L100T crossover Capacitor Upgrade

[L100t Owner]

I just typed a very long post and lost it:banghead:

OK, here we go again. This is my first post here. I heard about this forum over at the Klipsch forums. My first real speakers were JBL L60T's that I bought new in 1989 and just sold last year. I really wanted L100T's but could not afford them back then. As luck would have it, I just picked up a mint set of them about a week ago.

When I grew up, L250's and K Horns were the Holy Grail of speakers (and the L100's and various studio monitors when I was a kid). K Horns appeared for sale locally several years ago and I bought them and went in that direction. I now have K Horns, Belles, and Heresys for horns, as well as some small Maggies and the JBL's.

I am a 2 channel guy and have my K Horns tri-amped using an active crossover. I am finalizing a deal to sell the K Horns and I am getting ready to assemble my lasest project, consisting of factory built Speakerlab K Horn bass bin clones, JBL 2470 compression drivers monted on Altec 511B's and JBL 2404 "Baby Cheeks." Its funny how us Klipsch guys eventualy seem to all use JBL and Altec drivers and horns (and Edgar designed horns too).:applaud:

Anyway, I have built ALK crossovers for my K Horns using Solen and Hovland caps before. Klipsch speakers always see a major improvement when the old caps are replaced or the old crossovers are replaced with a new design using fresh caps.

I am having my woofers re-foamed and took the speakers apart to put on a fresh coat of linseed oil. While I have them apart I want to rebuild the crossovers.

My L100T's crossovers have what look like large value (14, 17 and 40 uF) electrolytics bypassed with very small tear drop caps (0.1 uF) and anemic looking inductors. Typical stuff for production crossovers. Solen makes some very nice solid core and Litz inductors but I don't want to spend that much here.

I do think that replacing the caps with some new Solens should help the speakers. Because they are poly caps they should not need to be bypassed.

Solen makes 3.0 uF, 13 uF, 16 uF and 39 uF caps so it looks like I will need to bypass everything but the 3.0 with 1.0 uF's. The Solen's are going to be much larger, but I can just mount them on another board with jumper wires if necesary.

I know that the Solen's are good caps for the price and they are rather forward too. This is not a problem with horns because if set up properly, everyhting in the signal path has been picked with horns in mind so no harshness is present.

My concern here is that I am using the L100T's in an exercise room with an old Denon receiver (same one I bougth in 1989 and drove the L60T's with). Not exactly a great source, but the JBL's are much more forgiving than horns and have a nice mellow sound.

Has anyone here used Solens with these speakers? How are the results? I want to see an improvement if I do this.

Are their any new DIY crossover designs that I should be considering. This is for an exercise room so I do not need the ultimate, just good sound.

What do you guys think?

Thanks,

Chris

[rek50]

This link will give you the low down on some X/O specs. http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5784&highlight=L88

My ears have been happy with Dayton caps bypassed with .01 uF AudioCap Thetas from "Parts Express"

Some think Solens are "Bright" others like them. A search on Capacitors, Bypass Capacitors, Biased Networks, L100T... will yeild more information in one hour, than you could forget in a week. Sometimes the "Answer" isn't as "Easy" as it seems:) .

[JuniorJBL]

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=684&highlight=l100t

[duaneage]

This link will give you the low down on some X/O specs. http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5784&highlight=L88

My ears have been happy with Dayton caps bypassed with .01 uF AudioCap Thetas from "Parts Express"

Some think Solens are "Bright" others like them. A search on Capacitors, Bypass Capacitors, Biased Networks, L100T... will yeild more information in one hour, than you could forget in a week. Sometimes the "Answer" isn't as "Easy" as it seems:) .

That is a good thread. I spent some time saving most of that on my drive. I can't tell you how many times I refer to it to see what went into what.

[rek50]

"That is a good thread"...ABBASOLUTELY, I'm so sick, I've made copies of some NetWorks and study them while on the crapper.:blink:

[4313B]

Biased Solens.

[L100t Owner]

Biased Solens? Not sure what you mean.

My question is should I just use Solen caps? It seems to be a matter of taste.

I also cannot see a reason to bypass poly caps (unless I am using a much higher quality cap to bypass with).

Am I missing somehting here?

By the way, thanks for the schematics.

Chris

[Zilch]

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3555

[doodlebug]

My question is should I just use Solen caps? It seems to be a matter of taste.

I also cannot see a reason to bypass poly caps (unless I am using a much higher quality cap to bypass with).

Am I missing somehting here?

Chris

I just went down this same road with a set of JBL 4425s. I ended up using Dayton caps along with .01mf bypass caps on each large cap - the original way that JBL did it. Do a search on my name and you'll see the discussion here.

