frankensteins monitors

[demon]

hi again!

placing my horns on top of the 4435-cabinet leaves the low- and midfrequencies a far apart cluster.
though the crossoverpoint at 499Hz is rather low, i think this is a gap to avoid! i love coax-systems, because of their superior imaging, and what do i do? anticoaxing...(distance between woofer- and horn-center is ~1o5cm)...and the cluster gets even worse considering the subs are totally somewhere else.

"jesus what a clusterf_ck!"

so last week i put the cabinets on their sides and put woofer and horn close together:



sounds good, looks bad. what an abomination!
considering the fact that it didnt sound much better than before i changed it back after a few days. initially i wanted to build custom stands for the horns so they can go lower then with the original 25o6B brackets, but seeing the horns hovering over the cabinets as now, i dont want to loose this certain flair. so i choose image over the imaging:



well its true: i take most of my decisions on stereo like everyone else -based on looks!
anyway, the whole thing is fixed for now the way it is.
oh yeah i also swapped the subs back to left+right stereo, slightly behind the listening postion. generate the soundfield between them, not much leaving the room (eg. my kitchen is bass-free, and probably the neighbors too).

i always hesitate to post grafics from my measurments, because they are made in a live room and not gated. but anyway, today i made some and changed this and that, so here are the newest grafix (smoothing = 1/3):

the 236o is now running fullrange, starting at 499hertz (filter=LR24dB).
the top curve is the (left) 236o+245o without equalizing, the second curve is a test-EQ, the third curve is the actual EQ, wich is also on on the last two curves:




here is the (right) woofer, dooing what woofers do in a room (sweetspot=25ocm slightly off axis):
edit: this is a wider range than with actual in-system-cutoff, that would be: LR12@5oHz to LR24@499Hz)




here are my subs at listening position:
edit: actual cutoff in the system is LR12@5oHertz



i also made generous EQ tests via the inputsection of the crossover, to check different settings more easyly (smoothing = 1/1):



of course i dont want to spend my time listening to the warped curves, but for a quick comparison this might be good.

cheers,
mikey


ps: the filmstill i asked about in the last post is from >burn after reading< -hilarious quote repeated:

"jesus what a clusterf_ck!"

[demon]

hello!

nothing changed the last few weeks on my system except that i got a new audio-interface, the MOTU ultralight MK3 "hybrid", transporting my precious music from the harddrive to the crossovers (in 24BIT/96kHz).
it also acts as a >standalone< mixer, accepting digital and analogue inputs, very handy (thats why i bought it).

you can see it here:



cheers,
mikey

[lgvenable]

what is the current cabinet volume for the 2206? I see two ports, at what diameter and how long? Are the ends flush or rounded to improve airflow?

I;m doing the same thing, but with 2404H baby cheeks and a dbx driverack 260 to get correct time alignment withou having to move the horn forward.

Have you ever considered some of the direct radiated front loading bass reflex enclosures they have over at altec lansing pro, in combination with the horn and tweeter its a lot like a modded VOTT.
http://www.altecpro.com/products/vintage/index.htm

the only issue is nearly every bass horn is 84" tall!

[scott fitlin]

hello!

nothing changed the last few weeks on my system except that i got a new audio-interface, the MOTU ultralight MK3 "hybrid", transporting my precious music from the harddrive to the crossovers (in 24BIT/96kHz).
it also acts as a >standalone< mixer, accepting digital and analogue inputs, very handy (thats why i bought it).

you can see it here:



cheers,
mikey

How do you like the MOTU?

