Seeking subwoofer recommendations to pair with XPL200's.

Hello everybody!

I've been enjoying my XPL200's for quite some time now, but I am looking for a subwoofer to help ease the burden on the 2214H's, they aren't happy trying to reproduce low stuff at higher SPL's. I tried to mitigate that by swapping out my Ashly XR1000 for an XR2001 and while that will do the trick if I set the crossover point high enough, (Using slope of -6dB @ 45hz) the result is unsatisfactory low end performance at lower volumes. So I'm looking to find a passive subwoofer to compliment them (Intend to drive subwoofer(s) with a Crown K1). Ideally, it would be marvelous if I could find a JBL product to match them aesthetically and/or acoustically, but budget is also a factor. Didn't Rythmik make passive subwoofers? Velodyne SC-15? What about JBL professional gear? I started to look through the catalog from 1998 here http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/...s/1998-pro.htm and came across the MR918. Although I think that's too big, I'd like a 12 or a 15" in there. Also, the inputs look strange to me- how does one connect something like the MR918 to a "home" amplifier? What recommendations do you guys have?

Gear used:

Current:
Adcom GFP-555 Preamp
Ashly XR2001 Crossover
Carver TFM-55x Amplifier (Highs/mids on XPL's)
Crown K1 Amplifier (Lows on XPL's)


Proposed:
Adcom GFP-555 Preamp
Ashly XR2001 Crossover
Carver TFM-55x Amplifier (Highs/mids on XPL's)
Crown K1 Amplifier (Midbass (2214H on XPL's)
Crown K1 Amplifier (Lows on external sub)


Thank you for taking the time to read this and for your input.

Do the crowns have DSP?? If they do you could build or purchase a B380. That's a single 2235 in 4.5?? Cubic ft tuned to 26 Hz. You would need a BX-63 to add the +6Db Q2 boost filter or use DSP in the Crowns. That is the correct time period.


http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/...-b380-b460.htm

Rob :)

The Crown K series do not have any processing on board. They make super good moderately powerful sub amps.

I’m guessing you don’t want to DIY a sub?

Barry.

A B380 is out of my price range, I think. Can't remember the last time I saw one and yeah, they're usually without the BX-63 dealio. +6dB Q2 filter? Please help me with my ignorance, what's Q2? Would I need some sort of DSP if I went with any type of passive sub? I'm not really a fan of DIY beyond car repair. I have zero woodworking skills or tools, so just looking to pick something up and go. The passive route seems ideal to me as I already have a spare K1 on hand and those are considerably cheaper. I am a fan of the Crown K series for low range duties, was very impressed with it and especially for the money. I think the K1 sounds better than K2 down low, based on my testing and despite the power advantage the K2 has over the K1.

So, what passive subs have you guys played with or heard? Any you'd recommend? I was running twin M&K MX-350THX's (Back when I was using my L150A's in my hi-fi set-up) until the subwoofers for the HT set-up died. Then they moved to fill that role and wow, major improvement over the muddy & bloated JBL 250P's. So if I bought a powered sub, I think I'd be inclined to go for more of those. However, they seemed more on par with home theater duties than musical duties. I really didn't care for all the extra low end. For classic rock stuff, not much of a difference, but when modern stuff came on, meh. So up until recently, I didn't miss the subwoofers.

Speaking of M&K subwoofers, the M&K "Volkswoofer" has quite consistently garnered decent reviews for it's musicality ( which I assume means it faithfully tracks the music and is not just a bloated 1-note bass generator ).

Google "Volkswoofer"

:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat

Q2? Would I need some sort of DSP if I went with any type of passive sub?

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Virtually all true subwoofers as opposed to woofers require some form of frequency optimization. This can be via an active or passive analog network or a DSP.

"Q" refers to the width of a filter's cut or boost frequencies. A "Q" of 0.1 is a very narrow band of frequencies where as a "Q" of 2 is a much broader range of frequencies. With a parametric EQ whether DSP or analog you can dial in the Q as well as the center frequency and the amount of boost or cut.


Widget

Derek.

Research the ( discontinued ) Synthesis 3S3 subwoofer. It's passive and uses the well regarded le120h (12" ) woofer that's found in the L7 .

https://www.audioheritage.org/vbulle...1&d=1329323297

From this thread!

:)

As Mr. Widget replied that is the filter used in the BX-63 and that can easily be duplicated using DSP. I have a crown amp for my HT subs and use the exact same filter using DSP.

If you are using the Ashley as you crossover might just be easier to use an active subwoofer with the Ashley driving the LFE input depending on the sub.

Here is what the filter response look like out of a BX-63A. Blue is the woofer and the Red in the High pass.

Rob :)

Hey Rob, so what is that: Q=2, +6 dB @ 25Hz and a second order butterworth crossover at 125Hz?


Widget

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Widget

Hey Rob, so what is that: Q=2, +6 dB @ 25Hz and a second order butterworth crossover at 125Hz?


Widget

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Yes that's it. I think there is a VLF high pass in there to sharpen the knee and give subsonic protection bellow 20Hz. Can't find any info though.

Rob:)

I think with some analog graphic equalizer models one may APPROXIMATE a similar boost/cut filter EQ.

On the EQ shown the low cut filter is variable from 20hz to 200hz (also has high cut filter from 3.5khz to 22khz). These are Bessel 12 db/oct. filters, said to have better linearity, phase and Group delay in that context. The Bessel has a little more droop than a Butterworth filter for example.

That suggests the EQ boost may need to have a bit more amplitude here. Naturally, being graphic 2/3 oct. EQ, not parametric, the slider center frequencies are predetermined and filter bandwidth is not adjustable, but the filters are constant Q, and the array of frequencies available on the equalizer pretty much suits my needs.

Note i took off the removeable caps on the slider controls, these being like the ones typically found on mixer sliders, didn't like that for eqing, the EQs now have the same handling and look, at least for sliders.

The DBX 1215 EQ allows some of the above with its 18db/oct. @ 40hz Bessel low cut filter. However, the approximate boost/cut filter "trick" is limited to around 40hz for this unit since its a single frequency low cut contrary to the other one. I do like the DBX steeper 18db slope, specially with the 2205H and its limited cone travel by today's standards. Box tuning is in the vicinity of the filter's frequency, therefore lesser potential consequences if i beat a little on the driver.

As for parametric EQ's, well as i recall Orban made one though i don't think they still exist, George Massenburg Labs has model 8200 costing a bundle of money, and Rolls' parametric model RPQ160B is more affordable, also made in the US, but its a single channel unit therefore one needs a pair for stereo plus one more space i don't have in the rack...

Richard

Attachment 90881Attachment 90882

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Originally Posted by Earl K

Speaking of M&K subwoofers, the M&K "Volkswoofer" has quite consistently garnered decent reviews for it's musicality ( which I assume means it faithfully tracks the music and is not just a bloated 1-note bass generator ).

Google "Volkswoofer"

:)

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Earl K

Derek.

Research the ( discontinued ) Synthesis 3S3 subwoofer. It's passive and uses the well regarded le120h (12" ) woofer that's found in the L7...

From this thread!

:)

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Thanks Earl! I have heard of the Volkswoofer! Also heard of the Goliath or something like that, pretty attractive cabinets too. I'll have to keep an eye out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Robh3606

As Mr. Widget replied that is the filter used in the BX-63 and that can easily be duplicated using DSP. I have a crown amp for my HT subs and use the exact same filter using DSP.

If you are using the Ashley as you crossover might just be easier to use an active subwoofer with the Ashley driving the LFE input depending on the sub.

Here is what the filter response look like out of a BX-63A. Blue is the woofer and the Red in the High pass.

Rob :)

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Oh wow.. When I bought the Ashly XR-2001 I figured that would be all I'd need for the subwoofer- as I could now just send anything below my cut off frequency to it courtesy of the Ashly. But thanks to you guys and your vast knowledge, I see it isn't that simple. Bummer. The MX-350THX's seem to work that way- there's a bypass switch on the back and it seems to just run full signal when flipped. However, the subwoofer outputs on my receiver (Marantz SR7005) make it play like magic. Looks like I had mistakenly assumed all the receiver was doing was sending a low signal to the subwoofer. Although it sure sounds better playing that way than the other way- the bass is tighter and more engaging, so I left it. I was hoping the same would be true by just sending the low signal from the Ashly over to my Crown K1 and then the subwoofer. What would happen if I ran it this way anyway, or at least until I got some active DSP? The Ashly at least has a level and crossover slope adjustments I can play with, would it really be that bad?