I've used Solens in the past with good success on a set of UREI 809s, as well. All nice caps. There are as many opinions on the boutique-ness of caps by brand name, so I'll not go there. Suffice it to say, though, that I've observed the same effect on both speaker systems with different brands of caps: The high frequency output went up so that I had to readjust the output levels. Also, the quality of the amplification you are using will have an effect on what/how you hear the changes.

Just my experiences.....

Cheers,

David

[L100t Owner]

I just went down this same road with a set of JBL 4425s. I ended up using Dayton caps along with .01mf bypass caps on each large cap - the original way that JBL did it. Do a search on my name and you'll see the discussion here.

I've used Solens in the past with good success on a set of UREI 809s, as well. All nice caps. There are as many opinions on the boutique-ness of caps by brand name, so I'll not go there. Suffice it to say, though, that I've observed the same effect on both speaker systems with different brands of caps: The high frequency output went up so that I had to readjust the output levels. Also, the quality of the amplification you are using will have an effect on what/how you hear the changes.

Just my experiences.....

Cheers,

David

What brand of 0.01 mF caps do you use to bypass, where can you get them and how much are they?

The ones that are currently in my crossovers are worn out and need to be replaced, right?

0.01 uF seems like an awefully low value. What voltage value do you use (it must be high)?

Thanks,

Chris

[L100t Owner]

These Dayton caps are cheap! I'm used to looking at Auricaps and Hovlands for use with horns where Solens are considered the cheap caps.

Are the Dayton's similar to the Solens, or do they work better with bass reflex drivers?

I may decide to go very cheap and use electrolytics for the hiogher values and bypass with poly's. What electrolytics have been use dwith sucess around here?

Thanks,

Chris

[4313B]

Biased Solens.

[Uncle Paul]

I'm detecting a subtle pattern... :hmm:

[L100t Owner]

Biased Solens.

Please let me know what you mean by Biased Solens.

I have used their poly Fast Caps before with horns with great sucess.

Are you refering to Bennic electrolytics availabel on teh Solen site (because they have a + and a - so they are "biased"

Are you telling me to get Solen Polys and no bypass caps? I will need to use a parallel cap to reach the 14, 17 and 40 uF values.

Please respond with more than two words:D

Thanks,

Chris

[L100t Owner]

Gizzard,

I looked at a network that you built that you referred to as a biased network. Nice job on the construction. Can you explain the concept of a biased network? How about a wiring diagram for the L100T.

Here is a set of ALK networks that I built for my K Horns (I am going to use them with my Belles ass I now use a Yamaha D2040 dividing network and have teh K Horns Tri-amped.

OK - I cant load teh image from my hard drive. I built them out of marble and brass on a CNC machine. They sit outside of the speakers and look pretty cool. I used Solen Fast Caps, Hovlands and Solen inductors (Litz for the high end and solid core for the woofer).
Chris

[Zilch]

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3555

[4313B]

GizzardYes Christina?

[L100t Owner]

Yes Christina?

LMAO!!

I read that and was wondering "What's the matter with this guy? I heard that people on other audio sites had attitudes."

Then I figured it out. I couldn't read your name when I was posting.

Fair enough.

OK, I read about the biased networks. Are their any schematics of biased networks available for use with L100T's?

Chris

[Blaster]

Does anyone have a tried and true crossover upgrade for this thread?? I would like to build 4 new higher power crossovers for my 100T's and T3's. Is anyone using the heavy foil inductors?

[Robh3606]

He's refering to Charge Coupled Networks. Here is one of the original posts. Do a search for Charge Coupled Networks there are several threads. Don't mess with the inductors unless you match the DCR's or understand what the changes will do. Just grab a schematic and figure it out. It's not all that difficult. To convert you need 2 caps with twice the original value in series with a 3 meg resistor tied to a 9 volt battery between the caps. Battery ground goes to system ground. Look at the example in the attached thread.

Rob:)

http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=43&page=1&pp=15&highlight=Charge+Coupled+Networks

[L100t Owner]

I don't have any experiance with foil inductors, but AL K. at teh Klipsch forum did extensive testing of many inductors. He found that the Solen solids worked very well for woofers and the Litz wire worked very well elsewhere.

Chris

[JuniorJBL]

Don't mess with the inductors unless you match the DCR's or understand what the changes will do.

Rob:)

http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=43&page=1&pp=15&highlight=Charge+Coupled+Networks

You are dealing with the most knowledgeable people on JBL's here. Just because someone else says it works best does not mean they truly know how to design a crossover. The work has already been done for you, all you have to do is build it.

If you do know about dcr,impedence curves,notch filters :blah: , then you should be able to design your own crossovers anyways.

I am not trying to be rude, I am just saying people here most likely have "Already done it".

There is more info on this site about JBL & Altec that would choke a Mack truck.
As was said before Charge-coupled networks will yeild about the best cost effective network for this speaker that could be had.

