Snake-oil treatments

[pelly3s]

after a different post went onto the topic of making fun on mapleshade for their products i figured i would start a post about all the worst things i find on the interent to improve sound quality

http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/tweaks/cablelifts.php
http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/tweaks/cdtreatments.php

" NEVER use speaker cables shorter than 8'. Amazingly, 4' sounds much worse than 8'. Contrary to common belief, shorter interconnects (2 m or less) and longer speaker cables sound WAY BETTER than the opposite—based on extensive head-to-head tests"

http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/tweaks/progold.php i use progold and many other cleaners and lubes everyday and i cant hear a difference other than controls not making noise when moved

http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/tweaks/powerstrip.php a $3.99 power strip with a different power cord on it. and i personally wouldnt trust that cord

according to them also if you use certain woods for your shelving then isolate the shelf it gives you better sound, because your amp and other equiment must have some sort of microphonic quality to it.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue21/cryo_international_interview.htm

http://www.dakiom.com/

another one of my favorites is how people say different power cords have different sounds, and also how putting your cd player on isolation pads will help reduce vibration and help the sound open up.

I guess I just cant buy into all the stupid things. I go to a lot of hi-fi forums and get into arguements with people on things like this because they get mad when you tell them that its all in their head. Ive taken enough physics classes to understand that. Another thing that gets me is the people who swear that their little hi-fi speakers sound better than a pair of westlakes or anything like that when 99% the hifi companies buy their frames, mags, cones, and coils from the same overseas suppliers

Ok I am done with my rants. Good day all

[edgewound]

I agree with you Pelly. The laser in the CD player is reading binary code....not picking up an analog magnetic signal. Most of the BS that has to do with audiophile cabling is voodoo at best. And magic disc's, creams lotions???Come on....puhleez... There is however differences in the quality and the AMOUNT of conductor you should use for best quality....and of course shielding for line level runs. Anymore than 2-3 bucks a foot at the high end and your building some cable magnate's Million Dollars Estate for him. According to Physics professors that I've had from Cal-Tech over the years....most of this nonsense means nothing at audio frequencies. Time Align a speaker cable?....yeah, right.

[scott fitlin]

My favorite assoteric cables are these newfangled interconnects with an additional wire that carries a small DC voltage, and has it own wall wart or battery power supply the additional wire is plugged into. When these types of cables are used, they open up and illuminate the soundstage from within!

http://www.audioquest.com/pdfs/dbs_anaology_field.pdf




But, I gotta give these companies some credit! Why? Because they make products, that even if they dont do what they claim, they look so attractive. You gotta admit, some of these outrageously high priced cables really look great with their fancy connectors and exotic material jackets!

Its not just audio, its a fashion show!

[scott fitlin]

http://www.audioquest.com

I mean, your not just buying cables here. You take the wife out shopping, and you purchase interconnects that match the decor of the room! You get your high performance, she gets something that matches with the drapes! And the company gets alot of your money.

:blink:

[Zilch]

I wanna be a Cable Magnate. :bouncy:

[Now under evaluation by several forum "Performance Laboratories." :p ]

I been givin' 'em away free.

'Cause they cost nothin' to make.

That's WRONG, ain't it?


"The large magnetic fields associated with bass energy modulate a cable's electrical properties, thereby modulating/distorting the treble ... similar to the way waves in the ocean make it much harder to swim."YEAH, Baby. I need some HYPE to sell is what!

[Also available in blue or white.... ;) ]

[Alex Lancaster]

:) Scott got it right, Forum members Beware!; I see a strong possibility of "Hot Rodding" them: "1000Vwill stretch the electrons, protons and neutrons allowing the signal to go thru at higher than lightspeed, do not touch" :bs: :bs: :bs:

[duaneage]

I saw one ad that touted biasing speaker cables becuase the phone company does it too. Well if you make calls through your speakers you have a need for 36 volts to power the phone.

Just hope nobody calls during the opening to Time on Dark Side of the Moon

[jblnut]

This whole cable phenomenon could be the subject of many books (And probably is). It's certainly a good way to lighten your wallet up at the time of hi-fi purchase, and there seems to be no upper end to the dollars you can spend.

I will say this though - to dismiss them all as "doing nothing"
is probably wrong, in the cable arena at least. These guys are spending a lot trying to out-do each other and I'm sure that they know exactly what subtle changes in impedance and capicitance will do in terms of sound. The kicker comes when you use the word "better" instead of "different". We've all swapped components, speakers, cables, etc around. It's all too easy when you've just laid down a lot of cash to use the "better" word. I've been there myself and have some Audioquest cables to prove it ;) .

