High cost Speaker wire, interconnectors and upgraded power cords?

[tom1040]

After reading about the merits of such upgrades-both positive and negative opinions, is there anybody who can offer some scientific facts that back up the claims that a vast improvement ( or significant improvement ) justifies the rather large amount of cash for such things? Or, as I suspect, they are mostly gimmicks for the audiophile that has too much spare change lying around?

Besides looking good, is thier a positive change in the MUSIC? Just curious how this site looks upon these upgrades.

Thanks to all! Happy Holidays!!!

[hjames]

After reading about the merits of such upgrades-both positive and negative opinions, is there anybody who can offer some scientific facts that back up the claims that a vast improvement ( or significant improvement ) justifies the rather large amount of cash for such things? Or, as I suspect, they are mostly gimmicks for the audiophile that has too much spare change lying around?

Besides looking good, is there a positive change in the MUSIC? Just curious how this site looks upon these upgrades.

Thanks to all! Happy Holidays!!!

Wow - this is a topic that never fails to light up the forum!
I don't think you can get a monolithic "LHS agrees" or LHS disagrees" perspective -

From all I have ever read (and a good audio idea in general) ...
... if you can't hear a difference, its not worth the money, no matter what ANYBODY says.

[Robh3606]

"Besides looking good, is thier a positive change in the MUSIC? Just curious how this site looks upon these upgrades."

Well depends on the upgrade. Berylium, Aguaplased diaphrams and Charge Coupled networks are all upgrades that work. They are all subtle but definite improvements. Fat power cords and $500 interconnects are another issue entirely. In my mind you should always use good quality interconnects, that's just common sense. I don't think that you should have to spend a great deal of money to get them.

Rob

[tom1040]

"Besides looking good, is thier a positive change in the MUSIC? Just curious how this site looks upon these upgrades."

Well depends on the upgrade. Berylium, Aguaplased diaphrams and Charge Coupled networks are all upgrades that work. They are all subtle but definite improvements. Fat power cords and $500 interconnects are another issue entirely. In my mind you should always use good quality interconnects, that's just common sense. I don't think that you should have to spend a great deal of money to get them.

Rob

Thanks. However, I was asking about A.T.F. components to an existing system. I am not going to change out my stock 1400 Array ('cause I love it, as designed). I am unsure why "fat power cords & $$ interconnects" detract from my original inquiry..?

Those issues, infact, were my questions. For instance, with my Marantz MA9S2 monoblocks, would a 'better' power cord remit a magical musical passage of a song? Interconnectors serve a purpose. But is it something that would ADD to the sound? Would the Marantz SC7S2 or SA7S1 sound 'better' with the Arrays with (you name them) interconnectors?

Seriously, I am curious about this. If, in fact, someone can say that it does & how it does it, I would like to understand.

Again, thanks to all!



PS: as is the Arrays sound fantastic. I am researching

[rusty jefferson]

Thanks. However, I was asking about A.T.F. components to an existing system. I am not going to change out my stock 1400 Array ('cause I love it, as designed). I am unsure why "fat power cords & $$ interconnects" detract from my original inquiry..?

Those issues, infact, were my questions. For instance, with my Marantz MA9S2 monoblocks, would a 'better' power cord remit a magical musical passage of a song? Interconnectors serve a purpose. But is it something that would ADD to the sound? Would the Marantz SC7S2 or SA7S1 sound 'better' with the Arrays with (you name them) interconnectors?

Seriously, I am curious about this. If, in fact, someone can say that it does & how it does it, I would like to understand.

Again, thanks to all!



PS: as is the Arrays sound fantastic. I am researching

I just did a quick Audiogon check of the gear you mentioned in your system. Depending on your source, it looks like you've got a system value (retail) approaching $25,000. Some of what gave those components elevated value, and hopefully improved performance, are things like higher quality film capacitors, mil spec resistors, and possibly higher quality wire. Solid core silver wire, maybe?