The XR2001 will work fine, it just won't provide the 'step down' EQ function that JBL specifies but you can try the bass control on your pre-amp / receiver / whatever to try to get in the ballpark. Graphic EQs are pretty much the wrong answer for whatever you're try to accomplish EQ wise unless you're in a big hurry to accomplish some better than nothing EQ quickly - which is what they were invented for. If you want an elegant, all in one box analog solution look for an old BSS FDS366 and build a custom EQ Filter for each crossover band. If you want to get a good quality digital device look for a used Ashly 4.24D. Those have no front panel controls, it's all done from a computer connection but they are fairly cheap on eBay or Reverb.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat

Thanks Earl! I have heard of the Volkswoofer! Also heard of the Goliath or something like that, pretty attractive cabinets too. I'll have to keep an eye out.



Oh wow.. When I bought the Ashly XR-2001 I figured that would be all I'd need for the subwoofer- as I could now just send anything below my cut off frequency to it courtesy of the Ashly. But thanks to you guys and your vast knowledge, I see it isn't that simple. Bummer. The MX-350THX's seem to work that way- there's a bypass switch on the back and it seems to just run full signal when flipped. However, the subwoofer outputs on my receiver (Marantz SR7005) make it play like magic. Looks like I had mistakenly assumed all the receiver was doing was sending a low signal to the subwoofer. Although it sure sounds better playing that way than the other way- the bass is tighter and more engaging, so I left it. I was hoping the same would be true by just sending the low signal from the Ashly over to my Crown K1 and then the subwoofer. What would happen if I ran it this way anyway, or at least until I got some active DSP? The Ashly at least has a level and crossover slope adjustments I can play with, would it really be that bad?

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Ah, so this thing?: Ashly 4.24D - 4-In/8-Out Audio Distribution Processor 4.24D B&H (bhphotovideo.com)

..Great, more unique connectors to waste money on. Would it take place of the XR-2001? Seems like it could, like it is a digital version of the 2001. That's great, no more scratchy pots.

The BSS deal seems nice: FDS-366T | BSS Networked Audio Systems (bssaudio.com)
I like that it seems to use balanced connectors everywhere.

Thank you for the recommendations. By the way, any JBL pro subwoofers you could recommend? Seems those use a 1/4" type of input, is that correct? I'd like a 14" or 15" unit, but I haven't been able to find any, just monster 18 inchers. Not sure how those would look between my XPL's and the audio cabinet I've got everything in.

I have an Audio Control C101 series II as well. One of the biggest improvements I noticed was from pulling that out of my system. With proper gear, I've realized I don't need EQ. I bypass all of that stuff on the preamp, as it fortunately has a defeat feature.

Sorry, I meant to type BSS FDS360 crossover as being the ultimate analog crossover for those analog purists but of course the newest of those probably came off the production line twenty years ago and most on the used market lived pretty hard lives in portable systems. The BSS366T is a nice unit, I have two of them and they are my favorite DSP crossovers. I even keep a virtual machine installation of Windows XP to talk to them. This is because the control software will only run under XP and while you can accomplish most if not all of the configuration from the front panel ( if the display still works, not always a given with these ) you'll need to set aside a big block of time to navigate it all. Again another discontinued device. While those particular Ashly units are discontinued the current software will still work correctly with them under Win 10. I have two of those as well, one in my living room stereo so the Euroblock connectors aren't a terrible idea. Certainly better than RCA jacks but to each his own.

If you're looking to save space and aggravation why not just go with an amp that has DSP crossover capabilities built in?
https://labgruppen.com/product.html?modelCode=P0DNW

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Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat

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The BSS deal seems nice: FDS-366T | BSS Networked Audio Systems (bssaudio.com)
I like that it seems to use balanced connectors everywhere.

...

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(since it was mentioned) If it helps anyone, I seem to recall using London Architect to configure the 366T via it's serial port (yet another anachronism and set of rabbit holes).

Were you able to run London Architect on a Windows OS newer than XP? It won't run on Win 10 for me and that seemed to be the consensus on the BSS forum when they had a section for the 366.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grumpy

(since it was mentioned) If it helps anyone, I seem to recall using London Architect to configure the 366T via it's serial port (yet another anachronism and set of rabbit holes).

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Riley Casey

Were you able to run London Architect on a Windows OS newer than XP? It won't run on Win 10 for me and that seemed to be the consensus on the BSS forum when they had a section for the 366.

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I know it ran on Win 7 (Parallels VM on a mac) when I setup some 366T units for TiDome. Used a keyspan style usb-serial converter.

LA Version R6.00R5 still opens on Win 11 and I've used it with BLU-USB and BLU-100/160 type devices, but I no longer have an RS-232 type serial port (or a 366T handy). Perhaps this should go to a new/different thread?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Riley Casey

Sorry, I meant to type BSS FDS360 crossover as being the ultimate analog crossover for those analog purists but of course the newest of those probably came off the production line twenty years ago and most on the used market lived pretty hard lives in portable systems. The BSS366T is a nice unit, I have two of them and they are my favorite DSP crossovers. I even keep a virtual machine installation of Windows XP to talk to them. This is because the control software will only run under XP and while you can accomplish most if not all of the configuration from the front panel ( if the display still works, not always a given with these ) you'll need to set aside a big block of time to navigate it all. Again another discontinued device. While those particular Ashly units are discontinued the current software will still work correctly with them under Win 10. I have two of those as well, one in my living room stereo so the Euroblock connectors aren't a terrible idea. Certainly better than RCA jacks but to each his own.

If you're looking to save space and aggravation why not just go with an amp that has DSP crossover capabilities built in?
https://labgruppen.com/product.html?modelCode=P0DNW

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Hmm, guess I'd have to look into the FDS360 then. Funny, I do have an old computer which runs XP, but I haven't used that computer since I was a teenager. Not sure if it would even fire up, so that's a headache I'd rather avoid. I'll keep an eye out for the FDS360 or those Ashly units. I don't mind the Euroblock connectors, I just don't have any at the moment or any other stuff which uses them. Certainly better than RCA, I would just prefer balanced connectors as there seems to be a lot more of that out there at the level I'm playing in.

~600 watts per channel at 8 ohms.. About twice the price of my K1, but would save me money over additional gear. How do those sound? The K1 is the most amazing amplifier I've heard yet on bass, on my shoestring budget of course. So I'd rather not step backwards.

On the other hand, widget said "virtually all [passive] subs need Q." Are there some which already have that built in? How come I don't need to do anything for the 2214H in the XPL's?

Lastly, what about those JBL pro subwoofers??? I am curious about those and want to try them, they're dirt cheap compared to everything else!

Thank you for taking the time to reply to me. Just when I think I've started to comprehend what's going on and what I need, I get whacked in the head.

All the JBL pro subwoofers I'm familiar with use 18" drivers and aren't what I'd call small. A speaker that uses a 1/4" jack for its input isn't something that's targeted toward the pro market anyway. Even for musical instrument use NL connectors are used these days rather than 1/4 jacks.

BTW the Euroblock connectors as used on that Ashly unit are balanced while a number of the XLRs used on the older BSS units are unbalanced outputs. The connector doesn't define the difference between balanced and un balanced circuitry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat

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Lastly, what about those JBL pro subwoofers??? I am curious about those and want to try them, they're dirt cheap compared to everything else!

Thank you for taking the time to reply to me. Just when I think I've started to comprehend what's going on and what I need, I get whacked in the head.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Riley Casey

All the JBL pro subwoofers I'm familiar with use 18" drivers and aren't what I'd call small. A speaker that uses a 1/4" jack for its input isn't something that's targeted toward the pro market anyway. Even for musical instrument use NL connectors are used these days rather than 1/4 jacks.

BTW the Euroblock connectors as used on that Ashly unit are balanced while a number of the XLRs used on the older BSS units are unbalanced outputs. The connector doesn't define the difference between balanced and un balanced circuitry.

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PRX815XLF are pretty compact, light, and self powered with outputs that have switchable hpf outputs if needed

Friend of mine uses a pair of PRX715XLF under his PRX715 pair instead of the 18" version because he wanted something more compact.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Riley Casey

All the JBL pro subwoofers I'm familiar with use 18" drivers and aren't what I'd call small. A speaker that uses a 1/4" jack for its input isn't something that's targeted toward the pro market anyway. Even for musical instrument use NL connectors are used these days rather than 1/4 jacks.

BTW the Euroblock connectors as used on that Ashly unit are balanced while a number of the XLRs used on the older BSS units are unbalanced outputs. The connector doesn't define the difference between balanced and un balanced circuitry.

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NL.. Those look like Neutrik connectors? Are they one in the same? The passive pro JBL subwoofer I saw online seemed to have a 1/4 input. Least it's the only logical thing I deemed would work for it. Never saw a speaker with that before but it didn't appear to have been tampered with.

