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Thread: JBL 4430 Speakers

  1. #61
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    Smile IT can be done but...

    It can be done with a current source type of amplifier like some of Nelson Pass First Watt amplifiers.
    But that’s an expensive stretch.

    [/QUOTE]

    It can be done but then one would be missing out on the strongest part of the 4430's and that my friend is feeding them gigantic amounts of clean power. I think Nelson Pass is indeed a legend in the audio community. But, the First Watt amps will only suffice at low to moderate listening levels. I feel the 4430's need lots of clean power and with that, they are able to produce concert levels of distortion free music reproduction. I like listening to them at low levels too, but I love the way they can hit with dynamic realism when called upon. I can fairly easily hit 100 dB+ continuous with insane peaks hitting 112 dB+ in my listening room. I believe they can get one very close to what the artist intended for their listeners to hear. I would love to hear them through one of the bigger Pass Labs amps you have. I bet that combo sounds amazing! You are friends with Nelson so tell him I will review a pair of his mono block amps with these speakers !

  2. #62
    Senior Member markd51's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave 2021 View Post
    It can be done with a current source type of amplifier like some of Nelson Pass First Watt amplifiers.
    But that’s an expensive stretch.
    It can be done but then one would be missing out on the strongest part of the 4430's and that my friend is feeding them gigantic amounts of clean power. I think Nelson Pass is indeed a legend in the audio community. But, the First Watt amps will only suffice at low to moderate listening levels. I feel the 4430's need lots of clean power and with that, they are able to produce concert levels of distortion free music reproduction. I like listening to them at low levels too, but I love the way they can hit with dynamic realism when called upon. I can fairly easily hit 100 dB+ continuous with insane peaks hitting 112 dB+ in my listening room. I believe they can get one very close to what the artist intended for their listeners to hear. I would love to hear them through one of the bigger Pass Labs amps you have. I bet that combo sounds amazing! You are friends with Nelson so tell him I will review a pair of his mono block amps with these speakers ![/QUOTE]

    About all I can add, and say, is, "you're darn tootin".

    I initially powered my pair with a McIntosh MC-2105 Amp for a few months. Sure, they sounded nice. The 2105 is a nice warm rich sounding amp.

    Then I bought the Bryston Monoblocks. Not good at first, the Brystons needed a hell of a lot of time for break in oddly. Like almost 200 hours of play, and further burn in. Sound was very "thin".
    The Mac was a better Amp until the Brystons settled down, and "warmed up" some.

    It's still a very neutral sounding Amp, I wouldn't call their sound "warm", but they aren't strident, harsh, shrill, raw, or unrefined.

    Bench tested at the factory at 676/674watts at 8ohms, there's surely no shortage of power, and I once tested that power on two separate occasions, and yeah, you're hearing a system that would sound much better in a much much larger room, like 25'x 40', just insanity in a normal sized Living Room!

    But I did also recognize the noise floor dropped quite dramatically, that I didn't need in 99.9 percent of my listening sessions to need 100db plus to feel "wholly fulfilled!"

    Everything then came together just so right, good cabling throughout, pretty decent digital and analog sources, music emerged from a very good level of "blackness".

    In very little way, did the 4430 then sound like some cheap Speaker.

    The Brystons handle the 4430's and never break a sweat. Most times, they are like Mac Amps, run fairly cool. But take a "trip to Mars", yeah they begin to warm up some, they didn't run Cooling Fins down both sides of the Amps for nothing. But surely not Krell FPB600, or Mark Levinson #33 hot, being that they are Class A/B.

    Pull out some vintage German Grammaphon (sp) records, I have a lot of them, was once a fantastic treasure find, and be immersed with such a smile at how pure, how clean, how I was hearing everything so coherently, and coming out of dead silence. Yeah, the Brystons have some very nice specs! They sent me a beauty of a pair of Amps, and am happy with what they do.

    And of course, the source components matter a lot. Garbage in, garbage out. I don't have real crazy money invested in my vinyl playback system, but will honestly say about $8,500 all toldName:  DSCN0531.JPG
Views: 1038
Size:  227.3 KB.

  3. #63
    Senior Member markd51's Avatar
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    Lots of little doo dads jacked the price with my vinyl front end, and much not seen in a mere picture.