The best thing you can ever do is to find some way to test yourself. With me that was a Luxman preamp that had a remote, and a CD player with two analog outs (variable and fixed). I spent a *lot* of hours comparing cables using this setup because I could sit without moving and change the inputs on the preamp, thereby switching between different cables connected to the CD player. Certain cables *do* sound different - that much I can tell you. But better ? That's an entirely different conversation....


jblnut

[LE15-Thumper]

I think the proper term is "Psycho-Acoustics" with the emphasis on "Psycho".

I would love to get these high end audio dealers into a sound room and do some blind testing, asking them which cable sounded better if they first didn't see me hook it up !!! Ok hot-shot, put your ears where your money grubbing hands are.

I saw a machine that "treated" cd's by spinning them at about 4000rpm for a few moments BEFORE you put it into the CD player. "Alignment of the Pits and Lands ?"

How about the Totem "Beak" This takes the cake !!!! :barf: I think they are at least $75.00 a set !!!:screwy:

http://www.totemacoustic.com/english/products/access_beak.htm

If you expect to hear an improvement, you always will. Especially if you have already paid for it.

[scott fitlin]

This whole cable phenomenon could be the subject of many books (And probably is). It's certainly a good way to lighten your wallet up at the time of hi-fi purchase, and there seems to be no upper end to the dollars you can spend.

I will say this though - to dismiss them all as "doing nothing"
is probably wrong, in the cable arena at least. These guys are spending a lot trying to out-do each other and I'm sure that they know exactly what subtle changes in impedance and capicitance will do in terms of sound. The kicker comes when you use the word "better" instead of "different". We've all swapped components, speakers, cables, etc around. It's all too easy when you've just laid down a lot of cash to use the "better" word. I've been there myself and have some Audioquest cables to prove it ;) .

The best thing you can ever do is to find some way to test yourself. With me that was a Luxman preamp that had a remote, and a CD player with two analog outs (variable and fixed). I spent a *lot* of hours comparing cables using this setup because I could sit without moving and change the inputs on the preamp, thereby switching between different cables connected to the CD player. Certain cables *do* sound different - that much I can tell you. But better ? That's an entirely different conversation....


jblnutIll agree, some cables do sound different! Worth $1500 for a 3 metre pair? Not to me!

A few times now, ive laid down a few bucks for a cable that got Sam Telligs or someone elses thumbs up, and I do hear differences! Better? Well, they arent still in my system.

I just had to have a set of Kimber Kable silver wire interconnects. Had to have em, cause I knew I was missing out on all the action, I knew I was! They sold for nice money, though, so it wasnt a complete loss.

Silver wire does have higher conductivity, and its measurable! So, I found out, to me, silver wires are quite bright sounding! Especially in a system that has all compression drivers and horn tweeters!

Tonight, because I read in the first post of this thread, that Pro Gold not only cleans and protects your connections, it makes the sound better! So, I have Pro Gold here, I have de-oxit also, I took the can of pro Gold into the room, unplugged a couple of connectors, sprayed them, let it sit a few seconds, wiped em, re connected them, turned system on, few minutes to warm up, played music. Im sure my electrons appreciate not having to traverse a dirty road to their destination, but I cant hear any sonic improvement! Maybe I didnt wait long enough? I wait a while longer, play some more tunes, system sounds good, but it already sounded good! I couldnt hear a difference from just cleaning the connections with Pro Gold! I know if you leave the connector go long enough they can oxidize and cause resistance, and degrade signal, but I clean my connections three times a year, I have always used commercial grade contact cleaner, and cant hear any difference from this to Pro Gold.

When I put new needles on my cartridges, THAT does make a very noticeable improvement!

[LE15-Thumper]

Good cables make a difference, but you will eventually hit that point where you need to shut off the "Common Sense" part of your brain to keep going higher.

Yes, 18 gauge lamp cord to your double 2242 sub is not going to cut it. And that $4.49 twin RCA cable from "Radio-Shark" isn't going to be much good either.

I don't know..... find something you like, make sure it has decent connectors on the ends. Most shops will let you try a set for the weekend.

Ok, I am done on this thread now :blah: :blah:

[tomt]

20 years and 2 months after this was published,few seem to have

read or remember what this says, or means.

http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1095cable/


Do You?

[Zilch]

Conventional theory and actual conductor performance merge: At a diameter of around 0.8mm, the conductor becomes closer to a low-valued ideal resistor at audio frequencies.That equates to 20 AWG solid wire, oft used by JBL within cabinets (and oft ridiculed for it, as well).