If you've got this system in a good listening space, unencumbered by compromises of placement and furniture, etc. and you are using $7.00 interconnects and lamp cord from the Best Buy, I guarantee you will hear an improvement with better quality wire. Why? I can't answer that. I don't know if the engineers that design wire really know why.

The issue then becomes, at what price point should we spend, or at what point will I no longer hear, or my system will no longer reveal improvement? Only one way to find out. Does this mean you should spend $5000 on wire tomorrow? No. It has to be an amount that makes you comfortable, just like all the other pieces of equipment you bought, and will take some experimenting. It's possible that brand "X" mono blocks would have improved the sound of your system and cost $2000 less than the ones you have, but you're comfortable with the ones you have.

[JeffW]

While people claim to hear differences, it still boggles my mind on the power cords. House is wired with say 12/2 Romex to the outlet, then you put a $$$ power cord between the outlet in the wall and the plug on the rear of the amp, but you pull the cover on the amp and it's just plain old 12ga copper from the plug to the circuitry in the amp. I have a hard time wrapping my head around how this particular 3ft piece in the entire chain could make such a difference.

I say let people buy what they like, but I'm awfully skeptical on this part.

[Eaulive]

If you've got this system in a good listening space, unencumbered by compromises of placement and furniture, etc. and you are using $7.00 interconnects and lamp cord from the Best Buy, I guarantee you will hear an improvement with better quality wire. Why? I can't answer that. I don't know if the engineers that design wire really know why.

Why? Because your unconscious self wants to hear a difference in order to justify the expense, it's all psychological, just like you feel your car runs smoother and quicker after giving it a good wash.


Emperor's new clothes.

[Eaulive]

High cost Speaker wire, interconnectors and upgraded power cords?

Is there anybody who can offer some scientific facts that back up the claims that a vast improvement ( or significant improvement ) justifies the rather large amount of cash for such things? Or, as I suspect, they are mostly gimmicks for the audiophile that has too much spare change lying around?

If you had to ask, then you have the answer

For this the famous PT Barnum quote is spot on

[Lee in Montreal]

There are two answers to your question.

Some people like when their car looks "good". So they dress it up with all the Pep Boy accessories. So yes, those "fancy" interconnectors work. They bling.

The second answer is simple. Any wire has inductance, capacitance and resistance. Any single wire you can buy. Be they at $5.00 or $500.00... Wires that have capacitive caracter will cut lower frequencies. Wires that have inductive caracter will cut highs. So, yes you can tune your system with interconnects. But are they better than other regular wires? It depends on how you want to tune your system.

My own answer is simple. Biggest scam on earth.

[Ducatista47]

Most of the high priced "offerings" make my BS detector twitch. The problem is that transparency is difficult to prove, and transparency is the best any audio component could deliver. It is, however, easy to define. Nothing should be added, nothing should be lost.

Most of the claims of high priced copper and silver products sound like they are striving to improve something. The only improvement worth buying is the stuff getting out of the way of the signal. Not enhancing it, not refining it, not putting it on steroids. Just passing it through unaltered. All the electronics fed by this copper or silver should do the same, except for amplification at some point.

If you want the best interconnects, since the best interconnect is no interconnect, buy high quality integrated amps to eliminate at least that connection. As for the wire you really need, as Robb said, transparent should not cost much, and, I would add, should not require any special technology. I suspect that the electrons coming out an ultra pure silver cable are no different from those going to a light bulb socket at the end of a lamp cord.

[herki the cat]

.... The problem is that transparency is difficult to prove,... I suspect that the electrons coming out an ultra pure silver cable are no different from those going to a light bulb socket at the end of a lamp cord.

Well, you could say: .... "The problem has to do with the hardware propogating or transporting electrons to the speakers, and the ability of the loud speaker to convert electrons to sound."herki[Quote/]

[pathfindermwd]

I wanted to chime in here because in my very minor audiophile pursuit I have read, then tried the twisted pair solution.

