JBL L Series (1990s) [Archive] - Page 2

Titanium Dome

03-28-2009, 12:37 AM

Ray,

I might have the schematic somewhere for the L-7 crossover. I also have an update crossover schematic....somewhere....that was SUPPOSED to become the L-7DX. This was going to be a high-end, very smooth L-7 that sold with a DX-1 so it would be specifically used in the bi-amped mode. But it worked with the smooth dome tweeter and not the ribbed. And marketing lost interest, so it wasn't introduced. This will all take a little bit to find and get to you, but let me know if you are interested.

I also have test gear and so forth, and I'd certainly be willing to try to help a set of my babies to stay alive and loved. PM me and let's see what can be done.

Chris

Seriously, if you find the crossover (and any other) info on L-7DX, please let me see it. Pretty please...

Fred Sanford

03-28-2009, 04:36 AM

Fred,

I DID d othose LX'es, but the HP's I did were the HP-8B, HP-88F, etc. (AH!!!! I can't remember the model names anymore!!!!). THe HP-420, etc. were designed and built in Europe. I DO know something about them, but won't claim credit for designing them. I'm sure I could answer your questions.

Chris

Thanks for the reply! I knew the HP420 was a European design, that's why I was a bit surprised to read that you worked on "HP"s, but I guess this clarifies that - I'd never heard of the "HP-8B" etc. My questions mostly were regarding differences between model tiers (420/520) and what drove the choices at that time - nothing groundbreaking at all, just that they were an interesting twist on what was typical for JBL at the time.

Thanks for all the contributions, back then and here & now...

je

JonJeffman

03-30-2009, 08:41 PM

JBLAddict

03-30-2009, 09:11 PM

Hey there, I stumbled across this site and have been here for hours now. I'm new to the world of hi-fi and looking to upgrade my system, so hope you don't mind some newbie questions.

I'm looking for some quality sounding speakers for a stereo set-up, and when I try to get info from 'audiophile' sources, there seems to be an attitude that anything less than $1500 on Paradigm's or B+W's or electrostatics is something to be scoffed at as 'consumer grade' junk. Problem is (a) I can't afford this (b) I'm not convinced you can't get good speakers for a lot less than this. But on the other hand, I'm willing to pay enough that I'm satisfied for 10+ years and not looking to upgrade as soon as I have some cash in hand.

So, while I know there's obviously a bias on this forum as you're all JBL fans, are the L5's a truly top-notch speaker? Or are they just good for the price, or good for 'consumer grade'? Do they really stack up to higher end Paradigm's and B+W's, or other 'audiophile grade' speakers? (Or, as I'm suspecting, do 'consumer grade' and 'audiophile grade' have a lot more overlap than many would like to admit?)

There's a pair of L5's for sale in my neck of the woods for $550 canadian. This sounds higher than other's I've read about on this forum, but do you think this is a reasonable price? Ad says they've been stored for most of their life. Any advice on what I should be looking for if I go to check them out - any problematic components, etc?

Are the L5's not as picky as the L7's on placement? For now they'll be stuck in a bedroom, but I'm likely moving soon and they'll become the central stereo system.

Thanks for the advice (sorry for the long post - hopefully you had the patience to read it).

I own both, the L5 will play anywhere, L7s are more picky but still sound excellent in a non-ideal position. The L7 is full, rich, enveloping, the L5 output is less but still fills most medium size rooms very well with balanced, amazing output--everything you've read in previous posts...they fill my 10X15ft living space perfectly. The L5 market price is <300USD, though keep in mind you are getting a very very good speaker worth much more in the opinion of many here. Just feed them quality power and you'll be amazed at what your'e getting for the money.

Now that being said, I'm in the camp that says if I'm going to use something for thousands of hours over the next 5+yrs, and opportunities in my neck of the woods don't arise often, what's a hundred, two hundred more than "market" value over time? I say get em, enjoy em (which I promise you will, there's not a bad rvw of the L5 out there), and don't look back! Over a few years you'll have long forgotten about paying a small premium when you consider the endless hours of music pleasure they bring you. Now if you live in a place where they pop up often and you're hell bent on saving the shipping costs, you can afford a little patience..but weigh opportunity for acquisition against lost opportunity for listening time...

your seller is asking one of the highest prices I've seen for this speaker though, seems to know what he has, not sure if a counteroffer is possible.