[demon]

what is the current cabinet volume for the 2206? I see two ports, at what diameter and how long? Are the ends flush or rounded to improve airflow?
...
Have you ever considered some of the direct radiated front loading bass reflex enclosures they have over at altec lansing pro, in combination with the horn and tweeter its a lot like a modded VOTT.
http://www.altecpro.com/products/vintage/index.htm

the only issue is nearly every bass horn is 84" tall!

the 2206 is currently NOT in use. i gave the cabinets away to friend, and erased all detailed memories concerning them -but i can look everything up somewhere if you really want. it was somerwhere close to 60 litres and most of the time i used the cabinets UNported.
user "aktivkampi" has the 2206, maybe he shares a secret or two: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...ad.php?t=26986 (also he got *nice* horns!)

anyhow i use my 4435 as woofers now, see the photo above, but im still a big fan of basshorns. some of my friends use klipschorns and tappedhorns and backloaded horns, and i like most of them! i also like the classic VOTT, for its a cool design, but for now, i got more than enough bass and the bins look cool too

How do you like the MOTU?

yo scott!
im rather dissapointed by now, because its just no fun to handle:
-the menus on the display are complicated without beeing very smart, and the software editor is fixed to a certain size (small) and some kind of design-surface. unnecessary un-clear. sigh.
-the knobs are so small and tightly squeezed together that its hard to use one without touching another by accident. they have to be pressed and turned for various functions, if the ultralight isnt on a rubbery surface it gets easyly pushed away...and after some time trying to handle the whole device i always find myself quite annoyed. its not easy to use, let alone inviting.
-most important: sound crackles OFTEN and the "monitor" mastervolume on the SPDIF-out reacts with short distorted noise when a certain setting on a muted out channel is changed. eg: i listen to smooth jazz in the night, monitor-volume is on -34dB and i want to change the analogue-out1+2 from "monitor-volume" to straight 0dB (for some reason) the SPDIF-out (-34dB) suddenly gives a nice shot of 0dB-noise. ZRAPP!!!
-built quality isnt very good either, its hard to connect a firewirecable AND a DCplug at the same time because its so close togehter it slightly bends the plugs....

uhm. you got me into a tirade with your question. any particular reason you asked me?
GOOD things about my MOTU are that it allows BOTH firewire and USB, that it delivers high resolution (up to 192kHz) and that it got 8 (=4stereo) analogue in and outs, as well as 2(=1stereo) SPDIFsis. all at the same time, with EQs available and 'verb and alot of other FX (i will never touch in my live).

cheers,
mikey

[demon]

good news!!



today a box made out of cardboard gave birth to a pair of gorgeous twins! im so happy!! look at these two little fellas:



i was wondering a LONG time about getting me some tiny speakers to backcheck mixes i do on the 'machine', and today i felt ready to get me another piece of ICONIC industrial design. i always loved the whole appearance, starting with the rubber inlays on the "cabinet", the rounded edges and simply the cute size! then, the face reminds me of edvard munch. finally, the sound: never really checked it out. but today i changed that, and i listen for some hours now in close nearfield, and what can i say: its probably the best smallest PA ive ever heard! SPL vs. size is simply unfair! and the frequency response appears ok too, so far. bass is lacking, but thats not so bad.

i compared them to a fostex backloaded horn a friend of mine gave me:



the fostex are great, and sound lively and easy, REALLY enjoyable. if this wouldnt be a JBLboard, id openly drool a little over them now.
but it is, and i better drool over the ctrl ones...wich deserve it of course. for their size, they deserve LOTS of drooling.



i listen to superdynamic techno (re: hayden) right now, and, granted there is no real bass coming out, they DO fill the listening position with most of what i need, and that is much more then i asked them for. imaging is easy, tonality is inconspicuous and percussion is perky
sounds good -im stunned here!



cheers,
mikey

[caladois]

I am testing this week the 2360 too. Nice image, no projection, smooth and details response. But you need more than 4 meters for a good fusion.

[demon]

hello stephane!

very nice looking speakers
-please tell me what you mean with "no projection", i dont understand it.

-4 meters for good fusion: sounds reasonable! only my flat isnt that big. im @2meters and i DO think the fusion is good enough. in fact, i dont miss a thing compared to a bookshelf monitor in a typical small studio (thats a reference i take very serious). also depends on the used filters in the XO, delay and phase settings.

although 2 meters isnt "classical nearfield", in the higher frequencies i have the FULL nearfield effect, thanks to the horn.

thanks for sharing your experience. hope to read more soon!

cheers,
mikey

[caladois]

By "no projection", I try to mean that the image always stay behind the horn (like on multicellular profile), and is never pushed on front of the horn.
There is space and air around the musicians. Voices are excellent.

