Your opinion on 4333 crossover please

[pauly]

Hi all,

I'd really appreciate some informed comment on the issue of crossovers for 4333 monitors.

I have speakers configured (physically) as 4333 which have. 2234 woofer, 2420 mid with horn and lense, and slots. Currently they have 3110a crossovers.

I want to build new crossovers and have purchased the components to build Nelson pass' version of the l300 crossovers.
-however-
I was browsing this site and saw an equivilent circuit to the 4333 genuine crossovers that didn't use the tapped inductor.

Now I have a quandary.The speakers are used to mix music sometimes, and enjoy music ...let's say 40/60%. I use a set of questeds for critical mixing.

So...I'd really appreciate hearing some informed comment on each of these crossovers, and recommendations on which way to go, particularly from those that have heard or built them.

Thanks
Pauly

[audiomagnate]

Hi all,

I'd really appreciate some informed comment on the issue of crossovers for 4333 monitors.

I have speakers configured (physically) as 4333 which have. 2234 woofer, 2420 mid with horn and lense, and slots. Currently they have 3110a crossovers.

I want to build new crossovers and have purchased the components to build Nelson pass' version of the l300 crossovers.
-however-
I was browsing this site and saw an equivilent circuit to the 4333 genuine crossovers that didn't use the tapped inductor.

Now I have a quandary.The speakers are used to mix music sometimes, and enjoy music ...let's say 40/60%. I use a set of questeds for critical mixing.

So...I'd really appreciate hearing some informed comment on each of these crossovers, and recommendations on which way to go, particularly from those that have heard or built them.

Thanks


Pauly

If you want to go with a passive crossover, you can't go wrong with Mr. Pass' solution for these three drivers. The L300 isn't acoustically identical to the 4333, but it should be close enough to do what you are asking it to do. In Nelson's ears I trust.

[pauly]

Thanks audiomagnate,

does anyone else have an opinion or advice?

thanks
pauly

If you want to go with a passive crossover, you can't go wrong with Mr. Pass' solution for these three drivers. The L300 isn't acoustically identical to the 4333, but it should be close enough to do what you are asking it to do. In Nelson's ears I trust.

[ivica]

Thanks audiomagnate,

does anyone else have an opinion or advice?

thanks
pauly

Hi pauly,

If You can upgrade 2420 & 2312 with 2450 (2441...) & 2311 it would be less 'hhssss' pronounced, and then adjust the network. I do not think that 6dB/oct network for 2405 would be the best solution. May be low-pass for VHF and hi-pass for UHF applied on 3155 would be more applicable solution.
You can find auto-transformer-less design here in the AH Forum.

regards
ivica

[audiomagnate]

Hi pauly,

If You can upgrade 2420 & 2312 with 2450 (2441...) & 2311 it would be less 'hhssss' pronounced, and then adjust the network. I do not think that 6dB/oct network for 2405 would be the best solution. May be low-pass for VHF and hi-pass for UHF applied on 3155 would be more applicable solution.
You can find auto-transformer-less design here in the AH Forum.

regards
ivica

I personally wonder why anyone would even want to go to the effort and expense of building a "high end" passive crossover in 2015. It makes absolutely no sense to me. It's like trying to build a modern racing using carburetors. To each his own I guess.

[4313B]

I personally wonder why anyone would even want to go to the effort and expense of building a "high end" passive crossover in 2015. It makes absolutely no sense to me. It's like trying to build a modern racing using carburetors. To each his own I guess.

I guess they go hand in hand with those silly slabs of grooved vinyl...

[ivica]

I personally wonder why anyone would even want to go to the effort and expense of building a "high end" passive crossover in 2015. It makes absolutely no sense to me. It's like trying to build a modern racing using carburetors. To each his own I guess.

Hi audiomagnate,

But using single (stereo) amplifier with built in preamplifier is much easier then using pre-amp, DSP driven crossover, and several (2 or 3 or 4, or...) stereo amps, if you can get almost the same results..., not to mention that some of them are designed by very experienced persons.

regards
ivica

[jlyons]

A bi amp only variant of the crossover 3133, the 3132, was offered by JBL which uses no tapped inductors, and merely splits the mid and hi and includes a variable L pad. I have used this to good effect, and hope you will try the bi amp option. The 3132 is a 2 way network, and would not be difficult to clone. But you seem committed to the Pass option, which i suppose will offer great results while requiring only one amp.

[pauly]

G'day Jlyons,

Thanks for that - When it's all said and done, the money is an issue. Buying 2 or three stereo power amps, and a quality crossover will cost many thousands of dollars, let alone the complexity, cabling, power, & heat that are all factors. For less that a grand, I'm able to build these passives with quality components and am hoping they will improve the speakers (which still sound good anyway!).

Thanks for your endorsement of the Pass crossover too.

Thanks
Pauly

A bi amp only variant of the crossover 3133, the 3132, was offered by JBL which uses no tapped inductors, and merely splits the mid and hi and includes a variable L pad. I have used this to good effect, and hope you will try the bi amp option. The 3132 is a 2 way network, and would not be difficult to clone. But you seem committed to the Pass option, which i suppose will offer great results while requiring only one amp.

[audiomagnate]

A bi amp only variant of the crossover 3133, the 3132, was offered by JBL which uses no tapped inductors, and merely splits the mid and hi and includes a variable L pad. I have used this to good effect, and hope you will try the bi amp option. The 3132 is a 2 way network, and would not be difficult to clone. But you seem committed to the Pass option, which i suppose will offer great results while requiring only one amp.

I've never heard 4333's but own a pair of L300's and even bone stock I think they're absolutely terrific, a true work of art. My point is that if you're going to go to all the trouble and expense of redoing them, why not go go active? I'm no longer a "believer" in "audiophile" electronics after 40 years in the business; I like pro stuff and think lots of it sounds great. A good pro EC, a handful (five to be precise) of pro amps (like my beloved and dirt cheap BGW 620Bs) and a parametric EQ are easier and cheaper to implement in this application than a custom built high quality passive crossover, and I know damn well it will absolutely crush it performance-wise, and allow some room tuning to boot. Some measurement equipment helps too of course, but that's dirt cheap these days too.

Having said that, the most cost effective upgrade for a pair of L300's/4333's (I know they don't sound exactly the same) is an EC, some big amps a few good subs. Stock L300's with a good sub swarm sound absolutely incredible.

[4313B]

Understood but most people just don't want to go there with the whole multi-amp fully active setup. That is why a $75k system like the Everest II has a passive filter. That is why systems like the 4331, 4333, 4343 and 4345 had the bi-amp option instead of being bi-amp only.

If I had a pair of L300's I'd probably try the Nelson Pass filter if only to see what it sounded like. It can be interesting to hear what other folks come up with.

[audiomagnate]

If I had a pair of L300's I'd probably try the Nelson Pass filter if only to see what it sounded like. It can be interesting to hear what other folks come up with.

I did try it, and it sounded slightly better, but rolling them off at 50, stuffing the cabs and ports and adding a sub swarm took them to a whole new level. Massive difference as opposed to subtle improvement.

[4313B]

Interesting... way back in something like 1980 Mark Gander suggested something similar to me. He suggested blocking off the ports and loading the enclosures up with fiberglass. If I remember correctly, Mark was the transducer engineer on the 124/2203 and 136/2231 and Greg was the systems engineer on the L300/4333.

[pauly]

Gday,

well for those that are interested, I made the crossovers and installed them yesterday. My wife and I spent some time listening last night. There is a substantial improvement in that 'in the room' feeling with voices and instruments able to be pinpointed in the soundstage easier. I think my wife said it best when she said 'it's like I'm hearing this for the first time!' About a track we have listened to for twenty years.

So....my verdict is that the project was a great success, though expensive. The only change I made to the Nelson pass circuit was to use the tweeter circuit from a jbl 4333 crossover that had a 1uf cap in series with a 1.5uf cap, with an inductor between the two to ground.

Ill try try to create a document with photos etc over the coming weeks that describe the build.

thanks
pauly

Hi all,

I'd really appreciate some informed comment on the issue of crossovers for 4333 monitors.

I have speakers configured (physically) as 4333 which have. 2234 woofer, 2420 mid with horn and lense, and slots. Currently they have 3110a crossovers.

I want to build new crossovers and have purchased the components to build Nelson pass' version of the l300 crossovers.
-however-
I was browsing this site and saw an equivilent circuit to the 4333 genuine crossovers that didn't use the tapped inductor.

Now I have a quandary.The speakers are used to mix music sometimes, and enjoy music ...let's say 40/60%. I use a set of questeds for critical mixing.

So...I'd really appreciate hearing some informed comment on each of these crossovers, and recommendations on which way to go, particularly from those that have heard or built them.

Thanks
Pauly

[pauly]

G'day all,

Here's a document running through my build of the Nelson Pass crossovers.

Paulys Nelson Pass Crossovers.pdf

Thanks Pauly

Gday,

<SNIP>

Ill try try to create a document with photos etc over the coming weeks that describe the build.

thanks
pauly