Why is it that pre 1970 speakers so prized today ?

[wolfshead]

I've found that price comparisons via inflation calculators, for TOTL items reflect a big increase in discretionary money in the upper levels of the economy. But what's the news in that? That the trend of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer has been going on for decades has been no secret. You can't blame JBL or any other company for targeting that market.

The asking price for a JBL 1500Al woofer (used in the K2 S9900) today is $1850, $261 in 1962 dollars. JBL'S most expensive woofer at that time was less than half that, but it's really not a legitimate comparison because the 1500Al is very much more complex, was created out of a tremendous investment of engineering, and is difficult to manufacture, but most important, is an order of magnitude better! It is a new kind of product intended for a new market with its own demands.

If you compare products at various competitive, consumer-level price points, I think you will find that present products are in keeping with inflation calculators or are a little cheaper.

I Would disagree with you as for as values vs prices. A Rolex watch today
is much more over priced than one available 40 years ago. $450.00 vs $6500. In 1962 JBL's most expensive woofer the 150-4C sold for $114.00

There actually is more discretionary income today especially with a larger middleclass. There is no blame , it is just that companies such as JBL were
sold and the new owners were not that interested in audio but in the bottom line.
I remember talking to Saul Marantz at one of his visits to St.Louis , The new Marantz 10B was being presented. Mr. Marantz said it cost more to
manufacture the 10B than what we were paying for it.

The list of pioneers in audio of those that sold out or closed because of cheap transistor and the change in musical taste as well as lower expectations is endless. Marantz , Jenson , Electro Voice , Ampex, Crown ,
Fisher , Scott, Bogen , Pilot , Garrad , Empire , Rek-O Kut etc,etc.

Frank Sinatra said in the musical " That's Entertainment " You can wait around and hope but you will never see that again "

[speakerdave]

I don't see what relevance Rolex watches have to any discussion here. They are nothing but power jewelry, and you can get a time piece just as accurate for $25.

In audio there are improvements in performance at the higher price points. Yes, there is some conspicuous consumption going on as well, but there are definite tiers of music reproduction quality.

I'm having difficulty finding the focus of your posts.

I also think you missed the main point of mine that you quoted.

I Would disagree with you as for as values vs prices. A Rolex watch today
is much more over priced than one available 40 years ago. $450.00 vs $6500. In 1962 JBL's most expensive woofer the 150-4C sold for $114.00

There actually is more discretionary income today especially with a larger middleclass. There is no blame , it is just that companies such as JBL were
sold and the new owners were not that interested in audio but in the bottom line.
I remember talking to Saul Marantz at one of his visits to St.Louis , The new Marantz 10B was being presented. Mr. Marantz said it cost more to
manufacture the 10B than what we were paying for it.

The list of pioneers in audio of those that sold out or closed because of cheap transistor and the change in musical taste as well as lower expectations is endless. Marantz , Jenson , Electro Voice , Ampex, Crown ,
Fisher , Scott, Bogen , Pilot , Garrad , Empire , Rek-O Kut etc,etc.

Frank Sinatra said in the musical " That's Entertainment " You can wait around and hope but you will never see that again "

[scott fitlin]

I Would disagree with you as for as values vs prices. A Rolex watch today
is much more over priced than one available 40 years ago. $450.00 vs $6500. In 1962 JBL's most expensive woofer the 150-4C sold for $114.00

There actually is more discretionary income today especially with a larger middleclass. There is no blame , it is just that companies such as JBL were
sold and the new owners were not that interested in audio but in the bottom line.
I remember talking to Saul Marantz at one of his visits to St.Louis , The new Marantz 10B was being presented. Mr. Marantz said it cost more to
manufacture the 10B than what we were paying for it.

The list of pioneers in audio of those that sold out or closed because of cheap transistor and the change in musical taste as well as lower expectations is endless. Marantz , Jenson , Electro Voice , Ampex, Crown ,
Fisher , Scott, Bogen , Pilot , Garrad , Empire , Rek-O Kut etc,etc.

Frank Sinatra said in the musical " That's Entertainment " You can wait around and hope but you will never see that again "

And you waited from 1962, until NOW to get this off your chest?

I couldn't live that way my own self, but, hey, to each their own!

[wolfshead]

I don't see what relevance Rolex watches have to any discussion here. They are nothing but power jewelry, and you can get a time piece just as accurate for $25.

