Which Components Should I Use?

[Wonderboy]

Hi Guys,

I have been accumulating some JBL components over the years to maybe one day build a JBL (the best!) speaker system. I have done a bit of testing and think I have the correct combination but I do not have the Knowledge or experience with these components and speaker building as some of you guys do. I figured before I go ahead with my project I would list what components I have for you guys to see and see if you agree or not with what I plan on doing. I will list number of components and their model number,here goes:
Drivers:

2-2404H (ferrite? the newer magnet design)
3-2405 16 ohm (J?) Alnico
1-2405H ferrite (need diaphragm)

1-2426J
1-2425H
4-2425J (two of them have a 2327 attached)
2-2470 16 ohm Alnico (with 183-309's attached)
1-2445J (need diaphragm)
2-2482 16 ohm Alnico (with phenolic diaphragms)

2-2118J
2-2012H

2-2226J
2-2225H

Horns:
1-2370
5-2370A
2-2386
2-2380A
1-2397 (with 2328 attached)
1-2309
1-231? last number is missing Accoustic Lens (is big and attached to 2309)

Crossovers:
4-3110A

Miss.
1-Kitchen Sink (wave guide)

The components I have decided to use per side (well up to this point) is:
1-2405
1-2425 with 2370A
1-2012
1-2226

These speakers will be used with a domestic home theater receiver, these speakers will be the front left and right. I was thinking (if at all possbile) to split the signal coming out of the receiver (for eg. to the left speaker), take one side of the split signal and with resistors bring it down to line level, plug it into a Peavey IA 10/4 Interface Amplifier (I am using one now for my subs) then into an electronic Xover then into a power amp to power the 2226's. The other side of the split signal will power the other three components. I am reading up on how to make Xovers, I have made some simple ones in the past no more than second order, I'm new to this and my knowledge of electronics is not that great. I have the 3110A's but they cross over at 800Hz so I figured I could not use them?

I also plan on building a center channel using the 2397 with either the 2445 (with new diaphragm, alum, titanuim or other?) or maybe a 2482 with the phenolic, I hear they were designed for voice or midrange and there is a lot of that content in a HT center channel? Along with the horn maybe the 2118s with a 2405?

So there you have it, do you think I am on the right track?

Kevin.

[SMKSoundPro]

Wow! That's quite a list.

If you are going for a 4-way:

2235
2012
2425/2370a
2405

Jbl did it, and it works. Others may question the choice of 2012.

Or if 3-way:

2235
3110a xover
2425/2370a
3106 xover
2405

Looks like an L300, doesn't it.

Or if 2-way:

1-2235
1-2425/ 2370a
1-3110a xover

Or if high output Rock and Roll:

2- 2226
1- 3110a xover
1- 2445/ 2309 horn w/2310 serpentine lense
1- 3106 xover
1- 2405 for sizzle.

In other words:

You have many different parts. Make a plan for the L & R main speakers; a plan for the center channel; and if you're doing a single or double sub...then do it.

Sell off the other parts and never look back!

Many DIY guys are doing the same thing and always looking for parts. Get what you need and sell the other stuff to the other DIY guys.

And above all...

Keep it simple!!!


Scotty.

[SMKSoundPro]

Hi Guys,
Horns:
1-2370
5-2370A
2-2386
2-2380A
1-2397 (with 2328 attached)
1-2309
1-2310 last number is missing Accoustic Lens (is big and attached to 2309)

Kevin.

see correction

[Wonderboy]

Thanks for the input Scotty! I am trying to keep it simple, when I first came on this forum with my crazy ideas (Drew Daniels type of system) I was full of piss and vinegar to make this super powerful, blow you away system (one of my buddies is nuts over heavy rock bands from the 80's so I guess I wanted to impress him), but after doing some testing of the drivers together, I realized that "less is more" (got that from a man of experience on this forum). So I down sized my vision to reality and what really works. That's a good plan to sell what I don't use but I am a bit of a pack rat and figure somewhere down the line I might want to build another speaker or two so I will most likely hang onto them. (pass them onto my grand kids,ha!)

The 2235 you mention, I guess with it's number it came out after the 2226? What model was the four way system that JBL came out with that is similar to my design? Was it the 4344 monitor?

Kevin.

P.S. Thanks for filling in the last digit of the lens.

