wolfshead's Hartsfield

[lansingfan]

My morality is none of your business ! Lansing is the subject. Audio !

Maybe what you are saying is, there is no morality.

[Sam Cogley]

I'm fairly sure this thread needs to be read with a significant dose of caffeine and alcohol. I've had neither yet today.

[scott fitlin]

I'm fairly sure this thread needs to be read with a significant dose of caffeine and alcohol. I've had neither yet today.

If you say so. I'm having coffee right now,

[scott fitlin]

Scott, before you presume too much, I have never been introduced to Wolfshead, though I am looking forward to it in a couple weeks. I'm sure we will be good friends after we meet - common stereo interests and a fascination with vintage JBL speakers, tube gear, and vintage furniture aid the process rather well. Wolfshead also palled around in the same loose group of stereo confederates that one of my mentors did about the stereo shops in town.

At some point, if I make it up to WH's house, I'll stand our seven year old in front of one of his Hartsfields holding a dated St. Louis Post Disgrace paper, so you doubting Thomas folks can pick something else apart of his. Maybe I'll hang his Social Security card, school ID, and birth certificate around his neck so y'all know it's really him.

Before that time, I'll keep busy reading about the fights between the Crown 500 wpc SS fan club and the SET 45 amp crowd, using hi efficiency speakers, over in FightClub.

Knock yourself out!

[Harvey Gerst]

First of all, George Augspurger wasn't even there during the change over from Bill Hartstfield's original design to Bart Locanthi and Bill Burton's newer horn design. It took place on Fletcher Drive, not on Casitas. George didn't come to work for JBL until after we moved to Casitas.

Yes, one reason was to make it simpler to build, but I think the overriding reason was that the original Hartsfield had a terrible low end, and Bart felt that could be improved with a newer horn design.

It wasn't called "blond"; it was called "Prima Vera" and I think we did make a few in Gloss Black as special orders. I don't specifically remember any made in Walnut.

Finally you asked, "Was Harvey Gerst a major decision maker at Lansing?" At that time. no, but Bill and Bart did respect my hearing abilities and I did have some slight input during the testing of the prototype. I was later made Head of Quality Control because of my ability to hear stuff other people missed. Plus I was very anal about making sure that everything that went out was perfect.

I owned two Hartsfields with the 8" speaker horn extenders, made to fit a pair of Lowther speakers I installed. Later, I had a Metrtagon made with special baffles that held a Janzen Electrostatic and the matching Janzen woofers.

[Maron Horonzakz]

Harvy,,,Did you ever get a chance to hear the 8 inch plus adaptor in the Hartsfield... I did.

[Mr. Widget]

I owned two Hartsfields with the 8" speaker horn extenders, made to fit a pair of Lowther speakers I installed. Later, I had a Metrtagon made with special baffles that held a Janzen Electrostatic and the matching Janzen woofers.

Say it isn't so! Lowther and Janzen!!!!

Actually I think that is very cool... if you can't have an open mind to alternatives you stagnate. I have yet to hear a Lowther that I like, but perhaps back in those days their competition was also less accurate.



Wolf... you have some very nice looking Hartsfields.


Widget

[wolfshead]

First of all, George Augspurger wasn't even there during the change over from Bill Hartstfield's original design to Bart Locanthi and Bill Burton's newer horn design. It took place on Fletcher Drive, not on Casitas. George didn't come to work for JBL until after we moved to Casitas.

Yes, one reason was to make it simpler to build, but I think the overriding reason was that the original Hartsfield had a terrible low end, and Bart felt that could be improved with a newer horn design.

It wasn't called "blond"; it was called "Prima Vera" and I think we did make a few in Gloss Black as special orders. I don't specifically remember any made in Walnut.

Finally you asked, "Was Harvey Gerst a major decision maker at Lansing?" At that time. no, but Bill and Bart did respect my hearing abilities and I did have some slight input during the testing of the prototype. I was later made Head of Quality Control because of my ability to hear stuff other people missed. Plus I was very anal about making sure that everything that went out was perfect.

I owned two Hartsfields with the 8" speaker horn extenders, made to fit a pair of Lowther speakers I installed. Later, I had a Metrtagon made with special baffles that held a Janzen Electrostatic and the matching Janzen woofers.

