Excessive burned tinsel leads 2241h

Lisa just asked me if I had posted about my excessive tinsel lead burning in half problem on the 2241's at work?

NO, I haven't posted it, dear.

I called the gurus at JBL technical services who answered he didn't know either. So he called down to someone else who ultimately told me that the tinsel leads are too long.

BUT, the new C8R2241 kits that I received in September now come with a new red/black push button terminal block that is made for use with the new crimped-on push on tinsel lead terminals. Thereby, no need for a soldering iron.

But, If you are smarter than Momma JBL, and cut the stakeon connector off, and solder as usual...everything fine.

Mostly, I have been replacing the factory tinsel with aftermarket lead of a thicker variety, and installing two tinsel leads on each end of the vc winding with a gentle twist crimped to the alum voice coil lead and reglued back through the cone to the push buttons.

Question: Why are 2241's always laying down in the too thin tinsel lead area, or tinsel to voice coil connection?

It seems that a working pro woofer should be more skookum than this.

Please respond with your advice or counsel.

Thanks,
Scott.

ps. Now you know why I didn't ask?

Part of the issue is the composition of the solder required to tin / attach the newer aluminum based tinsel wires. Unless you use the super expensive solder that JBL sells ( and *requires* for the correct recone ) for this a metal / bonding issue can result causing the lead wires to burn out at the point where the solder wicks into the lead. Yes... and catch FIRE....

The earliest JBL vented gap cones ( 1990 ) used copper-based tinsel wires and they soon discovered mechanical issues with them and were changed in early 1992.

Remember the videos that showed the early space age rockets that lifted off only 100ft and dropped back down?? Classic example of vibration dynamics playing havoc with lead/tin soldered leadwires. Physics loves nobody and I have seen many a JBL woofer with damaged leadwires and little other problems.

Since the majority of amplifiers are well beyond the 150 watt/ch old age crown / BGW's and many DJ's now transport their gear in cars and minivans ( not 24ft uhauls of old ) they expect a SINGLE 18 a side to re-arrange particle matter across a banquet hall with hip-hop and cry momma when the 5000 watt crown kills their beloved woofers....

Like an ER doctor the reconing guys only see the damage - not the cause.

If the leadwires are burning, 4X the number of cone area for your system and they will live a long, productive life.....

sub

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SMKSoundPro

Lisa just asked me if I had posted about my excessive tinsel lead burning in half problem on the 2241's at work?

NO, I haven't posted it, dear.

I called the gurus at JBL technical services who answered he didn't know either. So he called down to someone else who ultimately told me that the tinsel leads are too long.

BUT, the new C8R2241 kits that I received in September now come with a new red/black push button terminal block that is made for use with the new crimped-on push on tinsel lead terminals. Thereby, no need for a soldering iron.

But, If you are smarter than Momma JBL, and cut the stakeon connector off, and solder as usual...everything fine.

Mostly, I have been replacing the factory tinsel with aftermarket lead of a thicker variety, and installing two tinsel leads on each end of the vc winding with a gentle twist crimped to the alum voice coil lead and reglued back through the cone to the push buttons.

Question: Why are 2241's always laying down in the too thin tinsel lead area, or tinsel to voice coil connection?

It seems that a working pro woofer should be more skookum than this.

Please respond with your advice or counsel.

Thanks,
Scott.

ps. Now you know why I didn't ask?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by subwoof

Part of the issue is the composition of the solder required to tin / attach the newer aluminum based tinsel wires. Unless you use the super expensive solder that JBL sells ( and *requires* for the correct recone ) for this a metal / bonding issue can result causing the lead wires to burn out at the point where the solder wicks into the lead. Yes... and catch FIRE....

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Yep... but the thing is, ANY competent reconing shop SHOULD already have aluminum solder, as a matter of practice. Not only JBL, but EV and other manufacturers ALSO have aluminum leads... so any reconing shop that does any sort of real pro work at ALL, will be seeing this situation on a regular basis... and SHOULD have the proper parts to deal with it. I can tell you from first-hand experience, it's not rocket science!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by subwoof

Since the majority of amplifiers are well beyond the 150 watt/ch old age crown / BGW's and many DJ's now transport their gear in cars and minivans ( not 24ft uhauls of old ) they expect a SINGLE 18 a side to re-arrange particle matter across a banquet hall with hip-hop and cry momma when the 5000 watt crown kills their beloved woofers....

Like an ER doctor the reconing guys only see the damage - not the cause.

If the leadwires are burning, 4X the number of cone area for your system and they will live a long, productive life.....

sub

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Agree 10000 percent.

It's amazing how many DJs we see here in the shop, OVER and OVER, with the SAME woofers blown. We always advise two things:

1) if you don't have a COMPRESSOR on the mains, then GET ONE.

2) GET MORE SUBWOOFERS. Yes, it means more setup... but it's the ONLY way the system will perform properly...

Amazing also, how many of them just ignore the advice... and we wind up reconing their woofers once a month...

Regards,
Gordon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GordonW

1) if you don't have a COMPRESSOR on the mains, then GET ONE.

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In the case of DJ's, I'd actually recommend a LIMITER, (though compressors can often be set up to act like one).

John

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GordonW

Yep... but the thing is, ANY competent reconing shop SHOULD already have aluminum solder, as a matter of practice. Not only JBL, but EV and other manufacturers ALSO have aluminum leads... so any reconing shop that does any sort of real pro work at ALL, will be seeing this situation on a regular basis... and SHOULD have the proper parts to deal with it. I can tell you from first-hand experience, it's not rocket science!





