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Thread: Project May, similar privat project?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Flodstroem's Avatar
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    Project May, similar privat project?

    Hello again

    Wander if there is anything preventing me to use the project "May" as a starting point/platform for may own new speaker project?

    I have planed to build some TL speaker, but when looking at, and reading about those interesting May-speakers, I have decided to try to build a similar speaker cabinets for my own pleasure (Ok, for my family to be honest). I dont now if there is some restrictions involved in this original project May, but you guys at the Lansing Heritage Forum must guide me if there is any.

    My intention is to build a speaker same as the project May cabinets but not fitted with same type of speaker components, I shall use what I have in stock.
    Regards
    Flodstroem

  2. #2
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    1) Premature. Wait for the project to be completed; the design is not final yet.

    2) The Project May design is specific to the particular components used. Other components will not necessarily "translate," and probably not well.

    3) Better approach is to detail your component set here and let the "Committee" guide you toward a similar design consistent with your objectives....

  3. #3
    Senior Member Flodstroem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch View Post
    1) Premature. Wait for the project to be completed; the design is not final yet.

    2) The Project May design is specific to the particular components used. Other components will not necessarily "translate," and probably not well.

    3) Better approach is to detail your component set here and let the "Committee" guide you toward a design....
    Thanks Zilch for your answer. My intention from the beginning was to built a TL-speaker (Transmission Line) , eg, two TL-speaker in one cabinet: one TL for the low bass(18-80 Hz, 2245H or 2215H) and one TL for the "high" bass (75-1200 Hz, 2012H). Also these cabinets should be equipped with midrange 2440/2380A (fitted with 2445 diaphragm) and the 2405 on top.

    I have been calculating those TL speaker for a while now by Martin King´s TL calculating sheets and was in the mood to start building them now (after several test boxes listen to). But those TL-speaker will be very large and the concept "project May" looks very attractive to me with respect to physical format including the fact I have listen to a pair of K2S 5800, and I liked the tight and fast dynamic response of that speaker model.

    My idea for this "May" like design is to try to build a very similar system but try to use the components that was intended for my TL design. I dont know if this is possible due to I was going to use active x-overs (4-way operation)

    If building a "May"-like product I would like to use same concept as the originals except for the components: 2 frequencies for bass, one for midrange and one for highs. Lower cabinets for the 2245H and upper cabinets for the 2215H, alternatively, the 2215H in lower and 2012H in upper cabinets. But,,,,,,,,,,,,,,this will be a decision based on what you guys ev. will be recommending me to do?
    regards,
    Flodstroem

  4. #4
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    You're talking "MTM."

    http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...ead.php?t=4157

    KICK his ass for deleting the pics....

  5. #5
    Senior Member Flodstroem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch View Post
    You're talking "MTM."

    http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...ead.php?t=4157

    KICK his ass for deleting the pics....
    Yes i´m talking "MTM", but not with similar speaker for bottom and top cabinets/boxes. Im talking of a lower bass at the bottom and a slightly higher at the top. 2445 in the middle also the 2405. One big difference would be the cabinet. Planning to build the lower cabinet to reach further up to the upper half cabinet and the 2445/2405 will be integrated in this box (for to get enough volume to the 2245H (or 2215H), and low enough f3 point. (18-20Hz) as in my TL speaker. 2215H/or 2012H would then be mounted in a rather small box because the low frequency f3 point will be as high as 80 to 90 Hz. It only requires a small box for the 80 to 1200 Hz response.
    My TL calculating has yield a straight frequency response between 85 and 1200 Hz. Maybe I shall use this box for my design?
    Ok, I would like to hear some comments to a project like this. Nothing has been done practical for this project, only for my TL projekt.
    Regards
    Flodstroem

  6. #6
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    If you want to go with an MTM why not go with a couple of 10's or 12's with the horn/2405 between them?? The 12's should work if you want to keep the 2245 down low say about 100Hz. Just a thought.

    Rob

    http://www.harman-japan.co.jp/produc...ome/s5800.html

  7. #7
    Senior Member Flodstroem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    If you want to go with an MTM why not go with a couple of 10's or 12's with the horn/2405 between them?? The 12's should work if you want to keep the 2245 down low say about 100Hz. Just a thought.

