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Thread: Liquid tin vs. just-add-water tin

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    Liquid tin vs. just-add-water tin

    Anybody got any thoughts about the relative advantages/merits/etc. of liquid tin (if it can be purchased by an individual) and the just-add-water type of tin such as that sold by Parts Express? Can either of them be used to tin wire before crimping or are they only good for doing boards? Any brands better than others?

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    ??????????????????????

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thom
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    versus


    TINNIT TIN PLATE TinnitTM will plate a copper clad board with a bright tin plate approximately .0004" thick. Enhances solderability. Supplied as a dry concentrate, just add water to make one pint of solution that will plate up to 600 sq. inches of copper. After being mixed, solution has approximately a 2 month life.

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    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Can either of them be used to tin wire before crimping or are they only good for doing boards?
    Why would you Tin before crimping???

    Rob

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    Senior Member Ducatista47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606
    Why would you Tin before crimping???

    Rob
    Silver solder.

    Clark in Peoria
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    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    The "Tin before crimping," first of my quotes, comes from experiencing stranded wires falling out of crimp-on connectors, a clear indication of a marginal connection.

    Unless done precisely with a proper circumferential crimping tool, the connections are unreliable. The individual strands of copper wire are also more subject to corrosion over time.

    Thus, I always "tin" the lead ends, i.e., apply solder to them, to make a solid wire end for insertion into a connector before crimping.

    Same with all of the speaker cable ends floating around here for insertion into binding posts and screw terminals - they're all "tinned"....

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    Senior Member Ducatista47's Avatar
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    Good thoughts, Zilch. When my late Father taught me to use a soldering iron when I was five, I think tinning wire ends was the first thing he showed me. To this day I tend to tin a wire or cable as soon as I cut it to length or even strip an end. It just doesn't seem right to let bright copper turn dull in the atmosphere.

    I know that some audio connectors should not be used with solder, but I solve that by using predominately spade lugs, the largest that will fit.

    Clark
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    You would be surprised at the insertion losses mutiple crimp/spade connections introduce. Why you digest that ask yourself what is the male and female spade made out of and how is it finished??

    Clean and tin both surfaces and apply liberal heat to the joint. Wire wap if desired.

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    OK, if I can use solder to "tin" before crimping and silver solder is preferrable, does one use silver solder paste or silver solder wire? If wire, 4% or 2% silver content?

    And relative to the material from which spade and ring terminals are constructed, I take it tinned copper might be acceptable. Is there any "best" brand and if so, where can I find them. The only ones I can find with the construction components listed as such are sold for marine use. I can't help but think that the everyday ones I get at the hardware store () are aluminum. Would gold plated ones sold for automotive use be better?

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    Senior Member Ducatista47's Avatar
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    I use a high purity (or oxygen "free") copper lugs. My hi-fi shop has a variety of sizes loose in a plastic tray organizer, I'll have to ask what brand. It makes sense to me to use lugs as good as the wire you connect them to, so that might inform your decision.

    For solder, again I use what they carry in the shop - what I can buy here! I've seen it on the web, but for more money. It is WBT, 4% fine silver, from Essen, Germany. You generally can't go wrong with German technology and craftsmanship. It is a slim wire, 0.8mm, that disappears with frightening speed when being applied to a joint.

    Sometimes I wonder if 4% silver can make any difference to conductivity. Perhaps I had more money than brains the day I bought it.

    Edit: Ever notice how much you can pay for an RCA connector? The designs and materials keep coming, all to overcome the fact that RCA plugs were never designed for critical audio use. In two words, they stink. That's why I use lugs. Large contact area, great materials available, easy to clean the surfaces, indestructible, tighten to your heart's content. The contact does not rely on the complex yet dubious design and execution of the RCA's circular crimp design, which crimps less with time and use anyway. RCA's are also inherently weak mechanically, as there are insulators between the metal parts. It is a lot cheaper to manufacture a great lug than a more complex design of termination, which is to say all the other systems.

    The one good thing about the 5235 xover is the use of terminal strips instead of RCA inputs. Too bad there is probably steel in the line somewhere. Even high end gear seems to have RCA inputs.