In audio there are improvements in performance at the higher price points. Yes, there is some conspicuous consumption going on as well, but there are definite tiers of music reproduction quality as well.

I'm having difficulty finding the focus of your posts.

I also think you missed the main point of mine that you quoted.

A boom box reproduces music and a cheap audio system purchased at Walmart does the same.
One does not buy a Rolex to keep time , it is bought to make a statement
Oh I might add it will most likey last for many years.

Generally those that purchase high end audio equipment also may purchase high end watches , cars etc.
Those same tiers exist in other consumer items.

[scott fitlin]

A boom box reproduces music and a cheap audio system purchased at Walmart does the same.

Who here purchased their system at Walmart, K-Mart, or any other CHEEP-MART?

Exactly what are you trying to say to us?

[speakerdave]

I think I know what he's saying.

But I definitely know what he's hearing of what anybody else has to say.

Just as all roads lead to Rome, all subjects lead to a collection of classic audio gear, which if you've read the other thread, is indeed cool.

But a monomania isn't.

Point taken, dude, but I'm outta here.

[BMWCCA]

The list of pioneers in audio of those that sold out or closed because of cheap transistor and the change in musical taste as well as lower expectations is endless. Marantz , Jenson , Electro Voice , Ampex, Crown ...

Has anyone told Crown that they are closed? It might come as a rude shock to the guys and gals in Elkhart, Indiana.

[scott fitlin]

Has anyone told Crown that they are closed? It might come as a rude shock to the guys and gals in Elkhart, Indiana.

Not only that, but no one told Bass Woofers everywhere hooked up to a Crown, that kick only the way a Crown can make them kick, that they are transistor amplifiers!

It is a dayum shame I say!

[o0OBillO0o]

The advent of the transistor enable U.S. manufactures to reduce cost in amplification. High power -low cost. The move from valves to transistors had little to do with sonic improvement. It was as they say all about money.

Most speaker design in the United States since 1970 has been built around more exotic driver materials and inexpensive transistors. Thus the vast majority of speakers on the market are multi-driver affairs with complex power eating crossovers. Too many modern speakers are Hifi-ish and
artifical .

The JBL line from the Paragon to the much desired Hartsfields rarely service. Were among the best sounding loudspeakers produced.
My AR'S are an early example of the move away from large music producing speakers to small one's with very little high end but an exceptable low end.

Today audio is only a supporter to video. The iPOD has replaced the CD.
Another move that makes economic sense , but only adds to the exceptability of low quality sound.

Music has paid a major part in the poor quality of today's music, pop music
for example rarely uses an orchestra. The center of most homes today is the entertainment center with the focus on video. The speakers and amplification takes a back seat.

We may wait around and hope but the days of the great music producing systems made in America is over , as are the great movies from Hollywood.

This post got me to register, so I'll bite.

Vintage JBL are like muscle cars, not Rolex watches. Every single muscle car that is available today from their era offer memories, style and gobbs of performance.

That is what this forum is all about, JBL's heritage. Moreover, JBL doesn't run it's own, as far as I know, brand forum - like Klipsch does- Therefore this has become more a less a pseudo JBL/Harman international product forum where consumers can celebrate there audio purchases from said company.

Loudspeaker designs haven't fundamentally changed since there birth. ( Piston, magnet, current..) Same for cars, motor, 4 wheels, seats, etc. But both have become very refined.

Today's JBL speakers are cutting edge, just as any other well established speaker company. Project Everest are top-shelf Luxury speakers. But most would be satisfied with ES100 Towers and even L890's got kudo's from Stereophile. Likewise, and to continue the car bit, You can get a high performing car for much less than a Porsche or Ferrari..

Great music is still available. iPods are not ruining anything, who said you had to compress your music? My iPod is full of Apple Lossless Audio. Don't give into consumerism and understand that now everyone ,even the have nots, are now just getting the concept of Hi-Fi ( now called HD or high definition)

My recommendation, if you want good inexpensive speakers, AND you want to stick with JBL, get their LSR 2300 series Stereo pair, 2 subwoofers and MCS1 controller If that is too small and not enough, then the MCS1 Controller and a pair of PRX535

Lastly, if your a Metal fan get Metallica's S&M, plenty of rock and orchestra.. plenty more out there..

Do not fear my friend.

[Allanvh5150]

There are many, many dimensions to the problem, but in the end, the fact is people lack discernment, and they spend too much money on crap.

