I have found that the ClarityCaps have a bit darker sound than some of the others (Audyn Q4, Aerovox) that would probably work well with the titanium driver. They are also fairly cheap on ebay. But..., they are HUGE!
I think that you are overly concerned about the small differences in the dc resistance of the inductors. You also need to realize that an air core inductor will use much more wire than a slugged inductor so should up the wire gauge a bit from stock to compensate accordingly.
Toddalin, thank you for pointing that out. I have no experience with smaller value resistors and I am chomping at the bit to get all the parts to get this project going. I was not familiar with a Mega Ohm resistor and failed to get the right google which said mega was 1000 instead of 3 million!. Anyway, I am fortunate enough to have people like you who can set me straight on the right resistor. Thank you for that my friend! Also, Ian, I would be happy to supply you with a bottle of Knob Creek. You mentioned you visited Bardstown, Kentucky awhile back? I actually now live in Kentucky having relocated from a bigger city several years ago. I live out in the country in a small town that has no traffic signals and I have some land and room to breathe. Come to think of it, I have room to let my JBL's breathe and can hit 100 dB's continuous with 110 dB peaks without bothering any neighbors. It can go louder without any harshness but I am trying to preserve my hearing (and my marriage). I wanted to upload a picture of my rig with the 18" subwoofer and 4430's but go figure, I can't figure out how to do that either yet. I think I can handle the wiring now that I know it all goes back to one battery. However, I was thinking, since I am doing this, I will separate the woofer crossover from the horn crossover and bi amp using the four posts on my amps, unless that is not recommended. If I do this then I would need (2) 9 volt batteries for each speakers independent hi/low networks? I am all ears and if you think keeping it all as one network then that is the way I will go. Now comes the final decision of caps. I have used Solen's in the past with Polk Audio signature SDA's, Bozak B4000 modern symphonies and ESS AMT-4 speakers. All to good effect. But, Clarity caps keep coming up. And if I do Clarity caps bypassed with Auricaps then that adds additional work. Plus, I am assuming you don't add the bypass caps to the charge coupled 9v battery, just add to either end of the coupled series caps at the far ends. Whew, my head started spinning on that one. So bottom line, can I get a great result with the Solen's or should I soldier on through and do the Clarity caps with bypass? I am willing to spend the extra money if it will get me to the world class sound that eagerly awaits! Also, thanks for your patience with all my questions!
Hi Dave,
If your power amp had 4 binding posts per channel then l think you are referring to what is termed “Bi - Wiring. This is where the full passive crossover is used but separate wires lead back to the power amplifier for the input to each low and hi pass filters
I would only consider this a virtue if you have longer than 2 metre cables to the loudspeakers. Short stout loudspeaker cables and high quality binding posts and spades with large contact area are important in ensuring you have a low contact resistance with hi current transfer across the contact area. It’s also reliable.
On the capacitors l would go with the Solen 250V Fast Caps and Charge Couple. Use a single battery if you are using a common power amplifier to each loudspeaker. You will most likely be very happy. If that option is unavailable to you consider the Clarity Cap and the Auricap combo.
On the resisters to the battery anything from 2.2 meg ohms to 3.3 meg ohms will work fine.
The low dcr on the woofer inductor is a virtue and will make your outlay on the binding posts worthwhile.
Ian, thanks again for correcting me. Yes, big difference between bi wiring and bi amping. My mom always used to tell me that I wasn't the brightest bulb in the pack and not the sharpest tool in the shed but if I said please and thank you enough, people would take pity on me and help me. Seriously though, I feel like I am a young Luke Skywalker and you are Yoda and we are at the swampy lake trying to raise the X-Wing Falcon out of the muck. Except this time, the young Luke might have a chance. Much thanks Master for your help and patience. I did indeed order inductors as you suggested and especially the Erse Super Q's for the 2.5 oHm values. I got all inductors for under $100 from Parts Express. I guess the Super Q's are on backorder but were supposed to be in today on 11/5. Who knows, I thought Erse were made in the U.S. so probably not held up somewhere on a dock or slow boat from China? And now I know that Solen's are the way to go so I am going to look into ordering direct from Solen. Probably off topic here but I wanted to mention that I have found a bit of upper base extension by blocking off one port of the 4430's. Had my wife crochet a 4" round web around some acousta stuff. Very subtle but seems to make a difference. Also, I wanted to mention that these speakers achieved the WAF because I don't just listen to them loud, I can listen to them at sub 70 dB levels at night and they still retain their definition and detail. At one point I was going to sell them and my wife said, no, why don't you hold on to them. Ha, that says a lot! Anyway, so where do I deliver the Knob Creek? You have deserved it! Or if you are up for it, how about a phone call? Finally I clicked on a link of the pictures of the JBL speaker Hall of Fame from your posts. Holy Crap, I thought I was at the Kendrick website. Man, if I ever win the lottery, I will buy all of them! Are all those your speakers? I am greatly humbled and awed at the same time. Cheers!