I did see the Euroblock connector was three wire. I could get them which also terminate into XLR, so that works, but it means buying more cables. Not the end of the world, just added expense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by short_circutz2

PRX815XLF are pretty compact, light, and self powered with outputs that have switchable hpf outputs if needed

Friend of mine uses a pair of PRX715XLF under his PRX715 pair instead of the 18" version because he wanted something more compact.

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I like their size, they would fit between my XPL's and response down to 38hz is satisfactory to me. Buutt, not a fan of them already having their own amplifier, especially at 1500W peak. Seems an amplifier instantly adds ~$1000 to the price tag. Would you happen to know any other pro JBL's that are approximately that size or utilize a 14 or 15" driver which are passive? They can be older, that's not an issue at all for me. Would probably save me money anyway. Although it's looking like I'm going to end up admitting defeat and buying a subwoofer with an amp in it..

::crickets::

..How about a set of JBL 4641's? 4547A's? I was reading on AudioKarma where someone used a pair of those in their house with good results.. JBL S2S-EX? Seems the 350 watts of the K1 wouldn't be enough to drive those though. Cool thread about the S2S here with a digital cutaway of it: JBL Synthesis S2S-EX Subwoofer (audioheritage.org) JBL SUB 18? (Just kidding, I'd have to upgrade the electrical system in my house to even think about running one of those.) On a side note, has anyone listened to a set of M2 monitors matched with a SUB 18?

RE NL.. Those look like Neutrik connectors? Are they one in the same?

Let's not fool ourselves. During the 70's and 80's (possibly after too?) the 1/4" phone connector was widely used on MI and SR speakers. An example shown, on the JBL Cabaret Series 2 from Dec. 1986 (same on Series 1).

On the other hand since Neutrik's Speakon (NL) connectors seem less familiar to you a quick overview follows.

Richard

Attachment 90914Attachment 90915

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Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat

::crickets::
....On a side note, has anyone listened to a set of M2 monitors matched with a SUB 18?

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This member. He has a thread about the system in his previous home also.

https://www.audioheritage.org/vbulle...18s-and-Cables

Ah, so some of those pro speakers did use that 1/4" input. I'm not crazy after all haha.. Thank you for the clarification, RMC! I've never seen a speaker cable which terminated with 1/4" though, but they must surely exist.

Thanks for the link, Rusty! I checked it, but it was pretty much just a "for sale" ad, no information as to how they sound or their sound compared to other stuff Champster has had. Based on the list price for that gear though, awesome deal to the folks who snatched the stuff up! But even so, that was still way out of my league. It's times like these I wish I did better at life..

So fellas, what do you think about a pair of 4641's or 4547A's??? Any other pro JBL subwoofers you could recommend? I feel down 35hz is deep enough for me, so they don't have to dig all the way down to 20hz. Would the spec sheets for a given subwoofer let me know if I need to run EQ on them for ideal response? Because if every subwoofer needs that, I can start hunting for a used BSS FDS360 as Riley mentioned.

Derek

Hi Derek,

These pro pa subs are generally rated at -10 db for the lower end frequency limit. They are really tuned for stage use with punch above 40 hertz.

One possibility is to consider a jbl car sub. They are designed for a relatively compact enclosure volume and are tuned to go down lower than a pro pa sub.

This is just an example:

https://www.jbl.com.au/S3-1224.html

https://www.jbl.com.au/on/demandware...SIII_OM_EN.pdf

Jbl provide enclosure plans as well. Just add a Dayton dsp plate amp and your on your way.

If you’re looking for a turnkey solution that fits the “theme” of your XPL-200’s, a S1S, S2S, or even the old Citation THX sub with LE14-1’s loaded would all be fun. Both the S1S and S2S have drivers that are modified for home use, and go lower than their pro equivalents, though they are less sensitive. Keep in mind that all of these subwoofers are strong to 30hz, but fall off after that. If you’re looking for something that can take a lot of power really low, for techno etc, at really high volume, I’d look at one of the modern woofers. Are you looking for a built solution, or are you willing to build a box?

Thank you for the in-depth reply, Ian!

I did not know that about the Pro subs, but it makes sense. Perhaps I'd like that? Seems that's where the 2214H's need a little help anyway. Isn't 40-90hz where that tight kick drum is felt in the chest? I was listening to "Never Been Any Reason" by Head East and wow, the Crown K1 really tightened them up. But I thought 40hz @ 6db roll off was good enough for the 2214H's. I was wrong, but before I bottomed out the one woofer, that kick drum in that tune rocked, like being tapped in the chest. I never jammed that tune before like I did that day. Can't sing enough praise about a Crown K1 on low end duties.

Anyway, I was hoping not to go with a car subwoofer or plate amp, don't think I need a big beefy unit like you linked lol. Or maybe I do? Am I the only one who bottoms out woofers? I was never able to bottom out or hear any weirdness with whatever 15" driver is in my Klipsch Cornwalls (K-33's I think? - Square magnet deal..), even when playing Axle F at high volumes. They just don't have the finesse of the XPL's though, and the cabinets are beat six ways to Sunday, so they went out to serve in the garage. If I had to go with a standalone subwoofer, I guess I'd look at getting another set of M&K MX-350THX's.

Perhaps you could provide some insight into a curiosity of mine? So I've got these two JBL E250P's. The one has that issue where it turns off and on continuously and so I'm sure the other isn't far behind it. Compared to the M&K's, they're muddier than the Rio Grande, bloated even. Why? Based on the almost night and day performance difference between an Adcom GFA-555II and the Crown K1, I'm inclined to say that perhaps the amplifier is to blame. But maybe there's more to it, like port design and enclosure volume? What difference would the driver make in terms of tightness? Because I was thinking if it's primarily the amp in this case, I'll rip the amplifiers out of them and put 'em upstairs driven by that spare K1 I've got.



Thank you for your response as well, HSCGuy!

Yes, I want to be lazy and am indeed looking for a turnkey solution. I've got zero woodworking skills so a homemade subwoofer is a no-go for me.. I did not know that about the HK Citation 7.4 Subwoofer! I don't know much, but an LE14-H sounds like the perfect compliment to the XPL's. As for the other recommendations, would those be the Synthesis S1 and S2? Definitely not a techno guy or modern music person. When I jam out, it's rock 'n roll. Sometimes I'll jam some Nirvana, Mumford & Sons, The Black Keys or Modest Mouse, but that's about as modern as I get. That stuff digs much deeper than I thought, so a subwoofer which has response below 35 or 30hz might be too much for that material. When I did have the M&K subwoofer in place with the L150A's, I couldn't adjust it right, it was often too much bass for me. Like, I'd get the floor/wall shaking bass to my liking, but then I'd lose the impact of the kick drum.

My impression is your asking more than the XPL drivers are designed to deliver.




Sound reproduction is a very personal thing and you are best guided by your own ears. Ultimately your ears decide on what you like and what makes you happy. Not a review or an opinion.

The hard part is working out what you need to do about it? Bass or low frequency reproduction interacts with your listening in complicated ways and requires far more power than mid and high frequencies. It’s just the way it is. Small rooms (any residential living space) are notoriously more challenging for a good bass so your going to have your work cut our for you. Spare a thought for your neighbour!

Looking at your XPL250 system it looks like your reaching their limits to achieve what you like. If you like chest thumping bass transients as opposed to low bass extension for home theatre then your requirements are a bit more focused.

Its helpful to look at the tunes you play and understand what it is you need to amplify?

Typically (as a generalisation) most 4 string guitars have a fundamental that starts at around 40 hertz. There exception such as a 5 or 6 string that start at 31 hertz.

https://www.studybass.com/gear/bass-...equency-range/

Quoting the link above “While the fundamental range of the bass extends up to around 400Hz, most bass playing occurs with fundamentals below that between 40Hz and 200Hz.”

Next are drums. A kick drum fundamental is around 50 hertz and toms are 70 hertz while a snare starts at 100 hertz.

So if this is your thing then it comes down to what will work out best to incorporate into your existing or perhaps a new loudspeaker system.

You need clean tones and lots dynamic range to reproduce the type of bass you like.

A home theatre sub or even a hifi sub is unlikely to cut it because they are more focused on creating deeper bass.

Clearly the 2214H isn’t going to cut it attempting to reach the levels you require. The 2314H driver is relatively inefficient and it simply can’t move enough air without distortion.

My suggestion is look at a 15 inch pro direct radiator sub system as a stereo pair or an 18 inch direct radiator system.

The next point is how to integrate with your XPL250.

What l would do is try running your XPL250 in passive mode and cross then over at 150 hertz to your stereo subs. This will let your subs shine where it counts most while still retaining the finesse of your main system. A dsp crossover like a Drive Rack will work fine. If your subs are self powered that’s easy or look at your K1 or like in the link below.

https://djcity.com.au/product/behrin...h-smart-sense/

The particular bass system is entirely up to you and what your rears tell you.