[johnaec]

The components I have decided to use per side (well up to this point) is:
1-2405
1-2425 with 2370A
1-2012
1-2226

That combination of drivers looks OK, but you may have problems getting passive crossovers lined up easily. What I'd do is use a passive only for the VHF 2405, around 7K or 8K, and use an active 3-way crossover for the rest, each range with its own amp. Of course, you'll need some sort of EQ with that, looking at the different response characteristics of the different drivers. But I think you could get it sounding fairly good, and capable of prodigious, (sp?), output if desired.

John

[Wonderboy]

Thanks for the input Johnaec. I kind of really wanted to avoid active filtering except for the mid-bass (2226's). Previously I designed another system using (God forbid) vintage Tannoy driver's along with a mix of planar mids and tweeters using an all active crossover system and I had nothing but trouble, ground noise, hum, buzz etc. I had to scrap the whole thing. I also don't have the cash for more amps, I have the active crossovers though, from that same system. Maybe later I could give it a try, from all I have read, active is the way to go! As far as super high sp levels, I myself am getting to old for that and would like to keep my hearing, when my buddy comes over, I have these cool little foam ear plugs I roll up and insert them into my ears, he does not even see them.

Thanks again.

Kevin.

[Robh3606]

Hello Kevin

The driver components in a 4344 are a 2235/2122/2425 on a 2307/2405.
One advantage is we have equivalent passive networks, thanks to 4313, for that driver combo. If you want to go passive you are going to have to work out the networks for whatever combo you decide on. Active will work but you are going to need an EQ to help unless you go with a digital speaker management system.

If you want sub 40Hz bass in your mains to use them as stand alone stereo music speakers a 2235 would be a better woofer. If you are going to use a sub for them you might want to use a 12" like a 2206 and forget the lower midrange driver.

For HT L/R are not as important as the center. For stereo obviously the mains really count. How are you going to be using this system most??

Rob

[Wonderboy]

Hi Rob, thanks for the reply. I think I will have to attempt to work out a passive crossover network, at least give it a try. I do have a Behringer DSP unit, had it for years not even opened yet! Thing is, with a domestic system it is RCA jacks and the pro stuff is XLR so it's a real pain. I had a couple JBL 12" mid-woofers and ended up giving them to my "buddy" along with a couple 2370A's but I kept the JBL 2425's for myself and installed a couple of Eminence drivers instead, he was happy with the sound he got.

This system will be 99.9% home theater, so the center channel rules. The reason I really almost have to use the 2012's is that these are the only units I bought brand new and paid FULL price for, two for $700.00, all the rest of the drivers and horns I got on ebay or cheap from guys I know. Did you see my other question on which driver to use on a HT center channel?

Thanks Rob,

Kevin.

[Robh3606]

Hello Kevin

You know the bottom line is you want something you will be happy with. 4 ways are a PITA to get right. It seems you have tried DIY with Tannoys and it didn't work out. It is always easier to start with a known system than to start cold with a driver set with no baseline. With the driver combo's you have available there are plenty that can work as other have pointed out. I would stick to known combinations first and work from there if you feel the need.

For my center I use a cloned Urei 811C monitor. To me the vocals are paramount and a time aligned coax driver works, suites my needs just fine and covers the required range using a sub.

Rob

[Baron030]

Quoted by Kevin:
The components I have decided to use per side (well up to this point) is:
1-2405
1-2425 with 2370A
1-2012
1-2226

Hi Kevin
If you really want to go with these drivers then I would suggest going with either an active 3-way or 4-way electronic crossover network.
Johnaec is right about possibly using a passive crossover for the 2405 driver and an electronic 3-way for the rest.
Since, the high frequency drivers are much more efficient.
The power requirements for these are about a tenth of what is required for the lower frequency drivers.

In my own system, I like the 2226 drivers for their punchy bass.
But, their response really does falls off below 40Hz.
And from what I read, the 2235 will go almost another octave lower.
So, you should take that into account in your own design considerations.
And ask yourself is that lowest octave important to you or not?

Now, I know that in my own case.
That if at some point, I should start feeling bass deprived for that bottom octave.
I can always take two 2242s, and call my doctor in the morning.
Now, if I could just find the room for two Widget boxes…

The 2012H Maximum Output 250mm midrange/mid-bass does have it challenges.
The 2012 driver has a rising on-axis response that does require some EQ for it to sound right.
In my own system, I use a passive parallel trap circuit between a crown K1 and the 2012H driver to flatten the response over a 300 to 1200Hz range.

