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  1. #1
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    Horn/Waveguide Questions

    Hello all... Hope things are as well as possible given things.

    As with many, I've been left ample time to ponder things and have a few burning questions regarding horns and waveguides. Unfortunately my experiences are limited and getting a frame of reference for how things sound is tricky at best.

    Looking at the Yuichi A290 horn, the A480 and others of the sort has me wondering about how these sound compared to more modern waveguides like say the M2. I realize the horn and waveguide comparison is tricky, as they actually do different things in theory, but am wondering:

    - how does the sound of a Yuichi type horn compare to that of a CD waveguide like the one found on the much more modern M2?

    - I'm guessing directivity between the two types differ... Is there certain situations where one excels over the other?

    - always considered the 1.4-1.5" throat drivers a good compromise between LF extension and HF... But don't see them used in the Yuichi type horns very much. Is there a reason?

    - if going big like a 2", does the older 2445 function as we as more modern, non JBL offered drivers? Any merit to a coaxial in a Yuichi horn?

    I'm not planning anything yet but trying to navigate all the options and compromises sometimes gives me more questions than answers. I understand different strokes and the sort, but just looking for a generalization of the differences, whether they're things you personally like/dislike or just general perceptions. Thanks in advance.

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    The drivers with 2" exits like those that are used on the Yuichi have a different flare rate than the snout-less 1.5" exit drivers. I'm no expert, but it's my understanding that the flare rate of the horn and driver need to be compatible for best results.

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    Looking at the Yuichi A290 horn, the A480 and others of the sort has me wondering about how these sound compared to more modern waveguides like say the M2. I realize the horn and waveguide comparison is tricky, as they actually do different things in theory, but am wondering:

    - how does the sound of a Yuichi type horn compare to that of a CD waveguide like the one found on the much more modern M2?

    I can't say anything about the Yuichi but I do have the M2 waveguides and they are really nice and enjoyable to listen to.

    - I'm guessing directivity between the two types differ... Is there certain situations where one excels over the other?

    I prefer CD type horns/waveguides so I am biased. You really need to listen and decide for yourself, obviously both can sound very good but CD offers better off axis response.

    - always considered the 1.4-1.5" throat drivers a good compromise between LF extension and HF... But don't see them used in the Yuichi type horns very much. Is there a reason?

    I would guess the timeframe that it was developed in and what drivers were available at the time. All of the large 2" throated drivers are actually 1.4-1.5 when you remove the throat. Take a look at the 2450 vs 2450SL same exact driver except the SL is throatless. Another example is 2446 vs 2447 check the Library

    http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/...p/pro-comp.htm

    - if going big like a 2", does the older 2445 function as we as more modern, non JBL offered drivers? Any merit to a coaxial in a Yuichi horn?

    The main difference between a 2445 and more modern drivers is the phase plug. It uses the older style like a 2441. All of the current large format drivers use some form of the Coherent Wave Phase Plug. That was first used in the 2446 CD.

    Rob
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    Hello all... Hope things are as well as possible given things.

    As with many, I've been left ample time to ponder things and have a few burning questions regarding horns and waveguides. Unfortunately my experiences are limited and getting a frame of reference for how things sound is tricky at best.

    Looking at the Yuichi A290 horn, the A480 and others of the sort has me wondering about how these sound compared to more modern waveguides like say the M2. I realize the horn and waveguide comparison is tricky, as they actually do different things in theory, but am wondering:

    - how does the sound of a Yuichi type horn compare to that of a CD waveguide like the one found on the much more modern M2?

    It’s a subjective assessment and something you need to investigate personally. Not all people agree on what’s best subjectively. It can come down to how well either type is implemented and the impact of the listening room.

    - I'm guessing directivity between the two types differ... Is there certain situations where one excels over the other?

    The Yuich horns belong to the radial horn family with a particular flare rate. Typically they are 40 x 90 dispersion. In these designs fins with a particular geometric curve are used for dispersion along with the flare rate of the horn.

    The wave guides use a diffraction shape of the horn throat adapter to shape the dispersion. The wave guides often have a rapid flare rate.

    Sometimes a wide dispersion is advantageous but it depends on a number of factors such as your room acoustics. For example a Jbl use 60 x 90 dispersion in their consumer loudspeakers.

    - always considered the 1.4-1.5" throat drivers a good compromise between LF extension and HF... But don't see them used in the Yuichi type horns very much. Is there a reason?

    They are specifically designed for JBLs pro horns with rapid flare rates. The idea behind that was to maximise the flare rate in the horn throat so these drivers have a short throat. The driver resonance is much higher as a result.

    - if going big like a 2", does the older 2445 function as we as more modern, non JBL offered drivers? Any merit to a coaxial in a Yuichi horn?

