How to improve the crossover parts in the 1400 Array?

[johnhere]

Hi guys, my head's kinda spinning when researching the 1400s, the xos of 1400 is A big subject, well, Greg provides a method to bi-amp them, there's a sentence "HF level needs to be reduced by 1dB", what does that mean? We follow the instruction and the HF is already been reduced 1dB or do we have to use EQ?


Besides, we all know the stock xos in the 1400 could be improved, and the quickest way to do this is switching to some superior models' crossover parts. Here's my another question, you use DD67000's xos for 4365, and 4365 certainly sound better, and those crossover points in the 67000 also suitable for 4365? If not, what we do, how should we do since there's not much information about changing xo points while keeping the great sound from the superior models' xos. Same thing, just an example, we put 4365's xos into 1400, what should we do then? We would be helpless without help from insiders when facing these xo-points-changing stuffs.

[JeffW]

What is it about the 1400 Array crossover that you find lacking? And generally speaking, substituting a crossover designed to work with a specific set of components for a crossover designed for a different set of components might not work all that well. What part of the 4365 crossover do you feel JBL got wrong enough that substituting a D67000 crossover would fix it?

[rdgrimes]

+1
Very small potential for improvement, very large potential for degradation.

But if one is serious about this, an active crossover and bi-amp setup would be the ticket. That way you make changes by turning a dial and can always go back.

[LowPhreak]

I think one thing johnhere is asking is - aren't the x-o's designed to a specific model's price point? So an Everest x-o has better parts than an Array 1400's and so on, assuming you had the correct frequencies and slopes. Of course a well-designed active with very good parts spec, and with bi-amping, would be better but that would be true for almost any model.

[JeffW]

He mentions changing "xo points" a couple of different times, I don't think substituting "better parts" should change the "xo point".

[DavidF]

Hi guys, my head's kinda spinning when researching the 1400s, the xos of 1400 is A big subject, well, Greg provides a method to bi-amp them, there's a sentence "HF level needs to be reduced by 1dB", what does that mean? We follow the instruction and the HF is already been reduced 1dB or do we have to use EQ?


Besides, we all know the stock xos in the 1400 could be improved, and the quickest way to do this is switching to some superior models' crossover parts. Here's my another question, you use DD67000's xos for 4365, and 4365 certainly sound better, and those crossover points in the 67000 also suitable for 4365? If not, what we do, how should we do since there's not much information about changing xo points while keeping the great sound from the superior models' xos. Same thing, just an example, we put 4365's xos into 1400, what should we do then? We would be helpless without help from insiders when facing these xo-points-changing stuffs.

Do you have a set of Array 1400s? Or thinking about buying them?

[LowPhreak]

He mentions changing "xo points" a couple of different times, I don't think substituting "better parts" should change the "xo point".

But that's precisely what he's asking: "...there's not much information about changing xo points while keeping the great sound from the superior models' xos." IOW, to have the correct freqs/slopes for 1400's while using the better (or similar) components. Obviously some specific values would be different, so you wouldn't have the original/stock x-o in the end.

[JeffW]

We'll just have to disagree until he attempts to clarify. I read this:

you use DD67000's xos for 4365, and 4365 certainly sound better, and those crossover points in the 67000 also suitable for 4365

and it seems pretty straightforward that he wants to know if putting a D67000 crossover in a 4365, taking the crossover points for the D67000 into consideration, will make the 4365 sound better.

The changing the crossover points part isn't from swapping crossover components, but the crossovers themselves.

Again:

Same thing, just an example, we put 4365's xos into 1400, what should we do then?

Sure reads like he's asking about "put(ting) 4365 crossovers into a 1400", almost word for word.

Are the quality of the components even all that different between D67000/4365/1400? I'd think they were all fairly similar, anyway.

Not that it really matters, all academic as it is futile, really.

[JoeNelis]

Just my 2 cents worth, if possible bi amp and use an external electronic crossover like a friend and i are using The DBX 4800. It is amazing with flexibility and you can play with crossover points and see if it's to your taste. I'm using dual 1400ND 's in my new speaker set up with the bessel filter on the bottom end and sounds awesome!!

Also Quality components make a difference, My new crossovers i'm using Jupiter HT 100v caps and sound fantastic and they will need to burn in. I think you have some good options to work with.




Joe.

[Ian Mackenzie]

John is asking a number of questions ...too many in one post or one thread for specific responses.

I would suggest re stating one question per post starting with the highest priority. Presumably the Array 1400

Please Post a link to the comments by GT and relevant threads

Then Open another thread for the other questions.
Dealing with one question at a time will avoid confusion and provide focus and relevance on the right information - subject matter to assist in resolving the question

[timc]

Yes there is potential for an upgrade. The biggest uppgrade of them all is to discard the passive crossover altogether and go active. Not a cheap option but a very good one

[johnhere]

Here're the sources of my questions:


The 1400 Array bi-amping
You could read the sentence in those two pics: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...del-1400-Array


About swapping the 67000 xos into the other models:

It doesn't have to though with a network swap. I used both the 4365 and S9900 passive filters and the S9900 passive filters sounded better to me. The DD67000 passive network sounds the best of the three though, no real shock there I suppose.

When Mr. 4313B put 67000/9900 xos into the inferior models, what did he do then? He has no explanations about the crossover points thingy at all.

[4313B]

When Mr. 4313B put 67000/9900 xos into the inferior models, what did he do then? He has no explanations about the crossover points thingy at all.

That had nothing to do with the 1400 Array...

For the 1400 Array I bought a second pair of stock 1400 Array networks from JBL. Then I charge-coupled them by removing the stock capacitors and putting the additional capacitors on a board mounted directly over the stock boards. I used the diode method to bias the capacitor pairs. It worked out splendidly. The 1400 Arrays are certainly good enough to warrant the effort. Will I do it for other people? Nope, I don't have that kind of time right now.

Note that when I build or modify networks I run voltage drives on the whole mess to ensure that nothing is shorted or open and that the voltage drives look the way they are supposed to before I start hooking them up to expensive transducers and amplifiers. When I did these 1400 Array networks I measured the stock voltage drives against the biased voltage drives and the results were spot on.

Hi guys, my head's kinda spinning when researching the 1400s, the xos of 1400 is A big subject, well, Greg provides a method to bi-amp them, there's a sentence "HF level needs to be reduced by 1dB", what does that mean?

All he is saying is that as soon as one shorts the capacitor the output level of the 435 will increase a dB and one might need to adjust for that. A person might find that they personally prefer a 2 dB drop instead, or none at all.

[johnhere]

Now we ignore the 1400. Please tell us more about the method of modding networks. I believe many of us can't wait to learn the secret of that. Cheers

[Ed Zeppeli]

Now we ignore the 1400. Please tell us more about the method of modding networks. I believe many of us can't wait to learn the secret of that. Cheers

Quite honestly (at least for dolt like me) this is not a simple topic for someone to cover. If you search "1400 arrays CC network" you'll probably find a crapload of info here to satiate your quest for knowledge. I've done similar digging as I have a pair of SAM1HFs that I'd like to pair with some 15s in the future. Ultimately and after a lot of searching I began looking for the right DSP platform to handle those duties. You may or may not come to the same conclusion but I would encourage you to start with that search.

Good luck,

Warren