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Thread: High cost Speaker wire, interconnectors and upgraded power cords?

  1. #31
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    Talking about power cables though, Cardas and many others have flitration built into the cables. Either with inductance, capacitance or both. If you are in an area of bad power line harmonics and noise, these cables may be of some benefit.
    Talking about speaker cables, the best will be standard enameled copper wire at a particular wire spacing. This is of course not very practical. Teflon insulated cable is very low capacitance and rather expensive but extremely good spec wise. Uber cheap cables can adversely effect frequency response. Stock standard copper flex is very cheap and works extremely well. Bigger siaes for higher power.
    Talking about Optical cables, a $5 cable from China will probably perform as good as a $500 cable from fantasy land. The expensive cable will probably perform better over 500m because it "may" be made of clearer glass but lets face it, most of our optical cables are only 1-2 m long. Same pretty much as HDMI.

    All that said, there is a huge market for relieving cash from peoples walletts because they are a, poorly informed, or b, they dont care and only want to be able to say that the spent a grand on a cable and they can clearly hear the cromulent features of the cable the embiggens the musical soundstage.

    Allan.

    Oh, as for the D66000 comment, Are they worth $60K? The people with $60K who would buy them would agree, playing a 35khz test tone most Labradors would agree they sound fantastic.

  2. #32
    Senior Member BMWCCA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium Dome View Post
    I've written about my alloy wheel analogy before. I had steel wheels with small hub caps on my Sorento, and it saved a few hundred bucks, but it just looked cheap. Virtually every other Sorento I saw had alloy wheels and looked much cooler. I'm sure they didn't drive faster or better, but they looked better. When I recently got a new car, I got some bitchin' wheels. It's a four banger stick, better mileage, ULEV, etc., but not nearly as powerful as the Sorento, yet man I feel like I'm driving a meaner machine with those fancy wheels. Yes it's perception, but, guess what, unless we're blind we all appreciate with our eyes as well as our ears.
    Everyone's car runs better after it's been washed or detailed. Fact or perception?

    But alloy wheels versus steel? There is a measurable and perceptible difference. First, assuming we're talking a quality alloy wheel, the aluminum alloy is lighter than a steel wheel. Forged aluminum is lighter and stronger still than a cast alloy, in most cases. Now T-dome is talking Kia, so all bets may be off in applying measurable improvement but the goal of an alloy wheel (in the past) was to lower unsprung weight where it is most critical to handling. Sure lowering the mass of the entire car helps but lowering the "unsprung" mass where the suspension is working allows the suspension to react quicker and for the shocks and springs to control that reaction. Even among alloys of the same size there can be as much as a ten-to-twenty pound difference in the wheel/tire assembly. I have a fine 17-inch OZ alloy wheel (the Saturn that was the standard wheel on the Lotus Esprit V8) that I've used on my BMW. Mounted with the same tire, that combination is thirteen-pounds heavier than the BMW-issue M5 alloy including its two-piece magnesium wheel fan. The difference in feel of the car with the lighter wheels is immediately noticeable, desirable, and measurable. Lighter is better (something you'd think Colin Chapman and Lotus would have wanted in their car).

    I don't miss T-domes point. But then it is a Kia. Alloys are there for "looks", not for strength or conservation of un-sprung weight. And the driver feels better because they like the look. I like a shiny, freshly painted car, too, but doubt that increases the performance in a measurable way.

    Most of us grew up in the era of "If it feels good, do it!" Doesn't mean some actions or objects don't measurably alter our experience. I'm sure the DD6600 would alter mine! Even if the wiring to them doesn't. Much of this is psycho-babble, but improvement offered by a a good alloy wheel (at least) is real just as much as a good tire improves handling over a round-and-black Cooper of other such crap.
    ". . . as you have no doubt noticed, no one told the 4345 that it can't work correctly so it does anyway."—Greg Timbers

  3. #33
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    Having a good shine on a car does increase performance that is very measurable and is the reason most race cars are polished right before the race. However, the difference between a dull finish and a highly polished finish on a standard road car will not be obvious to the driver.

    Allan.

  4. #34
    Senior Member herki the cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    Listening is subjective... we have no choice, we can take objective measurements, but ultimately all listening is subjective. Even a blind or double blind listening session is subjective to some extent. Keep reading...