Hello young Skywalker,
Below is a drafted up schematic that should take your 4430 system well past light speed!
Don’t tell anyone l told you so because they might feel precious over their stock 4430’s.
Some notes for your mission should you choose to accept it.
1. The variable resisters are in fact two separate mono 8 ohm Lpads.
The 30R variable resister is the parallel arm of an 8R Lpad. See the terminal numbers for correct connection. Not it is wired as a variable 30R resister. I suggest you use a multi meter to verify you have the correct terminals on the Lpads. Many Star Troopers have fallen foul of incorrect Lpad wiring.
2. The 8R variable resister is wired up as a constant impedance 8R Lpad. See the terminal numbers for correct connection.
3. You will need to order 4 mono 8R Lpads,
4. The drivers are wired up in phase (electrical). The original network was designed by David Smith. After much experimentation this network was chosen as it offers some midrange (presence) level adjustment around 2,000 hertz and a high frequency (brilliance) extension adjustment above 10,000 hertz.
5. The charge coupled caps are simply wired in series. The +Ve connection of the 2.2 meg ohm resisters goes to the +Ve terminal of a nine volt battery. The -Ve terminal of the 9 volt battery is connected to the -ve / ground connection of both the low and high pass filters. If you can’t get 4uF used 3.9uF. This is perfectly acceptable. If you have problems ask for help.
6. Allow 15 minutes for the connection of the 9 volt battery to take full effect.
7. The conjugate network is to flatten the rising electrical impedance of the woofer past the crossover point. The capacitor can be a non polarised electrolyte type to reduce cost.
The resisters should be wire wound ceramic types or Mills power resisters with a minimum power rating as shown. I suggest you use Mills resisters in the high frequency network as they are lauded to have superior subjective characteristics.
8. General Construction Notes:
I suggest once you get all the parts to lay them out on an A3 sheet of paper just like the schematic.
Then mark up the paper sheet with the position of the parts. Cut a sheet of plywood or Mdf with your powers to size and use the paper outline as a template for mounting the parts. I suggest you use both 5 mm zip ties and hot melt glue to fasten the parts to the crossover boards. Mount the ERSE Super Q inductor well away from the air core inductors to avoid cross talk. Use tag strips to terminate the parts with flying leads. Use 7.5 amp stranded copper wire. Use spaghetti heat shrink tube to insulate exposed connections to avoid short circuits. I recommend a 60 watt soldering iron for this work to heat the joins quickly enough and to avoid dry joints. A 25 watt iron is not going to work properly.
David Smith designed the 4430-4435 networks and went on to design a number of loudspeaker systems including those for Snell Acoustics. The 4430-4435 were largely the work of John Eargle and Don Keele. Greg Timber’s later designed the JBL 4425 monitor.
Hi Ian (Master Yoda),
My beloved tripod droid was not able to project the holographic image of the plans as when I clicked on the attachment, I just received a picture of a paperclip. Then CP3O was babbling something in the best English accent his A.I self was able to muster but alas, I could not get to the projections. I will be sending some wupiupi or perhaps nova crystal your way and perhaps that will unlock the secret plans. I will most likely require some additional instructions as the l-pad instructions through me for a bit of a loop. Something that is readily available at parts express? And then there is that electrolytic cap somewhere in the mix. I am taking a deep breath and calling on the force for patience and determination! But the force has told me to trust, and that I will do so be on the lookout for the wupiupi.
Thank you,
David Mark
The crossover schematic displays for me. Perhaps check your user settings on the forum or maybe a different browser. BTW, great inductor symbols Ian. What software is that?
Originally Posted by Dave 2021
Try this...,
On the picture of the paperclip. "right click" your mouse and select "open image in a new tab" and do so. This is what I have to do to see my pictures when posting JBL Heritage images in the AudioKarma forum.
