Telarc 1812 and the L300's!

[Doc Mark]

Greetings, Friends,

Well, now that my goose-bumps have all subsided, and my heartrate is getting back to normal, I decided to post a quick note on my just-finished listen of the Telarc recording of the 1812 Overture! To put it mildly: HOLY MOLY, CHICKEN SOUP!!! WOW! That thing is super well recorded, and extremely well mixed. Through the regular stuff, I watched the lights on my Audio Control C101 show a level mix, which almost never happens, in my experience. Of course, when the cannons went off, well, that was the end of the "level mix"!!!! I also think, for the very first time, I heard my little 100wpc Harman Kardon H/K870 amp, which has 60 amps of high current cabability, clip! Since that little amp can put out almost 4 times it's rated output, for transients that need more power, that disk really called out the horsepower!! It only happened at the end, but that was enough for me! I never want to hear that sound again!

How did the L300's fare through all this? Absolutely perfectly, with not a whimper, a crackle, or bottoming out, and in fact, the 2235H's weren't even breathing hard, even during the cannon firing!!! And, on top of the cannon, everything else, the bells, and orchestra, were pristinely crisp and clear!! What more could you want?? However, for that kind of listening, I most definitely will biamp, and use MUCH more power on the bottom end!! For regular music, I think that the L300's can take care of themselves. But, after this educational listening experience, I'm DEFINITELY going to put that JBL 2242HPL into the recently found 4518 cabinet, and biamp it, for just this kind of thing!! I had a fantastic time doing this, and it was very educational, interesting, and fun!!! Thanks to Oznob for suggesting that disk in the first place, and I pass along his recommendation! Now, if my ears will get back to normal, I'll put on Jennifer Warnes and get back to work!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[Hoerninger]

Which version did you take,
LP, CD or SACD?
____________
Peter

[Doc Mark]

Which version did you take,
LP, CD or SACD?
____________
Peter

Hello, Peter,

Well, I'm not sure, actually. When I ordered it, I though I was getting a CD. However, what arrived is called a "DVD Audio", and the case specifically states "this disc will not play on a CD player". Hummm.... The disc is supposed to be recorded in what's called "Direct Stream Digital". That means absolutely nothing to me, however. But, I must say, it's very well done, and I'm super satisfied with it! Our CD player, which is also from H/K, is a CD/DVD player, so the disc did play on it. This disc also offers "discrete multichannel surround", and is 2-sided, with DVD-Audio program on side "A", and DVD-Video/DVD-Rom program on side "B" Again, all that means nothing to this old Texas-born Country Boy! Any thoughts, please? Thanks, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[Rolf]

Greetings, Friends,

Well, now that my goose-bumps have all subsided, and my heartrate is getting back to normal, I decided to post a quick note on my just-finished listen of the Telarc recording of the 1812 Overture! To put it mildly: HOLY MOLY, CHICKEN SOUP!!! WOW! That thing is super well recorded, and extremely well mixed. Through the regular stuff, I watched the lights on my Audio Control C101 show a level mix, which almost never happens, in my experience. Of course, when the cannons went off, well, that was the end of the "level mix"!!!! I also think, for the very first time, I heard my little 100wpc Harman Kardon H/K870 amp, which has 60 amps of high current cabability, clip! Since that little amp can put out almost 4 times it's rated output, for transients that need more power, that disk really called out the horsepower!! It only happened at the end, but that was enough for me! I never want to hear that sound again!

How did the L300's fare through all this? Absolutely perfectly, with not a whimper, a crackle, or bottoming out, and in fact, the 2235H's weren't even breathing hard, even during the cannon firing!!! And, on top of the cannon, everything else, the bells, and orchestra, were pristinely crisp and clear!! What more could you want?? However, for that kind of listening, I most definitely will biamp, and use MUCH more power on the bottom end!! For regular music, I think that the L300's can take care of themselves. But, after this educational listening experience, I'm DEFINITELY going to put that JBL 2242HPL into the recently found 4518 cabinet, and biamp it, for just this kind of thing!! I had a fantastic time doing this, and it was very educational, interesting, and fun!!! Thanks to Oznob for suggesting that disk in the first place, and I pass along his recommendation! Now, if my ears will get back to normal, I'll put on Jennifer Warnes and get back to work!! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Of course your little HK is clipping (100W, 60A) I have 1400W 280A, and clipping occur on that recording (CD) on my 4343's on loud levels.

