Dumb thought: Anyone ever compared an L7 and an L300 side-by-side?

[hjames]

Oh yeah, there were no EQs or tone controls used throughout with the following exceptions:

I did push the Loudness button on the Denon integrated amp a couple of times just for giggles, mostly when trying the HP430s and S38s.

There was a parametric EQ in line with the TR225s, set for feedback reduction, which really didn't matter 'cause they were set for mono and they sound pretty crappy anyway and nobody really seemed to care much.

je

That was the basement systems testing - quite late in the day - Fred's existing L110s and L100s blew away the L1s, l20T3s and S-38_vIIs by a wide margin! (even with Loudness bump!)

But what a fun day - the drive down was great, the leaves along I66 and I81 were in full colour - and the company ... magnifique!

I'll dump my camera when I get home tonight and see if I have any good pictures - I kept forgetting to shoot!

The audio test was great - Fred's 4333s vs Phil's L7 4ways ... with Opimax's 120tis for grins later ...
I'll preface this by saying that I own 2 pairs of vintage systems, I'm used to the 15s/2420-horns/2405-slots sound, and I was really impressed with the L7 speakers - very very cool ... Its a great sound, different that the older horn systems, but still quite fine ...

I wouldn't swap either of my big pairs for a set of L7s - but that's just me because I know what mine sound like with lots of kinds of music - just as it took me a while to get used to the big horn speakers, I think it would take me a while to "unlearn" the sound I am currently most familiar with.

That said, if I didn't already own two big horn systems, I'd snap up a set of L7s in a heartbeat -
they have a great sound and are quite exciting to listen to ... and look to be a lot more affordable than the price on a set of the vintage 15" 3 or 4way systems.

[Doc Mark]

Hey, Fred, Heather, and All,

WOW!! This is already fun, and the reports are just beginning to roll in!! I only wish I could have been there to enjoy the day with you folks!! Fred, your place is outstanding, and you have a regular museum going downstairs!!

No matter the actual "outcome" of this testing, I'm just so very glad that you guys actually made it happen, and I can hardly wait to share in your fun, vicariously, through your reports and photos!! Well done, and thanks, so much, for sharing it!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc (who's on needles and pins, waiting to continue enjoying this neat stuff!!)

[Titanium Dome]

Yes, I'm getting all worked up with anticipation. It sounds very cool.

Can a West Coast event be far behind?

[Fred Sanford]

4333A (Higher extension of high frequencies than any other here, by an obvious margin. However, I think the 2405s were set a touch too loud, especially with the grilles off. 2231As are tired, and don't drop down as low as I think they should, might also not be as clean/clear as they could be due to spider sag & the questionable old Ashly crossover. I'm also still unhappy with the 800Hz area, right around my crossover point. A new active x-over is likely in the future, at the very least I need to borrow an RTA & calibrated mic. Overall very clean sound, easy to differentiate individual instruments & voices. I honestly think we hurt their sound a bit by having the L7s forward and outboard of them, that plus the grilles off made the horns harsher than what I'm used to in that room.)

HP420 (Placement dependant, strained in the low mids where the 5" driver picks up from ~140Hz, JBL tweeter is nice, aftermarket tweeter is only OK. Not bad, and surprising kick when "Rrroudness" button kicked in.)

L110 (A little dry when played right after the 120Ti/L7/4333A segment wrapped up, but in the assignment I've given it [near-field monitor] that's not such a bad thing. Accurate, solid, non-fatiguing.)

L100 (Sounded good on the Tempest song Mark hard-headedly insisted we use as reference []; the tweeters always seem to grate on me, and the free-running woofer irritates me where it fights with the mid. Current config of a shelf near the ceiling and ZilchPlugg stuffing its hole isn't terrible, and the Crown DC300A is solid but not as pretty sounding as the Yamaha P2100 I was using previously.)

L46 (I'm liking these more and more every day. I think the pairing with the Elan Z-Amp is a good one. Placement near the ceiling seems to give me some reflections from the tweets, but I don't hate it. They do seem to be a very localized source, which isn't always good for surround- as in, it sounds like 5 distinct sound sources, instead of a nice, enveloping environment. Velodyne sub is good, but adjacent wall is too flimsy & often vibrates.)

