wolfshead's Hartsfield

[Fred Sanford]

It wasn't a duct; it was a continuation of the horn flare. And if you were there at the time, you'd know that improving the sound of the Hartsfield (before some people actually measured it) would have been Bill Thomas' primary consideration.

The fact that it was chosen as Life Magazine's "Dream System" actually scared us because we knew its faults. The original Bill Hartsfield design was convoluted at best, and pretty shitty below 90 Hz. The 375's frequency response dropped like a rock after 9 kHz. I think Bart and Bill saw improving the Hartsfield as a challenge. Adding Bill's 075 above 7 kHz helped out the top end considerably.

Almost all the Walnut Hartsfields would have been made at Casitas, not Fletcher Drive, and those would be the newer cabinet. I don't recall seeing any in Walnut with the original cabinet, but it is possible, I guess.

People today don't really appreciate how dedicated we were back then; it was an extended family, and we were all fanatics about quality.

As far as the Hartsfield was concerned, and knowing Bill Thomas as well as I did; it would never have been primarily about cutting costs on making the Hartsfield. The primary goal at JBL was always sonic quality - at least it was back then. And all those "other publications' opinions" you allude to; it's just that: their opinions, not facts. Talk to Johnny Edwards; he was there too.

And I'm sorry if this post sounds like I'm pissed off; well actually I am. JBL in the 50's and 60's was the most amazing company I've ever worked at. I ate dinner at Bill Thomas' house on N. Vermont and with Margaret and Bill in Santa Barbara many times, at Ed and Edna May's house, visited Johnny Edward's house in Glendale and went sailing with him to Catalina, and split two halves of a duplex with George Augspurger. You don't know what happened back then; I do.

Thank you, as always, for sharing your experiences. Sorry if some of the posts in this thread have ticked you off- we're all better for the facts you've ended up responding with and sharing with us, but it's too bad that it was prompted by somebody making you feel disrespected.

Hopefully you can trust in the fact that any future reader of this thread will take your experience and reputation into account, and know where the truth lies.

je

[wolfshead]

Well, yeah. And Wolfie's interaction with Harvey leaves no doubt as to the true nature of every "discussion" he's begun or "contributed" to here.

I'm amazed when I read reviews related to my field of expertise and find them in conflict with the facts. Knowing what I know makes me wonder about all reviews of products I don't understand or know well. When reviewers like Consumer Reports give black marks for one year of a product I know well, and the next year of the identical product gets green, I know their sample is skewed and the data simply wrong. (Their sample is CU members who return the survey, that's it.) Then I can't even trust their opinion on a toaster. Audio magazines are no different. Opinions are like a**holes; everyone has one.

Years ago my favorite BMW 5-series got black marks for "electrical system". Investigation by BMW found that the failure was dirty electric-antenna masts not fully retracting and getting bent, or cars in car washes getting antennae bent because the radio was left on. CU categorized those "failures" as "electrical system" problems. The next model, BMW did away with mast antennae completely. The radio reception suffered but the electrical system ratings were back to "green" in Consumer Reports.

You to did not read my post , Consumers union was not used as a reference. A well respected electronic magazine " Electronic world "was
my reference.
The person quoted was a respected pioneer in audio and electronics who was an insider at JBL , George Augspurger.
Mr. Augspurger wrote and had published several articles and books on
the subject of Hi-Fi.

If you are interested in the topic , do some research , there are many audio publications that reviewed and tested the Hartsfields.
Many of those reviewers and testers were well repected in the industry.
Than draw your own conclusion.

[scott fitlin]

Oh please, give it up already dude! When you first came to the forum, you insisted, YES YOU INSISTED pre 70,s speakers were superior to anything made today! Yeah, many things from the past, they had a nice sound, and up until recently, I might have preferred them to what we now have. But, they aren't SUPERIOR to todays top products, either.

Magazine articles, HEY, I read published specs for speakers and electronics EVERY day. You are aware there can be two sets of specs for a speaker too? The PUBLISHED specs the PUBLIC, like YOU and I, read. The in house specs that they DON'T MAKE available to us.