    Like a $3,000 ZYX Cartridge, a $600 Isolation Base, Phono Stages, a $1,000 Phono Cable, on and on, I could spend a large paragraph with all the tweaks, upgrades, custom mods.

    As always, it's a continual "work in progress", is one ever done? LOL

    It was always my creed that to get the best sound from JBL, feed them a good clean signal from the Amps, and sources.
    That they are all influenced by the "quality" they get fed. And yeah, sometimes that can equate to $$$$$.

    No, the 4430 isn't a pair of $60,000-$70,000 Dynaudio Reference Speakers, but they can provide pretty good sound if you work at what comes before them.

    To add, this simple set-up I shown above is far from optimal, was just for illustrative purposes was all.

  4. #64
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    Any speaker is best driven by an amp with an output impedance as low as possible to get maximum control on the bass driver. Current source amplifiers, which means high output impedance, is BS. The lack of control results in something that might be felt as more bass, but this bass sound is without any definition and punch.

    Best regards!

  5. #65
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    Finally Finished

    I finally completed the crossovers for the 4430's!  I had been using the stock woofer inductors with the charge coupled configuration and new inductors for the horn.  After waiting for 3 months for the Erse Super Q's to come in, I decided to try the Jantzen "P" Core inductors which have a slightly lower DCR then the Q's.  I really wasn't expecting to be able to hear a difference but it was noticeable and tightened up the upper bass and lower midrange with improved clarity.  Who would have thought?  Then I noticed that the horn baffle board that connects to the main baffle was slightly pulled away and bowed out.  I removed the bi-radial horn diffuser and replaced the four screws with longer wood screws that were able to pull the pre baffle back into shape and fit securely to the main baffle.  And this made a detectable sonic difference as well.  The upper frequencies sounded  more defined and the projected image came more into focus.  Plus, the gap at the pre baffle may have been letting air out of the cabinet instead of through the ports.  So, all in all I am very pleased with all the modifications and feel the 4430's to be an excellent speaker capable of engaging sonic reproduction at both low and high volumes.  Now, if I could just get my hands on a pair of M9500's!  

  6. #66
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    About all I can add, and say, is, "you're darn tootin".

    I initially powered my pair with a McIntosh MC-2105 Amp for a few months. Sure, they sounded nice. The 2105 is a nice warm rich sounding amp.

    Then I bought the Bryston Monoblocks. Not good at first, the Brystons needed a hell of a lot of time for break in oddly. Like almost 200 hours of play, and further burn in. Sound was very "thin".
    The Mac was a better Amp until the Brystons settled down, and "warmed up" some.

    It's still a very neutral sounding Amp, I wouldn't call their sound "warm", but they aren't strident, harsh, shrill, raw, or unrefined.

    Bench tested at the factory at 676/674watts at 8ohms, there's surely no shortage of power, and I once tested that power on two separate occasions, and yeah, you're hearing a system that would sound much better in a much much larger room, like 25'x 40', just insanity in a normal sized Living Room!

    But I did also recognize the noise floor dropped quite dramatically, that I didn't need in 99.9 percent of my listening sessions to need 100db plus to feel "wholly fulfilled!"

    Everything then came together just so right, good cabling throughout, pretty decent digital and analog sources, music emerged from a very good level of "blackness".

    In very little way, did the 4430 then sound like some cheap Speaker.

    The Brystons handle the 4430's and never break a sweat. Most times, they are like Mac Amps, run fairly cool. But take a "trip to Mars", yeah they begin to warm up some, they didn't run Cooling Fins down both sides of the Amps for nothing. But surely not Krell FPB600, or Mark Levinson #33 hot, being that they are Class A/B.

    Pull out some vintage German Grammaphon (sp) records, I have a lot of them, was once a fantastic treasure find, and be immersed with such a smile at how pure, how clean, how I was hearing everything so coherently, and coming out of dead silence. Yeah, the Brystons have some very nice specs! They sent me a beauty of a pair of Amps, and am happy with what they do.