Zilch Wonder Cable (ZWC) uses multiple individually insulated 24 AWG (0.511 mm, near the lower limit of the recommended 0.5 - 1 mm range) with interleaved send/return.

Think "Litz." :p

[Steve Schell]

Very interesting article and conclusions, Tom. Don't understand it in detail, but it seems to agree with what I've observed. For a long time now I've used thin copper magnet wire for speaker cables, with great results. The thin wire has excellent clarity compared to thicker, more complicated stuff, at least with the high sensitivity drivers I've been working on. My partner and I have observed on two occasions how large cross section audiophile cables have absolutely killed the sound of the system- soggy, slow and muffled compared to the thin wire.

As to the snake oil thread in general, my theory is that hi fi has been a "hands on" primarily male hobby from the beginning. I have a 1928 Wireless World article which describes how to build a moving coil cone driver at home. When "no user serviceable parts inside" amps and small fully assembled speakers became the norm years ago, they left the hobbyist nothing to fiddle with. Pucks, pointy feet, magic clocks, fancy wire and the like stepped in to fill the void. Such a shame, really, as DIY speaker and electronics construction can be SO much more rewarding for the small percentage of audiophiles who try it.

[scott fitlin]

I had a conversation with an engineer about wire. This engineer, who will remain anonymous, is an actual engineer for a manufacturer of audio components. We were talking about cables, and I told him I can in fact here differences between cables, and type of wire and construction! But, I also told him I havent found one I really like yet. Most of the time, regular, generic wire, with neutrik or switchcraft connectors, and good assembly just sound better, and more right to me!

He told me, I hear what he hears! He also told me the public does get alot of what they pay for in these super cables! Super Conductor! Nil rsistance, nil capacitance, nil inductance. Or as close to nil as can be gotten

Then he said to me, the reason many of these cables sound edgy and bright to you is because most gears outputs actually like to see the small bit of resistance present in typical wire, in fact they operate better with it, than without it.

Of course, the story was longer and more technically detailed, but this is the gist of it.

[pelly3s]

There isnt a day that goes by when I dont tell a customer to buy a multi meter and bring it with them when buying cables. there are such small differences that it is almost not even noticable in most cases. I have heard some differences in cables, but I always seem to go with a company like Gepco or Redco. My opinion is if those $500 per foot cables are so much better why dont studios use them.

[scott fitlin]

There isnt a day that goes by when I dont tell a customer to buy a multi meter and bring it with them when buying cables. there are such small differences that it is almost not even noticable in most cases. I have heard some differences in cables, but I always seem to go with a company like Gepco or Redco. My opinion is if those $500 per foot cables are so much better why dont studios use them.Umm, maybe after the studio bought a $400,000 dollar console, and Genelec speakers, and vintage and new processing, and room consultants and construction, they had no more money left over for wires?

:dont-know

[LE15-Thumper]

I think what a lot of guys are saying here is that there gets to be a "ridiculus" point when it comes to these Audio Tweeks that promise musical nirvana.

I believe strongly in good cables and good jacks on the ends of them, but I wont buy or make little Tee-Pees to keep them off the floor.

I spent $12.00 a foot for my speaker cable almost 15 years ago ! Is it much better than 12ga Basic Monster cable ??? Who knows really. For a sub woofer, the fat monster cable would probably all you need.

I know my soundstage "seemed" to improve when using this expensive cable on my mains. I say "Seemed" because maybe I self-induced an improvement ?

I will never run 18g lamp cord or stock RCA cables again. There definitely is something positive to say about higher quality cables and such. I just think that after about 1995, the manufacturers hit an "Improvement" wall and started to need a new angle or gimics.

I mean, a set of 1 meter Audioquest Lapis interconnect was $500.00 back in the mid 90's. Shouldn't that same cable knock your socks off today ?

[scott fitlin]

I agree, well made interconnects make for better cables. But, if you use good quality connectors like Switchcraft or Neutrik, and good, wire, such as West Penn, or Belden, you can make perfectly good interconnects!


I can hear differences between the small amount of high end cables Ive played with, but Im not sure what I hear is actually a positive improvement, and what I do hear, is a very small difference, nothing major, like OMG, the whole soundstage just opened up, and brought the singer into my room. It was of such clarity and realistic detail, If I didnt know better, I could swear I saw her naked body between my speakers!

Its stuff like this I read in Stereophool, real syrupy reveiws! I already played the " I HAVE TO HAVE IT BECAUSE SAM SAID " game!

Many of the differences Ive heard, though, seem to be increased highs and mids, leading to a brighter, edgier sound, not neccesarily better though!