The set up is a simple two way at the moment : JBL 2450 + JBL E145. I use the old but good JBL M553ex analog crossover. It work quiet nice, except for low and High End. But that's not a surprise.

I need to find a smaller amp with less gain than my actual 200w THRESHOLD !!!

[demon]

wait a second didnt you have these modern 43XX monitors?
do you want to change them, or are you just testing stuff?

i dont think the gain of the amp hasnt to do with the power.
i have PA amplifiers where i can reduce the gain with pots. thats handy.

cheers,
mikey

[caladois]

My Studio monitors are not on the market
What type of pro amp do you use ? I should get back a small AMCRON D45 with pots to match. Shouldn't I ? Most of my ampS do not have gain control.

[demon]

i cant post the name of my amps because they are so CHEAP its almost offensive to use them with my jbl gear.
the reason is that i honestly dont think that a proper built (solid state) amp can make audible difference to another proper built (ss) amp when used as intended.
(i attended some blindfolded tests)
i like overboarding power, solid built quality and good handling and cant waste alot of money (need four amps). thats why it had to be PA amps with HUGE transformers and lotsa WATTs. i reduced the coolerfan-rpm and dont waste a thought about them anymore.
theoretically i can get 6.9KW out of them but my flats fusebox wouldnt allow it...

whats the difference in your monitors vs. the DIY speakers. how do they both feel?
im interested!

cheers,
mikey

[Mr. Widget]

i cant post the name of my amps because they are so CHEAP its almost offensive to use them with my jbl gear.
the reason is that i honestly dont think that a proper built (solid state) amp can make audible difference to another proper built (ss) amp when used as intended.
(i attended some blindfolded tests)

You are not alone in that...

I don't buy into the nuanced and quite poetic amplifier descriptions that one reads in the audio press, but I do believe I have heard different levels of sonic crud or lack of same using different SS amps. Tube amps seem to be more influenced by the load and change more between model to model... and certainly not always for the better.


Widget

[caladois]

i cant post the name of my amps because they are so CHEAP its almost offensive to use them with my jbl gear.
the reason is that i honestly dont think that a proper built (solid state) amp can make audible difference to another proper built (ss) amp when used as intended.
(i attended some blindfolded tests)
i like overboarding power, solid built quality and good handling and cant waste alot of money (need four amps). thats why it had to be PA amps with HUGE transformers and lotsa WATTs. i reduced the coolerfan-rpm and dont waste a thought about them anymore.
theoretically i can get 6.9KW out of them but my flats fusebox wouldnt allow it...

whats the difference in your monitors vs. the DIY speakers. how do they both feel?
im interested!

cheers,
mikey

I have a second smaller JDF-Audio amp (2x100w) with adjustable gain. The system is now quiet : No audible noise at 1m50 from the horn. It work nice, but not as smooth and neutral as my 43XX.
The 43xx are perfect for low and mid level, but the 2360 invite me to push the volume up up and up. It really work.
I do not know if it's due to the sensibility, but the 2450+2360 are very sensible with the amplifier used. Between the TRHESHOLD and the JDF-AUDIO the image change a lot. Believe me !!!

May be the fact I now use the same type of amp for bass and mid-high is another reason...

JDF-AUDIO HQS2400 upm for bass (JBL E145-8 + BR Box 145 liters)
JDF-AUDIO HQS2100 upm for mid-high (JBL 2450h + 2360 horn)

I will try a small AMCRON D45 next week.

[demon]

hi stephane!

of course i believe everything you experience with the amps. most people have similar, and there must be a reason for that. i have read billions of threads on this topic on the german boards, and i choose a technical standpoint wich makes it very easy for me. but please lets not get into that here, its always a painful discussion
--------
but please tell us your XO freq. and -do you equalize the horn? because its not very flat as it is.
third picture here shows what i measured with my horns in my room (without gating).

im always eager to learn more about other peoples 236os

best--
mikey