    Clark in Peoria
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    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    The "Tin before crimping," first of my quotes, comes from experiencing stranded wires falling out of crimp-on connectors, a clear indication of a marginal connection.
    Hello Zilch

    That's why you need the correct tooling. I have tried crimps using the inexpensive tools and they simply are not that reliable. They don't fixture the spades so you crimp the correct areas and there is no stop to prevent over crimping where you actually cut the wires. You really are not supposed to tin wires that are crimped. Done correctly it's gas tight connection. Me I solder no issues at all that way.

    Rob

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    Senior Member Ducatista47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606
    Hello Zilch

    Done correctly it's gas tight connection.
    Rob
    For better or worse, I use Kimber wire. When you are finished joining all the strands I doubt the bundle is a perfect standard gauge. I can assure you that forming it into a perfectly round entity is usually beyond me! Don't the lug and crimp tool have to be an exact match with the wire gauge to form a gas tight connection?

    Clark
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    The gas-tight connection occurs at the point of contact between the connector and the individual strands, where the pressure between them is high.

    Ever see a wirewrap connection appear to be "welded" at the post corners? That's a gas-tignt connection.

    I'm with Rob. I just can't do it to my satisfaction with simple crimp tools, and end up soldering typically. The tinning makes THAT an easy go....

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    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Hello Clark

    If you look at most crimped connectors the barrels that accept the stranded wire are set-up to use a predetermined wire gage range of say 18-22 gage as an example. That way when you use the crimping tool for that barrel size it compresses the connector around the wire and you end up with a gas tight connection. Most crimping tools only compress the middle portion of the barrel so the wire is crimped only in this area. Most of the wire gage ranges for the crimped barrels are only a couple of gages. We may end up using 2-3 barrel sizes and multiple crimping tools in a single connector depending on the wire gages used in the harness where I work. We actually do destruct pull test samples of crimps and the wire is the what fails. When done right they make a very strong and reliable connection.

    Rob

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    OK this must be simular to what some people paint on the joining sections of copper buss only that is usually silver. As to solder or crimp. Theoreticly you can get the best connection with a crimp,( but I like to solder, unless you're on the clock.) However the wire, connector and tool should all be made to be used together. How often does that happen? As soon as your conector says wire gage xx to xx your sunk. If you can actualy get the strands tinned that probably makes for a better crimp. We have already given up on that ideal crimp. If you open an expensive piece of gear and find crimps,in the manufacturing enviroment they may very well be using what it takes to make ideal (thats ideal with a small i)crimps. Tinning the entire group of strands before crimping is a bad idea. It keeps the conductor from flowing properly into the crimp. Thomas & Betts and Panduit are a couple of the better brands but they make different levels of quality also. It used to be that if the insulator was nylon as opposed to pvc that was a quality connector. Not anymore. Solid wire is very difficult to make good crimps to and tinning a lead is definitly in that direction. If you have to be careful when crimping to make sure the conmnector krimps correctly insted of rolling in the tool and one part overlapping the other that is a junk terminal. Reps from most of the better companys have sampler crimped connections that have been cut across and you can't see the individual strands. But most field crimp connections are not like that. Probably your best connection would be to crimp with a hi temp connector and then solder. If you dont use a hi temp connector there is some chance that when you are through soldering the crimp will have lost it's strength, but you will still have a solder connection. If your going to solder, make note of the temperature. Don't solder in light fixtures, to power resisters, etc. I would keep anything with a water base away from stranded wire. The principle has to be that the tin is extremly fine and when the water goes away you still have tin. Well with capillary action you will probably get water places you don't get tin.

    The really good connections are more often refered to as compression than crimp.

    In summation: don't use anything that has water or any thing else that may damage copper near the end of stranded wire. Capillary action will carry the liquid well up into the wire where it will not dry but will damage the wire.

    Unless you're using a lot of them, are in a bad enviroment (I don't mean high crime) or your current to voltage ratio is high a pretty good crimp is probably good enough.

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