center channel to go with 250ti's

[shillyar]

hello,

I was looking at getting some 250ti's and i need a center channel to match the quality.

someone mention use the big array center but, i have a hard time spending 3500 on a center channel. Im open to complete kits as well

side and rears are jbl synthesis s4 and 2 infinity ssw-210 subs. AMPs are jbl s800's. Room size is 22x50x10 1/2 of the area is tv viewing area rest is the kitchen

any thoughts ?

[Zilch]

Synthesis center?

[baldrick]

In my honest opinion the most important thing in a surround setup is to have "equal sounding" speakers in all channels. Synthesis and TIs are NOT equal sounding speakers, and are therefore in my ears not a good couple.

I recently sold my JBL HT1 system and the absolutely best thing about that system is that it uses 5 identical equiped speakers. It's hard to describe how big differens this really makes, but belive me it does. If you have not equal speakers you WILL hear when the sound travels from one speaker to another, but when you have identical speakers you will hardly hear this at all :)

So what I would do is either go for Synthesis in all channels or buy another set of TIs in the back and build a TI center as well :) And as you probably know, 240TI and 120TI uses the same speaker as the (older) 250TI so you don't have to buy 2 (expensive) pairs of 250s but you could manage with the cheaper 120/240 ;)

[shillyar]

well i had 7 s4's but they just dont cut it as my room is to big for the s4's per the calibration guy.

i am not to worried about the side and rear as there fine im just concerned with the 3 fronts. mainly the center channel and im about to plop down money for some classic 250ti's so i want to make sure i have my i's cross this one last time.

I prefer hozintal but it can be vertical and i have alot of room as i have built a sub wall to make everything look flush.

thx

[shillyar]

I was looking for info on the 240ti and 120ti and looks like there pretty rare these days. I did find a pair in europe that look like they need work and i cant read the add :/ did these come in blk laquer like the 250ti's ?

if i found a pair i guess i could stick them on there side on top of the TV and use the 2 for the center channel ? or maybe i could just find a pair and make a new box for em ?


thx

[baldrick]

120TI and 240TI did not came in black am I afraid, I think they were only available in oild walnut!

There were recently a pair of 240TI for sale in Norway and according to the seller he wanted 6000NOK ($900) for them, they were almost mint condition:

http://images.aucland.com/ImgUsers/0/23/2348/234892/23489294_Big.jpg

[MJC]

mixing speakers is not a good thing, and really not, when you're talking about expensive ones like the Ti's. Like GT sez, 5 Identical speakers is best.

[Mr. Widget]

I prefer hozintal but it can be vertical and i have alot of room as i have built a sub wall to make everything look flush.Building the 250Tis into a flush wall, will dramatically affect their sound. I doubt it will be for the better.

I agree with those that said you should get identical speakers up front. The 240Ti would be close, but ideally you could get an ugly pair of 250Tis and rework one cab. Don't use two speakers for the center unless you really know what you're doing. It is highly unlikely you will improve the sound by doubling up.

Are you sure 250Tis are what you want for a large HT?


Widget

[shillyar]

Well to be honest i dont know what i want. I had some 250ti limited edition that i loved and they sounded great but they were not built into a wall. I moved and made the mistake of selling them. I decided to go to inwalls for some strange reason I guess for the clean look look but' they dont really sound any where close to the 250's I found a paid of 250ti classic in blk laquer that id really like to have as the mains. I just never thought putting them flush in a wall would hurt the sound. there is alot of air room behind it so it not like its a an air tight back. I figured id wait to find a pair of 240's and use em for the center and i could call it a day. I was plaining on running 900 watts into each side of the 250's and proably 200 or 900 into a center channel.

I take it im in left field here tring to get something that goona works in a large room.

Id like to stick with the jbl sk2 1000dg and the 5800's or 9800's but the relality is i dont have 15k+ to spend on 3 speakers.

[porschedpm]

Ideally for the center you'd want to use a speaker that is very similar to the 250Ti. The only choices I think would be the 120Ti which IMHO is pretty big to use as a center, and the 240Ti which is about twice the size as the 120Ti. The 18Ti, which is definitely small enough, I don't think would be appropriate since the only driver it shares with the other Ti Series speakers is the 044Ti tweeter. None of the Ti Series speakers are magnetically shielded. Perhaps a better route to go would be to use the XPL200A's for the Fronts and Rears and either the XPL90A's or XPL140A's as the center. They each share at least two drivers with the XPL200A. You might also consider the Performance Series for your surround system. It seems the PS Series were designed to be part of a either a two channel or a surround system. And there is a dedicated center channel available.