    Rob
    Rob,
    Maybe I better should use two 2215H for each cabinet (2 x 15") exactly as in the project May, but then use the 2445 and 2405 in between those two woofers. How would you estimate this project idea if comparing it with May?

    Also, do I gain any benefits or drawbacks if skipping the 2245H´s in this construction?

    Regards
    Flodstroem

  8. #8
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Hello Flodstroem

    You are going to be covering many of the same issues we discussed with Project May. We looked at it as a system that could be set-up to be flexible as far as the final configuration. There is a distinct advantage in going active as it makes system changes easier.

    What kind of bass extension are you looking for?? If you want the most low end bang for your buck I would consider 2234's and look into the 2 1/2 way approached used in the 4435 and Everest. This will give you the flexabillity of a set up that could be used as an MTM with similar low end performance to a pair of LE-15's or a 4435 base for your horn section. That 2234 woofer pair is a well founded proven design so you know that works and you already have the passive filter worked out for you. You could try Le-15's as the range is similar but you would have to look into cabinet size and tunings to see if you get a pair to work as well as the 2234's work. The Le-15's don't have the X-Max of the 2234's so you have to see how they look used this way.

    Back to cabinet size, setting up 15's in an MTM gives you a large enclosures by default. The 2245 needs big box to go low. If you have the room fine but you may be able to get the lowend your looking for without it depending on which drivers you choose. LE-15 may take a larger box compared to the 2234's so you need to look at this as well.

    Project May's set-up is modular with 2 woofer and one horn cabinet. If you want to use your 15's full range you stack as an MTM. Using it as a 2 1/2 way you stack the woofer boxes horn on top. This way you can try both and decide which you like better or just switch from time to time. Better get help doing the stacking . Send Mr. Widget a PM he did most of the testing and will be able to help you.

    Get a pair or 2435's off Ebay while they are still $200 a pop and put them asside. Sooner of later a suitable horn will show up or you can use a PT in the mean time. That will give you a Beo based compression driver that is the same as the 435 less aguaplas.

    Rob
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by Robh3606; 02-17-2007 at 11:03 AM. Reason: Added 2234/Le-15 comparison

  9. #9
    Senior Member Flodstroem's Avatar
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    Thanks Rod for your interesting and challenging answer

    I had to confess that size has no special priority than bass extension (but with project May I would probably re-consider it) .
    I would like to inform you that my first project chosen was a TL projekt and there I would have a bass extension down to ca 22-23 Hz (=f3) Looking at your calculated sheets in this thread I can se f3 will be as high as 40-45 Hz. This is not acceptable for me unless this calculation only was meant as a comparison between 2234H and the 2215H (LE-15A?)?

    Im aware of the x-max at the 2215, but in an TL this is not a problem due to the extremely low excursion at the f3 point (22-23Hz) , smaller than the frequencies above f3.

    But the physical format of the May speaker looks very attractive to me and this construction is similar physically if compared to my TL design (with only one 2215H, or 2245H for each cabinet). Also, the May speaker are nearly exactly as high as would mine be when finished (1.5 meter). The TL speaker was planned to be built with active, 4 way x-over. But its not a problem using the active x-over concept on a May design I guess?

    The (or my) benefit for to choose the May concept lays in the smaller cabinet dimension. Those speaker will better integrates in my audio/music room.

    Your suggestion for to use the 2234 (a 2235 without the mass-ring installed I guess?) is interestingly, but is this due to some similarity to the 1500Al or of any other reason?

    The idea of a modular speaker system has its benefits but for low bass, I dont know this is beneficially compared to one big box, whats yours thoughts about that?

    Only reason (-s) for to build a May speaker lays in the physical formats, modular concept and a more practical speaker if looking at the possibility to move it around in the room/house if one must. It could be a challenging project to build because of its high technical status (also popularity). Also one could probably calculate for a higher second hand value if for some reason going to sell this speaker in the future compared to an even bigger TL speaker, I only guess here.

    Regards
    Flodstroem

  10. #10
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    - These days, "asymetrical" MTMs are where it's at, IMHO .

    - The le14 and the le10 are a natural sonic fit ( blend ) with a 3" diaphragmed horn driver in between. A very nice Legacy Lansing system used in a modern arrangement . The le10 is in a sealed enclosure .