These days prices for interconnects have become seriously expensive. Check out these prices>http://www.needledoctor.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.92/.f

[Titanium Dome]

(snip) I will never run 18g lamp cord or stock RCA cables again. There definitely is something positive to say about higher quality cables and such.


Even if all you can say is "They look better," I think that's a justification on its own. Running lamp cord or zip wire may save some bucks, but you just look like a cheap bastard when you do it. I mean, looks do matter.

I don't see many guys putting painted steel wheels and Sears Roadhandlers on their Mercedes or BMW luxo-cars, but, heck, they'll do the same thing as Michelins and alloys, right? Well, no, because nobody's going to spend $100,000 on a car and put $39.99 rims and $109 tires on it.

So if I spend $30,000 on speakers and electronics, zip cord is not showing up in that room, nor are thin but adequate RCA cables. Maybe I'll do something exotic like use the Zilch Mircle Cable because everyone will ask, "What is that?" and I'll say, "It's ZMC, really exotic stuff" instead of calling it what it is. ;)

[tomt]

Steve Schell -- Very interesting article and conclusions,...

`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ``````

what the Dr. said is that the rise and collapse of magnetic fields,

have much to do with the end result of the signal,

much as a car and aerodynamics as to do with speed and

stability, and the resulting 'ride'

`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ``````````
i've noticed that a more symetric (and less complicated)

magnetic field results in a 'cleaner' signal


tom

[scott fitlin]

I admit, looks influence me to some degree! But in the end, its always the sound that gets me, regardless of how it looks!

I even find myself looking at all the pretty cables, thinking, WOW, they look so nice, so cool! But, are they truly worth over $1000 for a 1 meter pair?

OTOH, some of the best sounding stuff, especially from the pro and theatre lines, was also some of the ugliest stuff!

What I know for sure, is in fact, LOOKS do sell products, and these days they make speaker cabinets that are fine furniture as well! Same for amps, cables and electronics! Betcha the WAF is much higher when looking at a pair of B & W 801,s or 802,s than it is for pro studio monitors in utility cabinets? A plastic knob will turn the potentiometer shaft just like knobs machined from a billet of solid titanium, but what looks nicer?

Cable companies do the same thing by making real slick looking cables, in fact, they put alot of money into the materials to make slick looking outer jackets! Now, if the cable legitemately sounds better than off the shelf cable materials, why doesnt the pro compamies offer these enhanced wires, but in utility jackets! The consumer variants of the great sounding pro stuff was always packaged in more cosmetically attractive packages! The JBL L-300 comes to mind, its a consumer version of a well known and popular JBL studio monitor!

But I dont see pro compamies offering pro versions of assoteric wire! And, yes, there are pro systems that have amazing sound quality, and amazing resolution, so if theres a real difference to be heard, it can be heard through a really high quality pro sound system, especially operated by someone that really knows what they are doing!

I mean, take an amplifier, on one hand, there are some really beautiful looking amps pictured in stereophool, and some sound really good, but would they sell as well, if they looked like a Crown? Then others really look beautiful, but dont sound anything like they look!

You gotta buy with your EARS, not your eyes! But who would spend $4500 on a pair of interconnects in a plain grey teflon jacket?

[Titanium Dome]

I admit, looks influence me to some degree! But in the end, its always the sound that gets me, regardless of how it looks!
I agree, but IME, there's generally not much difference in sound, at least not to the same degree that there are differences in appearance. Like Hannibal Smith, I like it when a plan comes together, so the better cable for me is one that sounds as good or better than the one I have PLUS it looks a lot better. That's a winner.

The only restraint is the law of diminishing returns. I've yet to "hear" or "see" a cable that is worth more than a few dollars a foot compared to the incremental (or dubious) additional benefits as the price goes up.

Maybe I just need to make more money. :p


I even find myself looking at all the pretty cables, thinking, WOW, they look so nice, so cool! But, are they truly worth over $1000 for a 1 meter pair?

For me, the obvious answer is "No" (see above). My consience tells me that the money spent shows a flagrant lack of judgment and that money wasted in such manner will come back in spades when the Karmic Wheel* rolls around again. That's why it's better to send that cable money for hurricane and earthquake relief instead of cables.

*The 4430s, B380, and L250s that I picked up recently are going to break my back when that wheel returns. Quick, I need to do something good!


OTOH, some of the best sounding stuff, especially from the pro and theatre lines, was also some of the ugliest stuff!

What I know for sure, is in fact, LOOKS do sell products, and these days they make speaker cabinets that are fine furniture as well! Same for amps, cables and electronics! Betcha the WAF is much higher when looking at a pair of B & W 801,s or 802,s than it is for pro studio monitors in utility cabinets? A plastic knob will turn the potentiometer shaft just like knobs machined from a billet of solid titanium, but what looks nicer?