    I would say no because those horns were designed around those drivers and the Tad 4001 drivers.
    You need to have a deep understanding of how to implement the non Jbl coaxial drivers in order to make best use of these designs. It also depends on the aims of you overall loudspeaker design.

    It’s subjective. Have a look at the Joseph Crowe YouTubes.

    I'm not planning anything yet but trying to navigate all the options and compromises sometimes gives me more questions than answers. I understand different strokes and the sort, but just looking for a generalization of the differences, whether they're things you personally like/dislike or just general perceptions. Thanks in advance.

    Your best to obtain a couple of different types and assess them yourself.
    Some people rave about the old RCA drivers. Typically restricting the range of a horn or use of horns for different frequencies bands is helpful in diy audio. Attempting a wide range horn or wave guide requires a higher level of technical understanding and skill for a satisfactory result. Typically an additional high frequency driver above 8000 hertz will be more subjectively pleasing than attempting to equalise a waveguide or horn above these frequencies. Mass roll off occurs in any compression driver above 3000-4000 hertz at about 6 dB per octave. The way a compression driver and a horn or waveguide behaves at high frequencies does not necessarily live up to marketing claims.

    My advice is not to expect too much out of a horn or a waveguide. For example don’t try and use a small horn or wave guide to crossover below 1000 hertz and don’t push it too high. A lot of these horns and wave guides are talk up on forum with nothing more than opinions without any practical experience with the horn or driver in question.

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    Thank you for the replies. Much of what you said confirms what I suspected.

    When I look at it now, it's clear there are definitely trade-offs in many designs. Different time periods had different solutions to different problems. I would definitely like to try a 2" throws Yuichi at some point in the future as a long term goal of mine, if even just to hear one.

    Is it fair to say the M2 waveguide is the culmination of all we have learned about waveguide technology to that point? I understand it's designed with a specific driver, but what about another JBL 1.5" driver? Would say a 2452 work well with the M2 guide? They're certainly much cheaper than they once were and tho still expensive, feel like the ask is worth it as far as what you get for the money. It's the implementation that is key tho, yes?

    Choosing what to do is overwhelming. One could spend forever shopping for ingredients to a recipe that could turn out flopping. I try to see what works for others if even just for inspiration later down the road.

    I used to be enamoured with the old woofers like 2235, but now see while they're great, newer drivers offer more in regards to refinement etc, and presume the same is true with the compression drivers, ya? I know the newer woofers have differential drive and the new compression drivers are something special, but do many of the legacy drivers hold a candle to them, or is it just chasing nostalgia? I notice the speakers Timbers made for his home use all modern (for the time) components... Even tho those are unattainable now too.

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    Senior Member jmpsmash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mortron View Post
    Thank you for the replies. Much of what you said confirms what I suspected.

    When I look at it now, it's clear there are definitely trade-offs in many designs. Different time periods had different solutions to different problems. I would definitely like to try a 2" throws Yuichi at some point in the future as a long term goal of mine, if even just to hear one.

    Is it fair to say the M2 waveguide is the culmination of all we have learned about waveguide technology to that point? I understand it's designed with a specific driver, but what about another JBL 1.5" driver? Would say a 2452 work well with the M2 guide? They're certainly much cheaper than they once were and tho still expensive, feel like the ask is worth it as far as what you get for the money. It's the implementation that is key tho, yes?

    Choosing what to do is overwhelming. One could spend forever shopping for ingredients to a recipe that could turn out flopping. I try to see what works for others if even just for inspiration later down the road.

    I used to be enamoured with the old woofers like 2235, but now see while they're great, newer drivers offer more in regards to refinement etc, and presume the same is true with the compression drivers, ya? I know the newer woofers have differential drive and the new compression drivers are something special, but do many of the legacy drivers hold a candle to them, or is it just chasing nostalgia? I notice the speakers Timbers made for his home use all modern (for the time) components... Even tho those are unattainable now too.
    mortron, great fun to be building speakers. I have started late compare to the more experienced members here. One thing that I have learned is that while some of the older drivers have great reputation, their replacement parts are getting more and more difficult to find. So keep that in mind while trying to obtain discontinued drivers. You might end up having to do more work and money getting them fixed up.

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    There is a lot of head scratching details in setting up that wave guide with dsp.

    You can get lost in the dsp trying to figure out where your going with measurements amd the subjective assessment.

    Hello Ian

    Not really with the 2450 series drivers. The M2 waveguide is not all that difficult to work with. With a passive network I was able to get a useable response with just 2 notch filters. A 2452 would be similar same with a 2453. You should able to set-up a similar result with DSP and possibly add a 3rd to bring up the last octave if needed. Here is an overlay POS did of the passive voltage drive vs the 2430 in the M2. As long as you are not looking for dead flat it should be fine.

