my mediocre results in the past ?

    I have spent the last six years with my son on the moto track. all my time and money went to his sport, there was nothing left for hifi but crumbs,
    he stopped 3 mont ago and my hobby is resurfacing. let's see how it goes.
    To return to the monthy pithon and the holly graal, : as every one knows, the path is the goal.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by jblguy View Post
    Haha so what your saying is money doesn't make ya smart....just rich. Twits of the year contest anyone?
    Thatís your interpretation. I roll my eyes on the American 1 % rich. For those onlookers from the other three quarters of the globe they will appreciate people buy things for status, hero purchases and peer rivalry. Unfortunately they feel so entitled that the gene should just come out of bottle for them without at least taking a bow on their magic carpet. Then they go through the disappointment phase and cry like a Princess. Mummy it really hurtsÖAnd they are not wrong. They are never wrong. Itís like a child with a toy when it doesnít please them.

    Iíll say this now. Don McRichie put on a real performance when he first set up his new M2ís. The M2 didnít please him and he carried on like sook. It was like child pissed off with its new toy. The world had come to an end. But he was the expert. Was he what. After a big struggle he finally figured it out. Thatís not being a twit. As David said itís like feeding caviar to the pigs. Youíve either got the genes for or you havenít.

    Thereís no respect for it with some buyers and thatís okay. We let them screw it up and we leave them to it because we know we canít help them.

  3. #33
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    Time to put the black umbrella up.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    Speaking of twits of the year!!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVYA3oTG8fg


    Rob
    So your saying Donís a twit. Lolllllllllllll

  5. #35
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    Hey David. It's just a hobby. Only thing required is Money. Keep us in the loop with your 4429 adventures. Don't know that a $10,000 dollar plus Mark Levinson will make them sound like a million bucks, but some say it will. If I had the will to tweek them I would, but probably they are worth more in the stock form as a re-seller. I think I would throw a Zonker92 charge coupled L300 crossover in them and reverse the mid horn in phase. Might be the cats meow! Ian will surely have a cow with such a rash and untested fling such as that. Ha, Ha.

    Regards,

    John

  6. #36
    Senior Member davidpou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlcnm View Post
    Hey David. It's just a hobby. Only thing required is Money. Keep us in the loop with your 4429 adventures. Don't know that a $10,000 dollar plus Mark Levinson will make them sound like a million bucks, but some say it will. If I had the will to tweek them I would, but probably they are worth more in the stock form as a re-seller. I think I would throw a Zonker92 charge coupled L300 crossover in them and reverse the mid horn in phase. Might be the cats meow! Ian will surely have a cow with such a rash and untested fling such as that. Ha, Ha.

    Regards,

    John
    Sure he will and quite some others....

    When the 4430 came in, they replaced the 4312A. I was blown away from the first seconds.
    When the 4429 came in I was skeptical. And I still am. Why ?

    Because among all the qualities one asks to a speaker, timbre is counting for 50 % for me. All other qualities have to share the remaining: Spacialisation, dynamics, precision, deep bass, etcÖ

    To me, the 4429 are doing everything better than the 4430 but true, honest timbre. I am so sorry to write this as I thought they would be the ultimate speakers fullfilling my modest ambition.
    In that they donít blow away the 4430. Nor for spacialisation, or width of the scene. (ok not the same size).
    True they beat them in dynamics (huge factor I admit), more extended and refined highs, clarity, and precision or details. The copy of the 4430 xover I made with Jantzen and Mundorf components is doing some good to the 4430, making it more hifi or even completely hifi (not as opposed to midfi, but as opposed to pro audio).
    On the tennis court it would be a 6/4 or 6/3 set. Not a humiliating 6/0.

    So here I am with my most cherished parameter being the spoiled one, to my ear. I wanted to get deeper into vinyl, and they really didnít impress me when using the technics SL1200G.

    Ah sure with the Crown and playing modern RnB, ďneo soulĒ, and techno it is more than fine. All are musics where timbre is not the main attraction.

    But, in order to test the ďnot being used to the new soundĒ hypothesis, I decided to spend 10 days with the 4429 only, and then to come back to 4430. If I feel relief, the 4429 will go. If the not so good sides of the 4430 shows up, then the 4430 will go.

    PS I said mark Levinson, because I fantasy about the brand. But I really meant a warm solid-state amp. The 275 is not well know for its tight bass, and with the 4429 woofer it does a bit of scrambling down lowÖ The crown is not well known for liquid mids and highsÖ. So I meant that to enjoy fully the potential of the speakers, I d be better of with a good ss. No advertising intended.

  7. #37
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    Hi David,


    What cartridge and turntable are you currently using?

    One hypothesis is the more accurate 4429 is allowing the warts from your cartridge through.