I don't doubt your experience with JBL , but cost is a factor in any decision involving the production of any item. The question of decision
making is critical in any decision where cost is a factor, not just respect.

Several other publications was of the same opinion , Lansing changed the
location of the woofer and shorten the horn to reduce cost in production.
There were walnut veneered Hartsfields produced in 1963 and 1964.

There was a starter system for the Hartsfields , that system used a 8"
D208 speaker operating in full range. The speaker was mounted behind the Koustical Lens and used a duck to back load the driver into the bass horn. This was before the redesign of the Hartsfield.
This addition was never a marketing success and this option was dropped within two years.

[sheltiedave]

Hey now, that was a Hartsfield I have actually heard(the one with the 208 tack-on.)

[Harvey Gerst]

I don't doubt your experience with JBL , but cost is a factor in any decision involving the production of any item. The question of decision making is critical in any decision where cost is a factor, not just respect.

Several other publications was of the same opinion , Lansing changed the
location of the woofer and shorten the horn to reduce cost in production.
There were walnut veneered Hartsfields produced in 1963 and 1964.

There was a starter system for the Hartsfields , that system used a 8"
D208 speaker operating in full range. The speaker was mounted behind the Koustical Lens and used a duct to back load the driver into the bass horn. This was before the redesign of the Hartsfield.
This addition was never a marketing success and this option was dropped within two years.

It wasn't a duct; it was a continuation of the horn flare. And if you were there at the time, you'd know that improving the sound of the Hartsfield (before some people actually measured it) would have been Bill Thomas' primary consideration.

The fact that it was chosen as Life Magazine's "Dream System" actually scared us because we knew its faults. The original Bill Hartsfield design was convoluted at best, and pretty shitty below 90 Hz. The 375's frequency response dropped like a rock after 9 kHz. I think Bart and Bill saw improving the Hartsfield as a challenge. Adding Bill's 075 above 7 kHz helped out the top end considerably.

Almost all the Walnut Hartsfields would have been made at Casitas, not Fletcher Drive, and those would be the newer cabinet. I don't recall seeing any in Walnut with the original cabinet, but it is possible, I guess.

People today don't really appreciate how dedicated we were back then; it was an extended family, and we were all fanatics about quality.

As far as the Hartsfield was concerned, and knowing Bill Thomas as well as I did; it would never have been primarily about cutting costs on making the Hartsfield. The primary goal at JBL was always sonic quality - at least it was back then. And all those "other publications' opinions" you allude to; it's just that: their opinions, not facts. Talk to Johnny Edwards; he was there too.

And I'm sorry if this post sounds like I'm pissed off; well actually I am. JBL in the 50's and 60's was the most amazing company I've ever worked at. I ate dinner at Bill Thomas' house on N. Vermont and with Margaret and Bill in Santa Barbara many times, at Ed and Edna May's house, visited Johnny Edward's house in Glendale and went sailing with him to Catalina, and split two halves of a duplex with George Augspurger. You don't know what happened back then; I do.

[Harvey Gerst]

Say it isn't so! Lowther and Janzen!!!!

Actually I think that is very cool... if you can't have an open mind to alternatives you stagnate. I have yet to hear a Lowther that I like, but perhaps back in those days their competition was also less accurate.

Actually, the original small Lowther speaker was rather nice, and it sounded pretty good in the Hartsfield. It was certainly better than the D208 - and a lot more expensive at the time.

[wolfshead]

It wasn't a duct; it was a continuation of the horn flare. And if you were there at the time, you'd know that improving the sound of the Hartsfield (before some people actually measured it) would have been Bill Thomas' primary consideration.

The fact that it was chosen as Life Magazine's "Dream System" actually scared us because we knew its faults. The original Bill Hartsfield design was convoluted at best, and pretty shitty below 90 Hz. The 375's frequency response dropped like a rock after 9 kHz. I think Bart and Bill saw improving the Hartsfield as a challenge. Adding Bill's 075 above 7 kHz helped out the top end considerably.

Almost all the Walnut Hartsfields would have been made at Casitas, not Fletcher Drive, and those would be the newer cabinet. I don't recall seeing any in Walnut with the original cabinet, but it is possible, I guess.

People today don't really appreciate how dedicated we were back then; it was an extended family, and we were all fanatics about quality.