    Rob
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    [QUOTE]Is it fair to say the M2 waveguide is the culmination of all we have learned about waveguide technology to that point? I understand it's designed with a specific driver, but what about another JBL 1.5" driver? Would say a 2452 work well with the M2 guide? They're certainly much cheaper than they once were and tho still expensive, feel like the ask is worth it as far as what you get for the money. It's the implementation that is key tho, yes?[QUOTE]

    Hello Morton

    The M2 will work with the 2450 series drivers and 2452/2453. Using a passive network the only potential issue could be some last octave roll-off. Using DSP it would be no issue since you could bring the response up a bit if needed. It took only 2 notch filters to get a good passive solution. The transition with the woofer was more difficult. DSP should be similar as long as you are not going for ruler flat response.

    No mater what horn/waveguide you use you will have to go through the same process. Measure, adjust and repeat as required.

    Rob
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    [QUOTE=Robh3606;436115]

    The M2 will work with the 2450 series drivers and 2452/2453.

    2450SL, not the vanilla 2450

    The 2450SL is a 1.5" exit snoutless driver, the 2450 is a 2" exit driver with the flared snout.


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    Hi Rob,

    If you are familiar and experienced with how to get to that point in the process Yes.

    If your Not its a big ask in terms of learning how to do meaningful measurements and to drive and program DSP. Less than 1% of forum members understand how to make measurements. Probably a 1/10 of that have ever used DSP.

    You have years of experience. We can’t assume that of the OP.

    In my own experience as soon as l switch in Dirac to modify the response of an already flat response of a known loudspeaker you are playing God with the subjective presentation.

    An on axis response measurement is not a strong indicator of how a CD wave-guide will work in a particular room. Often a flat response will sound too detailed in a typical consumer living space with a number of large flat surfaces. Real loudspeaker designs account for that. A conventional direct radiator system is more appropriate for on axis measurements. But the diy guy only thinks Flat response.

    DSP is a big leap of faith in attempting a diy loudspeaker project. With the exception of home theatre l tread very carefully with EQ of any kind.

    Edit . I just read your 2nd post.

    If your out to have fun in diy (which we all are) and are not pitching for a superior nirvana presentation then what you end up with can be anything or anywhere as long as it goes as far as diy projects go.

    If you want a superior nirvana presentation like a consumer design then it’s a more detailed and insightful journey requiring a lot of perseverance.

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    Man... I feel bad now. Jackie Moon says "Everybody Love Everybody!"

    I guess it should be said that I'm not a very technically skilled person in regards to speaker design. Compared to a layperson, I probably sound super smart, and have had to correct them that I know nothing. That said, one (a guy who looks just like Shrek ironically) mentioned "why don't you go try to work for a speaker designer" to which I laughed, laughed some more, mentioned I haven't even read Toole's book and told him I want to be able to keep a roof over my head LOL. Though my day to day job isn't that speaker based, the theory is all built around RLC properties of materials, phase of signals etc passive crossovers kind of make sense. Or is it passive crossovers make my work make sense? Either way, I have a little relevant knowledge that is applicable, just not specific to speaker design.

    The ability to properly measure is an art in itself. This is what keeps me looking for subjective opinions rather than just trying things. It's what keeps me from being semi legitimate as a tinkerer. I am on the fence about a mic... Calibrated MiniDSP mics are not in stock presently from Cross Spectrum. I was going to just buy a Dayton EMM6 from Solen to use as a stop gap. As I understand the calibration is most important in the higher end and working out basic crossover stuff can still be don't uncalibrated - just with some limited accuracy, yeah? I notice that when comparing mics the UMIK has some limitations the EMM6 did not. Regardless, once I get a mic I can seriously take part.

    I've also spent like a decade hmm'ing and haww'ing about what to do, etc... Definitely understand many of the caveats and such involved. My visits to a friend who is constantly tuning his gear shows me that simply using proven or recommended products in a system does not instantly equal success. It's not lost on me when most suggest a proven kit for their first dip into speaker building.

    In regards to DSP... I guess for me, there is two aspects. The purist who wants best possible single, and the tinkerer who wants the ultimate set of tools. Whilst DSP may not be a part of the final product, it's usefulness is undeniable in the design and testing stage. Much easier to try things on the fly, go back to older settings or save settings for later. I have a Driverack 260 I got for a song. It does a lot and doesn't sound half bad. A friend has the 4820 (irrc) and it looks much nicer on paper and definitely haven't heard of any issue with him using it in very high end setups. It's what inspired me to get my 260. That said, you get what you pay for. Good ADA conversion isn't free, and while plenty of options exist, I realize that as a technology, it's gotten really really good. I just can't afford that level of resolution at the moment. Using DSP to design analog filters is still something I've considered as a long term next step from a DSP speaker. Not always possible but never know till you try, design and as pointed out .. properly measure.