    I recently watched a very intriguing podcast by Stereophile's John Atkinson of Stereophile where he discussed human perception as it relates to audio. He discussed some audio studies that he has participated in as well others that he is familiar with and anecdotal experiences as well. This podcast isn't a typical Stereophile article where potential advertising dollars are at risk... if you are interested I encourage you to slog through the dull bits, there are some significant nuggets in there. His comments don't "answer" the mysteries of audio, but they certainly make you look at many of our everyday audio controversies differently.

    In short, he discusses how our expectations can create our aural reality. One example he cites is the initial reaction to the original Edison recordings where they were considered "flawless recreations"... i.e., since people had no previous experience with reproduced audio, even the relatively crude early recordings were perceived as being exact reproductions and indiscernible from the original because people had no expectations. He discusses several other examples of how our experience and expectations color our perception of reality. Another interesting one is a test that was performed at Acoustic Research. In this case there is a flashing light in a dark room... when the light changes location, the viewer's brain keeps it in the previous location and eventually slowly pans it across the field until it is in the correct location instead of simply relocating it... because the viewer thought he knew where it was. (Listen to the podcast, it is pretty intriguing.)

    The bottom line, our expectations have such a strong and convincing effect that we are certain when we hear this or that. For example, if a forum member ships me his favorite cables and I hear no change over my typical cables it is likely due to the fact that I didn't expect there to be a difference.... conversely, he was hoping these cables would aid his search for audio nirvana... and when he installs them, they do.

    I realize this asks more questions than it answers, but I think it answers how an AC line cord can have an audible effect... an effect that the happy owner is so convinced of, or how a number of other seemingly impossible solutions can make some people satisfied customers when others scratch their heads. I am not suggesting that anyone who has heard a difference with Mpingo discs etc. is a fool... hell, I've heard the difference, but then it faded much like the light in the AR study... but I am suggesting that we need more study in this area.

    Widget
    Mr. Widget, i bring this up with due respect to everyone __there is one entity most people do not have access to__ we don't all hear the same. A bilingual person from birth who ultimatly speaks four languages, in addition to extensive music experience during his first six years of life, will experience having the neurons in his brain wired in a unique manner to percieve music, speech, and sounds in a fantastic manner, and go crazy hearing music herki[quote /]

  5. #35
    RIP 2013 Rolf's Avatar
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    My point was that if a speaker cable is to thin, the power from the amp won't get true the cable and will not end up in the speaker terminals. To thin cables will not be able to transfere high power signal. It's like using a thin lamp cord driving a power tool that needs a thicker cable. What will happen? Yes the lamp cord will get hot, and finaly burn up. Over sized speaker cables is not necassery, but I doubt they will do any harm to the sound.

    Quote Originally Posted by BMWCCA View Post
    To push your analogy further: What will happen if you hook your fire-department hose to your domestic faucet? A rather pathetic dribble of water, is what. Same amount of water comes out, just no pressure. Sometimes those smaller "hoses" work better for what you're trying to achieve (washing your car?).

    But what the heck do I know? (not much) I'm using 6-Moons White Lightning speaker cables.

  6. #36
    Senior Member svollmer's Avatar
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    I can't say I've heard differences between power cables, interconnects, or speaker cables. But there are a great deal of all of these types of cables out there at very reasonable prices (some new, some used) that would fall into what I believe we're discussing as "high-end" or "boutique" cables. As such, I'm not going to use those spaghetti-thin grey interconnects with red and white molded ends, I'm not using white zip cord from Home Depot for speaker cables, and I don't use extension cord 16/3 SJT power cables when I can get very good cables for almost dirt cheap. By "good", I mean physically tough and built to last AND look good, not necessarily just the companies who advertise and are recognized the most. Examples are Canare (used by broadcast professionals around the world), Mogami, DH Labs, Blue Jeans, etc.

    My "fire hose" power cables are all PS Audio that I got for around $40-75 each used off Audiogon. I assume Mark Levinson (Harman) thinks they're not necessary because they shipped their stuff with regular 'ol cords. But, I figured since I wired several dedicated 20A circuits when finishing my room (12 AWG wire), why not run it nice all the way to the equipment? And I LOVE the look of the behemoths. Audio is different for everyone. We should celbrate the fact that some members' systems sound outstanding without esoteric cables, while others dig "dressing" their systems up.