[MJC]

I decided to go to inwalls for some strange reason I guess for the clean look look but' they dont really sound any where close to the 250's I found a paid of 250ti classic in blk laquer that id really like to have as the mains. I just never thought putting them flush in a wall would hurt the sound. there is alot of air room behind it so it not like its a an air tight back.

In-walls or in-ceiling(even worse) will never produce the sound of floorstanding speakers.
One of the reasons the 250Ti sounds so good is its baffle shape. If you compare the L212 to the 250 you'll see the natural progression. The L212 was JBL's first time aligned speaker, as well as their most accurate, to that point in time.
JBL then refined the L212 concept by changing the baffle so the tweeter doesn't see an infinite baffle, as the 212 was, to a baffle that gets narrower as it gets to the tweeter, as you know. The 250, still time aligned, then gets a sloping baffle as well as being a mirror imaged pair, add the quality of the speakers used and xover, and you've got one great speaker system.
But as soon as you put that baffle into a flush enviroment you have lost half of the equation.

[Mr. Widget]

In-walls or in-ceiling(even worse) will never produce the sound of floorstanding speakers.
One of the reasons the 250Ti sounds so good is its baffle shape. If you compare the L212 to the 250 you'll see the natural progression. You and I have discussed this before, with me suggesting that custom L212s could be improved with narrower baffles and or some sound absorbent material around the drivers on the baffles.

Here is an excerpt from a recent post that Mr. Timbers posted comparing the XPL200 and the 4315.


The XPL will be considerably more 3-dimensional due to the narrower baffle and neoprene covering.
Food for thought.

Widget

[4313B]

You and I have discussed this before, with me suggesting that custom L212s could be improved with narrower bafflesOr mounted in-wall as per Drew Daniels and others (Remember, they were measured while mounted in "the pit"). Anyway, the neoprene is a good idea as are narrower baffles. The vertical array off-centerline also helps. These tips might all be easier than simply mounting them into walls, which we've also done to staggering effect for HT. The L212 is one of those JBL systems that I've given "extra" attention to since it first came out. The number of custom installations using them and their components is fairly impressive.

You might also consider the Performance Series for your surround system.Bingo! Unless you have a nice big perf screen the "conventional" stuff is a bit more difficult to incorporate. G.T. has alread done it for you. He knows what he's doing and the PC600 works.

[Titanium Dome]

(snip)
Bingo! Unless you have a nice big perf screen the "conventional" stuff is a bit more difficult to incorporate. G.T. has alread done it for you. He knows what he's doing and the PC600 works.

Yes, I can bear witness to that. It's quite the center, and it's got that beautiful 904Ti midrange.

Earlier someone queried "Synthesis center?" (Zilch, was that you?) The PC600 does have an inwall incarnation as the Synthesis Four System's S4HC.

http://www.jblsynthesis.com/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=S4HC&Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA

[MJC]

You and I have discussed this before, with me suggesting that custom L212s could be improved with narrower baffles and or some sound absorbent material around the drivers on the baffles.
Food for thought.

Widget

My point in my last post was how JBL progressed to the L250/250Ti, as I see it, with its angled baffle. And why it wouldn't be a good thing to mount them flush to a wall(into).

I have NO problem with the 212s, as I am currently using them, including the three front units I built, with the L/R being mirror imaged and the center 10" lower and tilted back 5*.

I also see how JBL's thought process changed concerning the 212's baffle, at whatever point in time that was. Being the complete set I bought 18 months ago has foam glued to the inside of the grille cloth with holes cut out for the 066 and le5-9.

But I find JBL's original thought process at least interesting: "The width of the cabinet is designed to create a front baffle surface that is effectively infinite for the high frequency radiator, and substantially large for the 5- and 8" loudspeakers, to minimize diffraction effects that could cause phase and imaging problems." That statement was from the L212 brochure.
And the fact that they used a xover that only had a rolloff of 6db/octave, totally unheard of today.

In my opinion, the HT setup I have, 7 L212s, 4 of which are mounted on the walls for the surrounds(the side units upside down), the L/R mirror imaged, each with it own B212, plus 2 sub1500s powered by a Crown K2 is hard to beat. And of course, its still better than most for music. At the very least I'd have to get a PS system to have better.

[Mr. Widget]

My point in my last post was how JBL progressed to the L250/250Ti...Oh, I know... it was just that your post reminded me of what GT had just posted and how we had discussed this very topic.



