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Thread: Please some advice on my onken cabinet build with altec 416b woofers

  1. #1
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    Please some advice on my onken cabinet build with altec 416b woofers

    Hello Lads,
    I had posted before on Altec 515B cabinets, but since then I have changed directions, as I came into a pristine pair of Altec 416B woofers, and have decided on building a pair of full size Onken cabinets for them with my 288C drivers with the German Jabo conical horns sitting on top.

    I am contracting with a cabinet maker to acquire the wood and do the cuts, as I do not have a table sayw that can do the precision cuts needed for a tight build, and his big shop saws can do. He will also cut out the speaker hole and drill all the screw holes for me. I will end up with a "kit" that I can assemble in my garage.

    I need to make final decisions on the build before wood hits saw.
    He can get 13 ply Baltic Birch plywood in a high quality form. I can order 3/4" or one inch thick sheets, The problem is that one inch sheets adds $40.00 per sheet over the 3/4" That's $240.00 extra to the total cost of the six sheets needed for a pair of cabinets.

    So the question is, IS 3/4" adequate? or does one need to stick to the Hiagra 25mm or 1" thick sheet stock? is the 1/4" extra going to make that much more difference in the end?

    Next is insulation. Following the Hiagra build, it appears he is using lambs wool felt applied only on the back and upper 3/4's of the sides of the baffles.
    I see from Onken build sites on the web, that many new builds are using a full insulation with an additional back insulation of what appears to be audio grade foam sheet. except on the ports of course

    And lastly, does the Onken box box sound best flat on the floor, on a plinth or riser, or even casters? My house has wood floors with area rugs, and my current floor speakers are the Sansui big 5500 the large mid horn filled version. These are on a 3 inch plinth and produce a very good full bass even on the bare floor.

    Any Onken builders or speaker experts in the crowd, I could use some input on these questions before I start writing checks.
    Thank you,
    Donald Bowman

  2. #2
    Senior Member stephane RAME's Avatar
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    The scan text and original plans in french of the audiophile magazine.

    http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...t-Onken-W-quot

    Stéphane

    http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...t-Plains-audio

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    Plans in French

    Stefan,
    Thank you,
    I have all of them and more, but they do not address the issues I am asking about.
    As per insulation other than lamb's felt, 3/4" versus 1" thick plywoof etc.
    Thank you,
    Donald

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    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Other than listening to Onken designs a few times I have no DIY experience with them. I have built quite a few other designs however and I would definitely spring for the 1" material. In my own projects I typically use a 3/4" MDF layer laminated to a 3/4" birch-ply layer... this gives an extremely well damped yet rigid panel.

    As for the acoustic damping material, I don't know where you will be able to source "lamb's wool", but the damping material and amount of it will affect the sound. Luckily with a large woofer hole, it is rather easy to make adjustments after the enclosure is built. My personal favorite acoustic damping material is 1" non-shedding fiberglass insulation or Sonex foam. The Sonex is rather expensive, but is really outstanding.

    As for plinths, risers etc., to some extent that type of adjustment is room dependent. I think you will have to experiment.

    Sounds like a great project... don't scrimp on a couple of hundred bucks on the front end, down the road, that amount will seem rather trivial.

    Widget

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    t... don't scrimp on a couple of hundred bucks on the front end, down the road, that amount will seem rather trivial.

    Widget

    -Ditto

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    No scrimping

    Thanks Lads,
    I guess I will have to bite the bullet on this, as this is going to wind up at around $1200 for wood and labor, might as well spen the other $250.0 for the 1" birch.

    So onto insulation, as Lab felt can be found, it is almost untouchable in price. I am quite sure that there are better products.
    I am adding a photo of the interior of a recent Onken build from a Frenc site. Just photos of the build, no text.
    You can see the insulation that was added to the interior, can anyone comment on tis?
    Plus here is a photo of the finished build from the same site.

    Thanks,
    Donald
    Attached Images Attached Images   

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    Senior Member stephane RAME's Avatar
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    Stephane

    Stephane
    Thank you, but it appears you are using a totally different design with your speakers, you have a double wall with felt between the wall. I am building an original Onken for the Altec 416B with an exterior HF horn.

    Also the Ispra.net site you posted, is the same site I posted my attachments are from showing a non felt insulation.
    Thank you

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    hello,
    don't be afraid to experiment for yourself, for instance i did not put felt but thibaude (cheap carpet underlay made of scraps of felt) and no second isolating panel behind the driver, i felt that it muffled the sound. Another change is to make the rear panel of the box removable instead of the front one: you don't see the screws and since it holds the driver i think it's better.
    Mine are on casters, they are a little away from the floor, but the main reason is their weight if you need to move them because they're heavy.
    Best regards,
    Jean

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    O)nken cabinet build details.

    Hello Lads,
    Thanks for the information.
    I was able to get a reply from Manuel that did the photo build site at Ispra.Net - Alex Patak Audio

    He reports that his build was from 25MM "phenolic Beech" plywood, and the insulation was 10MM unbleached wool felt. the best results were from directly on a heavily carpeted floor.

