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Thread: Speaker Cable...quick recommendations

  1. #31
    Punch
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    It has been done...

    You have to read through a few million posts but I thought their dedication impressive and the outcome was rather interesting.


    Widget
    Great input...thanks Mr. Widget

  2. #32
    Senior Member Eaulive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget View Post
    It has been done...

    You have to read through a few million posts but I thought their dedication impressive and the outcome was rather interesting.


    Widget
    Funny, here are the highlights;

    Post # 217
    Any sign of the results? Yes? No?

    In the meantime, here are some opinions on cable A (most expensive):

    "A was that much leaner, that it took a while to distinguish between A&C."

    "Worst sounding cable = A. Everything sounded dull and more recessed with cable A. Most of the dynamism and rhythm had disappeared. Awful sound -> like listening with cotton wool in my ears. I christened this cable “the strangler"

    "A was best(by a tiny bit...had to listen hard and won't be shelling out for a replacement but V interesting"

    "The "best sounding cable" was A"

    "BTW, what I dislked about the "worst" cable (which I thought was A - the commercial audiophile) was that it was less open, more precussive and brighter. "
    And cable C (the kettle lead)

    "slightly veiled sound, bloated bass, slow timing, no air and space (restricted treble), overall balance was bass heavy."

    "Worst cable: C - sounded a bit flat, less engaging, lacked texture compared to A and B"

    "Best sounding cable = C. Retained the PR&T of my front-end. Good treble extension. Bass extension “just right”, not too “woolly”/bloomy. Overall I felt “aaahh, that’s my naim back again”

    "The "worst sounding cable" was C"


    "C (the undisclosed kettle) was better that D (the disclosed kettle) because it was "open (rather than tight), natural (more laid back than forward), darker (rather than bright)".

    "what surprised me most is I reckon I thought the kettle lead was the best out of this group, and worth a hundred and fifty pound, (compared to the worst, which I wrongly assumed to be the kettle lead)"
    And the final results post #225
    ---------------------------------snipped----------------------
    In short
    18 answers to the question The cable most like cable “D” was... 4 answered A , 6 answered B, 8 answered C

    C=D, the result is p > 0.22, the test failed
    And the next:
    So in laymans terms. More people prefferred the kettle lead to the Audiophile lead, however that result could occur randomly 1 in 10 times.
    There are a gazillion posts but yes, the test failed, the differences heard are uncorrelated, they can mean anything, hence there's no difference.

  3. #33
    Senior Member BMWCCA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eaulive View Post
    There are a gazillion posts but yes, the test failed, the differences heard are uncorrelated, they can mean anything, hence there's no difference.
    I don't consider that a failure. It proves, somewhat, the people can "hear" a difference but that they don't agree on the differences. Which means there really aren't differences beyond what we must assume are psychological rather than physical. That is a valid finding.

    Thanks for the summary. I looked at the site, went to the last page, backed up a few, and found the typical rants hard to read. The sample looked tiny but how it blew away opinions as prejudices was interesting. Glad I didn't have to read it!

    I wasn't even interested enough to try to figure out what a "kettle lead" was from that exchange. I assumed it was some sort of Queen's English for appliance cord. Thanks, again, to Wikipedia:

    ". . . as you have no doubt noticed, no one told the 4345 that it can't work correctly so it does anyway."—Greg Timbers

  4. #34
    Senior Member Eaulive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMWCCA View Post
    I don't consider that a failure. It proves, somewhat, the people can "hear" a difference but that they don't agree on the differences. Which means there really aren't differences beyond what we must assume are psychological rather than physical. That is a valid finding.
    Exactly.
    Basically there were two "kettle leads" one identified and one hidden. The main objective was to find who will associate the two cables D and C. 8 out of 18 did the association so it's not enough to ensure validity that's why they say the test failed.

    Basically, people heard differences, but they can not be objectively correlated. Mood, placebo effect, too much coffee / alcool the night before

    Bottom line, if a cable makes you feel good, then enjoy your happiness

    I enjoy the sound of my system, last night I ran a sweep and the results were atrocious, I won't dare post the results here, but hey, it sounds good to me

  5. #35
    Senior Member jcrobso's Avatar
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    If you have time do some reading at audioholics.

    http://store.audioholics.com/page/av_university#topic4

    They have done a lot of cable testing, with very interesting results.

    3 years ago over at C-net forums we were discussing cables and someone asked about a $2000 power cord.
    My reply was that you are going to plug a $2000 power cord into $0.49 duplex outlet wired to the cheapest 14ga wire that the contractor could get AND some how the $2000 power cord will work magic and make your amp sound 2000 times better.

