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Thread: almost full range enclosure for guitar build advice E140/E110/2213

  1. #16
    Senior Member Baron030's Avatar
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    Hi Toby

    JBL describes the 4625B as having an internal volume of 4 1/2 cubic feet, which is best size for bass guitar. But, if you are going to use the E140 for guitar and not bass guitar than maybe you should be looking for something like a Fender Showman or Dual Showman cab. If I remember the dimensions right, the Fender Showman cabs should have an internal volume of only about 2 1/2 to 3 cubic feet per driver. Now, I am not sure if the Fender Showmans came with D130F or D140F speakers. But, it could be possible to adjust the port tuning if necessary.

    Baron030

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron030 View Post
    Hi Toby

    JBL describes the 4625B as having an internal volume of 4 1/2 cubic feet, which is best size for bass guitar. But, if you are going to use the E140 for guitar and not bass guitar than maybe you should be looking for something like a Fender Showman or Dual Showman cab. If I remember the dimensions right, the Fender Showman cabs should have an internal volume of only about 2 1/2 to 3 cubic feet per driver. Now, I am not sure if the Fender Showmans came with D130F or D140F speakers. But, it could be possible to adjust the port tuning if necessary.

    Baron030
    the outer dimensions of the 4625B are 767mm x 512mm x 478mm or 30" x 20" x 19" (roughly) which seems large. Is it not right we can work with about 2.5 cubic feet per driver if tuned and ported?

    To clarify, i'm not using this cab for conventional guitar. i have signals pitched down one or two octaves and will be dealing with some very low frequencies which i would like to be heard, hence my desire to have a dedicated bass cab. However, i'm only talking about power up to 100W so the E140 should be able to handle what i throw at it. I'd like to tune it down to 40Hz or so.

    The Showman and Dual Showman cabs are also pretty big to handle. I'd much rather go with a more compact more efficient modern design. Or have i got that wrong? I remembered them being absolutely huge, and hence now unpopular.

  3. #18
    Senior Member Baron030's Avatar
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    To clarify, i'm not using this cab for conventional guitar. i have signals pitched down one or two octaves and will be dealing with some very low frequencies which i would like to be heard, hence my desire to have a dedicated bass cab. However, i'm only talking about power up to 100W so the E140 should be able to handle what i throw at it. I'd like to tune it down to 40Hz or so.
    The E140 driver is not going to be very efficient at producing very low frequencies when it is mounted in a very small enclosure. That's why 4625B cab was built to be so large. Those guys at JBL know what they are doing.

    If you really want a BIG deep bass sound from a small lightweight enclosure then you are going to need to re-think your project and use a different driver. Possibly something that has a lightweight neodymium magnet system and a suspension that is actually designed for a smaller enclosure. (JBL 2265HPL)

    And there is one issue which has not been address yet, while the E140's voice coil can easily handle 100 watts of power. The suspension may not take that much power at very low frequencies. So, you could have the driver fail because of over excursion.

    I Can't Change the Laws of Physics. Captain!
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron030 View Post
    The E140 driver is not going to be very efficient at producing very low frequencies when it is mounted in a very small enclosure. That's why 4625B cab was built to be so large. Those guys at JBL know what they are doing.

    If you really want a BIG deep bass sound from a small lightweight enclosure then you are going to need to re-think your project and use a different driver. Possibly something that has a lightweight neodymium magnet system and a suspension that is actually designed for a smaller enclosure. (JBL 2265HPL)

    And there is one issue which has not been address yet, while the E140's voice coil can easily handle 100 watts of power. The suspension may not take that much power at very low frequencies. So, you could have the driver fail because of over excursion.

    I Can't Change the Laws of Physics. Captain!
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    all taken in hand, thanks. I do appreciate the help you're giving me.

    Just to make sure i understand, looking at JBL's recommended enclosure size tuned to 40Hz for a single E140 I have inside dimensions of:

    23.6"x19.2"x16.7"
    60cm x 48.8cm x 42.4cm

    if we're talking 1/2" or 3/4" ply i should be able to get away with a smaller cab than the 4625B.