Thank you for yet another detailed response, Ian! I really appreciate you taking the time to shed some advice my way.

Neat links. Listened to "Jungle Man" by the Meters, which was imbedded into that bass frequency range link. Never heard it before, I dig it. I think the only Meters tune I knew was "Rigor Mortis." Have you auditioned that Behringer amp? Lot of watts for the buck, plus an equalizer.

I think I am asking for too much from the XPL's. That or they're playing much louder than I actually think. Story time (Skip if you hate these): As a teen and into my early twenties, harsh sounds/ears hurting were my indicators for it's "too loud." That was often achieved with my JBL E90's and a 100 watt/channel receiver But with my current gear, it doesn't hurt or shock me unless it's a terrible recording. I was once listening to ZZ Top and the ex had to relocate to a different room while I jammed on. So I thought I was going deaf or perhaps hard of hearing so I went in for a test. Well, despite having tinnitus they told me my hearing was actually better than most. The tech analyzing me said I had better hearing than he did. :dont-know: With that said, I'm not sure what I'm trying to achieve SPL wise. I saw the Red Hot Chili Peppers the other day, for example. I wore ear plugs as I always do at concerts and whoa, they were still really loud. My ears would have been bleeding if not for the plugs. By comparison, my set-up seems like it comes about 80% as close to concert levels. I should have taken my SPL meter, but I think it measures in the wrong weight for audio? In any event, when I listen again I'll cite what levels I achieved and what meter I used. I think last time I did it was 114dB peak. Concerts achieve up to 120, so 114 should be damn loud, but it isn't hurting my ears and so that says to me it isn't loud enough. Then when I showed my dad my set up, he goes to jam it and similar thing- he goes to turn the damn thing up louder than I would. Fortunately, I did not have reveal my system's weakness as what he was listening to (Edgar Winter) wasn't bass heavy, but did have to tell him to watch for the clip lights. He was at least impressed with the system's clarity, and said that's why he kept wanting to go louder. Looks like we attenuate volume based on the same criteria, pain in the ears. Is that typical behavior?

TLDR: I suppose I need to adjust to the fact that the system is louder than necessary/capable. It's just a hard thing to get my mind to come to terms with, from comparing concert experience to home listening experience. However, it does seem that when at a concert, satisfactory bass thump in my chest. At home, just shy of that. From your post I've deduced I need to amplify the 40-70hz spectrum.

Passive mode huh? Hmm. Well, my experience with those XPL's seems to mirror everyone elses', that with the switch flipped to "Passive" the bass just doesn't sound great, but it really comes alive when you bring out another stereo amp and switch to "bi-amp" with an active crossover. Like, the bass isn't tight and seems muddled by comparison. I'm not sure why that is, but do remember coming across something in which Greg Timbers said the 2214H didn't play well with the inductor in the network, that bi-amping solves that problem.

So what do you think of this idea?: Continue to use the XPL's in bi-amp configuration. Divide the signal to them via Ashly XR2001- amplifier 1 for midbass, midrange and tweeter, amplifier 2 for 2214H, but limited to 100hz via XR2001, amplifier 3 for passive subwoofers, HK Citation 7.4's (which utilize anLE14-H) I like this idea as I enjoy the bass from the 2214H's, very tight no matter what frequency. Hard for me to describe but I think you know what I mean. I'm just afraid I'd lose that if I used a subwoofer to cover stuff above 60hz.

Again, thank you (and anyone else) who reads through my drivel and tries to make sense of it to help me. It's really appreciated. I love listening to music and have never enjoyed it like I do now, thanks to this gear. It's just started that bug of, "Well, this sounds good, but how can it be better?" Which all started from a free receiver and a set of JBL LX44's. Funny how that goes, right?

Thank you for sharing your experiences.

Try out your plan and do that for a while then review. Trust your ears. We all have our own unique interpretation of the sound we like and it’s about what you like.

On loudness your ears do adjust but don’t be fooled by that. You can damage your ears quite easily. Listening in a room is a different environment to a concert gig in an open air stadium or a large venue.

At home all the bass energy pings around inside your room walls and tends to build up in the corners as the bass energy dissipates over a small time interval called reverberation time.

I did something similar in the early 90’s when l was gifted a pair of Altec bass enclosures. At the time l had some old school poor man’s 4411 monitors made by RCF. After a while l realised the RCF monitors were the weak link and l tri amped them with a jbl 2397 horn. I then added a 2405 slot radiator. Over several years l trialled numerous combinations of horns and mid cone drivers. Then one day l scored a single jbl 4645 sub with 2245H woofer and some high sensitivity Audax mid cone drivers. What l ended up with was a Frankenstein four way jbl studio monitor which l morphed in some 4345 monitors after l found the LHS forum.

The thing is l was about 40 at the time and had gone full circle as l had built some jbl 4343 15 inch clones when l was just 20 in the early 80’s. I was determined l needed a descent set of loudspeakers for my 21st. At the time there was very little information on anything other than brochures so l wrote to JBL for details of the crossover network. I got a nice letter back from Gary Margolis who politely suggested l try an active crossover. I designed my own mid array passive crossover from a schematic in Martin Colloms HiFi Handbook and used a Nakamichi active crossover. My brother still my 4343 system.

I still use my 4345 clones till this day because they work for me and that’s all that matters. They are not perfect but l have refined them and they do things most loudspeaker can’t do and never will. They are very linear over the entire frequency range which our hearing is sensitive too. In other words all frequencies from 32 hertz up increase in loudness equally together and it’s limitless. Everything tracks together perfectly. It’s a very immersive sound experience which l like. I have a lot of drivers including Tad’s but l still come back to the JBL sound.

Enjoy your journey and above all let your ears be the judge.

Hey take a look free shipping and you can return.

Rob :)




https://www.jbl.com/labor-day-sale/L...labor-day-sale

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat

...I think last time I did it was 114dB peak. Concerts achieve up to 120, so 114 should be damn loud, but it isn't hurting my ears and so that says to me it isn't loud enough...

---

Much like some earlier discussion of your previous L150A speakers and listening at these levels, there's no doubt both pairs of speakers are producing lots of distortion. Neither pair was designed for this type of use imho.

I do appreciate wanting your system to be able to REALLY kick-it though. I recently heard a unique speaker system that utilizes 24 - 6.5" mid woofers, 12 - 1" dome tweeters, and 2 - dedicated subwoofers. The listening room was 24'x35' with a cathedral ceiling. The sound pressure was amazing and effortless. Concert levels with very little distortion. There are options available that will let you do what you're looking for, but I don't know if you'll find it with 30-40 year old JBL home speakers. Have you considered other options like selling the home speakers and some of the electronics and maybe getting some cinema speakers, or a diy build with more modern drivers? Maybe 2 - 12" high excursion woofers per side?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie

Thank you for sharing your experiences.

Try out your plan and do that for a while then review. Trust your ears. We all have our own unique interpretation of the sound we like and it’s about what you like.

On loudness your ears do adjust but don’t be fooled by that. You can damage your ears quite easily. Listening in a room is a different environment to a concert gig in an open air stadium or a large venue.

At home all the bass energy pings around inside your room walls and tends to build up in the corners as the bass energy dissipates over a small time interval called reverberation time.

I did something similar in the early 90’s when l was gifted a pair of Altec bass enclosures. At the time l had some old school poor man’s 4411 monitors made by RCF. After a while l realised the RCF monitors were the weak link and l tri amped them with a jbl 2397 horn. I then added a 2405 slot radiator. Over several years l trialled numerous combinations of horns and mid cone drivers. Then one day l scored a single jbl 4645 sub with 2245H woofer and some high sensitivity Audax mid cone drivers. What l ended up with was a Frankenstein four way jbl studio monitor which l morphed in some 4345 monitors after l found the LHS forum.

The thing is l was about 40 at the time and had gone full circle as l had built some jbl 4343 15 inch clones when l was just 20 in the early 80’s. I was determined l needed a descent set of loudspeakers for my 21st. At the time there was very little information on anything other than brochures so l wrote to JBL for details of the crossover network. I got a nice letter back from Gary Margolis who politely suggested l try an active crossover. I designed my own mid array passive crossover from a schematic in Martin Colloms HiFi Handbook and used a Nakamichi active crossover. My brother still my 4343 system.

I still use my 4345 clones till this day because they work for me and that’s all that matters. They are not perfect but l have refined them and they do things most loudspeaker can’t do and never will. They are very linear over the entire frequency range which our hearing is sensitive too. In other words all frequencies from 32 hertz up increase in loudness equally together and it’s limitless. Everything tracks together perfectly. It’s a very immersive sound experience which l like. I have a lot of drivers including Tad’s but l still come back to the JBL sound.

Enjoy your journey and above all let your ears be the judge.