Here is a link to my 2012 passive EQ circuit: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=20823

Unfortunately, I don’t think that this simple parallel trap circuit could be added to a passive crossover network without other major modification.
So, it’s really only a solution for systems that are using active crossover networks.

And as far as the 2425/2370A combination and the 2405 drivers are concerned, there have been some posting covering this ground.
So, there are passive crossover network solutions for these drivers.

Good luck with your project,
Baron030

[Doc Mark]

That combination of drivers looks OK, but you may have problems getting passive crossovers lined up easily. What I'd do is use a passive only for the VHF 2405, around 7K or 8K, and use an active 3-way crossover for the rest, each range with its own amp. Of course, you'll need some sort of EQ with that, looking at the different response characteristics of the different drivers. But I think you could get it sounding fairly good, and capable of prodigious, (sp?), output if desired.

John

Hello, John,

I hope you're feeling better, and that your medical misadventure is on the way to being history, instead of current news. In any case, I was perusing this thread, and realized that when I thanked Baron030 for his suggestion of using a passive crossover for my 2405's, and active for everything else, you had already suggested that exact same thing, and I completely forgot to thank you, too, Sir!! Please accept my humble apology, and also my thanks for that outstanding idea!! It is a simple, but absolutely perfect solution to my quandry about making an actual 5-way system, including a subwoofer, and I very much appreciate your having suggested it!!!

Also, please don't give up on creating your dream system, John!! As one who gathered JBL components, then carried them around, and stored them in various homes in which we lived, for more than 20 years, I know that it sometimes takes quite a while for things to come together! But, I have every condidence that for you, just as it happened for me, time will eventually present itself, and your health will improve, and then you can finally realize your long-awaited dream system!! It will have been well worth the wait, my Friend!! Hang in there, and please keep us posted as to your progress in getting better. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[Ian Mackenzie]

Thanks,

Well its definately not diy user friendly if this is typical of production samples.

Some peaks are okay and some arn't as in of they are well damped and narrow.

If you can hear this one and is does not show on the impediance curve its weird.

The JBL data sheets are probably smoothed and I note your response curves are un smoothed but what the heck its there.

[Baron030]

Hi Ian

Yes, I would have to agree with you about the 2012H as not being very user friendly.
But, the 1 KHz peak does respond well to notch filtering. And if people can accept using this driver over a relatively narrow range of say about 400 Hz to 1200 Hz then my LCR solution for active crossover networks does work fairly well. Pictured below is the exact same data that I posted earlier. But, now it has 1/3 octave smoothing and I “db shifted" the left and right drivers outputs a little bit. So, that they are now normalized at 800Hz instead of the 1 KHz like I had posted earlier. Other then smoothing and db shifting, no other processing was done. With my 24db/octave electronic crossover set at 400Hz and 1200 Hz, you can see how I have gotten this driver to perform well in my system.

Now, the real challenge is to find a passive solution for someone like Kevin who wants to use an electronic crossover to handle the lower crossover point and then have a passive crossover network handle the upper crossover point.

Well, maybe I am stubborn or just plan stupid. But, I still think that a 1 KHz series notch filter combined 2nd or 3rd order low pass filter could be a solution to Kevin's problems. And of the two different orders, I like your idea of using a 2nd order as an 18db/octive low pass filter. From my experiments with parallel LCR filters, I remember that I was always playing the 1 KHz peak against a LCR filter induced dip at 800 Hz and the higher the LCR "Q" the better the results that I got. And I would think that without a series notch filter, a 2nd order low pass network would have fairly flat response over a 400 Hz to 1000 Hz range, but not without a big dip at 800Hz. or it could have a really flat between 400 and 800Hz and still have a 1 KHz peak. Of the two flavors of 2nd order filter that I just described, the one with the 1 KHz peak would be the easier to fix with a series notch filter. But, I am not sure how the overall system impedance would be affected. It could really mess things up with the high pass section of the crossover or then again maybe not? :dont-know

There is one thing that I can say for certain. If someone can get past this hurtle, then I think there will be a lot more successful DIY projects out there using the 2012H driver.

Baron030

[4313B]

Aren't 2122H's and 2123H's alot cheaper?