Not really. People that do not care about sound are pretty much always going to have "crap gear". People that dont care for cars are not going to have a garage full of Ferrari's and people that wear digital watches are not going to go out and buy a Rolex that will last them a lifetime and endure any extreme they can deal to it. And most of the time, people buy crap because that is all they can afford.

[o0OBillO0o]

Not really. People that do not care about sound are pretty much always going to have "crap gear". People that dont care for cars are not going to have a garage full of Ferrari's and people that wear digital watches are not going to go out and buy a Rolex that will last them a lifetime and endure any extreme they can deal to it. And most of the time, people buy crap because that is all they can afford.

Maybe speaker dave should check out JBL's "how to assess Speakers" guide/ course that somewhere out there..

"crap" gear is cheap to make and big business to sell. How many designs from an engineering and business standpoint is based on costing the most to produce? not many. Bang for the buck and lowest bidder win most of the time.

Many Designs, from the days of past, ostensibly are devoid from mass marketing "crap" and contain the best design elements ( construction/quality) that demanding Music fans enjoy for much less than new loudspeakers today.

My third recommendation is to find a set of used Klipsch Lascala's for ~$800 and see what you think..

[BMWCCA]

My third recommendation is to find a set of used Klipsch Lascala's for ~$800 and see what you think..

Been there, done that. Good friend bought a pair for just that amount. He even bought the much-discussed Adcom GFA-555 amp to power them. We all decided my $200 L7s and $100 Crown PS400 blew PWK's stuff into the weeds.

We won't even talk about how they compare to the 4345s, well, because the suggestion of the La Scalas was made at a given price point (even if a NEW pair of La Scala II's will set you back close to $6,000). Funny thing is this guy lived right next door to the house down the street where I got my L7s, before he bought the LaScalas, but he passed on the JBLs (when the asking price was $400) because he remembered them as "Circuit City" JBLs.

Nothing wrong with pre-'70s JBLs. I own a pair. Though most here would probably say JBL's best were made in the '70s and after. Doesn't make pre-70's stuff desirable but you have to separate "collectibility" from "utility". A Paragon is way cool to look at, to touch and feel, and to own and show off. An L300 does all that and sounds better. A 4333 provides the sound without the glitz and bling.

Many people collect Edsels, too, yet no one would call them fun to drive and certainly not their first-choice for a daily commute. A Rolex has similar anachronistic attractions and for a couple hundred-dollars in maintenance each year you can even make them come close to keeping time. But all my bosses with their gold GMT-Masters were always asking me to check my $300 Victorinox Swiss Army watch for the correct time. (I tried Timex and Seiko but they irritated my skin or corroded away.) I'd love to someday be able to say I own a Paragon and show it off, proudly, to my friends. I also love my D130/075/N2400 JBL 030 and will always keep them for their sentimental value AND their sound quality. But I've now moved into the '80s and '90s with my JBL collection that I actually listen to.

It's really nothing to argue about, they're all JBLs. It's not like we're here to talk Klipsch!

[Maron Horonzakz]

Yeah ???/ well i also own a Klipschorn,,,BUT with JBL drivers,, Take that Bullwinkle..

[BMWCCA]

Yeah ???/ well i also own a Klipschorn,,,BUT with JBL drivers,, Take that Bullwinkle..

Yeah, I own a big plywood box with a 15" JBL in it, too. Does that make us buds?

[4313B]

Has anyone told Crown that they are closed? It might come as a rude shock to the guys and gals in Elkhart, Indiana.

Crown is just a prototyping company now. All manufacturing was finally killed as of the second half of last year. This is not the Crown that you are thinking of, although they sure would like you to keep thinking they are. Harman really doesn't want anyone to know that they've killed off all U.S. Manufacturing across all their brands. JBL goes bye bye at the end of June this year. They don't want anyone to know that either so carry on like nothing ever happened. Evidently alot of people don't see any problem with it. Except all the folks who helped build the companies and then lost their jobs...

The Corporation I work for, which dwarfs Harman, is doing away with all U.S. manufacturing this year too. I think it's funny. I'm watching the dismantling of our country with piqued interest. It's a fantastic case study in purposeful social decline. Twenty five percent of the population of the city I live in is below the poverty line and it's growing daily.

As for the interest in old JBL's. It's just people being sentimental and trying to cocoon themselves into a time they remember as being "good". Pure nostalgia. Most of that old gear sounds... well... old. Nothing wrong with that though if it's what you like. The Paragon still does what it was always supposed to do, fill a room with sound...