    My own observations from upgrading from a FR 12 arm + FR mc301 on an ancient Kenwood KD650 to a VPI Prime required a recalibration of my auditory perceptions. I use a Kesiki Purple Heart or an Ortofon Black cartridge.

    The sensation was like moving in closer and closer to the music on a huge sound stage. With everything like your loudspeaker/ listening positioning and driver levels trimmed to be in perfect balance the ear / brain has very little work to do with a really good source and amplification.

    What else is there to fix?

    My approach is to incrementally remove the problems. These are the annoyances like human mistakes. The annoyances btw are not the same things that please you, That is the purity of the source .for example, With each step the listening gets easier and more enjoyable. Most of these problems are not expensive to fix. It does require a discipline not to go to a hifi shop and change out major components like your loudspeakers unless you hate them. Btw you should only have one pair of loudspeakers in your room at any one time. A larger loudspeaker in the room will generally give the visual indication to your ears itís got to be better than a small loudspeaker.

    I recommend you move the 4430ís out for 3-5 days and see what happens.

    Yoda

  8. #38
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    Nothing like the fun of ripping the bra off of a Debutant! I love the moron that runs himself over....too funny.
    Loved the Pythons since I was 15. Cheese shop anyone?...lol

  9. #39
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Hello David

    When the 4430 came in, they replaced the 4312A. I was blown away from the first seconds.
    When the 4429 came in I was skeptical. And I still am. Why ?
    How many years have you had the 4430's? Sounds like you have a "house sound" that you are used to. If you have it I would give the 4429's some more time. I would also experiment with placement as I doubt the same placement will work equally well with both speakers.

    Because among all the qualities one asks to a speaker, timbre is counting for 50 % for me. All other qualities have to share the remaining: Spacialisation, dynamics, precision, deep bass, etc…

    To me, the 4429 are doing everything better than the 4430 but true, honest timbre. I am so sorry to write this as I thought they would be the ultimate speakers fullfilling my modest ambition.
    Timbre is kind of a vague description. Sounds like you have a shift in octave to octave balance. One thing for sure is if the low bass on the 4429's is significantly different that will change the whole perception of speaker balance. If that's the case why do you have the compression drivers wide open?? I would shift placement for a bit more LF support and experiment with the HF levels.

    Best of luck!

    Rob
    "I could be arguing in my spare time"

  10. #40
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    If they were going to be the same there wouldn’t be any point.

    On the other hand:

    I know David has tried some different positions and David was kind enough to send me a video link of the system. My impression is that David is experiencing some of the difference as an annoyance. That’s a Problem. If there is something in the 4430 that just works in David’s room then that is the key to David’s enjoyment.

    That being the case if after a period David still prefers the 4430 l would be advocating a 2216nd to replace the 2235H with a new passive pass low pass filter which l can engineer. That as an improvement will definitely add value with changing the system overall. Then perhaps later consider a Radian Be one inch or a Tad driver upgrade. An M2 clone is an alternative. We know this had bought joy to other 4430 owners.

    But any totally new loudspeaker is a risk in that it can be like throwing the baby out with the bath water. Until you get that “new loudspeaker” in your own room there is always a risk it won’t please you. We have seen this with the 4367 with other members. Sometimes it doesn’t work.

    The other thing is that unfortunately Greg’s no longer with JBL and someone else is cooking up these product revisions. So there’s not necessarily going to be consistency with anything else or or anything else historically. People at Harman come and go these days like birds in the wind. You need key people with a reasonable tenure in a business like this if you want a loyal following.

    The management at Harman are knuckleheads. If their reading this the Devil always shits on the biggest heap and he will keep shifting on the biggest heap because he enjoys it.

    Edit:

    Taking a more sympathetic view the 4430 is a 40+ year old design and it’s reasonable that JBL’s current crop of even the Blue Baffle monitors are going to have different traits to the 4430 bi radial system.

    When l first heard JBL’s contemporary blue baffle systems in Tokyo back in 2008 there were distinct differences compared to the 43XX series. They had a faster more taught bass to suit the Japanese market but still had that live jbl house sound.

    The K2 systems like the 9800 were more hifi with a more polite presentation.

    I lot of people l have met still prefer the 43XX presentation. I think those extended bass woofers portray linearity in the low end that isn’t there by design with the more contemporary systems that are voiced to have a smooth in room bass response. The 43XX were tuned to be maximally flat in a studio environment sofit mounted or up on a stand ad used in Abby Road Studios. On the floor in a home domestic environment the 43XX are bass heavy and people assume that’s the JBL bass.