---

Thank you for sharing yours as well.

Indeed we do. Ok, so I'll try to get that plan in motion. Would anyone happen to know someone who is willing to part with one (preferably two) Harmon Kardon Citation 7.4 subwoofers?? I'm getting the feeling that I will not have an easy time finding a set or even one. In the meantime, what about these? Seller has only the one listed, but says two are available: Bowers & Wilkins CT SW12 Passive Subwoofer | eBay I once listened to a friend's active 10" B&W subwoofer and was impressed with it. The track was an acoustic version "Blowin' Free" by Wishbone Ash- the first time I felt that bass could tap you on the chest. Like, "Whoa, that's what it is supposed to sound like???"

Oh my ears definitely ring after a good session, akin to a concert. So you're right, I shouldn't be fooled by them but it's a good thing the K1 has clip lights. It's just strange because during the listening experience, there's no pain (mostly) or any cause for concern. But when I shut it all down and it's quiet- whoa. If only my mind wasn't playing that trick on me, "If only it was just a weee bit louder. Let's get that thump just a bit more defined to enjoy this track properly..."

Pretty cool that you can build your own enclosures and enjoy doing it, it's definitely an art. I would have liked to hear this "frankenstein" four-way monitor of yours.

Yeah, so far it's been a good journey. I feel I'm close to being able to close the book on it, hopefully the subwoofers are the final key. Thanks again for your input, I'll be sure to chime back in with results when I have them. Unsolved threads irk me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rusty jefferson

Much like some earlier discussion of your previous L150A speakers and listening at these levels, there's no doubt both pairs of speakers are producing lots of distortion. Neither pair was designed for this type of use imho.

I do appreciate wanting your system to be able to REALLY kick-it though. I recently heard a unique speaker system that utilizes 24 - 6.5" mid woofers, 12 - 1" dome tweeters, and 2 - dedicated subwoofers. The listening room was 24'x35' with a cathedral ceiling. The sound pressure was amazing and effortless. Concert levels with very little distortion. There are options available that will let you do what you're looking for, but I don't know if you'll find it with 30-40 year old JBL home speakers. Have you considered other options like selling the home speakers and some of the electronics and maybe getting some cinema speakers, or a diy build with more modern drivers? Maybe 2 - 12" high excursion woofers per side?

---

Thank you for the response, rusty! Special thanks for remembering that thread! Yes, and it seemed when I bi-amped those L150A's with bridged GFA-555II's, it was bliss!! -For about five minutes. Someone put the wrong fuses in one of the amps and so it shut down mid way through some great guitar work by Steve Miller on Mercury Blues. I had just gotten the woofers back from edgewound and man, those things never shined so bright! 600watts seemed to be what those liked. But when I changed all the fuses out on both amps so they were all the same, firing the one back up after it shut down was a dumb idea. Well, dumb in the sense I left it connected to the 150A before verifying it was ok. It immediately fried the fresh recone job on one of the 128H's. Those 150A's have been down ever since. I got the one repaired again thanks to Ken, but I gave him more work to do with the 044 tweeters and PR300's. I've also acquired fresh crossovers for them but nothing has been installed as I'm still waiting for Ken to work his magic.

However, if there was distortion, wouldn't it sound like soupy dog-doo? I have pushed other speakers in the past and I can hear them start to break up, I just call that sounding like ass, aka dog-doo. I've never had that happen with a pair of JBL's I've owned.

Wow, I'd like to hear that system too. Just don't know that I'd want to be responsible for it haha. As it was a long time ago (back when I had & thought a Marantz 510M was a good amp) I seem to recall thinking that when I had the Klispch Cornwalls in rotation they got mighty loud when paired up with the 510M. I learned a lot about sensitivity thanks to them. I am starting to think I need to move to compression drivers to achieve what I am looking for SPL wise. Had my eyes on JBL 4435's. Seemed like they would be wonderful, but then when I started looking into what a set would run me- Not a poker table I could sit at.
So I'm going to try adding subs with the XPL200's as they truly are the most wonderful speaker I've heard so far. I especially like them down low when say people are over. I tend to zone out on the conversation and pay attention to the music instead. By comparison, the Cornwalls weren't as magnificent. However, they could pound and play loud, best $600 I ever spent on audio.

Well, not a fan of DIY audio stuff, so that's out. Newer speakers? Meh.. I've got my preconceptions as to what they'll sound like. Given most music today isn't what I'd call music, I can't imagine that what I could afford would please my ears. I like to think that the stuff I have was produced & developed back when music mattered and more people cared about what they listened to, not "Boom-boom, tee-tee-tee-tiss-tiss-tiss" that is "popular" music. I'm sure I'm wrong about that, but in my head it makes sense given what I've seen and all I'm subjected to outside my own personal sanctum. And I quote, "Gotta get that boom-boom-boom! Gotta get that boom-boom-boom!" -Crappy hip-skippity-hop track I was subjected to in public. So that's either a reference to rattle your license plate off bass or kids still refer to sex as "boom-boom" like Howlin' Wolf did.

So I found a Citation 7.4 subwoofer: Citation 7.4 Subwoofer For Sale - US Audio Mart

$800 seems a bit steep for a single LE14H-1 in a box, what do you guys think?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat

So I found a Citation 7.4 subwoofer: Citation 7.4 Subwoofer For Sale - US Audio Mart

$800 seems a bit steep for a single LE14H-1 in a box, what do you guys think?

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I'd say its steep, yes. Not sure what your local market is like, but maybe one of the 18" (non-powered) pro subs would do better for you. I had good results with a 4641 I found for under $500 at the time.
Terrible WAF initially, but played very well, and good at home once I hid it under a nice cloth drape. (pix circa 2011-2012)

Thank you for your response, hjames! Awesome set up, is that a set of 4341's? What do you think of them? Haven't you had 250ti's? I wonder how the big monitors compare. What is your opinion of the L212?

Yeah, my market is terrible for hi-fi. What crops up usually does so about 125-150 miles away in Ohio. If and when it does locally (<40 miles), the price is inflated quite a bit and the condition leaves more to be desired. The 4641 was amidst my possible alternatives, no dice there either. Fortunately though, the WAF factor isn't really a factor. She loves this stuff just as much as I do. Although ever since learning about the 7.4 Subwoofer, I'm kind of set on it. A pair would be wonderful. This one appears to be minty, and so I find myself asking, "When would another show up and how much would that person want?" So what if I offered this person $600? I'm thinking about doing just that..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat

Thank you for your response, hjames! Awesome set up, is that a set of 4341's? What do you think of them? Haven't you had 250ti's? I wonder how the big monitors compare. What is your opinion of the L212?

Yeah, my market is terrible for hi-fi. What crops up usually does so about 125-150 miles away in Ohio. If and when it does locally (<40 miles), the price is inflated quite a bit and the condition leaves more to be desired. The 4641 was amidst my possible alternatives, no dice there either. Fortunately though, the WAF factor isn't really a factor. She loves this stuff just as much as I do. Although ever since learning about the 7.4 Subwoofer, I'm kind of set on it. A pair would be wonderful. This one appears to be minty, and so I find myself asking, "When would another show up and how much would that person want?" So what if I offered this person $600? I'm thinking about doing just that..

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Never owned 250TIs, tho my friend Mark (Opimax) had pairs of them.
I had 4341s when I took the first picture in 2011. had L100T as side surrounds, and L20T as rear surrounds.
By the 2nd picture (2012) I was trying a room full of vandersteen 2Cis and 2CEs, interesting,
but I prefer the more dynamic JBL speakers - currently I have UREI 809As for side and front surrounds.
They use JBL Coaxial drivers (those 14 woofer!) and have stunning imaging!

I'm a fan of the JBL 14" woofers - from the L100Ts, and my current UREIs - Nice punch!
So, I'd vote to make an offer for that, haggle a bit, and see how that goes.

Couple years back I found my heart's delight in Ft. Meyer, FLA.
A guy there had a B460 he couldn't seem to sell, kept lowering the price!
When the price got to a certain point, I even considered driving to FLA to get it!

But a friend was moving up from FL and he offered to bring it to Fredericksburg, VA -
so I bought it remotely, I met him in Fredericksburg, tipped him nicely,
and brought it the rest of the way home to Fairfax, VA where I live ...

Attachment 91008Attachment 91007

Awesome, I love hearing about the lengths taken in pursuit of audio nirvana. I travelled to nab my XPL200's. The person I bought them from was kind enough to meet me half way. A B460 is quite a score. What did you think of the 4341's? How about the L100T? I've always wondered what one would sound like with the T3 crossover, heard there are some differences between the cabinet used for the T and T3. Don't those use the same 12" as the XPL200, the 2214H? The nomenclature is definitely confusing, why not call it a 2212H?! I'm a fan of that woofer's punch though, nice and tight, best bass I've heard yet.