TR225 (Eh. Big Eons. Absolutely fine as vocal monitors in my small studio, and came in handy for a couple of easy outdoor DJ gigs. :dont-know )

L7 (I'll try to stay away from "...for the money"-type statements, 'cause there's just no question that these are killers for the $200-300 deals we're hearing about. Solid, pleasing, smooth. I'd grab a pair if I had a location for them. Probably could have done them better justice by making sure we were balancing the highs & lows with the power amps, but I can't say that there was anything glaring, just that it was a guess. They need to be out away from the wall, so I'd think you'd need a big, or at least sparsely-furnished room.)

120Ti (We started with these up on barstools as stands, to get the drivers up near the height of the L7s. Mmmmm...only OK, a little anemic. Dropped them to the floor, and the punch showed up. There's certainly a happy medium, if we spent more time with placement. These were outboard of the L7s, which were outboard & forward from the 4333As. Tough crowd, tough room, and these I'm sure suffered for the lack of care & attention we gave to their setup. Played with two of the 60W amps within the 2535s- the amp didn't seem to struggle, but we weren't pushing it. At this point we also did the same with the L7s, with input jumper straps in place.)

L5 (stayed in the wannabeemer mini-van, never came inside. )

NOTE- these next few were heard on small stands, maybe 12-14" high:

L1 (I liked it. Solid, not terribly articulate midrange, but not annoying or vague either. Didn't sound like it looked, never really sounded like a smaller speaker to me. I should have compared it to the HP420s, now I'm kind of curious to hear those tweets in an A/B.)

S38 (I didn't like it. Interesting look & configuration, lacked definition in the mids and might have actually been the worst we heard for high-end extension. Heather mentioned that her previous pair had an obviously different sound, so take that for what it's worth.)

L20T3 (Boxy, kinda like thumpin' on cardboard. Always drew my attention to their size. I think I could do a lot with better placement, and maybe a sub would free up these woofs to offer up some clarity to the midrange.)

...and a couple other speakers were heard here & there:

Canton Karat 20 (I really like these for surround, very natural for voice & sound effects, and they don't bring attention to themselves visually or audibly. Also great for lower-volume music listening, slightly hyped highs & a theater-type sub are a kind of built-in compensation for that use. Strained a bit when compared with the bigger JBLs for higher-volume tests, but didn't embarrass themselves.)

Canton Plus S (tossed quickly on the pile after the L20T3s and L1s, they were good but obviously satellites in search of a sub. Interestingly, these seemed to simply NOT play low freqs it couldn't handle, where the L20T3s tried to push it out & ended up hurting the overall sound. I like these for ambient music in a room, again the highs are a bit hyped so a mellower amp & less in-your-face placement pays off nicely. I've used these consistently for over 20 years, they've been real troopers.)

NHT SW10 sub (Ported 10". I love it for the size, I've had some little electronic quirks with it but think it was well worth the money.)

Velodyne VA-1210X sub (10" front-firing driver, 12" down-firing passive. Beefy. Its current shoved-in-a-corner location is an audio compromise, it's obvious that the left side of the room is heavier than the right. Two smaller subs up front would actually be a better approach, I think.)

M&K V3B sub (12" sealed acoustic suspension. Actually barely even on, under the desk with the L110s. The L110s are running full-range, the M&K is actually only in place to keep me from pushing too much low-end into my mixes- as soon as I can feel the bass against my legs, there's enough in the mix. I like it, but it's got a specific function to carry out in this config.)

I'm curious about other attendees' opinions on the following:

Pioneer DVL-91 (used as the CD player/transport for the Living Room)

Adcom 2535 (power amps used upstairs)

L110s/M&K V3B (control room, only listened to snips of 2 songs, I think)

HP420s (studio, octagonal black towers)

Elan power amp (studio surround system, powering the L46s)

je

[hjames]

Just dumped the few pix from the camera - like I said, we had so much fun and the socializing so good that after a few initial pictures I forgot to keep shooting ...