    It saddens me that there seems to be two camps in this ongoing debate. The first are those who would never use upgraded cables because their logic tells them they're not worth it and even if they were given upgraded cables free of charge, they wouldn't use them because the outside world would think them idiots. The second are those who refuse to entertain the possibility that a cable can sound good if it doesn't cost a bunch of money; more $ always equals better sound. Neither makes sense to me.

    So, I don't think one has to pay a bunch to get good quality. But, I also never expected to really hear a difference between cables, so maybe that's why I don't. I also don't hear a night and day improvement from my Levinson 332 amp over my old Adcom GFA-565's, but I don't care. I think the Levinson is a beautiful piece of industrial art that makes me happy every time I turn it on. I guess I'm in the camp of make it sound great first, then make it look beautiful too. I enjoy good sound and good looks.

    If we really want to talk about what makes HUGE improvements to sound without spending much at all, we could talk about room acoustics. I'd rather have a modest system in a great room than a $100,000 system in a terrible room.

    FWIW: Here are some PS power cables on Audiogon right now for $75 each:


  7. #37
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    My 2 cents worth.

    Common sense suggests you should budget proportionally within the laws of diminishing returns.

    However if you had an infinantly short power cable, speaker cable and intereconnect you would find be it low fi or hi end the equipment components you own it has a house sound.

    That is quite often deliberate by design. This is where the fun starts.

    The ear candy (cables) help spice up the tonality of your system and those players in this industry know that.

    Looking at it from a somewhat technical perspective most people dont release the importance of good termination like Cardas and WBT and Eichman make.

    You should also clean the terminations regularly.

    If you add snubbers to those noisey bridge rectifiers or better still put in low noise types an used a seperate mains supply circuit just for audio the special power cable is a bit pointless.

  8. #38
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    Just for fun here is a CLIO measurement of an inexpensive 6' interconnect.

    Hello Herki

    We also make DC/DC converters that take the raw power from the solar bus and convert it to a more usable voltage. We use highspeed switching supplies to do it. There is noise from this that gets filtered. It's all about proper design. You can't depend on your power cord to do what should have been done from the begining.

    Hello Titanium Dome Off with his Head- Alice in Wonderland

    Not sure that this meant? What was all that bad

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  9. #39
    Senior Member Eaulive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    The bottom line, our expectations have such a strong and convincing effect that we are certain when we hear this or that. For example, if a forum member ships me his favorite cables and I hear no change over my typical cables it is likely due to the fact that I didn't expect there to be a difference.... conversely, he was hoping these cables would aid his search for audio nirvana... and when he installs them, they do.

    Widget
    There, no need to add more
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  10. #40
    Senior Member herki the cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    Just for fun here is a CLIO measurement of an inexpensive 6' interconnect.Hello HerkiWe also make DC/DC converters that take the raw power from the solar bus and convert it to a more usable voltage. We use highspeed switching supplies to do it. There is noise from this that gets filtered. It's all about proper design. You can't depend on your power cord to do what should have been done from the begining. Hello Titanium Dome Off with his Head- Alice in WonderlandNot sure that this meant? What was all that badRob
    [Quote Robh]... It's all about proper design. You can't depend on your power cord to do what should have been done from the begining...[Quote/]

    I think you are refering to the magnificient design already executed in your "high speed switching converter" and i do agree.

    Power conditioner are required to clean up AC Power for purchased Audio Components, and the Purpose of the Power Cord Filters is to clean up the Gossip between the Audio Components, especially the 14 KHz horizontal scan buss from the Television, & to a very useful extent, the noise from all the florescent lighting in the House. A 10 mH series inductor in a "Zero Surge Inc, Supressor" preceeds my " MIT inc.," power conditioner presenting a wide- band "five ohm shunt" across the AC power lines.

    Note that the Zero Surge Inc,. Suppressor DOES NOT employ self- distructing MOV's which typically dump surge energy into the AC Power Green safety wire_ the third prong of the AC Power Connector. Under Writers Labs specify a strict limit of 5 milliamperes Max' into the green safety wire since a 6 milliampere shock is considered lethal to humans.

