KM2

[Ian Mackenzie]

You have got to be careful how you crossover this driver.

It has a bump in the response around 1000 hertz that must be reduced in combination with the low pass crossover.

The point is it’s far from plug and play getting the blending with the horn and the woofer right. A PA stack attitude to crossover points will give you a Wall Of Sound if that’s what you want but nothing like what these drivers are capable of as a system. A lot of the tuning is trial and error. Not just measurements or an auto dsp program. To that end the effort put into making it work out weighs the time spent thinking and dreaming up the ideal drivers. It can take a long time. Years in complex systems.

[macaroonie]

GT's old 2123
10 inch / 101dB / 25gram MMS / 250W / 3inch VC
cannot find anything close ... or isn't just

Get in touch with our esteemed member Edgewound , he should be able to construct a pair for you.
As new to you from his workbench.

[JeffW]

Analysis Paralysis, don't let it derail your project.

[Anti K]

Thanks all for advises.
I'm fortunately busy for a while with lenses for these DD66000 cabs.
Hope things settle down (in my head) while the time I'm busy.

One thing seems to be almost OK, 15s would be 2216Nd as JeffW also pointed they are in sales/production etc! And didn't heard any bad word in that forum, vice-versa only praises while decent setup. POS sayd they are hard to beat. If something goes wrong with these then it could be just because of me...
macaroonie, thanks for hint.

One think want to ask (hope comparison is OK, TAD drivers 1601 and 4001 are not toys):
But question is pros and cons of different switching of woofers (who knows, knows)
Keepeing in mind I'll add 2269s for lows additionally and 15inches will be 'free of charge' of the most horrible lowest, if that matters. I think it matters.

One picture says more than thousand worlds:

[pos]

Have You any more info about the VC differences between 2265 VC and 2216ND VC ?

Hi Ivica,
No info, sorry. I assume it is not TCR but I might as well be wrong given the lack of public info on the subject.

[pos]

One picture says more than thousand worlds:

The TAD and JBL are very different animals despite the visual similarities.

In the TAD 2401 both 15" play together up to 650Hz, whereas in the JBL DD66000 only one woofer goes up to the 700Hz crossover.
As a consequence the directivity of the JBL is much larger in the 300Hz-700Hz range, and similar to a single 15" loudspeaker.

This is still a compromise though: the woofer that plays the mids is not vertically aligned with the horn, contrary to the 4435 for example.
That is not really a problem at the intended listening distance, but still a technical compromise.

Using a mid woofer vertically centered with the horn as per your previous sketch would solve that particular problem, but would also introduce many other compromises. Potentially much more harmful ones.
With such big speakers, intended to be used from a respectable distance, the smoothness of the power response is very important, much more so than the "compactness" of the source.
The more drivers you add the more difficult it is to get the power response smooth.
Getting the on-axis response flat is fairly easy in an active setup, but the fun begins off-axis

[Kreativlos]

Thanks all for advises.

Keepeing in mind I'll add 2269s

And why do you insist on 15 inch mid woofers then? They're far from ideal for the purpose of 70 hz to 700 hz... for that task a small midrange driver horn loaded can do the job or a 10 inch JBL in a closed box...

[Anti K]

The TAD and JBL are very different animals despite the visual similarities.

In the TAD 2401 both 15" play together up to 650Hz, whereas in the JBL DD66000 only one woofer goes up to the 700Hz crossover.
As a consequence the directivity of the JBL is much larger in the 300Hz-700Hz range, and similar to a single 15" loudspeaker.

This is still a compromise though: the woofer that plays the mids is not vertically aligned with the horn

/ ... /

Using a mid woofer vertically centered with the horn as per your previous sketch would solve that particular problem

Now WE get there !

I tried to explain and explain but one picture made it clear instantly.
Of cause I know Tad and DD are different anymals and 2xLF act by different philosophy. Which me personally is un-undestandable (directly saying should make one more sophistication, if not error) and thats why I drafted this 10'' mid in the middle there.

Considering move the MID from EXACT centre a bit sideways.
- eliminate mess a bit caused by identical reflections from cab faceplate
(or maybe helps cover the 'face' of baffle with some ugly dampener, just drivers 'look out'). Grill hides all anyway.
- To accommondate somewhere a big Ribbon, able make about 100dB sensi from 12+ kHz
Do not want to violate the aesthetics of upper horn.