As far as the Hartsfield was concerned, and knowing Bill Thomas as well as I did; it would never have been primarily about cutting costs on making the Hartsfield. The primary goal at JBL was always sonic quality - at least it was back then. And all those "other publications' opinions" you allude to; it's just that: their opinions, not facts. Talk to Johnny Edwards; he was there too.

And I'm sorry if this post sounds like I'm pissed off; well actually I am. JBL in the 50's and 60's was the most amazing company I've ever worked at. I ate dinner at Bill Thomas' house on N. Vermont and with Margaret and Bill in Santa Barbara many times, at Ed and Edna May's house, visited Johnny Edward's house in Glendale and went sailing with him to Catalina, and split two halves of a duplex with George Augspurger. You don't know what happened back then; I do.

I don't question the fact that you worked for JBL and was an insider. There is a different varsion of the reasons JBL redesigned the Hartsfied from another person who worked there George Augspurger , who wrote several
papers on speakers. One of his articles " the importance of Speaker efficiency " written in 1963 and published by Electronic World was excellent.

There were others outside of JBL who also felt it was an economic decision not a quality decision.
The 1954 review of the Hartsfield in High Fidelity magazine made no mention of faults " IF I had to sum up my impressions in one sentence ,
something alone these lines would probably be as good as any it reveals
the splendor of the music."

On this subject we can agree to disagree.

[hjames]

You do know that the reviews in most magazines were swayed by the ad revenue from the firms advertising in the magazine, right?

This Wolfhead guy has gotten the word directly from insiders who were there,
yet he still feels his opinion and stuff he read in the audio gossip magazines is right.

On this subject we can agree to disagree.

No sir, the folks who were there KNOW the truth, and have told you the reasons.
You however, politely insist that they don't know what the truth is and continue to insists that you are the one who is right.
It is not polite to tell insiders that they are either misguided or lying, no matter how politely you do so ...
And yes, you did not use those words, but what else is one to think when you continue to say he is wrong ...

What we CAN agree on is that you are stubborn and insist on being wrong in the face of reality.

People, why is anyone continuing to talk to this ... uh, "gentleman".

Is he funny? Is he funny like a clown. Does he AMUSE you ...?

[BMWCCA]

Does he AMUSE you ...?

Well, yeah. And Wolfie's interaction with Harvey leaves no doubt as to the true nature of every "discussion" he's begun or "contributed" to here.

I'm amazed when I read reviews related to my field of expertise and find them in conflict with the facts. Knowing what I know makes me wonder about all reviews of products I don't understand or know well. When reviewers like Consumer Reports give black marks for one year of a product I know well, and the next year of the identical product gets green, I know their sample is skewed and the data simply wrong. (Their sample is CU members who return the survey, that's it.) Then I can't even trust their opinion on a toaster. Audio magazines are no different. Opinions are like a**holes; everyone has one.

Years ago my favorite BMW 5-series got black marks for "electrical system". Investigation by BMW found that the failure was dirty electric-antenna masts not fully retracting and getting bent, or cars in car washes getting antennae bent because the radio was left on. CU categorized those "failures" as "electrical system" problems. The next model, BMW did away with mast antennae completely. The radio reception suffered but the electrical system ratings were back to "green" in Consumer Reports.

[wolfshead]

You do know that the reviews in most magazines were swayed by the ad revenue from the firms advertising in the magazine, right?

This Wolfhead guy has gotten the word directly from insiders who were there,
yet he still feels his opinion and stuff he read in the audio gossip magazines is right.



No sir, the folks who were there KNOW the truth, and have told you the reasons.
You however, politely insist that they don't know what the truth is and continue to insists that you are the one who is right.
It is not polite to tell insiders that they are either misguided or lying, no matter how politely you do so ...
And yes, you did not use those words, but what else is one to think when you continue to say he is wrong ...

What we CAN agree on is that you are stubborn and insist on being wrong in the face of reality.

People, why is anyone continuing to talk to this ... uh, "gentleman".

Is he funny? Is he funny like a clown. Does he AMUSE you ...?

Read the post , the information I have is from an insider, George Augspurger. Both worked for JBL. Both were insiders . Augspurger's
article differed with Gerst as to why the Hartsfield was redesigned.

I never posted that either person was right or wrong. Two different points of view from two well respected JBL insiders.
That is what a forum is, a discussion posing different positions on an issue or subject.