I'm thinking size maybe really does matter!?

[Titanium Dome]

I don't agree with some of the statements above.

A little suggested reading on setting amplifier gain controls.

http://www.rane.com/note135.html

IMHO:
When using digital components it is suggested to use maximum levels in the pre-amp/active crossovers and set the amps accordingly.

Setting up my system gain structure as decribed in this tech note lowered the noise floor considerably. My tweeters had alot of hiss before and none is perceptable now.

An amplifier will provide rated output at a given input voltage where ever the antenuators are positioned.

From the Rane note cited:

Information contained in this work has been obtained by Rane Corporation from sources believed to be reliable. However, neither Rane nor its author guarantees the accuracy or completeness of any information published herein and neither Rane nor its author shall be responsible for any errors, omissions, or damages arising out of use of this information.

I'm not ragging on Rane per se. Rather, maybe we should all put this at the end of every bit of advice we give.

If I had some Rane equipment, I'd follow their advice on how to set it up. Since I don't, I'll follow the advice of the manufacturers of the equipment I have.

Anyway, we're kind of off track here. The original message I made was to say different amps, different rooms, different sources = different sound.

[BMWCCA]

YES, it is...You will hear things with a D130 that nothing can come close to... I know I've been listening and comparing "new Speakers" to some C35's for almost 50 years.
<SNIP>
Now let me clarify what I mean, yes, you will hear things on those speakers in a manner than nothing else can come close to. The sound is bigger than life and the D-130 working thru the bass, midbass and lower midrange...shows it's stuff...
One thing the D-130 does that nothing else can do as well.. it projects a hugh sound stage where everything sounds "right there"...and that pulls you into the music with full emotion.
<SNIP>
The old speakers are super great toe-tappers and are great for experiencing the emotional side of music....me and my friends are still surprised when we fire up those old babies.

Thanks for expressing my feelings in a much more articulate manner. That's exactly what I experience with the D130/075 combination in the big boxes. I suppose you and I might agree: "Size does matter!"

As for the amp input controls, at the direction of a member of the Crown forums, I searched under the key words "gain structure" and found this reference from David Glass of the Crown technical staff, FWIW:

Now…… if you turn the input level controls down…. Yes…. it will take a larger input signal to get to full output because the input signal is being attenuated but the gain of the amplifier hasn’t changed[,] only the amount of signal getting to the amplifier.
Think of the input level controls as being the same thing as if you had an external level control before the amplifier (and the amp had no level controls).
..... By being able to drive the mixer hotter you will get the best signal to noise ratio from the mixer and if you don’t need it that loud in a room [then] you can turn down the amp and still maintain the S/N of the mixer.

[spkrman57]

Check out my future system below in my signature block.

I had recones to E140's reconed to E-130's with paper dustcaps(2235).

They are similiar to 2225's in my Edgarhorns.

Efficiency and smooth sound, in a 2.5 cubic ft box no less. Much smaller than horns!

Nice small cabinet.

Ron

[BMWCCA]

Here's a current answer to my inquiry on this topic (not really related to th original question about 030/C37 sound quality anymore, but...) from David Glass of Crown Audio:

...If you need more system level turn up the amp and you will have it. Running it the other way you will max out the amp and have to do all sorts of level changes and input gain adjustment to get more from the system.

This is why amplifiers have volume controls and why it is best to set the mixer and preceding gear to be hitting 0VU at the maximum you would be running the system. Then turn the amp up for as loud as you need it for the room.

When working with a non-metered Preamp, 3/4 of the way up on the preamp output is a good place to start as this is usually about the nominal output.

So, you maximize the S/N of your input device and set the power amp accordingly. Pretty much what I've been doing for the past 32 years with my Crowns.
Thanks to everyone for their input. A day shouldn't go by that we don't learn something. If it does, it's our fault for not asking the right questions.

[Steve Schell]

JBLnsince1959, your comments about the D-130 made me smile. Having been designed in 1946, it pretty much predates the concept of adding driver moving moving mass to achieve low bass in a small box. Most decisions in speaker design involve gains and losses. Adding mass to a cone will lower the resonance, but some degree of subtlety is lost in its sound as it struggles to drag all the mass along while tracking the ever-changing signal. Of course a thicker cone will play louder before the onset of breakup, another reason why modern speakers have heavier cones.

This is the sort of thing that is not necessarily revealed by measurements, and some theorists will argue that added mass should make no difference below the mass break point. Our ears tell the tale, though. D-130s, especially the earliest ones, have very thin cones driven by a strong motor. Your description of the huge soundstage and everything sounding like it is right there indicate that your speakers are rendering the low level, microvolt signals well. People often describe vintage field coil speakers the same way.

A D-130 will sound snarly and unpleasant to me if it is run too high in frequency. I think this is mostly the aluminum center dome misbehaving. Maybe what we need are D-130s fitted with beryllium domes! Anyway, crossed over at 1.2kHz. or lower, it is hard to beat in the ways that matter to me.

[scott fitlin]

Well, I have many different woofers for my system. The newer JBL 2226,s and TAD 1603,s will give you a stronger bass response, but, I always return to my favorite Altec woofers.

With the heavier cone woofers, the bass kick is great, but I lose the inner detail of the music, and the lower mids are less prominent, something I find unacceptable, and cannot live with. Doesnt mean the newer woofers dont work, just that I prefer the toe tapping, fast snappy sound, and hearing all the music like its right there in front of me being played live via my Altec 15in woofers.

Big boxes, and very efficient woofers, because to me, IT aint all about watts.