Agree 10000 percent.

It's amazing how many DJs we see here in the shop, OVER and OVER, with the SAME woofers blown. We always advise two things:

1) if you don't have a COMPRESSOR on the mains, then GET ONE.

2) GET MORE SUBWOOFERS. Yes, it means more setup... but it's the ONLY way the system will perform properly...

Amazing also, how many of them just ignore the advice... and we wind up reconing their woofers once a month...

Regards,
Gordon.

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I concur....see it all the time.

"But aren't compressor/limiters expensive?"

:blink:

Yes, I agree with all your advice so far.

I'll find some aluminum solder.

I have a dbx 166 available for a limiter.

I am currently building 4719 clones to double the drivers in both dance floors. I need 2241 baskets, or drivers to complete the project. Any ideas besides fighting for them on ebay?

Scott.

Mr. Scott, You can't defy the laws of physics.
Pumping 1.21 gigawatts into a 2241 and she's going to blow...

I know I am just kidding with you a bit here. For we all know that you can't be pushing that much power into a 2241.:rotfl:

But, seriously, I went back and re-read some of your posts to try to understand your problem. And it sounds to me like you have a dance club system that is in need of a lot more drivers. Or possibly a DJ that need to be fired. Maybe, even both.

Could you clarify for me and everyone else, exactly what is in your dance club system? Because, in one of your posts, I thought you were describing two different sound systems.:confused:

Maybe, with some additional information, an inexpensive solution to your sub woofer failures can be found.

Baron030 :)

Hello
A peak limiter or a compressor set with an infinity to 1 ratio will only protect so far. If the threshold on the limiter/comp is set at the systems very edge before destruction and the limiter is driven hard into limiting for any length of the the average power is actually raised since the dynamic range of the music is squeezed into nothing. For that matter most pop/contemporary music is already heavily compressed. Unfortunalty there is really no full or fool proof way to protect a system.

Mike Caldwell

I just got a new (old stock) 2242HPL from JBL and noticed that the tinsel leads are coated in a black, hard material. I hear it's a thermal coating to disapate heat I suppose. I'm concerned because that coating make the leads quite stiff! I suspect that the leads are going to need to bend...quite extensivley!
Should I be concerned about this? Do I have an option of removing any of that coating...since I won't be pushing 1000 watts into this driver?
Suggestions?

Thanks,

Tom

Hello Tom

I wouldn't do a thing to them. Power it up to break it in a bit and see if they naturally loosen up. If they break it's a waranty repair.

Rob:)

Dear Members,

1. 2242hpl apparently come with some new insulated tinsel leads. Probably a good idea. Ain't broke, don't fix it.

2. Our DJ in question definitely has a hole in his hearing. But, he packs the dancefloor with his club mixes he makes during his day job as the #1 rated DJ at KGOT radio station here in Anchorage. He is a draw. He is 46, same as me and does have a brain about the nightclub business. Keep the floor packed, free promotions...

3. Room dimensions 30 X 30 dance floor. Speakers in each corner, DJ booth in fourth corner. A single 18 in a sub box, 2206 & 2404 above mounted on wall. Short 9' ceiling. Whole room covered in cedar t&g planking. A really cozy little room. STUFFED with people dancing all of the time Fri & Sat.

4. I have put in a dbx 2215 eq with peak limiting which he Scott Martin, liked for a while, then dialed the peak limiter out. (back to square one.) I know...security rack covers.

5. Using mackie amps now, and changing over to crown macro 1200s and 3600 for subs. Have been advised to use 2400 for himids, and 5000 for subs. ("it's all about the benjamin")

6. Ordered some aluminum solder from a recone supplier, who guarantees it works.

I think that covers all of your questions.

Scott.
ps. I know that maybe I don't fit the mold of this forum exactly, not haing a big living room audiophile stereo, and I play music for large parties and crowds,But I am as passionate about JBL speakers and getting others to enjoy music as it was meant to sound.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SMKSoundPro

Dear Members,

1. 2242hpl apparently come with some new insulated tinsel leads. Probably a good idea. Ain't broke, don't fix it.

A single 18 in a sub box, 2206 & 2404 above mounted on wall...

5. Using mackie amps now, and changing over to crown macro 1200s and 3600 for subs...

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Yes, I'll use the 2242HPL as is, but I'm a little concerned that the stiff leads won't allow the cone to move properly or cause the leads to break.
A SINGLE 18 sub?!! I guess you need at least 4!
Yes, the better amps will make that room sound better, and probably be easier on the sub then the Mackie was.

Tom

Hello
Where do you crossover from the 2206 into the 2404? In high output systems a 2404 or any tweeter for that matter is usually on top of a compression driver making a four way system. Also
do you have high pass filter in place on your system, maybe around 30hz. If I'm not not mistaken the Mackie has one built in. Crown MA3600's are great amps, I use them for the low end in my PA system. If your having trouble now with sub speaker failure the 3600 is a lot more amp than any Mickie. I would get a PIP input card for the amp, I have the EDCb cards in mine. They offer high pass filtering and clip limiting. The 3600 can draw a fair amount of current and come with a 30 amp plug on the line cord. Not something to plug into and out with a bunch or other equipment on it. I would have a dedicated circuit for it.

Mike Caldwell