Thanks, I tried that first thing and nothing. No worries, I have the plans to destroy the Death Star but now am held up for a considerable time on parts. 2.5 mH Super Q inductors expected in sometime mid to late December. Everything else is ordered so I will start constructing a bit at a time as parts come in. I have rebuilt several crossovers with new inductors, resistors and caps for several speakers including the JBL L200t3's (the ones that made me decide to go overboard and get the 4430's). Oh well, everything in due time and patience. Of course I could have listened to Darth Vader and gone his route with non charge coupled capacitors and used foil inductors and Jupiter & Teflon capacitors, but I never have been one to bow down to the dark side and "You do it my way or else!" In the part of the galaxy I am from, we still fight for freedom of choice and freewill! So now my enemy is time and I will meet that enemy with the greatest light saber I have which is patience and forbearance! All in good time this will be done. I may be silent for awhile but you shall hear from me again!
It's taken me 4 years and countless itterations to create a set of crossovers I was happy/satisfied with for my creation that uses JBL 2241H (18"), JBL 2251J (~10"), Great Heil AMT. I used Audyn Q4 caps and am quite happy with them.
Hey Man, that is an awesome system. From what I hear, the JBL 2251J is one of the absolute best in mid range reproduction and realism. And I have a pair of the Heil AMT's as well. Talk about sound at the speed of light! I would love to recreate a system like you have. I use an 18" (Eminence) sub to augment my 4430's so I can only imagine what type of sonic bliss you are experiencing with the 2241's! When I was talking about Darth Vader, I was talking about an individual who is not on this forum who is the owner of a company that sells a certain type of capacitor ( and is very popular with the Klipsch community and I have used extensively in the past projects I have done) He wanted me to send my crossover network to him in the mail and then he would tell me what parts would work best. When I told him I wanted to eliminate the internal/external crossover switch, he became angry and "if I wanted to do it my way" then I was wasting his time. I have spent a pretty penny in the past several years buying parts from him and then he went ballistic on me. Greg Timbers mentioned that the internal/external crossover switch "was not that great", so I wanted to go purist and eliminate it from the entire crossover network. That is the guy I am referring to as "Darth Vader". There is no doubt in my mind that your system would kick my system in the hind end in just about every category. Even with my eventual improved crossover network. My drivers simply cannot compete. Perhaps one day I will be able to do what you have done, but for now, I am trying to improve on what I have and what has been available to me.
It looks like you have been able to match the output/speed of the Heil with the mid woofer and blended it perfectly with the 18" woofer. In my mind that is what I always wanted to do, but I was going to go with a Heil AMT, a vintage Electro voice VMR (vented mid range used in the interface D) , a 10" woofer like you have and then an 18" or 21" high efficiency(98 dB+) woofer. Alas, in order to do that, I first have to build a separate living/listening enclosure to house my listening room. There is no way I could have that system and not totally lose my sense of perspective and possibly explode the house from SPL's. Not to mention what my better half would do. She tells me I can do that project when I have a building approximately 100 yards from the main house. It will be a dream or possibility for now. First I must complete my mission and see what all the fuss is about with charged coupled crossovers. Seems to help with horns that cover a broad spectrum of frequencies is what I have heard. I have been interested in the charged couple crossover for about 10 years now. Does it really make a big difference? That is the question I feel compelled to answer for myself by actually doing it even if I reveal to the world that I am the speaker "Forest Gump"! Thanks or all the help and feedback to this point. When I first started this thread it was all crickets.
I always wondered what would happen if a person took a Heil air motion transformer and connected it to the 4430 horn? Looks like the aperture originally designed for the compression driver actually would almost encompass the slot accordion pleats of the Heil drivers. It even has a bell shape that one could cut the inner part of the horn away to fit the large magnetic structure of the Heil. Any way, sure somebody has been there and done that? I also tried at one point to match my Heil AMT's with my rig. Never pulled it off with my JBL L200t3 but when I added it to my Technic 7070's (recapped, re inducted, re resistored , and Heil going from 4200 Hz to 20k plus,it took the listening experience to a whole new level. And when I paired it with an Electrovoice ST-350 with the vented midrange, it sounded very balanced, dynamic and presented a very nice 3D sound stage. I always wanted to get the Heil in the mix but with the 4430 speakers but I cannot get it to blend.
I had 4430s and the L200s with the 2235 woofer, 2420 driver on the long L300 horn and the 2405 slot with custom crossovers.
The 4430s will easily out image/soundstage the L200/300s. But I didn't care for the sound of the 2425 titanium driver as they are harsher than the 2420/2405 and sold the 4430s (through I do have 2425s on butt cheeks in my four surround speakers).
For example, with the L200s, you point to the general area of the saxophone drawing a circle in the air. With the 4430s you point toward the saxophone. With the Mermans, you point at the guy playing the saxophone and can also hear the guy playing the trumpet 3 feet to the left and 2 feet behind and feel as though you could walk between them in space.
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