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Thread: Limits?

  1. #1
    Regis
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    Limits?

    Sunday, I was overtaken by the dark side of my personality and I just had to see what both pairs of speakers that I own are like when I run them together. The L-300's and the 4315's actually sound very, very good together. Throw in some serious techno, like Juno Reactor's 'Labryinth' and you can get a serious pounding going on.

    The dilemna: While getting this absolute wall of sound going, I looked at the vintage ESS Eclipse amp running the 4315's and noted with alarm that the meter lights were dimming in time with the music! The ESS is good for 200 wpc plus and it's running off the same livingroom circuit as the Perreaux 200P, which is good for 200 wpc too.

    Short of upgrading the in-wall electrical, Should I be running the ESS off've another circuit in the house with a large extension cord? The setup is about 20 feet from the kitchen. Or can I put in a bigger circuit breaker in the fuse box that will allow more amperage?

  2. #2
    Senior Member jblsound's Avatar
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    Is the circuit 15 or 20 amps? I would check to see if that circuit is running other large power drawing equipment somewhere else in the house.

    I've been running a 5 channel, 220wpc amp and an 800wpc stereo amp on the same circuit (20 amps), plus all the other gear with no problems. But that circuit is dedicated, only to the LR outlets, with only the HT gear drawing power.

  3. #3
    Senior Member grumpy's Avatar
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    Plug a small 4-7w nightlight into the same AC circuit. If it is also dimming
    to the beat, then I'd look into running a dedicated service to the area, or
    lowering the volume (if having the work done is unfeasible, for whatever
    reason, or if realistically, you don't crank it up like that very often).

    I doubt installing a larger breaker would help, unless the one in use is
    damaged... it's there to protect an overload of the capacity of the wires
    from the service panel to the outlets (house on fire = bad)

    Could be that the ESS meter lamp current comes from a feed off of the
    rectified DC shared by amp output stage... in which case, the "brown out"
    could be local to the amp (loosely regulated supply)... but I know nothing
    of the ESS amp design. Does this happen if the Perreaux isn't on?

  4. #4
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regis View Post
    Or can I put in a bigger circuit breaker in the fuse box that will allow more amperage?
    NO! NO! NO! The circuit breaker is rated for the wire size that is in the wall. If you put a larger breaker in there you risk burning down your house.


    Widget

  5. #5
    Senior Seņor boputnam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regis View Post
    ...I was overtaken by the dark side of my personality...
    Hmm... First time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Regis View Post
    ......I looked at the vintage ESS Eclipse amp running the 4315's and noted ... the meter lights were dimming in time with the music!
    What are the meters 'sposed to do? Does the manual say anything? This might be an designed indication for clipping conditions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Regis View Post
    ...Short of upgrading the in-wall electrical, Should I be running the ESS off've another circuit in the house with a large extension cord? The setup is about 20 feet from the kitchen. Or can I put in a bigger circuit breaker in the fuse box that will allow more amperage?
    I don't believe the symptom indicates a circuit capacity problem. And, it's a bad idea to spread across multiple AC circuits unless you know they are sharing ground - noise can result.

    I don't know the amplifiers involved, but find it hard to believe a single Edison plug is insufficient. I can run an entire mid-sized PA off one - 5 amplifiers, FX rack, console and band backline - without trouble.

    Have you got the manual for the ESS?

  6. #6
    Senior Member jblsound's Avatar
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    Regis,
    Yes to MR. Widget's post.
    If the wire is 12/2 then its usually a 20 amp circuit, if its only 14/2 wire then its usually a 15 amp circuit and most likely a ceiling light only circuit.

    If, as I asked before, you find other appliances on that circuit, then as grumpy has suggested, run a dedicated circuit to that wall, if possible.

    How old is the house? Old houses can have inadequate wiring. And there was a peroid that contractors used Al wire instead of copper, which is no longer code.

  7. #7
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    Absolutely never increase the size of a circuit breaker which has been properly sized for the conductor gauge in use.

    Try this: Go to your panel, remove the cover, and very carefully, tighten all the Neutral connections (white wires) in the panel.....You may be experiencing "Brownout" which can occur with loose connections, particularly in the grounded (Neutral) conductor connections.

    **WARNING**....If you are not careful, or comfortable doing this, find a friend with electrical experience to do it for you !!

    Neutrals loosen through time due to vibrations (Trains. freeways, etc...) and should be looked at at least every 6-12 months. Although less common, the hot conductors attached to the circuit breaker itself can also loosen with time and conditions.

    **WARNING**....Turn off the individual breaker, or even the house main breaker before tightening the circuit breaker screws......The minor inconvenience of re-setting your clocks will more than offset the risk of shock, injury, or death if you do not shut them off. It's also advisable to shut the panel off when doing the Neutrals, just in case the screwdeiver slips off a screwhead while you are tightening it.. Ther can be a lot of trouble waiting in an energized panelboard!!!!

    If this doesn't help, consider running a dedicated home run circuit to your equipment.