    It’s all relative to your learned experience.
    Last edited by Ian Mackenzie; 06-29-2022 at 10:28 PM. Reason: Additional information

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlcnm View Post
    Hey David. It's just a hobby. Only thing required is Money. Keep us in the loop with your 4429 adventures. Don't know that a $10,000 dollar plus Mark Levinson will make them sound like a million bucks, but some say it will. If I had the will to tweek them I would, but probably they are worth more in the stock form as a re-seller. I think I would throw a Zonker92 charge coupled L300 crossover in them and reverse the mid horn in phase. Might be the cats meow! Ian will surely have a cow with such a rash and untested fling such as that. Ha, Ha.

    Regards,

    John
    You mean crowing donít you. Is that what l do. The real work goes on directly with those invested in this interest group. You wonít get to read about it here.


    You wrote elsewhere :

    [I have one of the few pair of 4429's in the USA. Recently, I have developed a new appreciation for these replacements for the 4425. In the past I have always placed these speakers with the horns pointed towards the listener. Recently I tried repositioning them strait ahead. The imaging improved and the mid-range seams a lot smoother. The 29's don't quite make it into the 30Hz range, but probably into the mid 40's. I also have a pair of 4425's. The horns in these speakers are very flat. The imaging is also quite good, however, IMO the 2214 woofers have a problem making the connect with the horns. The crossover may be too high for that bass driver. The 4429 does a better job of connecting with the mid-horns. Crossover in the 4429 is 700Hz while the 4425 is 1200Hz.]


    I note in the 4429 manual that JBL do not recommend toeing in the 4429 towards the listener.

    That could be useful to David.

  12. #42
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    Ian. One thing for sure, I was a little rash about a replacement crossover for the 4429 as it has a constant directivity horn. Definitely needs the dome mass dominance compensation circuitry of the 4425. Would not want to deal with that design in the world of the charge coupling designs. I have moments of great listening sessions with the 4429s. They will play loud with very low perceived distortion. With well recorded music, i.e. Chesky recordings and others they sound very good. They do exhibit their best imaging with the mid horns faced so their cutoff is the middle of my head . In other words, no cross talk to the outside ear. I received a CD from PS Audio today, "Mini Brazilian Beasts". It is obvious this recording was mixed on very similar monitors as the 4429s. Sounds really well recorded and mixed on them. Great dynamics, no excess bass, and realistic sounding instruments.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnlcnm View Post
    Ian. One thing for sure, I was a little rash about a replacement crossover for the 4429 as it has a constant directivity horn. Definitely needs the dome mass dominance compensation circuitry of the 4425. Would not want to deal with that design in the world of the charge coupling designs. I have moments of great listening sessions with the 4429s. They will play loud with very low perceived distortion. With well recorded music, i.e. Chesky recordings and others they sound very good. They do exhibit their best imaging with the mid horns faced so their cutoff is the middle of my head . In other words, no cross talk to the outside ear. I received a CD from PS Audio today, "Mini Brazilian Beasts". It is obvious this recording was mixed on very similar monitors as the 4429s. Sounds really well recorded and mixed on them. Great dynamics, no excess bass, and realistic sounding instruments.

    I think you nailed it.

    Also a careful read of reviewer comments

    https://www.cnet.com/reviews/jbl-mod...eakers-review/

    "Starting with classical music, it soon became obvious that the speakers were enormously powerful and capable of producing close to concert-realistic levels. On the orchestral strings, though, they seemed a bit harsh. This wasn't a function of volume. Time and again, we turned up these speakers and we ran out of courage before they seemed anywhere near their limits (remembering we had well over 200 clean watts of power available to each). So it wasn't that.

    We thought perhaps that they may have been emphasising the mid-treble a little, bringing forth an inherent stridency in much orchestral recording, so we ran a quick frequency-response measurement, and they delivered a near clinically smooth result.

    Then we realised the likely explanation: these speakers have not been tuned to produce a euphonious sound. They have been engineered to produce an accurate sound. They are, after all, called "Studio Monitors". Where many modern speakers have a slight mellow quality that smoothes strings, these delivered them as they were recorded."

    What David is hearing is described in the above review. (classical music - strings). There no point sugar coating what might be the reason. As you say on the better audiophile recordings they listenable. The 4429 are set up to be critical monitor speakers (apparently).


    Case closed

  14. #44
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    David. If I were in Paris I would pick up your pair of 4430s. Upgrade them with the drop in 2216nd's. I must admit, I also really like those old constant directive horns. I have a pair of 4425's with 2426's and Radian diaphragms. Very nice sounding! You probably should hang on to those 4430's.

  15. #45
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    I notice JBL Professional still use that baby Cheeks horn in their Cinema Series. I thought that horn was long out of production.
    https://jblpro.com/en-US/products/3678
    What horn number is it now? I have a couple with the metal detachable throats.

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