SWIN

04-03-2009, 03:06 PM

Now owned my L7´s for 6 months.

These are really truly fantastic speakers, and they have meant a lot to me.
They replaced a pair of Yamaha 690 III, not too bad sounding speakers - but from another time.

When I first listned to the L7´s at the sellers house, and setup - the sound was medium to good, but very unbalanced, sharp shrill sound.
Please see my earlyer post from the sellers house - very bad placement, with sharp echoes from the stone walls.
The used equipment was not too good sounding either.

At my home, I have a very neutral, and laidback understated type of sound - and the very best sound comes from analog LP, with a highly neutral sound, and very good resolution at the top, digital don´t resolve the higher frequencies as a good MC cartridge - using Yamaha MC9 and MC11.

But, of cause, digital doesn´t have end of the side distortion, and it is usually the first tracks of a LP, that have audible superiority.
Digital in my setup have a more warm, present, live and neutral sound.

The speakers must be used biamped, to realize their full potential, and mine had been underused in the bass department, so I had to allow some time to get their full potential.

They really have a high resolution, and even the smallest of changes to the used equipent is instantly revealed.

Soundstage is very 3D, and i can hear sounds coming from left/right of the left/right speaker, and I have a truly enjoyable feeling of beeing there.
The soundstage of my LP/CD setup builds a soundstage behind the speakers, but cheaper equipment may be mutch more flat and up front.

All blemishes of the original recording is very mutch aparent, older CD´s sounds the worst, but the more recent ones really shines.

All together a truly high-end speaker, very sensetive of placement, used equipment, and of cause the recordings.
But very rewarding, and highly enjoyable and addictable under ideal circumstances.

/SWIN

penny2cp

04-05-2009, 06:53 PM

I am a newbie. I have scan through this whole thread. I think I have got enough info there to see I can get the pair of L7 selling on Audiogon right now.

I have a pair of L112 and enjoy them every much. Have them for about 10 years. I always like JBL but don't know enough which one to buy especially the newer models. Too bad JBL don't get much respect in USA and Canada. I can get more useful info by reading Stereo Sounds then anything I can find in North America. Does anyone know where can I listen to some newer JBL in Toronto area?

Thanks

JonJeffman

05-12-2009, 12:09 PM

Titanium Dome

05-12-2009, 03:32 PM

Sorry if this answer is somewhere in this thread, but I haven't been able to see it, but what type of power do you need to effectively drive the L5's or L7's?

I'm still in the early stages of building my new system and am keeping my eyes open for some L5/L7's in my area. I'm also looking at picking up a Rotel amp. I was looking at the RB-1070 or RB-981 which are 130 watts/ch, and I've heard they are conservatively rated. Would this be enough or should I be looking at the 200 W/ch amps? Has anyone paired these speakers up with Rotel equipment and did you like how they worked together?

Thanks for the advice.

I don't have a lot of experience with Rotel, so hopefully someone who has will step in.

As for power, I notice an improvement in both the L5 and the L7 when driven by 200w/ch amps. When I paired some L7s with 600W/ch Haflers, they wore out of this world, but I had to be careful with the volume control. The L7s would probably sound pretty good right up to the time they shredded themselves from too much power.

A 160W/ch Soundcraftsmen amp sounded pretty good with the L7s, but the 216W/ch Souncraftsmen with the same design sounded better.

JonJeffman

05-13-2009, 03:33 PM

Titanium Dome

05-13-2009, 07:13 PM

When I paired some L7s with 600W/ch Haflers, they wore out of this world,

Wow that's a lot of power if it "wore out of this world." Shoulda been "were." :o:

Titanium Dome

05-13-2009, 07:26 PM

Thanks for the reply Titanium Dome.