Cable companies do the same thing by making real slick looking cables, in fact, they put alot of money into the materials to make slick looking outer jackets! Now, if the cable legitemately sounds better than off the shelf cable materials, why doesnt the pro compamies offer these enhanced wires, but in utility jackets! The consumer variants of the great sounding pro stuff was always packaged in more cosmetically attractive packages! The JBL L-300 comes to mind, its a consumer version of a well known and popular JBL studio monitor!

But I dont see pro compamies offering pro versions of assoteric wire! And, yes, there are pro systems that have amazing sound quality, and amazing resolution, so if theres a real difference to be heard, it can be heard through a really high quality pro sound system, especially operated by someone that really knows what they are doing!

I mean, take an amplifier, on one hand, there are some really beautiful looking amps pictured in stereophool, and some sound really good, but would they sell as well, if they looked like a Crown? Then others really look beautiful, but dont sound anything like they look!

Among the units I audtioned before settling on the Performance Series were the Sonus Faber Cremonas. These are stunningly beautiul works of the woodcrafter's art. The cabinetry, shape, and appointments are much better than the PS. Yet, the PS smoked them sonically.

OTOH, I think the PS is more interesting and attractive than most of the JBL Pro stuff. One of JBL's great strengths is its technical capability to share technologies across the pro and consumer lines AND its willingness to do so. Many companies don't even have this option.

BTW: I loved "assoteric." I'll be using it from time to time. :D


You gotta buy with your EARS, not your eyes! But who would spend $4500 on a pair of interconnects in a plain grey teflon jacket?

For most of us, it's tough to separate one from the other. We claim we can do it, but I'm not convinced. Some folks are hooked into getting utilitarian stuff just to prove they're not buying with their eyes, but of course they are--just in reverse! :rotfl:

[JBLnsince1959]

.

I will say this though - to dismiss them all as "doing nothing"
is probably wrong, in the cable arena at least.

The best thing you can ever do is to find some way to test yourself. Certain cables *do* sound different - that much I can tell you. But better ? That's an entirely different conversation....


jblnut

Agree, EVERYTHING has a sonic signature of some kind, but "BETTER" depends.

I look at this way ( in cables esp), there are two ends to the spectrum, those who says there is no difference in sound ( I disagree) and at the other end of the spectrum those that say spending $1000 of dollars on the latest is the best.

personally, I can hear differences between cables and interconnects ( and electronics too) and the most I will spend is on Kimber stuff ( used off audiogon) and a few others in the same price range.

But every system I build is different and the wires will sound different on them. With my 4430's I used PSS silver interconnects and speaker wires with a MAC amp and it sounded really great ( ask audiobeer) Those same compontents didn't work with the PS speakers and I had to use something else.

each to his own, tho. I have freinds who buy VERY expensive cars and some who buy 10 year used cars, BOTH get you where you're going.

Vindication of Snake Oil ( from the book "Fats that Kill, Fats that Heal")

Snake oil originally came from China, where it was used to alleviate inflammation and pain in rheumatoid arthritis, bursitis and simular conditions. Chinese labors on section gangs doing grunt work involved in building the railroad tracks to link North America coast to coast gave it to Europeans with joint pain. When rubbed on the skin above the the pain, snake oil brought relief. Patent medicine men ridiculed the claim

In 1989, a medical doctor from Cal. decided to find out what snake oil contains. He obtained a sample of the oil from San Francisco Chinatown, had it analyzed, and found that it contained 75% carrier material, for emulsifying the snake oil and helping to transport it through the skin. It also contains camphor. The remaining 25% of the product is oil from Chinese water snakes, which contains 20% of the Important omega 3 derivative eicosapentaenoic acid ( EPA) as well as 48% myristic acid ( 14:0), 10% steric acid ( 18:0), 14 % oleic acid ( 18:1w9) and 7% linoleic ( 18:2w6) plus arachidonic(20:4w6). At 20% EPA, Chinese water snake is the richest known natural source of the parent series 3 prostaglandins, which inhibit the production of Pro-inflammatory series 2 prostaglandins. Like essential fatty acids and their other derivatives, EPA can be absorbed through the skin. Salmon oil, the next best source of EPA, contains a maxium of 18%.

The bottom-line is that traditional snake oil is natural and therapeutic and the snake oil salesman is vindicated. The patent medicine salesman can expect a dimmer future.