Thank you for your advice, I'll certainly try and haggle then. However, something else came up and if it works out... :D:D:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat

Awesome, I love hearing about the lengths taken in pursuit of audio nirvana. I travelled to nab my XPL200's. The person I bought them from was kind enough to meet me half way. A B460 is quite a score. What did you think of the 4341's? How about the L100T? I've always wondered what one would sound like with the T3 crossover, heard there are some differences between the cabinet used for the T and T3. Don't those use the same 12" as the XPL200, the 2214H? The nomenclature is definitely confusing, why not call it a 2212H?! I'm a fan of that woofer's punch though, nice and tight, best bass I've heard yet.

Thank you for your advice, I'll certainly try and haggle then. However, something else came up and if it works out... :D:D:D

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I saw that sub on USAudiomart - yes, it is more expensive than others, but it does look minty. In my experience, looking at a mint product washes away the pain of paying a little more, while thinking “But I got a good deal” doesn’t do as much to ease the pain of looking at scratches on a really nice speaker. I’d probably buy the citation sub, though freight is going to make it hurt even more. Or just sit and wait - given enough time, everything comes up for sale.

If you like the “HiFi” sound (imaging, smooth highs, etc), and are a JBL fan, you’ll have a hard time beating your XPL200’s. Every time I hook mine up, they sound great, regardless of the room. I also have L100T3’s - they’re like an unrefined little brother. Bass doesn’t have the same detail, mids are a little harsh, but they’re still fun to listen to. If you can only have one speaker, you’re doing pretty well. You might like 250Ti’s a little bit better, or might not. I listen at much lower levels than you, and love them both though my room is tough - really strong in the bass, so I generally prefer something that has less bass, or has a front port. I haven’t put my 250Ti’s in that room yet, but I think I’d have to plug the port. Good luck with your continuing search :)

Thank you for the response, HSCGuy!

I am of the same opinion. Also, it has been my experience that it is much easier to keep something nice than to make it nice, cheaper too. I was pretty close to pulling the trigger on that Citation 7.4 subwoofer, but now believe I'm going in a different direction altogether. However, your opinion on the XPL's has some weight. I do enjoy Hi-Fi quite a bit. I've found the XPL to be the best thing I've heard in terms of the qualities you've listed. Just so smooth & buttery at any volume. I find myself listening to material I wouldn't have listened to before I had them, especially tracks with soloists and whatnot. I'm not a writer, so I can't accurately describe what I've heard but I can say I hear things I've never heard before. It's like the difference between seeing the real thing after staring at a hologram of it for years. Seeing is believing. I do jam out, but the XPL200's also put in a lot of time as background speakers. And even then, I find myself zoning out on them instead of listening to whatever the company I have over is trying to talk about. If I dial back the throttle on them, the detail is even more pronounced. Although in my experience, that seems to be true of every speaker, even the junky ones. They just don't compare to the XPL's. The first time I tried that was after reading through some sales literature for the L150A's I had. They advertised as being great at any volume, but if you dialed back a bit, the transients would really step out. After going, "Huh?" and then trying it out I thought to myself, "Wow. There is something to that, it's not just market-wank-a-teering.." I have often thought of the XPL200 as being my end game speaker, if I could just figure out how to seamlessly get some additional low end in there and if possible, could I then drive them just a smidge harder without hurting the titanium mid & tweeter.

But thanks to this thread, an opportunity has come up to own what appear to be legendary UREI studio monitors from the early/mid 80's. Something within says I need to do that and at the same time another part says something will change and then that'll drive me nuts as well. However, I think the trade off could be worth it, won't know until my ears audition them. But, just like with every other speaker I've purchased, that opportunity doesn't come until after I've purchased them and set 'em up in my house. I'm telling myself that if these sound acceptable while providing that smidge of extra SPL desired, they'll edge out the XPL's. I only hope that's the case. Because even though I feel I'm getting the family price, it's still quite the expense and much more than my original budget for "just some subwoofers" as I intended. Here's hoping misfortune doesn't strike me while my financial pants are down, LoL...

Also, I enjoyed reading what you wrote about the L100T3's as well! Very interesting, and surprisingly similar to what my mind had generated about them after reading other threads about them and the 240ti. The 240ti was on my list as well, almost bought a set which came up locally some two years ago. Decided against it when I learned the mids weren't the original units. Have you ever listened to those? Seem like a poor woman's/man's 250ti haha..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat

...Yeah, my market is terrible for hi-fi. What crops up usually does so about 125-150 miles away in Ohio...

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Case in point! A very lovely looking set of 4350B's for sale: JBL 4350 SPEAKERS - electronics - by owner - sale (craigslist.org)
...About 120 miles from where I am.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat

Also, I enjoyed reading what you wrote about the L100T3's as well! Very interesting, and surprisingly similar to what my mind had generated about them after reading other threads about them and the 240ti. The 240ti was on my list as well, almost bought a set which came up locally some two years ago. Decided against it when I learned the mids weren't the original units. Have you ever listened to those? Seem like a poor woman's/man's 250ti haha..

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Yeah, I had a mint pair of 240Ti’s years ago - very disappointing. Similar comparison between 240Ti and 250Ti as there is from L100T3 to XPL200 - didn’t have the smoothness in the mids or the definition in the bass. I ended up pulling them apart - Grumpy has the enclosures now, mids went to someone else for a 250 to 250Ti up grade, etc.

I think the biggest thing you’ll gain going to the UREI’s, or really any high efficiency speaker, is that they will sound much more dynamic when played loud, as they will not go into compression until a higher volume point. For someone who likes it loud like you, this may be addicting, but you may miss how clean and detailed the XPL’s sounded. If you want it loud, clean, and dynamic, you will find your choice in speakers to be much smaller, and at significantly higher cost (Genelec, JBL K2, Danley, etc). I have never heard UREI’s, btw, so I cannot say how they sound.

Did you say "K2"? (In parenthesis at least...)

As often posted around here, I use a pair of JBL Synthesis S2S 15" subs with my K2s to give better mid bass and better low bass. The BSS 366T grumpy-tuned omnidrive units on the K2s and Greg Timbers blest S2S subs on a 40Hz crossover through a Parasound pre make a great addition that produces ample LF output in my home's big common area.

I see S2S subs on the 'bay from time to time, and prices are usually low. Since I prefer to have subs that require external amplification, the S2S fits the bill. There have been far too many failed plate amps for me to want to mess with that again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HCSGuy

Yeah, I had a mint pair of 240Ti’s years ago - very disappointing. Similar comparison between 240Ti and 250Ti as there is from L100T3 to XPL200 - didn’t have the smoothness in the mids or the definition in the bass. I ended up pulling them apart - Grumpy has the enclosures now, mids went to someone else for a 250 to 250Ti up grade, etc.

I think the biggest thing you’ll gain going to the UREI’s, or really any high efficiency speaker, is that they will sound much more dynamic when played loud, as they will not go into compression until a higher volume point. For someone who likes it loud like you, this may be addicting, but you may miss how clean and detailed the XPL’s sounded. If you want it loud, clean, and dynamic, you will find your choice in speakers to be much smaller, and at significantly higher cost (Genelec, JBL K2, Danley, etc). I have never heard UREI’s, btw, so I cannot say how they sound.

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That's a bummer. Interesting you mention definition in bass, cleanliness and dynamics. That's just about everything I love about the XPL200's in a nutshell. Their bass & midbass really makes "old" tracks come to life in ways that make me feel like I'm hearing them for the first time. I don't know how to explain it better than that though. But listening to say "Dear Prudence" and "Get Back" by the Beatles is an experience. Difference between HD and SD. Speaking of Get Back, I used my SPL meter the other day. The system achieved a peak of 107 dB-A (Clip lights flickering on the Adcom GFA-555II) but was comfortable around 106 dB-A (No clip lights). My listening position is about seven or eight feet from the speakers. How loud do you (and anyone else who'd like to comment!) listen and what will your system(s) achieve? About how much louder might I expect from a system that has a rated sensitivity of ~101dB @ 1watt/1meter?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Titanium Dome

Did you say "K2"? (In parenthesis at least...)

As often posted around here, I use a pair of JBL Synthesis S2S 15" subs with my K2s to give better mid bass and better low bass. The BSS 366T grumpy-tuned omnidrive units on the K2s and Greg Timbers blest S2S subs on a 40Hz crossover through a Parasound pre make a great addition that produces ample LF output in my home's big common area.

I see S2S subs on the 'bay from time to time, and prices are usually low. Since I prefer to have subs that require external amplification, the S2S fits the bill. There have been far too many failed plate amps for me to want to mess with that again.