[Anti K]

And why do you insist on 15 inch mid woofers then? They're far from ideal for the purpose of 70 hz to 700 hz... for that task a small midrange driver horn loaded can do the job or a 10 inch JBL in a closed box...

One 'prosaic' reason is, I have DD66000 cabinets and they are like hungry for pair of 15 inch.

Another, more serious explanation is - if You put now the puzzle together:
Take a very good 8-10'' MID (because, what's a point to take a bad one?) and if it's really good MID, a bright fast one, it has:
extremely lightweight cone, Fs somewhere 80+Hz, around 100dB sensitivity. And it drops certainly below somewhere about 300Hz. Which, in theory, is a very good point to make a crossover.
If now take 18" savages, shakes your ears, your sofa, floor even, it is not able articulate at 300Hz. Because form 20 to 80Hz is already 2 octaves and these are most energy-hungry. There would be a insane magnetic field across the VC and if durin this 'session' insert to same VC some higher frequencies, it just 'ignores'.
Bear doesn't dance.
(even vintage freezer-size JBL monitors have bi-amp terminals backside, where is clearly written : if be-amp, cross actively at 290Hz)

Another thing is (f*** me) I have DD66000 emty cabinets and it would be just easy as Sunday Morning, assemble there JBL 15'' woofers. They fit into existing holes with precise as 0,5mm ( 10/508 inch - OMG Americans, my condolences )
But I have 'a barn' literally, as MrWidget named.

[ivica]

One 'prosaic' reason is, I have DD66000 cabinets and they are like hungry for pair of 15 inch.

Another, more serious explanation is - if You put now the puzzle together:
Take a very good 8-10'' MID (because, what's a point to take a bad one?) and if it's really good MID, a bright fast one, it has:
extremely lightweight cone, Fs somewhere 80+Hz, around 100dB sensitivity. And it drops certainly below somewhere about 300Hz. Which, in theory, is a very good point to make a crossover.
If now take 18" savages, shakes your ears, your sofa, floor even, it is not able articulate at 300Hz. Because form 20 to 80Hz is already 2 octaves and these are most energy-hungry. There would be a insane magnetic field across the VC and if durin this 'session' insert to same VC some higher frequencies, it just 'ignores'.
Bear doesn't dance.
(even vintage freezer-size JBL monitors have bi-amp terminals backside, where is clearly written : if be-amp, cross actively at 290Hz)

Another thing is (f*** me) I have DD66000 emty cabinets and it would be just easy as Sunday Morning, assemble there JBL 15'' woofers. They fit into existing holes with precise as 0,5mm ( 10/508 inch - OMG Americans, my condolences )
But I have 'a barn' literally, as MrWidget named.

Hi Anti K,

I do not think that You would any needs to introduce 10" (or 12") mid-bass drivers if using JBL 2216ND or 2216ND-1 in Your DD66k cabinets.
Much greater problem would be to get good 476Be drivers to be used with the Dd66k horns.

About some low bass with DD66k....You can find something
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...l=1#post367950
https://jblpro.com/en/products/5628

and the photo
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...l=1#post367259


or contact our forum member Henrik, DynaMax (www.dynamax.dk ) as he has some experience with 4x2269 as low-bass support for DD66k speakers

Regards
Ivicca

[Anti K]

Hi ivica

2216Nd is a excellent driver for sure, for 2-way.
It's not a question what this driver is able to.
It's a question what I am able to (or not).

As seen my previous sketches of Veneered Monsters, planned a 2216Nd vertically aligned below the horn (with large format CD).
I like 2-way concept and it's life-like sound, cross below human ears most sensitive area, somewhere around 700Hz.

With adding 'tiny' exceptions: some supportives to both ends.
Also, same philosophy: highs where ear is bearly able to , and from other end, where ear is not able to listen the direction.