[JBLnsince1959]

I wanna be a Cable Magnate. :bouncy:

[Now under evaluation by several forum "Performance Laboratories." :p ]

[Also available in blue or white.... ;) ]

Hey Zilch, I got the ZMC wires yesterday, thanks a bunch :bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy:

I'll try to start listening tonight. Wish I had known about the different colors ;)

[JBLnsince1959]

. My partner and I have observed on two occasions how large cross section audiophile cables have absolutely killed the sound of the system- soggy, slow and muffled compared to the thin wire.

.

Agree, esp. with the mids and highs ( IMHO)

[scott fitlin]

Agree, esp. with the mids and highs ( IMHO)Any idea why this is?

Several years ago, while I was into the " I NEED BETTER WIRE " syndrome, I purchased about 75ft on Monster 14ga, because it was on sale, so I decided to replace one 50ft run to one of my mid horns and see how much better it would be! Now running the wire in my ceiling is a bitch, and I wound up leaving the old run in place, and just tie wrapped the Monster to the old wire! This was a right channel stack, direct L & R comparison, I DID expect to hear one horn sound better than the other!

Truthfully, the music sounded the same to me on both horns! One had the old clear jacket silver color, and copper color wire, Monster on the other!

But I thought I did hear some distortion coming from the Monster cabled horn. My friend Shorty comes here, and while I had the Monster up, he would always point out that he heard distortion in my mid horns, and always THAT horn! I never told him I had a different wire from the amp to the driver, so he had no idea!

One day, I changed back to the old wire, no real tonal difference, but the little distortion did seem to disappear.

I never gave it much thought till you mentioned it in this thread!

Why should this be?

["Duke" Spinner]

i run paired 16 g ...

there is more skin area where the current flows, compared to one # 12....

now before you all roast me .

i better check the Circular Mills for each size to make sure i am correct .....:o:

[scott fitlin]

Because of this thread, and the fact that I have had some days closed, end of season, to play games, I have been switching back and forth between 2 sets of interconnects to see what, if any differences I hear, and if it would be better this time, than the last time around!

The interconnects involved are 1 pair of 3 meter Kimber kable KC-1 RCA,s and 1 pair of 3 meter pair of ( Oh man, let me put my bulletproof vest on ) Radio Shmuck Pro Golds, ( cheapskate cables, went to RS and bought it just for this ) :D !

I put the Kimber in 2 days ago, and just played music! I did think I heard a difference, although not tremendously different. But seemed more spatial, the upper mids seemed slightly less sharp, the low mid and mid bass seemed a bit fuller. The bass seemed a bit heavier. But the highs have a pastier sound!

I left the Kimber in for 2 days, and today early on, put the RS interconnect in! From the second I started playing music I heard a difference! The highs had a better, sweeter, more top end sound, no paste or loss of extension! The upper mids definitely seem like it has sharper definition, and the bass and mid bass not as heavy. The music seems to have picked up speed. It doesnt sound like the RS cable is doing anything, but I always felt you shouldnt hear a cable doing anything, other than getting signal from one place to the next!

So I went back and forth for a bit between the cables, and every time I put the Kimber back in, there is a noticeable loss of drive! Not major, but noticeable! Im thinking this is the sonic difference I hear!

Through the Kimber, and its a cost effective entry level AUDIO cable, the music seems artificially subdued, the mids dont have that crispness, and the highs werent right! Yeah the bass is different too, but seemed slower.

Maybe Im crazy, maybe Im hearing something, but I went and bought a brand new cheapie cable, and the highs sound airier, and sweeter with top end extension, whereas the Kimber gates the top end a bit!

Playing the same recordings, vinyl and CD, at the same levels yet different sound through both interconnects! The system just sounds more *Right* to me with the cheap interconnects, the mids are definitely better to me, more attack and better detail and sharpness of definition of each note.

My VU meters indicate that at the same level on the volume pot, the level was not the same, with the same recording, for each set of cables!

The particular Kimber I used is not terribly expensive, and is why I chose to use it, but I definitely hear a difference and didnt like it! But a $200 pair of interconnects should blow away a $14.99 set, right?

With the RS interconnect, it just sounds like all the music is getting through!

Go figure?

:blink:

[yggdrasil]

5-6 years ago I borrowed 2 pairs of RCA cables at $650/pair. After some switching back and forth between my very cheap RCA cables I was able to hear that the expensive ones was brighter and harder. Could not decide if it was to the better. I concluded that I would be better off spending $1300 extra on amplifiers....

My favourite is spending lots of money on cables for transmitting digital program. How can 0 or 1 be anything else?