If you have a $1000.00 dollars to spend on networks then you could go ahead and use Hovlands and litz and mills and yes it would be better.
But would it be 6 or 700 hundred better? That is a choice you must make.;)

[L100t Owner]

This link will give you the low down on some X/O specs. http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5784&highlight=L88

My ears have been happy with Dayton caps bypassed with .01 uF AudioCap Thetas from "Parts Express"

Some think Solens are "Bright" others like them. A search on Capacitors, Bypass Capacitors, Biased Networks, L100T... will yeild more information in one hour, than you could forget in a week. Sometimes the "Answer" isn't as "Easy" as it seems:) .

REK,

OK - I have read up on this. I am going to just replace the caps with the stock values. I am just using these speakers in a work out room and don't want to sink that much into them.

The Daytons should work fine. They also make small value film and foil caps for bypassing that are inexpensive.

I'm just wondering if I should use all Daytons or a combo of Daytons and electrolytes (the small sized caps used by JBL look like electrolytes - they were electrolytes right?)

Thanks,

Chris

[4313B]

I read that and was wondering "What's the matter with this guy? I heard that people on other audio sites had attitudes."Like it would somehow help to know what was the matter with me? :coolness:

Gizzard was a word one of my uncles used to try and work into a sentence fairly often. It was usually funny.

Solen solidsI've pretty much settled on Solen Perfect Lay coils. I've tried the foils and wasn't blown away. Erse coils are nice for large values on LF transducers. JBL thought they were really nice. I didn't care much for the hepta-litz coils but I only used them on a pair of 4430's back when Solen first came out with them.

As was said before Charge-coupled networks will yeild about the best cost effective network for this speaker that could be had.I've come to that conclusion. They are kind of a PITA to build due to the size but they seem to work out to be lower in cost than using boutique capacitors. JBL uses biased Solens in several of their TOTL systems including the latest system to be released sometime this year. It's kind of essential for me to be on the same page as they are. ;) I've never been a fan of non-biased, non-bypassed Solens but that's probably just me.

The Daytons should work fine.The Daytons bypassed with the Audiocap Theta's work quite nice. I wouldn't go with a cheaper bypass cap than the Theta.

[rek50]

"I'm just wondering if I should use all Daytons or a combo of Daytons and electrolytes " Did you use a combo when you built your "ALK networks"?

"OK - I have read up on this." See, I wasn't joking... "A search on Capacitors, Bypass Capacitors, Biased Networks, L100T... will yeild more information in one hour, than you could forget in a week." I have FORGOTTEN if any reference was made, to the benefits of using a combination of electrolytes and poly caps.

Do the original networks sound bad in your "Exercise Room" now? How can you tell if they need to be rebuilt?

"(the small sized caps used by JBL look like electrolytes - they were electrolytes right?)"
Do the original caps measure "Small" compared to the size of Poly caps?

[L100t Owner]

Did you use a combo when you built your "ALK networks"?

I used and Hovlands and Solens and expensive inductors, bu tthere were for much more expensive speakers and critical listening.

Do the original networks sound bad in your "Exercise Room" now? How can you tell if they need to be rebuilt?

The sound better than the LX55's that I replaced. But after 20 years, the caps have to be worn out.

"(the small sized caps used by JBL look like electrolytes - they were electrolytes right?)"
Do the original caps measure "Small" compared to the size of Poly caps?

They are very small for their values. A 40 uF caps that size has to be an electrolytic.



Thanks for all of the help. If this were Klipsch, I could answer teh question very quickly. Apples and oranges here.

Here it is in a nutshell. I bought these speakers because they were available and I lusted after them when I was 19. I am not using them for critical listening, but will be listening to them 45 minutes a day just about every day.

I want an inexpensive solution for a rebuild. The Daytons are cheap (about $50 to do the network) but the bypass caps will double that price.

What other low cost options exist? Are the original bypass caps available?

Thanks,

Chris

[rek50]

I think I found "an inexpensive solution for a rebuild. The Daytons are cheap (about $50 to do the network) but the bypass caps will double that price." Don't use the bypass caps that will " double that price", use AudioCap Thetas. Parts Express prices them at $3.47 each X 8 = $27.76.:)

[L100t Owner]

Which ones are $3.47 each?

I was planning on using the stock values of 0.01 uF and 0.1 uF at $4.00 and $6.00 respectively.

Can I deviate from these values?

Chris

[rek50]

.01 uF. Theta's
"My L100T's crossovers have what look like large value (14, 17 and 40 uF) " Keep with "Those" stock values. Use the same value bypass cap as the original value bypass cap.
In Review:
Dayton caps for (14, 17 and 40 uF)
Theta's for Bypass caps
partsexpress.com is a source for these components

[L100t Owner]

.01 uF. Theta's
"My L100T's crossovers have what look like large value (14, 17 and 40 uF) " Keep with "Those" stock values. Use the same value bypass cap as the original value bypass cap.
In Review:
Dayton caps for (14, 17 and 40 uF)
Theta's for Bypass caps
partsexpress.com is a source for these components

Perfect. I will have to combine caps in parallel to hit the values for the 14uF and 17 uF. 12 + 2 for the 14n uF and 15 + 2 for the 17 uF.