[Doc Mark]

Of course your little HK is clipping (100W, 60A) I have 1400W 280A, and clipping occur on that recording (CD) on my 4343's on loud levels.

Hey, Rolf,

That is super funny!! When I read your comment, and burst out laughing!!! You are oh so right, my paltry little H/K amp just won't cut the mustard, at least with such a demanding piece of music!! But, for regular listening, at the volume we enjoy, they will work fine until I can get my Crown DC-300A's put into the mix. That all depends on when that JBL 4518 cabinet that I found, arrives here. I plan to use one of the Crowns, in mono-mode, as the amp for that subwoofer. But, until that happens, I guess I could use both Crowns, both in mono, to power the L300's. No time, right now, to mess with it, however. Thanks, very much, for the reality check, regarding power needed for the Telarc 1812, Rolf! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[grumpy]

Note that in going from 100w to 1400w, the perceived loudness, through
similarly sensitive systems, in similarly size rooms, is just a little more than
twice as loud.

The dynamics present on this recording can be surprisingly difficult to
reproduce, even at what seem to be 'reasonable' levels for most of the
program... hence the marketing, er... caution label

[Rolf]

Well, I am not sure I understand your argument. As far as I know a 3db increase required twice the power. That is if 100w can give 90db 200w is required for 93db 400w for 96db and so on. isn't that correct?

Regarding the amper, this is in my experience more important. .. The headroom for the amp .. not clipping. Right or wrong?

Note that in going from 100w to 1400w, the perceived loudness, through
similarly sensitive systems, in similarly size rooms, is just a little more than
twice as loud.

The dynamics present on this recording can be surprisingly difficult to
reproduce, even at what seem to be 'reasonable' levels for most of the
program... hence the marketing, er... caution label

[toddalin]

Well, I am not sure I understand your argument. As far as I know a 3db increase required twice the power. That is if 100w can give 90db 200w is required for 93db 400w for 96db and so on. isn't that correct?

Regarding the amper, this is in my experience more important. .. The headroom for the amp .. not clipping. Right or wrong?

Doubling the power does produce a 3 dB increase. But that increase is considered as barely preceptable.

Most people perceive a 10 dB increase to be twice as loud, and that is what Grumpy was getting at.

Actually the difference between 1,400 watts and 100 watts (assuming that the speakers can handle the power and excursion) is 11.5 dB. (Which is why Grumpy said a little more than twice as loud.)

The calculation is:

Resultant dB = 10 x log(desired power/reference power)

10 x log(1,400/100) = 11.5 dB

[Hoerninger]

WOW! That thing is super well recorded, and extremely well mixed.

Hello Doc,
I asked for the medium (LP, CD, SACD ... ), as there is a technical problem with tracking on the LP. Telarc will know and they have made good efforts to make the guns sound nice on modern mediums! I own the SACD version.

Guns produce such an air pressure that will never be produced by speakers correctly.
___________
Peter

[Rolf]

Agreed. That was what I thought too. Not many speakers can "swallow" 1400W tho. for the record, my 1400W (and A) is the total. (L+R)

Doubling the power does produce a 3 dB increase. But that increase is considered as barely preceptable.

Most people perceive a 10 dB increase to be twice as loud, and that is what Grumpy was getting at.

Actually the difference between 1,400 watts and 100 watts (assuming that the speakers can handle the power and excursion) is 11.5 dB. (Which is why Grumpy said a little more than twice as loud.)

The calculation is:

Resultant dB = 10 x log(desired power/reference power)

10 x log(1,400/100) = 11.5 dB

[Rusnzha]

Hello, Peter,

Well, I'm not sure, actually. When I ordered it, I though I was getting a CD. However, what arrived is called a "DVD Audio", and the case specifically states "this disc will not play on a CD player". Hummm.... The disc is supposed to be recorded in what's called "Direct Stream Digital". That means absolutely nothing to me, however. But, I must say, it's very well done, and I'm super satisfied with it! Our CD player, which is also from H/K, is a CD/DVD player, so the disc did play on it. This disc also offers "discrete multichannel surround", and is 2-sided, with DVD-Audio program on side "A", and DVD-Video/DVD-Rom program on side "B" Again, all that means nothing to this old Texas-born Country Boy! Any thoughts, please? Thanks, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

CDs are recorded with 16 bit/44.1Khz
SACD is a high resolution format using Direct Stream Digital/2.88Mhz. SACDs can have 2 to 6 discrete channels and when done right sound a lot better than CDs
DVD Audio is a high resolution format recorded at 24 bit/96, 192Khz. Stereo DVD Audio is at 192Khz and Multi-channel DVD Audio is at 96Khz. All I can make of the reference to Direct Stream Digital is that they converted it to PCM for the DVD Audio. Many DVD Audio disks also have a DTS track on them.