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I'll keep an eye out for them should this hypothetical thing fall through. I also prefer subs which require external amplification as failed plate amps have been my experience too. Well, I also have enough failed amps in my roster as well. My Carver TFM 55x is out along with my "spare" Crown K1. Both have dead right channels. I think I'll fix the Crown, but no one locally will touch the Carver and it's already been under the knife under my tenure...

Good luck with your plans.

It helps to put everything in perspective.

Hi end hifi

The K2 systems are impressive but equally important is attention to room acoustics and careful setting up. Without the skills needed to achieve this the last few ounces of what the K2’s offer is lost and the cost benefit with it. Unfortunately people do acquire these systems with the sole intent that the loudspeaker will on its own deliver their expectations. This results in deep disappointment. I have met system owners who have experienced this plight and as a consequence they have all but lost interest in the hobby.

A first world problem - an introduction

The thing to be aware of is many modern residential homes have living spaces with an open plan layout and large flat parallel wall and floor surfaces. Many people need to compromise with a much smaller than desired listening room which also create complicated acoustic challenges. The design of these residential living spaces creates much longer than ideal reverberation time (RT30 over 600ms).

A first world problem - what you don’t want to know

The effect is a clouding of the clarity - and detail of an otherwise good loudspeaker system. In addition there maybe slap echo any other problems including modal ringing in the low frequency response. This result is serious loss of bass clarity. Careful placement of the loudspeaker system can assist with the ratio of direct sound from the loudspeaker and the first reflections and some low frequency modes. But the reverberation issues remain unfortunately. Many audiophiles are completely oblivious to this fact and continuously invest a fortune in Stereophile AAA+ rated equipment based on reviews. An unfortunate fact….. l know of a high end turntable manufacturer who went to Michael Fremer’s home to review a new turntable. He was shocked by the state of listening room. It was described as a child’s toy room. Yes that’s for real. It’s a dump not a critical listening space. You can view this on YouTube.


Why size matters

With a typical mid fi and conventional hifi system with limited dynamic capacity we can overlook these shortcomings to a degree. But the more sound energy you put into a room as for example with a powerful JBL system the more the room needs to find a way of absorbing that energy. Simple physics.

Annoyingly there is no one size fits all and the acoustic treatment solution is often very room specific requiring real skill to assess and implement. Too much of the wrong diy treatment and your room will suck and not be better.

Real world examples- it does make a real difference

In the case of Greg Timbers listening room he has achieved more with the acoustics than JBL’s auditioning rooms according to people in the know. I can only say it’s a treat to hear a loudspeaker be it an Everest or a 4331 in Greg’s room. The room is after all at least half what you actually hear. With my own room an acoustic consultant has specified 5 square metres of bespoke broad band bass traps and 17 square metres of wall treatment. Fortunately the Tardis is dimensionally transcendental and much of this acoustic treatment can be architecturally incorporated into the room finishes. The challenge is making the living space visually acceptable when incorporating such treatments.

The zero game position

If that all sounds (sorry) too hard it’s a safer bet to set your expectations on a system more appropriate to your circumstances than aim for the stars and still enjoy a trip to Disneyland.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie

Good luck with your plans.

....If that all sounds (sorry) too hard it’s a safer bet to set your expectations on a system more appropriate to your circumstances than aim for the stars and still enjoy a trip to Disneyland.

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Hmm. I think I'll skip that and go to Cedar Point instead. I'm picking up what you're putting down though. My room acoustics seem fine to my laymen ears. My living room still looks like the old folks I bought the house from might still live there; Carpet, old heavy cloth curtains. Cloth couch. I'm very pleased with how things sound though. The issue is I'd like it to be a weee bit louder. Would you be satisfied with 107 dB-A peaks? Should I be? Is that loud? Seems in order to get the ear drum rattle satisfaction factor right, I need to achieve about 110 or 111. The new kit which would take the XPLs' place would take up significantly more real estate within my living room. Bass overloading(?) might be a factor in that case. We'll see how it shakes out. It's all about the journey, right? Maybe after it's all said and done I might give up. Pretty damn expensive hobby for someone of my limited budget. Which is funny, because just like with everything else, I'm spending nickels by comparison to others.

No no. I remember going through that phase of making everything louder than everything else. It’s absolutely normal. Trust me.

The thing is are your 107 db peaks Klipschorn peaks or JBL peaks? Unless you have those peaks down to 30 hertz it does not qualify as loud in my book! It will sound bigger as opposed to louder once you start pumping out real bass. When the lights start dimming you know it’s working.

To test this philosophy one day my most hated neighbour stopped knocking on the front door until the end of a Dark Side of the Moon track. His complaint was he could not play his Madam Butterfly vinyl record because the stylus kept skipping the grooves with the thumping from my place. He was really bitter and twisted about it. I laughed at him and I took that as a compliment. There was a sense of achievement about that event.

My excesses have moderated ever so slightly over the years despite running an 700 watt per channel Yamaha P7000S on the woofers.

Haha ok, I guess I'm not losing my mind. I know I'm not always going to hit those peaks, I just want to know I can when the mood calls for it. "Klipschorn peaks." LoL. In this case, I'll wager they are of the K-horn variety and that I've never heard those of the JBL variety. "When the lights start dimming, you know it's working." Hah, that's great. Dark Side of the Moon. I very much enjoy listening to Time and Us and Them, pretty impressive if your neighbor couldn't play due to your bass. My lights certainly are not dimming yet, but fortunately the circuit everything is using is rated for 20A and not the normal 15A. I think that's the issue with my SPL meter, it's A weighted. From what I read, they don't respond much below 200hz. Excited to have better bass and higher SPL. Hopefully I won't lose too much fidelity in the process. So in terms of K-Horn SPL peaks, is 107 dB acceptable or would you be looking for just a bit more torque as well?

Well if the peaks are 107 at your listening distance is very loud.

But l think your listening will change once you get some real bass happening below 100 hertz.
You will be scared to turn it up to your current levels. It will be lick a rumble in the jungle. Be afraid, be very afraid…particularly if your in the can…Lol.

Good luck with your journey

Ian

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat

My lights certainly are not dimming yet, but fortunately the circuit everything is using is rated for 20A and not the normal 15A.

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I think Ian was kidding or speaking metaphorically. Obviously if you have a properly wired electrical system your lights won’t dim no matter how loud you play a system… think Metallica at a stadium gig. They are playing pretty damned loud and the lights are not dimming. ;) Then again in my misspent youth I did experience what Ian was describing when I lived in rentals with minimal wiring and undersized AC panels.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat

I think that's the issue with my SPL meter, it's A weighted. From what I read, they don't respond much below 200hz. Excited to have better bass and higher SPL. Hopefully I won't lose too much fidelity in the process. So in terms of K-Horn SPL peaks, is 107 dB acceptable or would you be looking for just a bit more torque as well?

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Again in my misspent youth at one time I had a system that I had assembled to go loud. It used a single Marantz 510 amp powering a pair of DIY pseudo JBL 030s that I built with K130s and EV T35As and a pair of DIYs with 2220s, LE85s, and 2405s. On one occasion I borrowed a calibrated SPL meter from the physics department at school and measured 127dB peaks at 1m and 116-120dB throughout the large room. Both measured on the A scale. I wasn’t wearing hearing protection and yes it was damned loud. Somehow I managed to survive and keep my hearing!

These days— 40+ years later there is no way I could tolerate that kind of SPL. Today I have better playback and measurement equipment and a little more sense. While I could hit levels north of 115dBA, I have no desire to do so and have not tried, but like you I occasionally like to air out the system and will blast the system at peaks above 100dBA. Depending on the musical content, switching to the dBC scale, the meter will usually jump 10dB or more. There is a lot of energy in the LF that the dBA scale ignores.

From my experiments, getting a system to play ridiculously loud for a brief time isn't that difficult assuming you have the watts and the drivers are fairly robust, but getting a system to play loudly and still sound good... that is another thing altogether. Look at a system like the 4350 or something with similar capabilities. Ideally you will have compression drivers with 4" diaphragms and enough high power woofers on the low end to pull it off without dynamic compression or distortion. Unfortunately these systems are not inexpensive, but a refurbished and tweaked PA system may be able to be coaxed into higher fidelity.


Widget

I actually did have the lights dimming with the big JBLs at someone’s 21st with some big lights.

The power wire out to the power pole was smoking. The Fire brigade came and shit happened.

Hello Derek

What kind of SPL meter do you have digital or analog??? If it's an analog meter style it's to damped to read the true peaks even on fast mode. A peak reading digital will be more accurate.

Rob :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Widget

I think Ian was kidding or speaking metaphorically. Obviously if you have a properly wired electrical system your lights won’t dim no matter how loud you play a system… think Metallica at a stadium gig. They are playing pretty damned loud and the lights are not dimming. ;) Then again in my misspent youth I did experience what Ian was describing when I lived in rentals with minimal wiring and undersized AC panels.