[Thom]

I couldn't believe my eyes when I read this thread. I thought I'd throw in what I'll readily admit is a personal opinion that the D140 (K,E) might just be the best compromise. I realise that anything I might say in favor of the 130 Will bring out people who haven't posted yet (music is supposed to be exiting isn't it?) I just went to a hell of a show this weekend in speedway meadows in goldengate park and there wasn't any vintage JBL (vintage stars, Hot Tuna, Bob Wier many many others ) and the sound suffered for it. Now that I've probably revitalized all of the "I hate D130" crowd that missed the first part of this, I won't change any minds here either as it appears that there are too schools of thought here each who don't understand why the other "just don't get it".
Power amps have input level controls on them to make them more flexible.Most power amps will work with most preamps with with the level controls in a variety of posistions including wide open. Most is not all. Also you might want to run more than one power amp from a preamp and the level controls give you the ability to adjust them reletive to one another. Other wise you are probably best adjusting them for the least noise. If your preamp has a ceartain level of noise that is the same regardless of the preamp gain setting then the lower you run the gain on your power amp the lower that noise will be in your speakers. (you all have noise it's just a matter of whether or not it's enough to hear or not. Equipment placement might come into play here also. If your preamp is 40 feet from your power amp thats 40 feet of lead to pick up noise before your power amp and you might want to run your power amp gain as low as possible. And it is just the gain or multiplication if you will not the output that you are turrning down. The fourty foot leads are also a good place for interconnects where both signal carrying conductors are inside the shield and the shield is grounded only on the source end so that current cannot flow through the shield. Any way, black and white answers would be so much easier for us to understand but it's a colour world.

[JBLnsince1959]

Maybe what we need are D-130s fitted with beryllium domes! .

Great idea...Brilliant!!!! Yes, wouldn't it be great if they would do some research and use the best of the old as you described and use new materials.

Adding mass to a cone will lower the resonance, but some degree of subtlety is lost in its sound as it struggles to drag all the mass along while tracking the ever-changing signal. Of course a thicker cone will play louder before the onset of breakup, another reason why modern speakers have heavier cones.

Our ears tell the tale, though. D-130s, especially the earliest ones, have very thin cones driven by a strong motor. Your description of the huge soundstage and everything sounding like it is right there indicate that your speakers are rendering the low level, microvolt signals well. People often describe vintage field coil speakers the same way.

.

My dad bought his first one around 1955 and then another one around 1957 or 1958 so he could play that new thing called stereo ...All the old transducers are stored away and I only play them about once a year with his old MAC Stuff. I'm sure both D-130's have the narrow gap and I'll never be able to recone them, so I'm very careful. Yes, there's nothing like the high efficiency, low mass, powerful motor big puppies..I still love them and yes, our ears do tell the tale. I use two Cd's to "educate" my audiophile friends...first CD is Pink Floyds' "A Momentary Lapse of Reason" "To the Unkown Man" ( first song); the sound of the paddles hitting the water and when the multiple low voices come in...everyone says..I never heard THAT before. The second CD is Duke Ellington - Newport News...this one is for just shear emotion and people get up and start dancing!!!

I've done side by side A/B comparions of one C-35 with the old ( D-130 etc) and the other C-35with the new stuff ( E-130 etc) and the D-130 sounds sooooo much better.

anyway, I love the sound..nothing like it....sounds like you and I certainly agree...Thanks for the post....
PS - love that avatar

[scott fitlin]

Indeed, I always find myself NOT being able to " modernize " because I lose something soooo desirable that I get with that older High Efficiency stuff. And the transient repsonse is scary.

I was playing Ella Fitgerald and Louis Armstrong-Summertime, from the Porgy and Bess CD, you hear his horn and her voice so vividly, and so effortlessly, WITHOUT having to push the system, it does something I havent been able to achieve with newer audio gear.

And the Pink Floyd-The Wall CD sounds incredible in my place.

[JBLnsince1959]

And the Pink Floyd-The Wall CD sounds incredible in my place.

yes....

[Storm]

And the Pink Floyd-The Wall CD sounds incredible in my place.


Same here! Love that CD - play it at least 1 time a day...just love the bass, INCREDIBLE!

[scott fitlin]

yes....

The thing is, last evening we were open, Jewish holiday, the Orthodox come out, and give their kids a good time at Coney Island, and while the Porgy and Bess CD was playing, and it was towards the end of the day, this guy walks in, carrying a trumpet case. Im watching him just listening. When the song ended, "I got Plenty Of Nothing" is what was playing, I asked him what he thought.

He said he was on his way to the train station to go to a gig in Manhattan, and he walked in because it sounded like someone was playing in here, not a CD, but he thought I had a band in here playing!

A better compliment I couldnt ask for, and from a musician!

[Ken Pachkowsky]

Thom

I can only speak for myself but admit for 30+ years I believed the gains on an amp were to be on high unless powering up or down. I never questioned it. After reading the replies, it makes perfect sense that the gains pots can be adjusted.

Ken

[MJC]

And the Pink Floyd-The Wall CD sounds incredible in my place.


Same here! Love that CD - play it at least 1 time a day...just love the bass, INCREDIBLE!

I think the analog version(lp) would be better. Any music sounds better in analog than its cd counterpart. DVD-audio, well, that's a different thing altogether.

[scott fitlin]

I think the analog version(lp) would be better. Any music sounds better in analog than its cd counterpart. DVD-audio, well, that's a different thing altogether.

You are right, but I didnt have the album on vinyl in my cases at work. So, I have the CD, and it does work. I also run a piece that uses a 12AX7A vacuum tube in here, does WONDERS for CD,s!

But, yes, the vinyl still does sound even better!