Now (became a happy owner of Everest cabinets) changed
- vertical alignement (and sooo much) of HF-MF; I'm not familiar with that, never done before
- why is 'faceplate' broken into two fractions, is it for acoustics or for design
- the up-to-mid are the outer ones or inner ones?
- where to cut off the supportive, second woofer (I'd like to cut bit higher looking on graph of 2216Nd, to rise systems sensitivity)
- while useing MID in the middle, sensitivity would be 100dB with ease (and so easy rises max SPL - I have a 'barn' not a living room with nervous neighbours)

And one more thing: I do not have mister Greg Timbers here neighbourhood to ask advise

[ivica]

Hi ivica

2216Nd is a excellent driver for sure, for 2-way.
It's not a question what this driver is able to.
It's a question what I am able to (or not).

As seen my previous sketches of Veneered Monsters, planned a 2216Nd vertically aligned below the horn (with large format CD).
I like 2-way concept and it's life-like sound, cross below human ears most sensitive area, somewhere around 700Hz.

With adding 'tiny' exceptions: some supportives to both ends.
Also, same philosophy: highs where ear is bearly able to , and from other end, where ear is not able to listen the direction.

Now (became a happy owner of Everest cabinets) changed
- vertical alignement (and sooo much) of HF-MF; I'm not familiar with that, never done before
- why is 'faceplate' broken into two fractions, is it for acoustics or for design
- the up-to-mid are the outer ones or inner ones?
- where to cut off the supportive, second woofer (I'd like to cut bit higher looking on graph of 2216Nd, to rise systems sensitivity)
- while using MID in the middle, sensitivity would be 100dB with ease (and so easy rises max SPL - I have a 'barn' not a living room with nervous neighbors)

And one more thing: I do not have mister Greg Timbers here neighborhood to ask advise

Hi Anti K,

As You will apply low-bass drivers (2269 mentioned), so You can put both 2216ND to work (in-parallel) so You can get +6dB in the sensitivity, so reaching over 100dB/2.8V. On the other side compression diver would be operating in its maximal level. You can see the THD data presented with JBL 2380 or PTH-95HF horns, so I think that drivers like JBL 2451 or 2447 can be used as "large horn loaded drivers, and over 10kHz D2430k, JBL 2408 driver can be used but proper horn for it would be a problem, if large off-axis dispersion in UHF region is "a must", may be even TWO UHF DRIVERS have to be used per each speaker box, I think (see Vertec VT4887A). Producing UHF frequency over 100dB/2,8V, wide off-axis spreadeagled, without large THD is very difficult to get.

Regards
Ivica

[sebackman]

Anti,

There has been many good advise in this thread. You seem to want to go you own way and create "your " speaker as many of us have done. Good for you.

When you embark on that route there is really little advise "we" can give as we have not tried "your" configuration. We can support with experiences on certain drivers and on them i certain constructions (non factory) but how they would work in "your" system is impossible to predict. Remember you are not building a speaker your are building a system where all components interact. Or you can opt to just build a speaker to make life simpler.

An alternative, given you have two DD66000 cabinets, could be to get 4pcs 2216Nd or if you can find 4pcs 1500/1501AL and get the wave guide from 4367. It has a similar sound to M2 but may fit in your DD66000 cabinets which the M2 would not.

You could then use the D2 driver and just make your own 4367 passive filters or go active using the M2 settings as basis. Or you can get a nice pair of 2451/476 drivers and install a new SL diaphragm.

Many have stated that a 2-way system is easier to get "right" so a 2-way DD66067 might be a good combo.

And yes, the 4367 WG is available.

//Rob

[macaroonie]

^^^^ He said with a 4 way in his avatar

[macaroonie]

This is what I would do. You can throw stones later.

I'd go with the 2 x 2216.

I'd turn the box upside down leaving space above the 2 bass drivers to acommodate a 10 or a 12 , prob a 10
This would require some gentle carpentry to make a flat baffle. With a narrow band , maybe 400 -1000 the dog box need not be huge.
Here's the slightly more complicated part , extend the flares up the way as required to take the lips as per the original. Somewhere you have to doff the hat to the designer and to the great woodworkers at Hornslet in DK.
Super tweet IMO would be better between the 10 and the horn , if not then in the usual place above the lips.

Subs below 65 if he needs them , which I doubt.

If none if this is ok then join the queue for a Function 1 setup , coz thats really the next step up