  11. #41
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    well, everybody has an opinion on this subject and these threads usually progress along the same lines.


    Pierre Sprey , the self professed genius at MapleShade takes an alternate tact ... thinner is better.

    thin speaker wire , thin interconnects

    http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Clea...epartments/86/
    http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Doub...s/products/83/

    and I recall that in the catalog tips & tricks section he said ...(to paraphrase, since I can't find it)

    "an 8 foot run of speaker wire sounds noticeably better than a 4 foot run"

    although I can't remember the reasoning behind that one .... gives the electrons more room to accelerate ?



    I do recall tho that when I was monetarily challenged in the 1970's , 4 solid copper wire telephone cable got used for long speaker runs ... and sounded just fine and that stuff is what ??... 22 gauge ??? don't recall any electron bottlenecks where some didn't get through.


    full disclosure section: yes, I do use a cheap Furman power conditioner, seems to help with the random noises a little.
    Some kind of happiness is measured out in miles

  12. #42
    Senior Member DavidF's Avatar
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    Cable and wire swapping is to me like tube swapping. To some it is an enjoyable pursuit of stasis that will never be attained. Likely these folks don't really want to attain stasis. Like a chef constantly reworking ingredients. Throw in a new turn table or digital source into the chain and that’s like the planets shifting in rotation around the sun. Time to realign the whole system. Start over again. What a way to spend a Saturday afternoon.

    If you have the time and money, go for it. To me I just need the wire to perform its function. Otherwise it gets to be added distraction from projects needing more time and attention- audio related or otherwise.
    David F
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  13. #43
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    It's all about proper design. You can't depend on your power cord to do what should have been done from the begining
    Absolutely.

    Example: I recently bought a new Audiolab 8200cd CD player.

    The moment I walked in the front door of the shop the retailor was talking to me like I had to understand what HIFI was about.

    To cut long long story short the rep wouId not let me leave without borrowing a fancy power cord worth about $150.00 as he said I needed the lead to fully realise the potential of the new 8200cd.

    In the manual of the 8200cd I read it has a very elaborate PS with 34 regulators. 14 are ultra low noise discrete designs combined with LC filtering for maximal interstage and RF isolation and lmost 250,000 bulk storage capacitance. The regulators around the ESS Sabre32 DAC use bulk de-coupling with organic ultra low ESR capacitors.

    I played the machine with and without the fancy power lead. Having read the above my expectation was the power lead would make no difference. If anything I thought it sounded worse with the fancy power lead so it was returned.

    *As it turns out this a quite a good CD player worthy of discussion elsewhere

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post

    Hello Titanium Dome Off with his Head- Alice in Wonderland

    Not sure that this meant? What was all that bad

    Rob
    I wanted to write ass-kickin' but I'd already cussed twice, so I used the butt (moon) smilie instead.
    Out.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMWCCA View Post
    Everyone's car runs better after it's been washed or detailed. Fact or perception?


    I don't miss T-domes point. But then it is a Kia. Alloys are there for "looks", not for strength or conservation of un-sprung weight. And the driver feels better because they like the look. I like a shiny, freshly painted car, too, but doubt that increases the performance in a measurable way.

    but improvement offered by a a good alloy wheel (at least) is real just as much as a good tire improves handling over a round-and-black Cooper of other such crap.
    What does "washed and detailed" mean?



    Besides being several hundred dollars cheaper at MSRP, the Kia steel wheels (with 15 drilled holes) weigh less than the beefy alloys. I'd guess most people who opt for alloys, or add custom wheels are not thinking at all about unsprung weight or improved handling. They're buying the look. That doesn't negate the truth of what you're saying when done in a knowledgeable fashion, but the majority of buyers don't think about, understand, or apply the principles you note. Why that's just like a lot of cable and speaker wire buyers, too, right?

    Of course, the car buyer and the stereo or HT buyer will be upsold by the sales associate, just like a McDonald's counter worker: "Do you want fries with that?"

    "Do you want the alloys with that? They add a sporty look and really improve handling and mileage."

    "Do you want the high quality interconnects, speaker cables, and power cord with that? You don't want a fine system handicapped by the wires being a weak link?

    No matter which side you're on, it's pretty freaking hilarious what a little marketing and salesmanship can do.
    Out.

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