  5. #20
    Senior Member Baron030's Avatar
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    Hi
    Here is chart that shows why you can’t change the laws of physics. Pictured are 3 different enclosure sizes and they are all tuned to the same 40 Hz. As you can see the smaller the box the greater the roll off, so there is no way you are going to get really deep bass out of a small box using an E140 driver. It’s all about compromises between enclosure size and depth of bass. Since, you are using a device that can shift frequencies down 1 or 2 octaves. You might run into an issue with cone over excursion. Pictured below is a cone excursion plot with and without a sub-sonic filter. What happens at frequencies below the port tuning frequency is that the air loading on the cone to drops dramatically. This causes the cone to flop back and forth wildly without really generating a lot of sound. Oh, it may look impressive to seeing the cone flopping in and out, but you are not going to hear it. Here is a link to a sub-sonic filter that could be built to protect your drivers:
    http://sound.westhost.com/project99.htm Baron030
    Name:  JBL E-140-40hz.JPG
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  6. #21
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    that's great, thanks. I have an HPF on my EQ module at 35HZ which i'm using luckily. I didn't want to fry my E120s up till now

  7. #22
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    2 octaves will be below E140's Fs

    Baron030's chart really demonstrates the limitations of small boxes. Additionally, you need to know that 2 octaves down from a guitar's E string is about 20 hz. Its going to be off the map, meaning you won't hear it. E 140's have an Fs of 32 hz. http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/thi...parameters.pdf You would really need the low filter to protect the transducer.

    A small box will also impact the E and A string fundamentals. The charts show -3 db or worse until the mid 100's. You probably would have to equalize the highs down and lows up to make it work. You could get "icepick" highs otherwise.

    I think you mentioned earlier, that you are overdriving the amps. It will have a larger impact as the frequency drops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron030 View Post
    Hi
    Here is chart that shows why you can’t change the laws of physics. Pictured are 3 different enclosure sizes and they are all tuned to the same 40 Hz. As you can see the smaller the box the greater the roll off, so there is no way you are going to get really deep bass out of a small box using an E140 driver. It’s all about compromises between enclosure size and depth of bass. Since, you are using a device that can shift frequencies down 1 or 2 octaves. You might run into an issue with cone over excursion. Pictured below is a cone excursion plot with and without a sub-sonic filter. What happens at frequencies below the port tuning frequency is that the air loading on the cone to drops dramatically. This causes the cone to flop back and forth wildly without really generating a lot of sound. Oh, it may look impressive to seeing the cone flopping in and out, but you are not going to hear it. Here is a link to a sub-sonic filter that could be built to protect your drivers:
    http://sound.westhost.com/project99.htm Baron030
    Name:  JBL E-140-40hz.JPG
Views: 1179
Size:  93.9 KBName:  JBL E140 Cone Excursion.JPG
Views: 1035
Size:  63.9 KB

  8. #23
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    I'm using E120s crossover over for the mids and highs, so that should avoid the icepick.

    It looks like the speaker itself is roughly 6 litres volume, less when front mounted. if i go for a box with internal dimensions of 60cm x 50cm x 40cm that gives me 120 litres, which, less the speaker, delivers pretty much 4 cubic feet. I think i can work that, and it doesn't seem overly small. it works with Baron's graphs. would you define that as a small box?

    As i said i have the low filter so that's all good.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldcountryJim View Post
    Baron030's chart really demonstrates the limitations of small boxes. Additionally, you need to know that 2 octaves down from a guitar's E string is about 20 hz. Its going to be off the map, meaning you won't hear it. E 140's have an Fs of 32 hz. http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/thi...parameters.pdf You would really need the low filter to protect the transducer.

    A small box will also impact the E and A string fundamentals. The charts show -3 db or worse until the mid 100's. You probably would have to equalize the highs down and lows up to make it work. You could get "icepick" highs otherwise.

    I think you mentioned earlier, that you are overdriving the amps. It will have a larger impact as the frequency drops.

  9. #24
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    E120's have higher sensitivity

    Speaker design for guitar is really a personal matter, so there's no right or wrong answer. If you get the sound you want, its right. If this were sound reinforcement or reproduction you would likely seek a flatter, uncolored response.