Again in my misspent youth at one time I had a system that I had assembled to go loud. It used a single Marantz 510 amp powering a pair of DIY pseudo JBL 030s that I built with K130s and EV T35As and a pair of DIYs with 2220s, LE85s, and 2405s. On one occasion I borrowed a calibrated SPL meter from the physics department at school and measured 127dB peaks at 1m and 116-120dB throughout the large room. Both measured on the A scale. I wasn’t wearing hearing protection and yes it was damned loud. Somehow I managed to survive and keep my hearing!

These days— 40+ years later there is no way I could tolerate that kind of SPL. Today I have better playback and measurement equipment and a little more sense. While I could hit levels north of 115dBA, I have no desire to do so and have not tried, but like you I occasionally like to air out the system and will blast the system at peaks above 100dBA. Depending on the musical content, switching to the dBC scale, the meter will usually jump 10dB or more. There is a lot of energy in the LF that the dBA scale ignores.

From my experiments, getting a system to play ridiculously loud for a brief time isn't that difficult assuming you have the watts and the drivers are fairly robust, but getting a system to play loudly and still sound good... that is another thing altogether. Look at a system like the 4350 or something with similar capabilities. Ideally you will have compression drivers with 4" diaphragms and enough high power woofers on the low end to pull it off without dynamic compression or distortion. Unfortunately these systems are not inexpensive, but a refurbished and tweaked PA system may be able to be coaxed into higher fidelity.


Widget

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"Misspent youth." Sounds like good times LoL. That's a good point, and I can only imagine how many amps are being pulled during a rock concert. Semi related: The lights do dim when the A/C kicks on. I think spring of next year will have me at least replacing the capacitor.

Wow, that is mighty impressive, especially from a single 510! Other than the slick appearance, meters and nostalgia, I didn't bond with the one I had. Very Bose like in the sense it sounded & performed great until it was compared to something else and something surprisingly much cheaper, coughcoughAdcomGFA555IIcoughcough. I will say that it shined the brightest when I had the Klipsch Cornwalls connected to it. Hardly saw the clip lights and it drove those speakers well enough to surprise me. Didn't stay that way for long as the Cornholes were destined for the garage.. Anyway, how long did you keep that DIY set up around and were you happy with it overall? If you still have any pics of them I'd like to see them. 120dB peaks are nuts. Funny how with dual amplifiers pushing 350+ watts I'm only able to achieve peaks of 107dB by comparison. One thing I've learned in this quest is just how important sensitivity is, looks like my speakers do need to change in order to go higher, like you and other members have mentioned. More food for thought is that I was using a Carver TFM 55x which I absolutely loved on midrange & top end duties. However, it has made pudding in it's trousers once again. And once again my shelved GFA 555II had to go in behind it. Despite being rated for 175 watts less than the Carver and never being serviced, it seems to drive the top end louder than the Carver. Both amps are described in their sales literature BS as being high current, but it looks like only the Adcom delivers. The Adcom is going a good job, but I prefer the sound of the Carver. However, I'm not sure it's worth fixing the Carver as I only got about a year out of it from the last time it was fixed. I was pretty shocked with the repair bill the first time it raped me.

"Airing out the system." Nicely put, and that's what I like to do/find myself doing on the occasions I pull the chair to the center of the room and jam. A lot of those times I start out listening to stuff like the Dire Straits because of how pretty it all sounds with about 1 watt or less. Then another tune comes on and somehow I find myself noticing clip lights, just keeps sounding better and better and I find myself wanting to feel the bass and and have my ear drum rattled just every so slightly by the high frequencies. Especially so with stuff I previously sneered at and figured I'd never actively listened to it, like Steve Miller. "Filler Steve Miller" my dad used to say, and me too. Then some years later I heard an older colleague say something along the lines of "There's a reason his '74 to '78 greatest hits album was a staple at many a party." That comment hit me as I found myself actually jamming Swing Town, Take the Money and Run, Rock 'N Me and The Stake. I previously figured I'd never listen to the first three by choice ever again. And yet there I was trying to be conscious of clip lights with Rock 'N Me and Take the Money. Something those XPL's do with the midbass to Miller's guitar and I have to hand it to him, the entire songs in general. I was hearing that "shit" as I've never heard it before. It suddenly wasn't shit and I understand what my colleague was trying to say. I ended up buying his stuff all remastered and there was a surprise version of Take the Money and Run, some sort of studio take. The guitar work in that is superb, I think I prefer that version just a smidge more than the original.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie

I actually did have the lights dimming with the big JBLs at someone’s 21st with some big lights.

The power wire out to the power pole was smoking. The Fire brigade came and shit happened.

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Whoa. You can't say that and then not tell the story. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Robh3606

Hello Derek

What kind of SPL meter do you have digital or analog??? If it's an analog meter style it's to damped to read the true peaks even on fast mode. A peak reading digital will be more accurate.

Rob :)

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Hi Rob! It's digital, a BAFX 3370. Has handy peak features for min & max, that's how I got my readings. Is there an affordable digital C weighted meter out there?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DerekTheGreat

Is there an affordable digital C weighted meter out there?

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Is $100 affordable? The Extech 407730 is fairly accurate and offers A and C scales as well as fast and averaging readings.

I just compared the one I have with my calibrated Class 1 meter that is accurate to +/- 0.1dB. The source was pink noise and I compared A and C scales on both devices.

The $100 meter was low by about 12dB on the A scale and about 14dB down on the C scale.


Widget
.

If you download and read this article and then obtain a copy of this book it will give you some useful insights and an understanding on increasing the dynamic range of a loudspeaker system.

https://s7a63f2c46e250b22.jimcontent...bl_english.pdf

The link in the forums stick is not working. Perhaps the Administrator can look into this.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...m_bibl_vppi_i1

Hi Mr. Widget,

$100 is affordable, but a wee bit expensive considering the low usage it'll see. It was down 12dB? I'm an idiot, but 12dB seems pretty excessive considering here I am trying to achieve an extra 5 to 10 dB. I think my meter was pretty cheap, <$50, and so that makes me wonder how inaccurate it is.

Hi Ian,

Thank you for the links. I shall feast my eyes reading on the history of JBL.

Well, while I was quiet here, this was happening in the background!:

Old XPL's made way for rusty jefferson's 813C's and custom B460 subwoofers!
Attachment 91225

Lifted from what I posted in rusty's D.C. Metro Area Meet-Up thread:
"
Glad Rusty came across my "Looking for subwoofer recommendations to pair with my XPL200's" thread. Because yep, got some subwoofers alright. :D Rusty and his wife are wonderful people, had a great time. Should be said that Rusty went above and beyond, because of him every piece of kit ended up in that trailer very well packed. I mean, he made custom jigs for us to keep them in place during transit! Not to mention all the time he took to school me on things, to dismantle the speakers and load them in the trailer with me. He even threw in his Carver amp, that blew me away. Truly a stand-up guy. Almost forgot, Mrs Jefferson got dougnuts for the listening party! Wish we could have stayed longer to B.S., but the road was beckoning and we were working off of one hour of sleep..
"

I've got less than two hours of total listening time in and am still making adjustments, but they kick a lot of ass. The Carver hasn't even touched the 60 watt mark on it's dials and yet that's given me 112+ dB, which is "Whoa!" loud to me. I was afraid to give it any more gas due to my poor ears and then my experiences with the XPL's, old stigmas die hard. Without having the final verdict ready, I have noticed the 813C's do some things much better than than the XPL's do, like midbass presentation and overall bass slam. Maybe a smidge tighter than the XPL's but also more authoritative and so tracks like "Never Been any Reason" by Head East or "The End" by The Beatles really hit you. It was like Ringo was kicking me in the chest. Loved it so much I had to listen twice. I also really enjoy live performances on the 813C's, sounds like you're there. I have yet to hook the BX63A into the rig, as I'm still using the Ashly XR4001(?) dual three way cross over. Reason being is I'm not sure my shit shack will be able to handle flat bass down to 30hz, so I want to compare. The Ashly allows me to filter out stuff below 40 at 2dB per octave. I can't do that with the BX63 and I think it adds +6db at 30hz to make the response flat? The manual doesn't go into detail about that, but also says I can't use things like the Ashly in conjunction with it, not sure why, but I intend to heed the warning. As it is, the bass is very enjoyable. Anxious to see what the BX63 does for it.

Anyway, still interested in the Citation 7.4 subwoofers and have a lead on two. However, the coffers are dry. Fortunately, that lead doesn't mind waiting until they refill. I should probably make a separate thread for the 813C's..

Bx-63 gives you +6 dB @ 26 Hz curve already posted.

Rob :)