[Doc Mark]

Hey, Fred and Heather,

Great stuff!! Please keep it coming! Did you remember to take a group photo of all of you, so we can all "meet you in person"? That's always fun! Thanks, again, for all your efforts, and it's great to hear your thoughts on everything, and to see how it was all setup. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[hjames]

... (Sounded good on the Tempest song Mark hard-headedly insisted we use as reference [];

je

Hey - I was at the Richmond Highland Festival LAST weekend, so when I heard Mark's celtic Rock (not quite Seven Nations or Lunasa but cool) I had to add it to the collection!
Enough good music that this morning I ordered that Tempest CD (The Double-Cross), the first FourPlay CD and another that celtic album that John recommended (In Tua Nua) - Lord knows I love me some pipers!

(Quick snaps from an 8 minute AVI I shot of maybe 100+ pipers and drummers going by)

[Fred Sanford]

That was the basement systems testing - quite late in the day - Fred's existing L110s and L100s blew away the L1s, l20T3s and S-38_vIIs by a wide margin! (even with Loudness bump!)

That's kind of expected, though, no? What did you think of the HP420s, did you get a feel for them at all?

But what a fun day - the drive down was great, the leaves along I66 and I81 were in full colour - and the company ... magnifique!

I'll dump my camera when I get home tonight and see if I have any good pictures - I kept forgetting to shoot!

Excellent- we were happy to have good weather, it's always a drag if people come over and can't spend at least a little time outside on the deck or porch. It's always good to see the two of you, hope Emma liked our place. I thought she'd be into at least some of the listening, but she seemed to prefer the outdoors.

The audio test was great - Fred's 4333s vs Phil's L7 4ways ... with Opimax's 120tis for grins later ...
I'll preface this by saying that I own 2 pairs of vintage systems, I'm used to the 15s/2420-horns/2405-slots sound, and I was really impressed with the L7 speakers - very very cool ... Its a great sound, different that the older horn systems, but still quite fine ...

I wouldn't swap either of my big pairs for a set of L7s - but that's just me because I know what mine sound like with lots of kinds of music - just as it took me a while to get used to the big horn speakers, I think it would take me a while to "unlearn" the sound I am currently most familiar with.

That said, if I didn't already own two big horn systems, I'd snap up a set of L7s in a heartbeat -
they have a great sound and are quite exciting to listen to ... and look to be a lot more affordable than the price on a set of the vintage 15" 3 or 4way systems.

I'm with you on all of that...I've just gotten really lucky on all of mine, if I had to purchase any of mine at the going market rate, things would be much different.

je

[Fred Sanford]

Hey, Fred, Heather, and All,

WOW!! This is already fun, and the reports are just beginning to roll in!! I only wish I could have been there to enjoy the day with you folks!! Fred, your place is outstanding, and you have a regular museum going downstairs!!

Is that just a nice way of saying, "Dude, all your stuff is really OLD!"?
Thanks, I think...

No matter the actual "outcome" of this testing, I'm just so very glad that you guys actually made it happen, and I can hardly wait to share in your fun, vicariously, through your reports and photos!! Well done, and thanks, so much, for sharing it!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc (who's on needles and pins, waiting to continue enjoying this neat stuff!!)

We ought to organize a bit better, this was something we were winging as we went along. We also did this on Daylight Savings day, so starting at noon didn't give us a big enough block of time, considering that half of us had a 5 hour round trip as bookends to the shindig. We'll do it again, don't worry. If you can make it to VA you can check out the drum set, too!

je

[Fred Sanford]

Yes, I'm getting all worked up with anticipation. It sounds very cool.

Can a West Coast event be far behind?

Weren't you the one that commented on my basement plans, and the inevitable density of my "stuff"? Tough to gauge from the pics, but it's working out OK so far. Once I actually get 4 or more people playing in the studio at the same time I may reconsider that statement, though.

