250ti Classic Does not rock!

[AdamimAdam]

Ok so ive only owned these speakers for 1 month, I quickly bought a Hafler DH500 with 250w per chan. along with a kinergetics chiro c-800 for a preamp. The highs and mids are amazing, the lows are rumble???? but they sure dont shake anything, Id venture to say I get more Sound Preasure from the snare drums over the mids then I do the LE14h-1's. I tried wiring them opposite -/+ to no avail and no real difference really. One is refoamed nicely the other nearly ready for it. From all I have read they arent supposed to be boomy and Im new to the audiophile game but shouldnt they shake me a little?

[JuniorJBL]

Sounds like room or placement issues. What is the size of your room and where are your speakes placed?

You can also do a search for placement and see what some of the other members have done.

[Robh3606]

I use LE-14A's as subs. The H's are even better and I can rattle my fillings loose with them with the right program material. They do just fine so something is up. Placement as well as phase are the most likely culprits.

Rob

[GordonW]

Hafler DH500 is definitely not my choice for an amp for these. IMHO, the DH500 and P500 have "emaciated" power supplies... incapable of the current output that a LE14H-1 needs, to do bass well. I've even seen small HK integrated amps spank Hafler DH500s, on high-current-draw situations... the Hafler would just "lose it" on bottom, while a little 50w/ch HK amp would just "pound away"...

My suggestion? A beefier amp, such as an Aragon 4004 or 8008, Harman-Kardon Citation 22, NAD 218THX, Crown DC300A, or the like. Then, watch the pictures rattle on the walls...

Regards,
Gordon.

[AdamimAdam]

Hafler DH500 is definitely not my choice for an amp for these. IMHO, the DH500 and P500 have "emaciated" power supplies... incapable of the current output that a LE14H-1 needs, to do bass well. I've even seen small HK integrated amps spank Hafler DH500s, on high-current-draw situations... the Hafler would just "lose it" on bottom, while a little 50w/ch HK amp would just "pound away"...

My suggestion? A beefier amp, such as an Aragon 4004 or 8008, Harman-Kardon Citation 22, NAD 218THX, Crown DC300A, or the like. Then, watch the pictures rattle on the walls...

Regards,
Gordon.

Thats the answer I was looking for!!! Shoot I wanted a Nad218THX but decided not to wait around for it. Back to the Ebayboard, dont tell the wife, thanx for being such a smart feller

[remusr]

AdmimAdam - I found major improvement with room placement (moved them within a couple feet of a back wall) and better wire (min 14AWG pure copper with good plugs or big QED, etc audiophile wire), upgrading my preamp from the HaflerDH110 to Mac and getting a better CD player (ie a mid/hi-end CD player will sound cleaner and beefier than a $200 Technics carousel or a JVC DVD player).

GordonW - I have several DH500's and Transnova 9505's. I can't say any of them lack bass grunt with L300's, 4430's, 4435's but in any case this seems only evident at max power, -3dB and above. I do prefer my Mac MC352 as it is noticeably cleaner/solider than the DH500 but isn't a huge diff exept on my L100T's which admittedly are bass-shy with the DH. May be speaker-interactive thing as well as room placement.
**BTW, Musical Concepts (on internet) has major mods to upgrade DH500/600 amps' power supplies with dual toroids and replacement driver boards, gold RCA's, big power cable, etc. I think cost is from $300-$1100/amp for the basic - full kit. Heard any?

[GordonW]

DH500/P500s sound fine with decent size transformers and cap banks in them. That's the weak link... the original "iron" just isn't up to the demands of low-impedence (or low-Qes) loads...

The TransNova is a horse of a different color- that's a Jim Strickland (of Acoustat) design. SERIOUS cohones in those amps.

Regards,
Gordon.

[doodlebug]

**BTW, Musical Concepts (on internet) has major mods to upgrade DH500/600 amps' power supplies with dual toroids and replacement driver boards, gold RCA's, big power cable, etc. I think cost is from $300-$1100/amp for the basic - full kit. Heard any?

I have upgraded a number of DH-200/220 amps with Musical Concepts driver boards and power supplies and can confirm they are well worth the effort - especially if the owner does the work. My last ones were done about 6 years ago using their 3rd generation boards. I believe there's been one major revision since then.

I can confirm that the old Hafler stuff will benefit from just the new power supply components as well as the rewiring they require. The grounding scheme is improved as well. Just be sure to upgrade the RCA connectors and the speaker connectors while you're in there.

While these mods will not stand up to a well-restored Mac tube amp/HK Citation II, they will easily hold their own with many $2-3000 amps, IMHO. BTW, even though I run the above tube amps, I still keep my 2 Hafler/Musical Concepts amps after all these years.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,

David

[pasadena]

Thats the answer I was looking for!!! Shoot I wanted a Nad218THX but decided not to wait around for it. Back to the Ebayboard, dont tell the wife, thanx for being such a smart feller

If you're going to go as far as buying a NAD 218THX go the step further and source it's big brother the NAD 208THX. I currently own a NAD 208THX and IMHO it's a great amp, considering a lot people give it the flick. I've listened to B&W 801's through a Rotel RB-1090 and the NAD is still better. To everyone's taste though. I was using it to run my pair of B&W 801 MAtrix Series 3 speakers and these speakers are very difficult to drive and the 208THX handle them with ease. Great amp.

Below is a product review of the NAD 218THX - December 1996 by Daniel Long. Link to review http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_3_4/v3n4l.html

In his review, he compares the NAD 218THX against its big brother the NAD 208THX and you can make up your mind which would better suit your needs.

If you're going to spend the money to get a 218, pay the bit extra and get a 208, you won't be sorry.....Believe me!!! AND, when you start talking about bridging, the NAD 208THX will leave a lot of amps in the dust. Read the specs on the 208THX in bridged mode and you will be astounded. I believe that NAD never released an amp that bettered the 208THX. Pitty I must add. I would have loved to have seen 3 or 5 way version of the 208THX.

You get two 208's and you will be in heaven AND you will violently shake everything around you. This is your fix.

See if you can get one auditioned in your home, the only way to know.

Cheers
Pasadena.

[GordonW]

My recommendation of the 218THX, came from my experience running 250Ti's from the HK Citation 22, which is rated at 200w/ch. Seemed to have plenty of power. Wouldn't mind a 208 at all, but the 225w/ch of the 218THX should be enough, IME...

Regards,
Gordon.

[Edwards]

I had a pair of these about 12-15 years back. They worked very, very, very well in a very large room with 9 foot ceilings, 18 inches from the back wall, thick carpet, large drapes, I was driving it with a Krell 50 watt per. The sound was unbelievable! it had dimension, it had dynamics, it had subtlety, it had it all.

I moved and had to put them in a much smaller room with a 7.5 foot height ceiling, concrete floor and they sounded terrible. The room was too small, the sound was flat, I had to sell them.

I used to listen to the Kinergetics line at the CES shows each year and personally I thought that the product was never rated by the press as well as it sounded in real life. So I doubt that it could be you pre-amp, but you may want to borrow an amp from a friend or a local retailer, and definitely check the condition and age of your interconnect.

(This is from someone that has moved 4 times and owned 10 pairs of Speakers) Speakers are designed to work well within a given room size. Just because a speaker is large or expensive does not mean that it will sound good.

If your room is not of sufficient size, either look at another pair of speakers, or move.

Best wishes - Ed