[grumpy]

Regarding the amper, this is in my experience more important. .. The headroom for the amp .. not clipping. Right or wrong?

As audio amps, with few exceptions, are voltage amplifiers, rated amperage is
important to the extent that it is not a limitation at the driven voltage and speaker
impedance. If an amplifier can put out 50A continuously but only 3Vrms, into an "8 ohm"
speaker, you'll still only get out a bit over 1W, and it -will- clip beyond that 3Vrms
level, and still sound nasty when it does. I'm not saying current capability is not
important, for some speakers, I expect it would be very important, but not more
important than having enough voltage -and- current capability to not clip or
otherwise distort.

"Headroom" (to me) usually implies an amp that is over-built relative to it's cooling
capability. There are many ways to implement this for home-use amplifiers, some quite
good, some... not so much (IMO).

-grumpy

[Doc Mark]

Good Morning, Grumpy, and All,

This is great information! I had always thought that amplifiers with higher current capacity, which I thought was rated in amps, could deliver more clean power into whatever load they are driving, before clipping would occur. Furthermore, and please correct me if I'm wrong, here, I always thought that a speakers impedance changed with what was being played through it. If you are playing something into a nominal 8 ohm load, and you crank up the volume, then get heavy bass content, doesn't the speakers impedance drop like a stone, even approaching 1-2 ohms? This is why I thought a high amp rating, as well as high output in watts, was indicative of the amp's ability to handle vast and demanding transients, without clipping, or distortion. Am I wrong about that?

As I've stated several times, I'm most certainly not an engineer, nor a tech, and absolutely not an expert on anything. But, I do enjoy the road to knowlege, even knowing that I'll never really "get there"!! Thanks for helping to educate this Old Timer! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

[grumpy]

I had always thought that amplifiers with higher current capacity, which I thought was rated in amps, could deliver more clean power into whatever load they are driving, before clipping would occur.

Current capacity is indeed rated in amps (amperes)... often, what is quoted is an
absolute peak, good for a few mS.

"Clipping" means some stage of the amplifier is being "asked" (by the level of input
voltage) to exceed it's voltage capability, usually determined/limited by the DC
power supply. Most often the output stage is where the voltage limit is being exceeded.

If the current capability of the amplifier can not "keep up" with the combined demands
of the signal (input voltage x amplifier gain), complex speaker impedance, and
frequency range where the energy is peaking (could be narrow or wide), the
available voltage will also drop, ... e.g., clipping will occur at lower levels.

Some speakers tend to make this more significant than others.

Furthermore, and please correct me if I'm wrong, here, I always thought that a speakers impedance changed with what was being played through it. If you are playing something into a nominal 8 ohm load, and you crank up the volume, then get heavy bass content, doesn't the speakers impedance drop like a stone, even approaching 1-2 ohms? This is why I thought a high amp rating, as well as high output in watts, was indicative of the amp's ability to handle vast and demanding transients, without clipping, or distortion. Am I wrong about that?

Although the effect of -heating- a voice coil and perhaps magnet can have the effect
of reducing the output at very high levels (power compression), and modifying the
impedance, my own understanding is that the largest variations are with respect to
frequency. If it were just the temperature of a Cu or Al coil involved, I'd -expect- the
impedance to rise with temperature, not fall. The only other related thing that I can
guess you might be thinking of is a shift in tuning with power level... (?)

[Hoerninger]

Clipping can occure with voltage same as with current. As a rule of thump it can be said that high impedance speakers (8 ohm) tend to suffer from voltage clipping while low impedance speakers (4 ohm) tend to suffer from current clipping. But it depends on the design of the power supply.

What makes things worth is that cheap power supplies have a voltage drop with high currents. Then for peak power current is mainly delivered by the capacitors within the PSU and this works only for a short span of time.

You can regard the impedance as independend from volume.
___________
Peter