While I fully understand for myself that this is subjective perception, I believe it has helped - generally. The music seems cleaner, and the responses quicker. This cleaner response seems (to me) to also impart a "brighter" effect; not always something I appreciate already owning the L100t, which needs no help with this. Again, I understand that this is subjective, my friends see it differently, and I can see why, their systems sound great, and they use regular lamp cable, and they could afford- whatever. I have never gotten to play with their gear though.

I can perceive (not hear) a small change with it though in my system that I get to play with, and I can't really put it into words. But just because I lack words to express what I perceive, does not mean there is nothing to the perception...

Having explained that, I keep hearing that it's just electricity, and that take confuses me somewhat. I see it as a signal that must be kept clean. Twisted pair was made for clean signal (to be simplistic), and my understanding is that without it noise would enter the wire and garble data (in data applications). Given that we are talking about a positive and negative signal running together, it makes sense to me that this close two way traffic could effect the signal, as well as other outside effects such as static electricity from the carpet. Again, I just don't understand why some sum it all up as just an electrical signal, to me it is an electrical-data signal. I remember that years ago they talked about putting data signal through the wires in your home but they couldn't do it, too much noise they said. I am sure that it's obvious to some that I am not well educated in the electrical sciences, but according to what I do understand this just seems like common sense, that it's not the electricity that I am trying to keep clean, but the musical data riding in that signal, and that is more difficult to quantify because we can't also see or smell the perfection of it. But, we may still be able to perceive it, and that is not easy to explain either!

I just have two examples i want to give about this perception to make my point better understood. Sometimes when I listen to AM radio a song will come on, a song I have heard many time before. But suddenly I am taken back to a memory of when I was a kid and my older siblings would listen to music, the song sounds as I remember it, enough to instigate a memory. It doesn't happen to me when I hear that song on XM radio though, why? There is just something about the way music sounds on AM, can't really explain it, but we all know that music does sound different on AM.

Second, some of you may have gotten that email that explains that if you jumble up letters in a word, but keep the first and last letter in the same place, you can still read it!

Do you know what I am syaing?

Your brain is so capable, it can still make sense of a slightly garbled word. So if you can still read it, does it then really matter if it's misspelled? Is it possible that even if your audio signal is a little garbled, your brain is still able to interpret/fill in the missing information to an extent that you are not completely aware of it? Some might call this pointless if your brain can still read it, others would claim that it matters if it's misspelled. I think this is really at the crux of the argument here today, that your brain, not your ears can compensate for an unclean signal to the extent that what your ears hear become irrelevant.

So is (multi) twisted pair better? I don't know. But when I use it, I know that theory behind it should contribute to it for the better (as I listen to my mp3's also knowing full well that it's less than perfect). My point is simply that just because your brain is so capable that it can make sense of music filled with noise (instantly), is no reason to not try to eliminate the noise/imperfection, and have the best sound possible. This effort will vary by the individual, but I think we could all agree that it's a worthy effort! Perhaps cables is not the best use of the effort, but not an unreasonable one either.

Many out there in the world cannot understand the money we spend on this equipment, or any system over a hundred dollars for that matter. I have offered my lower end speakers to family members, and they want them, but they won't spend a hundred bucks for a receiver, go figure? They have the same opinion as some that say there is no difference in speaker cable, only their measurement device is not an ohm meter, it's a dollar sign, and for them, the change in sound in slight, if they can even hear it while they are dancing around the house listening to a cheap JVC bookshelf. So who is right? I have no idea. I remember being a kid and listening to the new song on a cheap car radio, and being happy. Music is not all this equipment, this equipment just aims to serve it better, and whatever the effort, we always seem to fall short of the perfect execution, but for us, at least it's not a matter of not trying. I admire that.

Except for $1k cables, that's just silly!