    - Scaled up to a 18" for the bottom / the top driver becomes a 12" . From a proper voicing perspective; one is looking for either a 12" with an underhung voice coil ( really - not many of those around ) or a deep gap type with an aquaplased cone.
    - This much area in paper cone needs to be balanced against a 4" diaphragmed compresson driver driving the HF horn .

    - The sensitivities of the 18" and the 12" ( or 14" & 10" ) need to be matched ( or balanced ) to within 2 db of each other ( more or less ) .




    I have a hectic work week / so don't expect me to react to questions for some time .

  11. #11
    Super Moderator yggdrasil's Avatar
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    If you are going to use the stock components, you could build an asymmetric project may with the 2215 at the bottom and the 2012 at the top. Let the 2215 roll off above ~500Hz and the 2012 could roll off below ~200Hz.

    Then use the 2245's in additional transmission lines for real low frequency output.

    It would mean a 5-way or 4 1/2-way, but... With the drivers you have, the physical dimensions of the project may will not give you the lowest frequencies.
    Johnny Haugen Sørgård

  12. #12
    Senior Member Flodstroem's Avatar
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    Frequency response for May speaker?

    Does it exist some plots for the bass cabinets for the May speaker? What is the frequency response for those speaker (horn and HF not important). Couldnt find any when searching the May-forum.
    Could be interesting to see now when I have declared I would like to build a pair (but I havent promissed that.....yet )
    Regards
    Flodstroem

  13. #13
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    F3 of 40hz-50hz is what I would shoot for every time. Experience tells me that designs with F3 below 30hz are a nightmare to integrate with room gain, and wasteful of power.

    With a capable 15" drive unit, such as the 1500AL or similar, a little EQ at the bottom end to suit your room will provide more than adequate bass response in my experience. I wouldn't write off a design because of it's relatively high F3 point. You would miss out on a huge percentage of JBL's finest output.

  14. #14
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Hello Flodstroem

    You need to know where to look. Try the Project May Blog

    http://www.audioheritage.org/html/pr...og/2004-08.htm


    I suggested the 2234 because of the similarity too the Le-15. The curves are up so you can see how close they are and it looks like an Le-15 could work in a similas configuration as a 4435. If you are doing transmission lines that's a whole other kettle of fish. I like well tuned reflex cabinets but should try a TL to see how they are.


    Rob

  15. #15
    Senior Member Flodstroem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606 View Post
    Hello Flodstroem
    You need to know where to look. Try the Project May Blog
    http://www.audioheritage.org/html/pr...og/2004-08.htm
    I suggested the 2234 because of the similarity too the Le-15. The curves are up so you can see how close they are and it looks like an Le-15 could work in a similas configuration as a 4435. If you are doing transmission lines that's a whole other kettle of fish. I like well tuned reflex cabinets but should try a TL to see how they are.
    Rob
    Thanks Robh and merlin for your information.
    Regarding "the whole other kettel of fish", my TL speaker design project, I must admit that this projekt is more like a kombination of ported box and TL design actually called ML-TQWT, Mass Loaded Tapered Quarter Wavelength Tube (a Martin J. King design). I have built a smaller version for an 2115A (pro LE8) and its amazingly good and clear sounding. I have also built a midrange proto for the 2012H that Im not sure of yet ( to week materials could be)
    The great benefit for such design is the lack of "box" resonances (no box sounding due to heavy damping), low distortion and high output. The frequency roll of at low bass cut is much smother, 6 dB better than for a ported box (eg. bass reflex design). Thus it will give plenty of bass extension below f3 point and the speaker will never be as unloaded at tuning point as in a reflex design.

    Yes there is drawbacks due to the design is fundamentally a quarter wavelength design and it demands length of the "Tube" if wanting good low frequency response. Ok, you could make it bent 180 degrees in the middle (and get half the total lengths of finished speaker) as in my case, but even though, it will be big if your intention is to keep VLF.

    So this is what Im dealing with, cant make up my mind. The May projekt (eg. an MTM speaker) has many benefits if comparing to my TL-design but the bass response, hummmmm I dont know.
    Im not any experienced in audio measurements technically but I can use calculation sheets or programs for this project. When I get the opportunity I would like to post some plots in this threads later when I have bought a used PC including Windows (Phu..., Im a Mac-man and PC is a heck of a virus collector). or should I buy Virtual PC for Mac instead? But this is another story.
    Regards
    Flodstroem

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