TOO MANY TIMES I MYSELF READ WELL RESPECTED REVIEWS, then, go and BUY or HEAR for MYSELF and MY OWN EARS do NOT agree with the WELL RESPECTED REVEIW!

So, as a direct result of my own feelings and experiences, that magazines, and reviews are good as a guide as to WHAT IS AVAILABLE, that is ALL I USE REVIEWS FOR! A GUIDE, not the LAST and FINAL WORD! MY EARS, NOT YOUR WORDS DICTATE TO ME, MY OWN POLICIES!

Now your refuting what Harvey is telling you, and Harvey is telling you what HE KNOWS, NOT THINKS!

Sure George Augspurger said positive things, and things he IS SUPPOSED TO SAY to a magazine! What did you want him to say? Well, the JBL speaker as it was originally, it sucked? I can find you 100 things in history that are outright lies! And millions of outright lies in advertising and business dating back to when this country began!

I understand that at your age your set in your ways, and you just don't want to hear anything other than what it is that you like, and most of what you like is GONE! And your entitled to think what you want to. But, Harvey Gerst is telling us the truth, because he was there, and more than likely put the drivers into your esteemed Hartsfields! He has no reason to lie. I take offense to your alluding to him telling us untruths!

IF it was just that you didn't like the speakers of later years, but YOU LIKE NOTHING OF TODAY! "I" with my earings, my taste in clothing, women, audio, cars, jewelry, music, foods, furnishings, ethical and moral values, EVERYTHING IS NOT UP TO YOUR STANDARDS! NO ONE BUT YOU HAS THE SAY SO!

You have things backwards. It is ONLY you who cannot get past a point in time, a time period you loved, BECAUSE THEY WERE YOUR TIMES!

[scott fitlin]

Mr Gerst already told you George was not there at the time of the design change, that George came along later.
You, sir, were not there either. What we are getting from you is merely your memory of things written by him -
a MUCH different thing. And frankly its insulting of you to deny someone who was ACTUALLY THERE.
We KNOW Mr Gerst has a place in these events - you, on the other hand, you are just a talker ...

I, myself, cannot understand how Wolf can't understand this, either!

[sheltiedave]

And the hatred continues to spew forth...

[hjames]

And the hatred continues to spew forth...

Why is it hatred when he denies someone who was actually there at the time, preferring instead to believe something he read?
Its the fact that he continues with this kind of belief even in the face of truth that gets so frustrating ...

Would you rather insult Harvey Gerst,
who has actual Lansing Heritage and has come here and shared personal experiences here?

[scott fitlin]

And the hatred continues to spew forth...

Yeah, and from Wolfs keyboard!

Just as he is not censored, neither are we, what can you do?

[wolfshead]

Well, yeah. And Wolfie's interaction with Harvey leaves no doubt as to the true nature of every "discussion" he's begun or "contributed" to here.

I'm amazed when I read reviews related to my field of expertise and find them in conflict with the facts. Knowing what I know makes me wonder about all reviews of products I don't understand or know well. When reviewers like Consumer Reports give black marks for one year of a product I know well, and the next year of the identical product gets green, I know their sample is skewed and the data simply wrong. (Their sample is CU members who return the survey, that's it.) Then I can't even trust their opinion on a toaster. Audio magazines are no different. Opinions are like a**holes; everyone has one.

Years ago my favorite BMW 5-series got black marks for "electrical system". Investigation by BMW found that the failure was dirty electric-antenna masts not fully retracting and getting bent, or cars in car washes getting antennae bent because the radio was left on. CU categorized those "failures" as "electrical system" problems. The next model, BMW did away with mast antennae completely. The radio reception suffered but the electrical system ratings were back to "green" in Consumer Reports.

Why use Consumers Union to research cars ? There is Road & Track , Car & Driver , Top Gear etc,, and a number of publications focusing on a BMW's only.


Especially when reading reviews of high end cars. Consumers Union does an excellent job of reviewing items for the average consumer.
An example Consumers Union rated the AR2a as the best speaker in that era. Consumers Union did not rate high end speakers.