It's kind of revealing to even run through my own systems all in a row with the same recordings. Interesting.

je

[Fred Sanford]

Hey, Fred and Heather,

Great stuff!! Please keep it coming! Did you remember to take a group photo of all of you, so we can all "meet you in person"? That's always fun! Thanks, again, for all your efforts, and it's great to hear your thoughts on everything, and to see how it was all setup. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Of course not! You get to see the side of my JBL t-shirt, Phil's posterior, and Mark's shoe.



je

Oh, yeah, and the pooch in the pic we call "Nurse Olivine", she likes to oversee any detailed tasks that may be taking place at floor level. She's actually the pooch that likes listening to the stereo, too- our Lab couldn't care less.

[opimax]

and its a nice shoe!!!

Mark

[hjames]

Of course not! You get to see the side of my JBL t-shirt, Phil's posterior, and Mark's shoe.



je

Oh, yeah, and the pooch in the pic we call "Nurse Olivine", she likes to oversee any detailed tasks that may be taking place at floor level. She's actually the pooch that likes listening to the stereo, too- our Lab couldn't care less.

How else would we be able to maintain the anonymity and the mystery of the Shenandoah Valley listening party?
Mark's Shoe, and my shoebox of test CDs!

And the Photog is never in the picture - so sorry!

The dogs? We HAD to have a standalone woofer!
And Emma says the Lab loved her blues harp playing ... barky good times!

[macaroonie]

(Quick snaps from an 8 minute AVI I shot of maybe 100+ pipers and drummers going by)[/QUOTE]

You tube it and post the link please.

On that subject you can view the nonsense in my local last Fri if you you tube search ' poodle drymen '. dude raised £1000 ish for getting his hair cut.!!

[BMWCCA]

Sorry to chime in so late but I had work to take care of today; and I had to put my system back together, or at least get it out of the van and back upstairs before the rains set in for election day here in Central Virginia.

For my part, I dragged along the L7s, L5s, L1s, 4412As, Soundcraftsmen DX4200, Soundcraftsmen Pro-Control-Four, and two Crown PS-400s. It was truly a van-full and I was just hoping I wouldn't get stopped by a LEO and have to explain what houses I'd just broken into.

I started this idea just because there seemed to be no one on this list who's had the opportunity to actually listen to the iconic L300 next to the upstart L7. I'd always intended to buy myself a pair of L300s as a house-warming present but sending two daughters to college and one still to go has left me not only not ready to buy the L300s at the prevailing market price, but also unable to build the new home on my property across the street. Oh well, I'll just have to live longer!

So John (Fred Sanford) offered not only his 4333s as L300 stand-ins, but also his home for the venue. Fred had met Heather, and Heather and Fred had met me previously, and Heather and Mark (Opimax) had previously met——all through this list. This was the first time John and I had met Mark but it was a natural thing since we're all sharing this crazy hobby. But John has the kind of "collection" you can go home and use to convince your (my) wife that you (me) aren't as crazy as some others!

After we ate ourselves into the proper mood, we sat down for some serious listening.

John went out of his way to present a level playing field for the L7/4333 comparison. Matching amps, split source, and even the pink-noise generator and dB meter. He also had the unenviable task of being our human A-B switch. Of course we all loved the 4333s; that was never really in question. They're still an aspirational speaker for me and one of those brass rings that make life worth living. But I think what surprised us all was that often when listening to the L7s first on a selection (we swapped order frequently, just because) it sometimes took us a while to settle back into the 4333 sound. Of course they were quite different but sometimes the low-end felt a bit mushy on the L7s when it was articulate on the big monitors. And then sometimes the bass sounded right on the L7s and overemphasized (for lack of a better word) on the 4333s right after. There is no question that horns sound MUCH better on a horn, and in most cases we all could pick out some nuances in the mid-range of the 4333 that just wasn't there on the cones of the L7. What struck me also was that my own music didn't sound all that much better on the 4433s but I could easily tell differences on new-to-me music. Persistence of memory? Cognitive dissonance? Certainly unfamiliar selections made for a better control.