[scott fitlin]

With other cables I had, I also found the sound to be brighter, and take on a harder texture. This happened with silver wire. I find silver cables to be on the bright side of things. Gets edgy sounding. Someone made special cables for me, and sent them to me, all the way from Japan, copper wire, good, but big RCA connectors, he had told me he made these specially for me, and to fit in with the sound, and equipment that I use, and because he made them for ME, I really was excited, and I really wanted to LIKE them. Too bright sounding for me. When I had these in, even my employees began to complain to me, the music is bothering my ears they would tell me! At the end of a night, I put the ordinary cables back, and everything was right! Next night, no complaints!

I make my own, West Penn or Belden, and use Switchcraft and Neutrik connectors. It works for me!

I was about to go to a store and buy an even better, more expensive cable for the sake of having some new toy, had I decided I really liked the Kimber, but I think Ill hold on the my money for a bit this time!

[Mrs Lansing]

I admit, looks influence me to some degree! But in the end, its always the sound that gets me, regardless of how it looks!

I even find myself looking at all the pretty cables, thinking, WOW, they look so nice, so cool! But, are they truly worth over $1000 for a 1 meter pair?

OTOH, some of the best sounding stuff, especially from the pro and theatre lines, was also some of the ugliest stuff!

What I know for sure, is in fact, LOOKS do sell products, and these days they make speaker cabinets that are fine furniture as well! Same for amps, cables and electronics! Betcha the WAF is much higher when looking at a pair of B & W 801,s or 802,s than it is for pro studio monitors in utility cabinets? A plastic knob will turn the potentiometer shaft just like knobs machined from a billet of solid titanium, but what looks nicer?

Cable companies do the same thing by making real slick looking cables, in fact, they put alot of money into the materials to make slick looking outer jackets! Now, if the cable legitemately sounds better than off the shelf cable materials, why doesnt the pro compamies offer these enhanced wires, but in utility jackets! The consumer variants of the great sounding pro stuff was always packaged in more cosmetically attractive packages! The JBL L-300 comes to mind, its a consumer version of a well known and popular JBL studio monitor!

But I dont see pro compamies offering pro versions of assoteric wire! And, yes, there are pro systems that have amazing sound quality, and amazing resolution, so if theres a real difference to be heard, it can be heard through a really high quality pro sound system, especially operated by someone that really knows what they are doing!

I mean, take an amplifier, on one hand, there are some really beautiful looking amps pictured in stereophool, and some sound really good, but would they sell as well, if they looked like a Crown? Then others really look beautiful, but dont sound anything like they look!

You gotta buy with your EARS, not your eyes! But who would spend $4500 on a pair of interconnects in a plain grey teflon jacket?

Hmm....I like that post.

I have nice "thick" Juicy Pink interconnects with really "large" gold sockets called Harmony Cables.

But just remember the quality of the terminations account for more than you think. Just pop off the top of your amps and you will see what I mean.

[scott fitlin]

Hmm....I like that post.

I have nice "thick" Juicy Pink interconnects with really "large" gold sockets called Harmony Cables.

But just remember the quality of the terminations account for more than you think. Just pop off the top of your amps and you will see what I mean.I like your post too! As I have always been taught, A snug, "TIGHT" connection is a good connection!

[Mrs Lansing]

Actually I have seen some neat stuff in my local HiFi shop that might help. The salesman said it was like Lube and that is supposed to improve the connection.

I think he was just being smart, I am not sure how this would help as once its in it should stay in and not come out right.

Perhaps Scotty you can explain what he meant?

Bye for now darling...

[scott fitlin]

as once its in it should stay in and not come out right.

Yes it should! Matter of fact, two connections should at least be able to make a night out of it!

After all, if it only stayed in for the first 2 minutes of the song, what good would that be?

[Zilch]

I ain't buyin' no reel of fluorescent pink cable to make ZWC's.

No matter HOW much y'all beg for it.

Nope....

WAIT! That'd be "Product Identity!" :p

[scott fitlin]

Actually I have seen some neat stuff in my local HiFi shop that might help. The salesman said it was like Lube and that is supposed to improve the connection.

I think he was just being smart, I am not sure how this would help as once its in it should stay in and not come out right.

Perhaps Scotty you can explain what he meant?

Bye for now darling...But really, I am coming to feel that the cables outer jacket might in fact be of some importance, after all! I think the cables might be better in something sheer, and accessible, dont you agree?

[yggdrasil]

I ain't buyin' no reel of fluorescent pink cable to make ZWC's.

No matter HOW much y'all beg for it.

Nope....

WAIT! That'd be "Product Identity!" :p
Maybe a 2-way cable?:D

["Duke" Spinner]

!

Through the Kimber, and its a cost effective entry level AUDIO cable, the music seems artificially subdued, the mids dont have that crispness, and the highs werent right! Yeah the bass is different too, but seemed slower.