    And of course, the source components matter a lot. Garbage in, garbage out. I don't have real crazy money invested in my vinyl playback system, but will honestly say about $8,500 all toldName:  DSCN0531.JPG
Views: 1038
Size:  227.3 KB.[/QUOTE]


    Sorry it took me so long to comment but very nice system and those Brystons look awesome. And 676 watts at 8 ohms per mono block is like having front row tickets to the concert of your choice. And I totally agree that quality equipment upstream really makes a huge difference in what the 4430's sound like. My friend has a pair of 4430's that have been unmodified and he is running them on an old Sansui receiver hooked to an iPhone. Totally different sound and not very engaging.

  7. #67
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    Thanks for your comments and updates Dave.

    I know from experience how neat it is to hear differences in electronics ( good or bad ).

    It really does make audio life interesting ( btw; I biamp my home-brews with an older generation Bryston 2BLP-pro doing the top end duties > I like it a lot )..


  8. #68
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    Hi Dave,

    Thankyou for the update. This is a great journey and it’s really worked out nicely.

    You seem very happy with how it’s turning out. I

    I’m banked up with projects at the moment but a 4430 clone is on my bucket list. I have a set of 2344 horns and 2425 drivers in my stash and must get them out. Many years ago l had some 2344 horns running and l used to enjoy the James Morrison Live in Paris album. The 4430 horn / driver gives the trumpet a nice warm glow that is so engaging.

    Great thread.

    Please keep us informed of any further thought or developments.



    Ian

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl K View Post
    Thanks for your comments and updates Dave.

    I know from experience how neat it is to hear differences in electronics ( good or bad ).

    It really does make audio life interesting ( btw; I biamp my home-brews with an older generation Bryston 2BLP-pro doing the top end duties > I like it a lot )..

    Yes, thank you for the update... always interesting to follow people's journeys and watch the evolution.
    It is great to hear these success stories after folks put in so much effort into their systems.


    Widget

  10. #70
    Senior Member markd51's Avatar
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    I had to of course look back through this thread. Being a 4430 owner, can anyone blame me? LOL

    I know I speak flamboyantly at times, but good Amplification is one good place to start. JBL's, like many other world class speakers like quality power. I'm not so sure Guitar Center can provide me that.

    My greatest wish for JBL as I write this.

    That much, if not all major production returns to North America. Time to yank this company from the ICU.

  11. #71
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    Which pre amp power amp do you currently use?

  12. #72
    Senior Member markd51's Avatar
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    Edit-delete

  13. #73
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    Thank You!

    Hey Mark (Moe), how did you get your 4430 horns so shiny? I can see from the pictures that they are super minty. Did you use Armor All? Mine are nice but not that shiny. And after I looked at the picture you sent (I am taking the liberty to assume those are your speakers with the beautiful Bryston's) I moved my 4430's closer together and boom, I was brought even closer to musical bliss. I have found that the position of the 4430's in the room is extremely important to get the very best of what they can do.

    Much thanks to everyone who helped me this journey. Ian (Yoda) who heled me with the charged coupled crossover and walked me through the correct way to hook up the L-Pads. BTW, I have decided to keep the L-Pads in. Seems that I enjoy having the flexibility to adjust the high and mid frequencies depending on the local humidity, how the music was mastered, etc. It is Kay who corresponded immediately after I posted pictures of my crossover and brought up the whole L-Pad issue. Had it not been for her speedy response, I would probably still have them wired incorrectly and would be missing out on the joys of a properly connected L-Pad. Thank you Kay! Has anyone noticed that if you take the Bi-Radial horns and stand them upright and then (imagine) cutting a cross section of one half of the horn, that they are very similar to the symmetry of Don Keele's curved line arrays that were offered through Parts Express? I find that very interesting. I know Don designed the Bi-Radial horn for JBL.

    No one asked me, but I am using am Emotiva XMC-1 preamp which has Direc Live and 2 Emotiva XPA-1 monoblocks that do 600 watts each at 8 ohms (1000 at 4 ohms) in class A/B and with a switch on the front panel do 60 watts each in Class A. I have been amazed at how good these speakers do even at low volumes, like even 70 dB, they reproduce all the intricate details of music. Percussion instruments like drums, cymbals, bells etc, all sound like they are there in the room. Violins, pianos, guitar and wind instruments including trumpets and sax are all accurately produced like there is a live presentation. There is something these speakers do that I have not witnessed elsewhere in speakers in this price range (pre-owned). The timing and how each instrument arrives, presents outstanding spatial sound cues that give a sense of realism. I have had many speakers and attended several RMAF shows (when I lived in Colorado) and yes, there are some spectacular speakers out there. But I never thought I would be able to experience what I hear now in my own home for a tiny fraction of what some of the boutique speakers go for and that I was spell bound by. The funny thing is that I used to be totally opposed to horns because I thought they sounded shrill and harsh and too forward. The 4430's are never harsh and even at high volumes are well behaved. Part of the reason that I like to throw a lot of power at them is because they just keep sounding better and magnify the sound without distortion.

    But, in the beginning, they did not do what they do now. The modifications like new and lighter woofer cones, new speaker terminals for the horn and woofer (the stock ones are so bad I am wondering why JBL engineers allowed such an abomination), new charge couple crossover (including all new quality inductors) that totally by passes that stupid bi amp switch in the back, and new heavy gauge wire to the woofer and horn. I would love to hear from anyone else who has made these changes and what they are hearing. Add an 18" high efficiency subwoofer (mine is 99 dB) to the mix and the 4430's are very close to the 4435's but you can dial in the low bass by adjusting the subwoofer. I have found that is where most recordings differ, in the lower regions. So just by increasing the gain to the subwoofer through a remote control, I can dial in the bass sweet spot from my chair to adjust for any music I am listening to. Seems that the mid and high frequency stays fairly constant in most recordings and I can use the L-Pads if need be. I also use Direc Live and have the eq set with a Constant Directivity curve. This in itself is (I feel) absolutely necessary to get the right balance and output from the drivers and compensate for room interactions. It really helps and you can adjust the sound based on your preferences. The beautiful thing is that the sound signature of the 4430's is very easy to sculpt. They are somewhat neutral and accurate reproducers, designed that way, as studio monitors. The wide directivity of these speakers is something I value as being able to act as almost an electrostatic panel speaker but have the impact and dynamics of a more conventional speaker cone speaker I have owned no other speaker that has been this enjoyable! Thanks again to all those who helped and thank you for this Audio Heritage group!

  14. #74
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    Honestly, I can't recall using any products on the Horns, and if I did, it sure wasn't Armor All.

    I abandoned the use of Armor All back around 1990. I'll explain why. I once used it to shine up the Dashboard on my 6 month old 1990 Dodge-Cummins Pickup Truck, and the Armor All made the paint begin to badly flake off.

    Yes, how pathetic that this Dash was merely painted. Brought it to the dealer, they said there was one or two options at their supposed Paint-Trim Shop.

    Either totally remove the Dash and replace with new, and/or remove the Dash, re-paint, and replace. I chose neither option.

    Went to a auto paint supply shop, had a few aerosol spray cans mixed up of the correct color, as well as a can of Primer, and surface prep, but the paint was lacquer.

    I stripped the dash as far as possible, masked "everything" inside the vehicle, I spent a weekend just doing prep. The application came out beautiful, flawless, but dull, as that's typical of Lacquer.

    I knew I could not dare use another silicone product like Armor All, but a light went on, and what did I use?

    3 Coats of Future Floor Wax!

    The Dash looked fantastic, in fact too good, that sometimes the sun reflecting off of it, or reflecting onto the Windshield was blinding. Got in the habit of wearing Polarized Sun Glasses! But I sure got a lot of compliments at how nice it looked, and many would ask what I used?

    Or course I'd never use such on any other vehicle for such, but was forced to use such in this particular instance.

    If I did put something on those Horns, it was then likely a water based, and safer to use Trim-Interior Protectant from AutoGeek, perhaps their "Blackfire Brand", and not a petrol based product which Armor All and the like commonly are.

    Yeah, my speakers were really so clean, and un-molested when I got them, supposedly having never been used in a studio, yet bought by some high end company who used them in a Conference Room.

    Only thing I had to change, was they installed an attractive Silver-Grey but of course incorrect Grill Cover material, not stock of course, they had to go, and back in the day some years back I was able to acquire 2 yards of the correct authentic JBL Blue material from Zilch here (RIP)

    Hope my ramblings have some worth. LOL

  15. #75
    Senior Member markd51's Avatar
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    As for L-Pad settings, that's something I didn't toy with much with my 4430's, preferring to leave both set to flat.

    Listening room acoustics will of course be different in all applications to custom tailor their sound some.

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