Dayton for the 3.0 uF cap bypassed with a Theata too? (this cap is for the tweeter and originally a Poly cap and bypassed).

Thanks again

Chris

[rek50]

:applaud: I Think you have a workable plan. Yes, combine caps in parallel to hit the ORIGINAL values. Replace ALL caps (C-1 40uF, C-3 17uF, C-5 14uF, C-7 3uF) with Dayton Metallized Polypropylene Capacitors. Replace C-2, C-4, C-6, C-8 .01uF with AUDIOCAP PPT THETA .010uF-600V FILM/FOIL CAPACITOR.

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L100t%20ts.pdf

[L100t Owner]

:applaud: I Think you have a workable plan. Yes, combine caps in parallel to hit the ORIGINAL values. Replace ALL caps (C-1 40uF, C-3 17uF, C-5 14uF, C-7 3uF) with Dayton Metallized Polypropylene Capacitors. Replace C-2, C-4, C-6, C-8 .01uF with AUDIOCAP PPT THETA .010uF-600V FILM/FOIL CAPACITOR.

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L100t%20ts.pdf

I don't hav eany experience with bypass caps. C4 and C8 were originally 0.1 uF bypass caps. Why the lower value? (to 0.01 uF).

Chris

[rek50]

I see on the schematic that they were listed as .1uf. It could be a typo (error) or an earlier thought/design. If you look at the later (Rev D) network,

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L100t3%20ts.pdf

the bypass caps are all .01uF. Also note the change in the network, using the SAME drivers (speakers-LF, MF, HF). The network was revised for better sound/performance.

[L100t Owner]

I see on the schematic that they were listed as .1uf. It could be a typo (error) or an earlier thought/design. If you look at the later (Rev D) network,

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L100t3%20ts.pdf

the bypass caps are all .01uF. Also note the change in the network, using the SAME drivers (speakers-LF, MF, HF). The network was revised for better sound/performance.

I am really glad I asked the question. Thanks, I will order all 0.01 uF's. Now I see where you got the price of $3.47 each.

Chris

EDIT: I just pulled the crossovers, yep, they are all 0.01 uF's. I didn't pull them before because the midrange wires had hot melt holding them to the inner enclosures. Glad I asked about the two sizes. Going to place teh order now.

[Gioxtream]

What is The best capacitor to upgrade The JBL's? I have tested a few Polypropylene caps.And.. to my Ears the originals (Electrolitics sound way better.) Maybe Because of the speaker design? Go figure!

I replaced the Electrolitics on the board with Polypropylene Erse Xpulse caps and the lack of transparency was so obvious.

CaN Anyone Guide me in the right direction? Thanks.








I just went down this same road with a set of JBL 4425s. I ended up using Dayton caps along with .01mf bypass caps on each large cap - the original way that JBL did it. Do a search on my name and you'll see the discussion here.

I've used Solens in the past with good success on a set of UREI 809s, as well. All nice caps. There are as many opinions on the boutique-ness of caps by brand name, so I'll not go there. Suffice it to say, though, that I've observed the same effect on both speaker systems with different brands of caps: The high frequency output went up so that I had to readjust the output levels. Also, the quality of the amplification you are using will have an effect on what/how you hear the changes.

Just my experiences.....

Cheers,

David

[bandolino]

What is The best capacitor to upgrade The JBL's? I have tested a few Polypropylene caps.And.. to my Ears the originals (Electrolitics sound way better.) Maybe Because of the speaker design? Go figure!

I replaced the Electrolitics on the board with Polypropylene Erse Xpulse caps and the lack of transparency was so obvious.

CaN Anyone Guide me in the right direction? Thanks.


I am not the best person to answer this, since I have limited experience, but since no one else has responded yet, I'll post.

From what I understand, when the crossover is upgraded with new capacitors (and/or other components), it can take many hours of play time to "burn in" the new capacitors. Opinions and experience differ on exactly how long the burn in time is, but I have read variations from about 10 hours to 4 weeks. During the burn in process, the sound can be quite different from how it will sound later. This is a possible explanation for your experience, if you didn't yet burn in the new capacitors.

If you still experience this after the capacitors have had plenty of burn in time, then perhaps it is just personal preference. Different people respond differently to any number of elements in an audio system. Some people say that they greatly prefer the sound of electrolytic capacitors to polypropylene capacitors, especially in vintage speakers.

Good luck with your projects, and enjoy the music.