    I guess I will go the purist route on this, just need to find the extra dough to commit to this project.

    The only thing I can find no definitive answer to is the Altec 416A or 416B choice, While Hiagra wrote that "he did not care for the sound of the B, there was no other reflection as to why.
    I have not found anyone so far with experience with both the woofers to expound on it.

    But, for now, I have a near new pair of 416B woofers,, in the future I could indeed try the A, as it would not be too hard to swap woofers, at most just making a new front board, and of course finding and buying a pair.

    Anyone out there with both versions of the 416 that can comment?

    As for amps, I own a Pioneer Spec 2, and Spec 4, a pioneer Sa 9100 and a Sa 9800, plus a number of 70's receivers.
    I will be looking for a tube amp soon, just not sure what to look at that is within a reasonable price.
    Thank you all.
    Donald Bowman

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    hello Donald,

    i don't think that directly on the floor or 10 cm higher on feet or casters can make a big difference seing the frequencies involved, but i often read that it's better to leave some air below the speakers.

    As for the altec versions, i have the C and very satisfied by it, a friend had the B (Alnico version) in Onken box and i always found the bass a little muddy - after some years of trials of many kinds he has moved to other speakers. maybe the drivers , being a little old , had lost their magnetism as it is sait to happen to alnico. If i had to start now i'd buy a 416-8C at Great Plains Audio and be safe for the next 30 years (i bought mine new in 1982 - a few years before Altec stopped, so if you buy an old one it will be at least 30 or more for the B or A series).
    IMHO there is an oversized magic aura around Onken boxes , they are only bass-reflex as demonstrated by J. mahul in l'audiophile with ports on the side like Jensen speakers (it's often called Oken-Jensen).
    Their superior quality lies in the fantastic driver, the good wood, the big volume and the big vented area. Koizumi did many other boxes: Onken W with 2 drivers with just 2 holes as vents, another one like the A7,... I'd be curious to to know if someone has made just a box of the same volume and same ports area and lenght but in one piece below the driver and compared it to the original - maybe i'll do it someday.

    By the way, do you intend to make them yourself or have them made? They are very easy to make if you buy the plywood cut at the good dimensions .
    best regards,
    Jean

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    Hey Donald,

    Looks like a nice project.

    I think the 1" ply is a good move, worth the extra expense. Wish I had used it on my DIY cabinets instead of 1" MDF. I wasn't aware of it's superior properties at the time I started.

    I am a big proponent of plinths under speaker cabinets, especially large woofer and subwoofer cabinets. The set-up under mine are pretty pricey, but I don't see any reason you couldn't DIY them also. I don't think the material is as critical as the mass in applications like this. The thicker and heavier the better. I'm using cone shaped feet between the speakers and plinth, and also between the plinth and the floor. The difference in quality of bass between the speakers sitting on the floor directly, and sitting on the feet/plinths is nothing short of amazing.

    As to the insulation, a knowledgeable friend recommended a low bulk wool (the type used for felt) that was not yet felted, but loose. Several pounds were packaged into a small box for shipping, but then I "combed" it into a fluffy (cotton candy like) web, and filled the cabinets with it. You may just be able to see it in the picture inside the port.

    I'd like to thank the forum for making the plans for these speakers available, and the members for sharing their knowledge of all things JBL and quality audio in general. I know the feet/plinth/wool fill I'm using may be unconventional, but these speakers have exceeded my expectations. They replaced two factory B-380s and are a great upgrade.

    Jim (Rusty)



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    Member reVintage's Avatar
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    Go for the original design, there is no reason to do it otherwise. If you check the original article below you can see it should be built with 25mm/1":

    http://www.ispra.net/audio/Onken/Aud...-hiraga01.html

    I built the Petit Onken (414A) many years ago and I don´t regret for a minute that I used 25mm.
    Brgds
    Lars

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    Thanks Lars,

    Thanks,
    After a lot of footwork and advisement, I am now committed to the 1" Baltic Birch plywood for the cabinets, and I am trying to find the 10 MM wool felt insulation.
    I am still trying to find out if there is any real difference between the 416A and the 416B in this cabinet besides the personal tastes of Hiagra.
    Thanks,
    Donald Bowman

  15. #15
    Senior Member Altec Best's Avatar
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    Go with the 416-8B !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrmonster11 View Post
    I am still trying to find out if there is any real difference between the 416A and the 416B in this cabinet besides the personal tastes of Hiagra.
    Thanks,
    Donald Bowman
    Hi Don, I think the 416B sounds the best to my ears but everyones tastes are different.Since you have a near mint set of 416B's I would use them.If they haven't been dropped or ridden hard chances are they won't need recharging.And since you say they are fairly new chances are they are good to go.The 416B's came in the model 19 and they are a great woofer.If you don't like them then you could always try something different.And I would be the first to take them off your hands. Good Luck with your project. Kind Regards ~ John
    "James B. Lansing" = Lansing Manufacturing ~ Altec Lansing ~ JBL

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