I have yet to see a review of a Ferrari or any exotic car in Consumers Reports. How many 10 or 12 cylinder cars has been reviewed in Consumers Report ?

[scott fitlin]

Why use Consumers Union to research cars ? There is Road & Track , Car & Driver , Top Gear etc,, and a number of publications focusing on a BMW's only.


Especially when reading reviews of high end cars. Consumers Union does an excellent job of reviewing items for the average consumer.
An example Consumers Union rated the AR2a as the best speaker in that era. Consumers Union did not rate high end speakers.

I have yet to see a review of a Ferrari or any exotic car in Consumers Reports. How many 10 or 12 cylinder cars has been reviewed in Consumers Report ?

Car and Driver AND Motor trend both rated the Infinity G35 as as good as the BMW 3 series, in handling, and acceleration. I went and test drove it, and the BMW 3, the Infinity was good, but was NO BMW!

[scott fitlin]

I have yet to see a review of a Ferrari or any exotic car in Consumers Reports. How many 10 or 12 cylinder cars has been reviewed in Consumers Report ?

There are publications that review cars like these. Consumer Report caters to the mass market buyer. Not the affluent, and exotic cars.

These days with the current prices of gas, and only going to go up in the future, many people no longer even look at 12 cylinder cars. TOO EXPENSIVE TO RUN. Also, once upon a time, a V12 was the only way to get HP that high, and smooth. Todays technology and advances allow auto makers to achieve extremely high output and torque, in an 8 cylinder engine, with better fuel economy, and even the government pressures auto makers to manufacture vehicles that are more inline with todays needs.

However, the cars with V12,s were always limited, and super expensive, NOT the norm, or the cars of average folks everywhere.

Umm, Wolf, wayyyyyy back, in an even higher quality time period than your beloved 1950,s, Cadillac was pursuing the 16 cylinder engine. They even had a production car with a 16cyl. It never took off though. Too expensive to manufacture, and buy. And even when gasoline, was 8 cents a gallon, it was just not an engine they could really put out in the market with any success.

The cars with V12 engines weren't mainstay in your day, and they still aren't!

Ferrari is a NICHE market automobile.

And, successful publications are successful BECAUSE they know who their readership base is and publish reviews and articles on products the readership is interested in and WILL BUY!

[Harvey Gerst]

Lemme see if I can create an events timeline for him:

I started working at JBL around 1957 or 58. The engineering department consisted at that time of Bill Burton and his technical assistant, Gus. Bart Locanthi was an outside consultant. We were in several buildings on Fletcher Drive.

We moved to Casitas Avenue in 1959 or 1960, as I recall. It was still Bill Burton and Gus, with Bart showing up occasionally during the first year at Casitas.

Bill Burton left JBL to start Transducer Inc. in 1960, and Ed May replaced him as head of R&D. We were in Casitas for at least 6 months or more before Ed joined JBL. So now, it was Ed, Gus and Bart (occasionally).

I believe it was 1961 or 1962 when George Augspurger joined JBL.

The original Hartsfields were made during our Fletcher Drive years. The new version prototype was also built and tested on Fletcher Drive shortly before we moved, so that would put it around 1959. Ed had nothing to do with the original "coffin-back" Hartsfield; it was all Bill Burton and Bart Locanthi.

The first prototype Paragon, accompanied by Col. Richard Ranger, was delivered to Casitas Avenue. George Augspurger was not yet working at JBL.

Let me say it again so I'm perfectly clear on this point: I was there; George wasn't. And this is not a slam against George; he's brilliant, and a close and dear friend. But, he wasn't there at the time this all went down.

Wolfshead, you have your opinions and later articles about that period; I have my memories of those actual events.

[wolfshead]

There are publications that review cars like these. Consumer Report caters to the mass market buyer. Not the affluent, and exotic cars.

These days with the current prices of gas, and only going to go up in the future, many people no longer even look at 12 cylinder cars. TOO EXPENSIVE TO RUN. Also, once upon a time, a V12 was the only way to get HP that high, and smooth. Todays technology and advances allow auto makers to achieve extremely high output and torque, in an 8 cylinder engine, with better fuel economy, and even the government pressures auto makers to manufacture vehicles that are more inline with todays needs.