    Good Luck

  8. #8
    Regis
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    Thumbs up

    Wow, so many great answers! Thanks! OK: I'll have to check what other appliances could be running off the living room circuit. As far as I know, there's only a swamp cooler in the dining room and that's turned off, when I listen to tunes (damned noisy, but it sure saves money on the electric bills here in the desert!). But I will turn off the circuit breaker and see what doesn't work in the house anymore. It is a mid-80's built two story of about 2.5K sq ft.

    JBLSound, I'll check the amperage rating of the c/breaker (but won't upsize it, as I hate fires too!)

    Grumpy, very good idea about the night light and also the dedicated use of the outlet (ceiling light or lamp light controlled by front door switch?). The Perreaux has only a small LED, so I can't tell if it's 'dimming'.

    Bo, unfortunately, I don't have a manual for the big ol' beast. I know some of the Soundcraftsmen amps had a cool 'clipping' LED feature. The ESS has clear christmas light bulbs as the gauge lamps and I did give thought to what circuit the lamps were driven off. I actually felt somewhat ashamed after submitting to the dark side! The output was tremendous! It was almost addicting. The L-300's alone are capable of being heard across the street and that's with all the doors and windows closed! While I have limited experience in the field, that was about as close to being in a disco, while sitting in my house.

    I did run the 4315's alone last night and next time I have the house to myself, I'll run the 4315's hard by themselves and watch the gauges. The sound sure didn't seem to hurt. The concern was driving the amp hard on one end, while depleting the input power to the amp (Perreuax and ESS drawing too much current). Now to investigate!

  9. #9
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    That is the DC rails on the amp sagging under load.

    Amps typically use the DC rails to power the lamp in the meter.

    Nothing to get too excited about.

    The 4315 are relatively in efficient compared to the L300 and probably a difficult load to drive.

    Just make sure you provide adequate ventilation for the amp.

  10. #10
    Regis
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    Thanks Ian for the perspective on the DC rails. The ESS is an old warrior and I may have to start looking for something else. Wouldn't mind restoring it either. There's 12 Motorola TO-3 trannies per channel, total 24!
    Attached Images Attached Images   

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    If its more than 20 years old get a technician to replace the filter capacitors. I would not mess with it otherwise.

    The old Phase linear 700B meter used to dim under 4 ohm as well...normal behaviour.

    Ian

  12. #12
    Senior Seņor boputnam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    That is the DC rails on the amp sagging under load....
    I'll bet you were close to square-waves, dood.

    I'd be wary of that symptom - use it as a governor (if your ears are no longer sufficient...! ) that things are excessively loud and you are at-risk of frying some dear voice coils.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by boputnam View Post
    I'll bet you were close to square-waves, dood.

    I'd be wary of that symptom - use it as a governor (if your ears are no longer sufficient...! ) that things are excessively loud and you are at-risk of frying some dear voice coils.
    Threshold of clipping 450 watts into eight ohms, 700 peak into four i doubt it. I know I never ran the amp past -5 dbV ever.

    Jands used dozens of racks of 700's for a decade or more running Clair Bros S4's. They did that for a reason.

    The thing is to understand the Vu lamps are run from a trickle current off the Dc rails with no dc smoothing from local bypass (bootstrapping) capacitors.

    In this case the rail are close to +- 100 volts. The capacitors were only 10,000 uf each rail. But in terms of joules of energy that is massive at that voltage and with an output stage that opens and closes like a barn gate there is no current limiting.

    A low impediance load is going to draw more current and the rails will dynamically change under transient load conditions as they are an unregulated supply. Hence you will see the lamps dim sometimes

    This is engineered into the design where the front end has high supply rejection and the rails are not designed to be stiff so as to offer a degree of SOA for the output stage rather than V/I limiting into low impediance loads. You can weld with those amps or run an electric motor.

    Massive open loop gain and equally massive negative feedback takes care of any distortion arising from non linear voltage fluctuations.

  14. #14
    Regis
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    Threshold of clipping 450 watts into eight ohms, 700 peak into four i doubt it. I know I never ran the amp past -5 dbV ever.

    Jands used dozens of racks of 700's for a decade or more running Clair Bros S4's. They did that for a reason.

    The thing is to understand the Vu lamps are run from a trickle current off the Dc rails with no dc smoothing from local bypass (bootstrapping) capacitors.

    In this case the rail are close to +- 100 volts. The capacitors were only 10,000 uf each rail. But in terms of joules of energy that is massive at that voltage and with an output stage that opens and closes like a barn gate there is no current limiting.

    A low impediance load is going to draw more current and the rails will dynamically change under transient load conditions as they are an unregulated supply. Hence you will see the lamps dim sometimes

    This is engineered into the design where the front end has high supply rejection and the rails are not designed to be stiff so as to offer a degree of SOA for the output stage rather than V/I limiting into low impediance loads. You can weld with those amps or run an electric motor.

    Massive open loop gain and equally massive negative feedback takes care of any distortion arising from non linear voltage fluctuations.

    Wow....! The VU lamp in my little noggin' went on.

  15. #15
    Senior Seņor boputnam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie View Post
    I know I never ran the amp past -5 dbV ever...
    Yea, but that's you.

    And, on 220/50Hz. :dont-know

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