I'm glad to have heard the 4333s in such a nice set-up and they didn't ever disappoint. I can't imagine that there's much better out there for home listening. But the L7s are impressive boxes as were the 120Ti's. It was amazing how much we altered the 120Ti output with one placement adjustment and not spending much time on them. A quick listen to them alongside the L7s, splitting the power to both, showed them to be superb for their size. I equate their sound to my 4412As but we just ran out of time to do that comparison. Nor did we really spend much time comparing the 120Ti to the L7 though the differences between those two was far less obvious than the L7-to-4333 comparison. Still, horns aside, a 12" is seldom a match for a 15" JBL. Cabinet size along with woofer size essentially pitted the V8 4333 against the 6-cylinder 12" systems, and you can guess which won what Mark described as a horsepower war.

The one comparison I was sorry we didn't have time to do was to set up each system the way it's powered where they live. For John, he was pretty much set since it was his home. He does use the sub with the 4333s but, growing up with D130s and not being into HT, too much bass seems a bit unnatural to me anyway so that's not what I wanted to hear. But I would like to try the L7 with the 4333 again but with the power I feed the L7 at home, or even twice that in the passive bi-amp mode they are designed for. The 4333s are rated a bit more efficient but with a small power requirement. JBL lists the "maximum power input" for the 4333 as 75 watts with a note saying they recommend a minimum of 3db of headroom or essentially for 75-watts the recommendation is a 150-watt-per-channel amp as a minimum. John had his 4333s split through active crossovers using 60-watt-per-channel Adcoms so even the 4333s might have benifitted from a bit more kick, but we really never went that loud. I never saw a maximum recommendation that correlated with the minimum head-room recommendation so maybe someone else can fill me in on that stat. The L300 literature recommends amplification "up to" 150 WPC with an apparent minimum of 10-wpc.

The L7 is a hungrier animal and JBL lists the recommended power range of 35-to-450 WPC. Now assuming that's at the rated 6-ohm impedence, bi-amping the PS-400s should produce something around 260 WPC. That might actually provide an interesting comparison over the 60 WPC we were providing with the Adcom—which performed beatifully. I've played them pretty loud at home with that 260-watts of Crown in non-bi-amp mode. I was going to set them up in bi-amp as I re-installed them in their room, but instead opted for using one PS-400 each to the L7s and the L5s. I can dump the straps and swap the speaker leads some other time. It might blow the roof off my tiny home.

The little speakers were an interesting comparison. While Heather was looking to dump her L20Ts for the S38-IIs in her surround-sound system, what I heard with those compared to the L1s and L20T3 would have me questioning making the effort. I've run my L1s next to my L20Ts and found little difference. I think Mark and I agreed there was little to differentiate the L20T3s from the L1s and we'd all have to conclude that those tiniest of all "real" JBLs are some pretty amazing accomplishments, perhaps with no equal in the current JBL lineup.

John asked and I found nothing to fault the system setup or any of the components. The electronics worked faultessly and in no way brought attention to themselves during the listening. There was some great music passed around and I'm sure we have much more to share should we be lucky enough to pull this off again. If I had to make one conclusion after all the effort everyone went to it would be that the 4333/L300 is still the king of what normal people might allow in their home's living room. The L7 is a fine speaker that is certainly the equal of any other 12" JBL system (perhaps the king of those) and certainly an undervalued gem in today's market. I'm thinking an interesting comparison might be the 240ti and the L7. I've always had a soft spot for the LE14H-1 and I'd like to pit it against the 4333/L300 at some point.

Yes, we had fun. Lots of it!! I'd love to do it again (even if I nearly gave myself a heart attack schlepping the L5s, L7s, and the big Crowns up the stairs at home by myself while my wife was away!). Today I envisioned an outdoor shelter where the systems could play loud without boundaries. But that must have been mostly because I was standing outside around 5:30pm watching a most beautiful sunset over the Blue Ridge Mountains this evening.

A special thanks to John and Jean for sharing their home, feeding us all, and just putting up with this silliness on a beautiful Sunday afternoon when they could have been elsewhere. Thanks to Mark, Heather, and Emma for making a long trip and bringing along such goodies. I'd heartily recommend this activity for the rest of you. Some might want it to be more scientific but I'd do it for the camaraderie!

And thanks to LHF for bringing us all together and fostering such friendships and support.