    It sucks, my coworker went to visit the NRC and didn't even know what an anechoic chamber or a Floyd Toole was

    In the end, it seems too that there are different goals, and design philosophies that each employ or practice that will put their ideas up against others. When it comes to something like sound, there is a lot of qualitative properties some will prefer over quantitative. Most I know don't care how flat their speaker is, they want bass, or clarity, etc. From a technical standpoint it's all relative to measurements but they don't phrase it like that. They speak in less technical terms. Maybe they just don't know what they're missing. I don't think there is going to be a lot of consensus on every point because there are so many points of compromise in audio reproduction. We've all seen those uncompromised systems and they're insane and definitely not free from criticism, yet probably sound better than much of what we have heard. Audio reproduction is about compromises. We already accept that we can't have them there live, so the recording is our best option.

  12. #12
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    Hello Mortron

    Everyone has to start somewhere. The trick is just getting started in the first place and the rest will follow. You knowledge will grow you will become more comfortable as time goes on. There is a wealth of information out there and plenty of forums to reach out for help. The price of entry has dropped considerably and as Ian noted REV is great measurement system with a robust forum for support.


    Rob
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    Senior Member ivica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mortron View Post
    Hello all... Hope things are as well as possible given things.

    As with many, I've been left ample time to ponder things and have a few burning questions regarding horns and waveguides. Unfortunately my experiences are limited and getting a frame of reference for how things sound is tricky at best.

    Looking at the Yuichi A290 horn, the A480 and others of the sort has me wondering about how these sound compared to more modern waveguides like say the M2. I realize the horn and waveguide comparison is tricky, as they actually do different things in theory, but am wondering:

    - how does the sound of a Yuichi type horn compare to that of a CD waveguide like the one found on the much more modern M2?

    - I'm guessing directivity between the two types differ... Is there certain situations where one excels over the other?

    - always considered the 1.4-1.5" throat drivers a good compromise between LF extension and HF... But don't see them used in the Yuichi type horns very much. Is there a reason?

    - if going big like a 2", does the older 2445 function as we as more modern, non JBL offered drivers? Any merit to a coaxial in a Yuichi horn?

    I'm not planning anything yet but trying to navigate all the options and compromises sometimes gives me more questions than answers. I understand different strokes and the sort, but just looking for a generalization of the differences, whether they're things you personally like/dislike or just general perceptions. Thanks in advance.
    Hi mortron,

    Yuichi A290 horn is internally consist of (I think) 5 small horns that would make good horizontal dispersion of the high frequency what is technical challenge while making standard horns. Usually a kind of diffraction slot is applied in the horn throat of such horn. Such type is much more difficultly to equalize, contrary to the A290 that has almost flat response from about 500Hz. So passive crossover network can be applied without any EQ.
    I think using JBL aluminum diaphragm in to the drivers motors like 2446 or 2450 with A290 would satisfy all of You needs, so it would be possible to make a kind of 2-way system without many problems. Proper bass driver would be much more difficult to get. You can try 2216nd-1, 1500AL, 2235, mounted in the about 150 Lit bass-reflex box, with the crossover round 600Hz.
    Some of the forum members are applied M2 horn with 2450SL/51 (476Be, 476Mg) with the satisfactory results, but a kind of UHF drivers are used. M2+D2 drivers can be applied too, but proper EQ must be applied.

    regards
    ivica

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    If you read the project M2 diy threads there is a lot of feedback there on various options with different drivers on the M2 horn. It requires an adapter.

    But, be prepared to make a number of adjustments in order to equalise the horn correctly in the Dsp.

    There is nothing clean cut about any of this and the end result is largely your perseverance.

    It’s subjective as some people find the original Jbl drivers used in the M2 too detailed while others seen happy with it.

    Read that thread carefully before you leap.

    I personally would not embark on the M2 horn if it’s your first project.

    There is a lot of head scratching details in setting up that wave guide with dsp.

    You can get lost in the dsp trying to figure out where your going with measurements amd the subjective assessment.

    Horns like the Yuichi and the improved Joseph Crowe horns are far more intuitive for diy purposes.
    You don’t have to screw around with dsp endlessly and the learning curve that goes with it.


    https://josephcrowe.com/collections/...s-290-biradial

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    Hello All,Lately I have been trying to settle on a CD / waveguide combination. I seem to like the JBL D2 2430H CD and the current version of the rectangular PT95 90 X 50 degrees. The thinking is that there is less reflection off the walls and especially less off the floor and ceiling.See the attached on axis FR plots and distortion plots attached below.Thanks DT

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