However, the cars with V12,s were always limited, and super expensive, NOT the norm, or the cars of average folks everywhere.

Umm, Wolf, wayyyyyy back, in an even higher quality time period than your beloved 1950,s, Cadillac was pursuing the 16 cylinder engine. They even had a production car with a 16cyl. It never took off though. Too expensive to manufacture, and buy. And even when gasoline, was 8 cents a gallon, it was just not an engine they could really put out in the market with any success.

The cars with V12 engines weren't mainstay in your day, and they still aren't!

Ferrari is a NICHE market automobile.

And, successful publications are successful BECAUSE they know who their readership base is and publish reviews and articles on products the readership is interested in and WILL BUY!

You are not reading the car publications , power is in , BMW , Mercedes ,
Audi , and even Cadillac or featuring more powerful cars. Not to mention
Porsche Jaguar , Acura and Lexus.

The masses , as the saying goes " shepherds change , but sheep remain sheep ". JBL'S speakers were not designed for the masses until recently.
Cadillac has revisted the idea of building a 16 cylinder car. The Bentley you desire has a W-12 clyinder engine !

Most of the really outstanding cars are built outside of the U.S. where government pressure is very different as it applies to high performance
cars. Americans but them !

There are more 12 clyinder cars produced today than 10 years ago !
People today earn more money , they are more able to afford expensive foreign cars. In New York , drive around manhatten , or read the cars section of the New York Times.

[hjames]

You are not reading the car publications , power is in , BMW , Mercedes ,
Audi , and even Cadillac or featuring more powerful cars. Not to mention
Porsche Jaguar , Acura and Lexus.

The masses , as the saying goes " shepherds change , but sheep remain sheep ". JBL'S speakers were not designed for the masses until recently.
Cadillac has revisted the idea of building a 16 cylinder car. The Bentley you desire has a W-12 clyinder engine !

Most of the really outstanding cars are built outside of the U.S. where government pressure is very different as it applies to high performance
cars. Americans but them !

There are more 12 clyinder cars produced today than 10 years ago !
People today earn more money , they are more able to afford expensive foreign cars. In New York , drive around manhatten , or read the cars section of the New York Times.

You continue to confuse marketing drivel with reality ...talk to PEOPLE and see how many v12s are being purchased on the open market - and what you see in the high end parts of NYC is hardly typical - but no doubt you drank the kool aid deeply and can't see reality in the face of propaganda.
The point of the magazines is to SELL THINGS - they are not "impartial" they have been bought and sold, just another shiney display case for the would be buyer. They have an agenda, that's why they are always positive.

[SEAWOLF97]

There are more 12 clyinder cars produced today than 10 years ago .

Unless BMW has something new , the only V-12's that I know about were the 750 & 850 ...both electrical nightmares (the inside story said they had enough wiring to reach the moon) ....they do not hold their value well.
Also drove a Jag XJ-12 ...power, but the fuel gauge dropped as fast as the speedo rose... ..terrible resale there too.

funny how every thread wolf shead starts turns into the same thing ??

[wolfshead]

You continue to confuse marketing drivel with reality ...talk to PEOPLE and see how many v12s are being purchased on the open market - and what you see in the high end parts of NYC is hardly typical - but no doubt you drank the kool aid deeply and can't see reality in the face of propaganda.
The point of the magazines is to SELL THINGS - they are not "impartial" they have been bought and sold, just another shiney display case for the would be buyer. They have an agenda, that's why they are always positive.

The open market ? Where do you think V12's are sold ?
newspapers , car dealer lots and by private owners.

There are V12's in the St.Louis area. I am a member of a forum such as this where the members discuss and drive V12's.
Visit an European auto show ,many of the cars there are V12's
Most of the V12 car owners do not live in NY ! There are many there
NY is a very affluent city.

As for as magazines , one can buy a magazine on almost any subject.
There are car magazines that cater to high end cars. There are audio magazines that mostly list high end audio.

You offer excellent counterpoints.