The particular Kimber I used is not terribly expensive, and is why I chose to use it, but I definitely hear a difference and didnt like it! But a $200 pair of interconnects should blow away a $14.99 set, right?

go figure?

:blink:

You .....Horse's Patoot ....!

i KNOW what the problem is here ......








you didn't buy the Good Kimber Cable ....ya gotta spend $2000...

to get the GOOD cable.........:spin:

[duaneage]

14 ga Speaker wire works for me. My Disco records are not going to care one way or the other.

[JBLnsince1959]

you didn't buy the Good Kimber Cable ....ya gotta spend $2000...

to get the GOOD cable.........:spin:

God, I hope not.... I can't afford that.

I've heard great cable from Radio Shack ( I have a few) and real bad ones from Kimber,( I have those also) personally I like the hero's right now in my PS system ( but not other systems)

BUT it just depends on what system your using them in. I can take my PSS silver interconnects and put them in one system and they sound great..move them another system and it sounds like shit.

to simply put in a interconnect ( or speaker wire or what not) and judge it in only one system with one setup is unfair. Personally I don't think there's such a thing as a bad interconnect ( well there is the one that got tore up - it's pretty bad) or a great one, they're all just different; and one that is best for one system will suck in another.

and I don't think you have to pay $2000 for good sound. In fact most really expensive stuff is "hard" sounding and lifeless, more exact maybe, but not as musical to my ears.

so we get back to personal taste......

[JBLnsince1959]

I ain't buyin' no reel of fluorescent pink cable to make ZWC's.

No matter HOW much y'all beg for it.

Nope....



Darn :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[scott fitlin]

God, I hope not.... I can't afford that.

I've heard great cable from Radio Shack ( I have a few) and real bad ones from Kimber,( I have those also) personally I like the hero's right now in my PS system ( but not other systems)

BUT it just depends on what system your using them in. I can take my PSS silver interconnects and put them in one system and they sound great..move them another system and it sounds like shit.

to simply put in a interconnect ( or speaker wire or what not) and judge it in only one system with one setup is unfair. Personally I don't think there's such a thing as a bad interconnect ( well there is the one that got tore up - it's pretty bad) or a great one, they're all just different; and one that is best for one system will suck in another.

and I don't think you have to pay $2000 for good sound. In fact most really expensive stuff is "hard" sounding and lifeless, more exact maybe, but not as musical to my ears.

so we get back to personal taste......I didnt go out and spend any money! I just played around with stuff I already had!

Truthfully, I left the RS cable where it is, for whatever reason, it does sound good. It doesnt change anything, but out of the cables I played with that I have left from my " better wire search " days, I didnt like any of them!

I have these MIT cables with boxes on the ends, supposed to time align the signal, etc, they were the worst of everything I played with today! They definitely muck up the highs.

I believe your correct in saying the most exact sounding is not always the best sounding, and in many cases its hard to listen to!

Now wheres Mrs. Lansing and those interconnects from Victorias Secret?

:D

[LE15-Thumper]

ONCE AGAIN !!!.......:offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic:

The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys.

Wow, have we proved that point here.:uhmmmm:

[Mrs Lansing]

I didnt go out and spend any money! I just played around with stuff I already had!

Truthfully, I left the RS cable where it is, for whatever reason, it does sound good. It doesnt change anything, but out of the cables I played with that I have left from my " better wire search " days, I didnt like any of them!

I have these MIT cables with boxes on the ends, supposed to time align the signal, etc, they were the worst of everything I played with today! They definitely muck up the highs.

I believe your correct in saying the most exact sounding is not always the best sounding, and in many cases its hard to listen to!

Now wheres Mrs. Lansing and those interconnects from Victorias Secret?

:D

The cables actually change colour in different light conditions..I really like that.

Age's ago I had a really hi end system with Cary, AR , Maggies and some other stuff..VPI and Clearaudio. I tried everything incl the best Gortz and these were the most musical! Now I am back to basics.....

I prefer amps that are pure tonally without being over detailed and etched and paper cone speakers..that seems to work well.

Must come over an see your system sometime.

[Mrs Lansing]

ONCE AGAIN !!!.......:offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic:

The difference between men and boys is the price of their toys.

Wow, have we proved that point here.:uhmmmm:

Oh yeah Baby..show me the real deal.

[demanddeepbass]

Rane has found the ultimate solution to all your snakeoil needs:

http://www.rane.com/pi14.html
Olly

[Titanium Dome]

When will they be in stock again? I want one so bad... :bouncy: :yes: :bouncy: