almost full range enclosure for guitar build advice E140/E110/2213
Hi, first post here but I have read many many screenfulls from this great forum.
I've been playing around with different speaker combos for my guitar performances. I make a very full range sound, with pitched down bass frequencies, and even vocals running through the system, all running through a 120W Laney valve (tube) PA from 1969 which makes a sound I'm very happy with.
I started out with E120s which I love (I still have four) but the bass just isn't there, so I reinforced with an E140 in a non-ideal 1x15. It's okay for now, but there's major efficiency mismatches, so I'm running the E140 on 8Ω and E120s in a pair on 16Ω to compensate for the efficiency mismatch.
It's okay but I'd like to design a proper cab for shows, followed up with a second for bigger shows or when i want to work in stereo, which i sometimes do. So I'm thinking, can I combine the E140 with an E110 with a crossover and forget about having HF drivers as it's not really important for the sound I make? Looking at the specs, these two would seem to work okay in combo. What do others think?
I note the JBL full ranges for keyboard etc (Cabaret series for example) usually twin an 18" with a 10" or a 15" with an 8". Also, I'm having trouble locating an E110. Would a more available 2123 do the job? it matches the E140 in efficiency (101db to 100db). In building my cabinet i'll need to box around the 10" driver within the cabinet, is that right?
Many thanks,Toby
Almost full range concept
Hi, and welcome to the forum.
The full range pro speaker cabinet is very popular now and many 2-way and 3-way configurations are on the market. These are particularly popular as bass guitar cabinets. Slap bass style produces some extended frequencies, higher and lower, so this configuration works. With an E-140 you can build a good one. However, bass cabinets/speakers tend to resist break up and are generally considered too clean for many guitarists playing electric/distortion. If you are playing acoustic electric, it might work. What do you want it to do?
Using a small mid 6", 8" or 10 inch will bring some good highs for the guitar, but will not will not necessarily give you the crystal clear vocals of a horn. If its not enough, that's where the 3-way comes in. But that may be too much for the guitar. You are potentially looking at trade-offs here. If the speaker is behind you, feedback could become an issue. You could check out a 2-way bass cabinet at your local music shop to see if this is what you really want.
For building: the mid driver should be in a separate box within the speaker. The exact size depends on the crossover point between the low and mid driver, but they are generally less than 1 cubic foot. Have you used WINISD? The cubic volume for the mid box must be subtracted from the overall box volume to give the correct volume for the low driver. High pass and low pass filters would be a good idea to keep things clean.
Almost full range concept
Hi, and welcome to the forum.
The full range pro speaker cabinet is very popular now and many 2-way and 3-way configurations are on the market. These are particularly popular as bass guitar cabinets. Slap bass style produces some extended frequencies, higher and lower, so this configuration works. With an E-140 you can build a good one. However, bass cabinets/speakers tend to resist break up and are generally considered too clean for many guitarists playing electric/distortion. If you are playing acoustic electric, it might work. What do you want it to do?
Using a small mid 6", 8" or 10 inch will bring some good highs for the guitar, but will not will not necessarily give you the crystal clear vocals of a horn. If its not enough, that's where the 3-way comes in. But that may be too much for the guitar. You are potentially looking at trade-offs here. If the speaker is behind you, feedback could become an issue. You could check out a 2-way bass cabinet at your local music shop to see if this is what you really want.
For building: the mid driver should be in a separate box within the speaker. The exact size depends on the crossover point between the low and mid driver, but they are generally less than 1 cubic foot. Have you used WINISD? The cubic volume for the mid box must be subtracted from the overall box volume to give the correct volume for the low driver. High pass and low pass filters would be a good idea to keep things clean.
All you had to do was ask
Hi Parker Knoll , I have a New old Stock E110 in minty minty nick and a very old D130 (Alnico ) in almost minty nick. Send me a PM if you are interested and we can work something out.
I'm in Scotland :eek: so there may well be export duty.
Welcome to the forum .... Mac
PS Now that I think about it , you need this for a live sound application , I have a ready made box that will suit your needs perfectly. M
2 octaves will be below E140's Fs
Baron030's chart really demonstrates the limitations of small boxes. Additionally, you need to know that 2 octaves down from a guitar's E string is about 20 hz. Its going to be off the map, meaning you won't hear it. E 140's have an Fs of 32 hz. http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/thi...parameters.pdf You would really need the low filter to protect the transducer.
A small box will also impact the E and A string fundamentals. The charts show -3 db or worse until the mid 100's. You probably would have to equalize the highs down and lows up to make it work. You could get "icepick" highs otherwise.
I think you mentioned earlier, that you are overdriving the amps. It will have a larger impact as the frequency drops.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Baron030
Hi
Here is chart that shows why you can’t change the laws of physics. Pictured are 3 different enclosure sizes and they are all tuned to the same 40 Hz. As you can see the smaller the box the greater the roll off, so there is no way you are going to get really deep bass out of a small box using an E140 driver. It’s all about compromises between enclosure size and depth of bass. Since, you are using a device that can shift frequencies down 1 or 2 octaves. You might run into an issue with cone over excursion. Pictured below is a cone excursion plot with and without a sub-sonic filter. What happens at frequencies below the port tuning frequency is that the air loading on the cone to drops dramatically. This causes the cone to flop back and forth wildly without really generating a lot of sound. Oh, it may look impressive to seeing the cone flopping in and out, but you are not going to hear it. Here is a link to a sub-sonic filter that could be built to protect your drivers:
http://sound.westhost.com/project99.htm Baron030:)
Attachment 58481Attachment 58482
E120's have higher sensitivity
Speaker design for guitar is really a personal matter, so there's no right or wrong answer. If you get the sound you want, its right. If this were sound reinforcement or reproduction you would likely seek a flatter, uncolored response.
Having said that, the low end in the proposed system will be less than it could be. Baron030 already pointed out the the output drop below the mid 100 hz, but there's also a difference in sensitivity between E140's (100db) and E120's (103 db). http://www.jblpro.com/pub/components/eseries.pdf You will have to think about the difference in volume of what's coming out of the E120's and the frequencies rolled off by the E140 cabinet. If you play harmonics on the G B and E strings on the seventh fret or above, those tones are going to cut through the mix. The crossover point will make a difference as to where the difference in volume occurs, but doesn't necessarily solve the problem.
Again, whether this is good or bad, isn't decided on paper. Its up to you and your audience.
You could add attenuation to the crossover to give it flexibility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
parker_knoll
I'm using E120s crossover over for the mids and highs, so that should avoid the icepick.
It looks like the speaker itself is roughly 6 litres volume, less when front mounted. if i go for a box with internal dimensions of 60cm x 50cm x 40cm that gives me 120 litres, which, less the speaker, delivers pretty much 4 cubic feet. I think i can work that, and it doesn't seem overly small. it works with Baron's graphs. would you define that as a small box?
As i said i have the low filter so that's all good.