    There are people that took PT Barnum to heart and take unsuspecting people to the cleaners with all sorts of scams. Exotic cables are one of the scams.

  6. #36
    Senior Member BMWCCA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcrobso View Post
    3 years ago over at C-net forums...
    Speaking of C-net, scams, PT Barnum, etc, how 'bout our own local-boy-makes-good story on CNet's founder? Son of old friends:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halsey_Minor

    and the local take: http://www.readthehook.com/blog/inde...r-foreclosure/
    ". . . as you have no doubt noticed, no one told the 4345 that it can't work correctly so it does anyway."—Greg Timbers

  7. #37
    Senior Member Eaulive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcrobso View Post
    http://store.audioholics.com/page/av_university#topic4

    They have done a lot of cable testing, with very interesting results.

    3 years ago over at C-net forums we were discussing cables and someone asked about a $2000 power cord.
    My reply was that you are going to plug a $2000 power cord into $0.49 duplex outlet wired to the cheapest 14ga wire that the contractor could get AND some how the $2000 power cord will work magic and make your amp sound 2000 times better.

    There are people that took PT Barnum to heart and take unsuspecting people to the cleaners with all sorts of scams. Exotic cables are one of the scams.
    You can apply the same things to speakers. Why a humongous, car battery sized cable would make a difference when the interconnects in your speaker enclosures are made of stock #18 wire and crossovers are thin layers of copper on PC boards.
    So are the wires and connections in your amplifier, and the leads of the power transistors

    That being said, I believe speaker wires could make a tiny difference, but power cables? Gimme a break.
    Unless of course you're trying to supply your power hungry class A amplifier with 50' of chinese white indoor extensions.

  8. #38
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    Bottom line, if a cable makes you feel good, then enjoy your happiness
    Will do!
    .
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  9. #39
    Senior Member Eaulive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4313B View Post
    Will do!
    .
    You could get chastised and banned from an audiofool forum with a picture like this

  10. #40
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    Exactly!

    You can apply the same things to speakers. Why a humongous, car battery sized cable would make a difference when the interconnects in your speaker enclosures are made of stock #18 wire and crossovers are thin layers of copper on PC boards.
    So are the wires and connections in your amplifier, and the leads of the power transistors
    Consider these wires: http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/aud...eakercable.php

    Best $100.00 wires around. I use the long run version, and I'm going to use it to rewire my 4412s.

    Buy a set of car battery wires from Audio Advisor, and a set of these, try 'em out head to head against what your using now, and send one or both sets back if you can't hear a difference.

    If your on a tight budget, try using 18 gauge bell wire[solid core] from an electrical supply co. It sounds very natural.

  11. #41
    Senior Member Eaulive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rusty jefferson View Post
    Consider these wires: http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/aud...eakercable.php

    Best $100.00 wires around. I use the long run version, and I'm going to use it to rewire my 4412s.

    Buy a set of car battery wires from Audio Advisor, and a set of these, try 'em out head to head against what your using now, and send one or both sets back if you can't hear a difference.

    If your on a tight budget, try using 18 gauge bell wire[solid core] from an electrical supply co. It sounds very natural.
    I won't hear the difference, I know my ears
    So far I stick with my 2/16 or 2/14 SOW cord

  12. #42
    Senior Member herki the cat's Avatar
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    Regarding Speaker Cables

    Quote Originally Posted by kingpin11 View Post
    Well, I hope I don't get my knuckles wrapped for this, but I use Canare 4S11 cable. It has 4 conductors which you can use for bi-wiring or bi-amping, or you can just twist pairs together for a heavier cable which is what I do. I like it. It's 3/8" thick total with the jacket is very flexible and I kinda like the simple look.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingpin11 View Post
    the Mfg'er of Canare 4S11 cable,Via Link < http://bluejeanscable.com/store/speaker/index.htm >states:

    "The biggest issue in speaker cables, from the point of view of sound quality, is simply conductivity; lower cable resistance is important in realizing available "amplifier damping factor, and flat frequency response. While one can spend thousands of dollars on exotic speaker cable, in the end analysis, it's the sheer conductivity of the cable, & little else matters. "
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well__Speaker cables are required to preserve excellent "Group Delay", which simply stated means that "every signal of each different frequency in the "complex program spectrum" has to arrive at the speaker jointly at the same time in order to recreate the program spectrum collected by the microphone in the recording acoustic
    environment, or venue, if you please.

    What really happens in any simple conductor is that "all signals of decending frequenciy from 20,000 Hz down, do suffer a decrease in velocity in the conductor at a rate inversely proportional to frequency due to the fact, that as frequency decreases,the signal magnetic-field crowds toward the center of the conductor.

    This is not the common "skin effect" which is solved by using litz wire mostly at RF. The solution?__ Use a hollow Pipe? Not quite ! __ Early speaker cables by Pope Inc., were constructed like a flexible copper sock woven around a 3/8" diameter hollow, long plastic tube with very limited results down to 500 or 600 Hz right where the critical Mid Bass spectrum begins.

    Believe it or not, certain megabuck speaker cables do correct this problem. Mr. Bruce Brisson, CEO of MIT Inc "Constant Velocity" fame, recognized the Bell Telephone Laboratories Work with group delay, and began designing Simple Cables at Monstor Inc, and he now has several magnificient patents that describe the whole thing. I invite you to "google" for these patents, & also down load Bruce Brisson's numerous "white Papers" on the subject..

    These cables are pricey, they will not cure problems with poor electronics in your system: but if your electronics are clean , high quality, you will realize improvements in quality comparable to replacing some other major expensive component in your system. This includes removing convential noisey solid state power supply rectifiers from all your system components & replacing them with Soft Recovery Rectifiers to eliminate rectifier stored energy that rings severely 120 times/second each time dc current stops flowing to the power supply filter capacitors. There is no other way to clean up a ringing power supply except with vacuum tube rectifiers.

    Power cords__Why is the last 6 feet of AC power conduit so important when it is fed by 30 to 50 feet of house wirig? Your system components gossip to each other, not only from noisy solid state power supplys, but also all the Digital Trash, not to mention the AC power company contamination. A good deal of this noise is common mode which many power cord Mfg'rs clean up with elegant toroide cores and substantial multiple braided powercord shielding.

    A well designed power cord will provide a substantial improvment in your system. MIT Inc. has a very effective power-conditioner package on thier excellent power cord designed by Dick Marsh, which provides a shunt-clamping "five Ohm Resistor Function" in a continuous band from 20,000 Hz down to almost 60 Hz.

    You should seek a dealer that will demonstrate to you the difference in junk cables & excellent cables in a well organized demo system. Also a good dealer will make availeable to you "no cost" loan demo cables to try at home. I have been there.

    The history on Group delay__ Bell Labs installed the first Transatlantic Telegraph Cable many decades ago resulting in a fabulous surprise. They found that it took a significant amount of time to send a telegraphic "Dot" & "Dash" but the massive "group delay distortion" in this cable distorted the code-pulse signatures so severely that the relatively simple "Dash" spectrum arrived ahead of the messed-up "Dot" spectrum. It was so bad that it took 4 hours to send a simple message so they could hold the key doen for several minites for each dot & dash.

    The fix was very simple__they needed distributed inductance on the full length of this transatlantic cable to slow down the higher frequency spectrum__They accomplished this by wrapping "Mu Metal" high-permubility wire around the insulated copper conductor.Transmission speed came up to 50 words per minite.

    The required bandwidth in this telegraph system is not comparable to the 20,000 Hz audio sound spectrum For example, 300 to 3000 Hz is very adequate for Land Telephone Communications. If you look up on telephone company poles at one mile intervals with a big iron bucket , that bucket is full of 10 millihenry coils used in series with each subscribers land line to provide distrubted inductance.

    This group delay thing was described by a Dr. Heavy Side around 1845 in terms of human speech.This scientist 's name was adopted for our modern "HF Radio transmission signal propogation" which follows the earth's curvature.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    cheers herki the cat
    Last edited by boputnam; 12-19-2009 at 12:33 PM. Reason: to add a few words

  13. #43
    Senior Member stephane RAME's Avatar
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  14. #44
    Punch
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    So, do you think the White Lightning DIY is worth the trouble (since I cannot find the Multi-Stage banana clips for a decent price) or should I just go with the:

    http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/aud...eakercable.php

    Or the Blue Jean

    Or ?????

    I just wanted to keep a pair below $100...

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punch View Post
    So, do you think the White Lightning DIY is worth the trouble (since I cannot find the Multi-Stage banana clips for a decent price) or should I just go with the:

    http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/aud...eakercable.php

    Or the Blue Jean

    Or ?????

    I just wanted to keep a pair below $100...
    I'd do the WLM power cord speaker cables ...
    a 40' 3-wire extension cord is $8 - cut it to whatever length you need (I did a pair of 20' cables) ...
    1 dual banana jack connector at each end - 4 total, that's like $8 for the connectors
    (plus shipping from Markertek - I bought extra connectors just to have them)
    but 2 speaker cables and 4 connectors is under $25 - certainly cheap enough to try!
    2ch: WiiM Pro; Topping E30 II DAC; Oppo, Acurus RL-11, Acurus A200, JBL Dynamics Project - Offline: L212-TwinStack, VonSchweikert VR-4
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