I have NO problem with the 212s, as I am currently using them...That's cool. Do you do much dedicated two channel listening with a two channel all analog system, i.e. no surround processor or receiver? In a case like that I think it would make a big difference, but in a surround system I doubt it would be nearly as significant and the system you have described sounds very cool.


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[MJC]

Oh, I know... it was just that your post reminded me of what GT had just posted and how we had discussed this very topic.

That's cool. Do you do much dedicated two channel listening with a two channel all analog system, i.e. no surround processor or receiver? In a case like that I think it would make a big difference, but in a surround system I doubt it would be nearly as significant and the system you have described sounds very cool.


Widget
Yes, I do listen to 2 channel with that system, H/K AVR635, surround turned off, or 5, or 7 channel stereo. Plus a SACD/DVD audio via analog out.
The other system is L55s connected to a Marantz HT receiver.
I've got an old Yamaha stereo amp '79, but the pre-amp in it is shot, or the input selector is gone again. It was supposedly repaired in the late '80's, but I'd bet they only cleaned the connections, because it didn't last too long.

[shillyar]

Ok dumb question, be gental

what is the differnce if i put these 250ti up against a wall ie 6-8 infrom the back of the wall or i slide in into a false wall with the back wide open ? estetics is my reseasoning for wanting yo do this as the 65" is flush with the wall and it would dumb and ugly if i didnt do this but, i also dont want to waste the money that im gonan spend on these either

i do have a sdec2500a that will get professioanlly calibrated when i get done with this mess
thx

[Mr. Widget]

what is the differnce if i put these 250ti up against a wall ie 6-8 infrom the back of the wall or i slide in into a false wall with the back wide open...If I were you, I'd buy some speakers with no cost return privileges. You really will need to try before you buy. Your application isn't "normal" so your results will be unpredictable. You might even consider some good in-wall speakers.

The 250Tis are excellent speakers when used properly. I don't think they should be 6-8" from the walls... they sound best like most other speakers when they have some breathing room. Crowding them near walls will cause bass peaks and mess up their imaging. If you can test drive the 250Tis that would be best.

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[shillyar]

Hi Guys,

I have made my decision and I am going to get some 250ti classics for my L and R. I just look on audigon and i found a pair of limited 250ti's

The price seems a bit high as they need refoaming but i dont have enough vertical hight to put em on top of the TV

How much of a difference would it make if i used 2 250ti's horizontal as a center channel ? and just build a shelf between the 2 so it would look like a big rectangle when done,

Then I have matching speakers :)

Then the other problem is can I get away with runing 900W to L and R and only 200 to each center ? or is there a way to series these 2 and then cut em back down to 6 ohms ? then they will all be running at 900 ?

Thx

[jblnut]

You really need to rethink this...

As many have been trying to tell you, the 250Ti is from the 2-channel era. That's why I have a "vintage" 2-channel setup in one room with the 250Ti's, and a more modern 5.1 setup in other (with 4410/L20T3). I still don't have a "correct" matching center either but it's not a big deal to me. While it doesn't have the seamless panning you get with matching speakers, it still sounds great for what I listen to most - concert DVD's.

Trying to fit two 250ti's on their side is just silly overkill.
If you have that kind of money to toss around, just commission one of the excellent speaker builders on this forum to make you a custom center with matching components. The parts are rare but not impossible to get.

My $.02...

jblnut





Hi Guys,

I have made my decision and I am going to get some 250ti classics for my L and R. I just look on audigon and i found a pair of limited 250ti's

The price seems a bit high as they need refoaming but i dont have enough vertical hight to put em on top of the TV

How much of a difference would it make if i used 2 250ti's horizontal as a center channel ? and just build a shelf between the 2 so it would look like a big rectangle when done,

Then I have matching speakers :)

Then the other problem is can I get away with runing 900W to L and R and only 200 to each center ? or is there a way to series these 2 and then cut em back down to 6 ohms ? then they will all be running at 900 ?

Thx

[Zilch]

How much of a difference would it make if i used 2 250ti's horizontal as a center channel ? and just build a shelf between the 2 so it would look like a big rectangle when done,

Then I have matching speakers :)Whatever you're smokin', it's good etiquette to share.... :thmbsup:

[Won't work. Can't have multiple sources playing the same program material and expect it to sound worth a whit....]

[shillyar]

i dont get this statement what do u mean ?

[Won't work. Can't have multiple sources playing the same program material and expect it to sound worth a whit....]

[Mr. Widget]

What Zilch is saying is that if you use two loudspeakers as a center it will sound worse than a single unit. I agree. I think I already said something along those lines on one of your threads.


Widget