    Having said that, the low end in the proposed system will be less than it could be. Baron030 already pointed out the the output drop below the mid 100 hz, but there's also a difference in sensitivity between E140's (100db) and E120's (103 db). http://www.jblpro.com/pub/components/eseries.pdf You will have to think about the difference in volume of what's coming out of the E120's and the frequencies rolled off by the E140 cabinet. If you play harmonics on the G B and E strings on the seventh fret or above, those tones are going to cut through the mix. The crossover point will make a difference as to where the difference in volume occurs, but doesn't necessarily solve the problem.

    Again, whether this is good or bad, isn't decided on paper. Its up to you and your audience.

    You could add attenuation to the crossover to give it flexibility.


    Quote Originally Posted by parker_knoll View Post
    I'm using E120s crossover over for the mids and highs, so that should avoid the icepick.

    It looks like the speaker itself is roughly 6 litres volume, less when front mounted. if i go for a box with internal dimensions of 60cm x 50cm x 40cm that gives me 120 litres, which, less the speaker, delivers pretty much 4 cubic feet. I think i can work that, and it doesn't seem overly small. it works with Baron's graphs. would you define that as a small box?

    As i said i have the low filter so that's all good.

  10. #25
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    Hi, hopefully I mentioned I'm putting twice the power into the E140 than the two E120s, and the result is that they sound pretty balanced, although without crossovers there's too much doubling in the mids, as you'd expect. In the long term I'll probably match the E140 with an E110 which should be a better pairing.

    What I'm specifically looking for is getting the best out of the low end in the E140 while having a reasonably portable rig. it looks like JBL's own recommended cab size for a single E140 is manageable. I'm going to keep my eyes out for something approximating those dimensions. it may well be i'd be better off with a 2225 or something since I'm really looking to emphasise the bottom end and in fact i've just bought one of those this very evening, so I'll compare and contrast when it arrives, although at much lower sensitivity it might be better suited for biamping ultimately.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldcountryJim View Post
    Speaker design for guitar is really a personal matter, so there's no right or wrong answer. If you get the sound you want, its right. If this were sound reinforcement or reproduction you would likely seek a flatter, uncolored response.

    Having said that, the low end in the proposed system will be less than it could be. Baron030 already pointed out the the output drop below the mid 100 hz, but there's also a difference in sensitivity between E140's (100db) and E120's (103 db). http://www.jblpro.com/pub/components/eseries.pdf You will have to think about the difference in volume of what's coming out of the E120's and the frequencies rolled off by the E140 cabinet. If you play harmonics on the G B and E strings on the seventh fret or above, those tones are going to cut through the mix. The crossover point will make a difference as to where the difference in volume occurs, but doesn't necessarily solve the problem.

    Again, whether this is good or bad, isn't decided on paper. Its up to you and your audience.

    You could add attenuation to the crossover to give it flexibility.

  11. #26
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    Hi folks

    I'm reviving this old thread because I'm back on this project.

    I now have a great cabinet and an E110, so I'm two thirds of the way there, but I'm looking for recommendations for a 15" bass driver to pair with the E110. I will use a crossover.

    I had thought to stick with the E series and use an E145 but they are hard to find in Europe and I haven't seen any. I would be grateful for recommendations of other drivers that might pair well with the E110 and give good response down to 45Hz. The E110 will handle all the mids.

    I have an M252 around I could employ if people think that might be a good option.

    Many thanks,

    Toby

  12. #27
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    2226, http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwo...srx-boxes.html. The box is pretty big though. 2226 is easy to get and cheap as well.

    Mårten

  13. #28
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    2227 for sale in UK: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JBL-2227-1...item56772f674e

    More modern magnet than 2226. Better cone, will go higher as well. This is a very good price since they are rare.

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    Tak Mårten,

    i think i might even have one of those that needs a recone!

    I'll measure the dimensions of the box i have at the moment to see if it will work.

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    pricewise that's too much for me. I can get an E145 for that money if I import it.

    What i have already is a 2225H in need of repair.

    Quote Originally Posted by more10 View Post
    2227 for sale in UK: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JBL-2227-1...item56772f674e

    More modern magnet than 2226. Better cone, will go higher as well. This is a very good price since they are rare.

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