Would you say it's a fair assumption that the L7 sucks up a lot more power with that 12" woofer than the L5? Therefore if I do get the 130 W/ch amp (due to limited $) I should stick to looking for L5's and forget the L7's? (Although I'm sure if I saw a deal on L7's I'd buy them and then have an excuse to upgrade the amp)

And I know this next question is difficult to answer/quantify, but you say they sound better with 216 W/ch over 160 W/ch, but that's almost a given, so I guess the question is how much better? Did the 160 W/ch still put a smile on your face and would be good (if you didn't know what you were missing) or did it leave you wanting more right from the get-go?

Thanks again

If you think at some point you're going to get L7s, then just get them now.

It's like the difference between making out and having sex. Making out is great until you finally have sex, then making out isn't as satisfying as it used to be.

Same goes for the amp. Of course it's not just the power output; it's the sound output, too. I had a 250W/ch Carver amp that made the L7s scream in constricted agony. I dumped it fast.

The two Soundcraftsmen amps I mentioned are from the same line and basically have the same sonic fingerprint. But the more powerful amp gives the L7 more headroom and a bit more in reserve. An extra 50-60 Watts is not going to make it play any louder, but it makes it play better.

My grin upon discovering the improvement with the bigger amp could be described as "shit-eating," a sort of oxymoron when thought about logically, but it comes from the behavior centuries ago (and even today) of insane people delighting in eating feces to the great horror of their caretakers. It's a really, really crazy grin.

JonJeffman

05-13-2009, 10:06 PM

It's like the difference between making out and having sex. Making out is great until you finally have sex, then making out isn't as satisfying as it used to be.

Well that quote definitely gets a 'tip of the hat' :D

Shit-eating grin is what I'm going for, so I guess my budget for my new system just got adjusted upwards (again :( )

evans224

05-14-2009, 11:17 PM

I'm using a Hafler 9505 with 250 watts/channel with L5's. They LOVE the power, and sound wonderful! I have listened to quite a few three way studio monitors in the past few years, 4311A and B, L112, 4410,4412. Also floorstanders L100T,L150A, 240Ti and Jubal (my LEAST favorite). 2 way 18Ti and L1. The 4-way L5's, to me, have the sound I have been looking for. The midrange has backed off and smoothed out, the highs don't hurt when played loud, and the bass is much better than expected. I can't wait to "have sex"! Keeping my eyes out for L7's in the SF Bay Area.

Titanium Dome

05-15-2009, 03:22 PM

evans224

05-15-2009, 10:08 PM

That's a great amp and speaker combo. You're already to "third base." :rotfl:
I have an Adcom GFP-750 preamp to go with it. I've got a good lead from third.......:bouncy:

SWIN

05-31-2009, 01:30 PM

Please note, there is a huge improvement in the quality of sound, if you biamp the L7.

A nice tubeamp for the top, and some solid state muscle for the side mounted woofer.

After trying some different D/A chips, I have found, that the old Philips TDA-1541A really suits the L7.

Wide open sound, with lots of detail everywhere.

/SWIN

BMWCCA

05-31-2009, 04:04 PM

Please note, there is a huge improvement in the quality of sound, if you biamp the L7.I don't doubt it. Are you truly bi-amping yours or are you simply losing the bus straps and using one amp for the HF input and another on the LF without decoupling the two passive crossovers? :confused: If so, JBL calls that dual-amp bi-wiring and they describe several bi-wire configurations in the L7 manual supplement.

To truly bi-amp the L7s requires moving the blue jumper inside the cabinet on the crossover and using a separate active crossover to separate the signal prior to the two amps that will feed the decoupled inputs on the L7s. I haven't really found there's much difference at all in using two Crown PS-400s to dual-amp bi-wire my L7s and I've not felt the need to try true bi-amping with them. Maybe some day, just for fun, when I have the Ashly crossover out of the bi-amped 4345 system.

The L7s are great speakers either way. I just haven't been blown away by what I hear bi-wiring them versus just using a single 250wpc Crown with them. :dont-know

JBLAddict

05-31-2009, 07:15 PM

I don't doubt it. Are you truly bi-amping yours or are you simply losing the bus straps and using one amp for the HF input and another on the LF without decoupling the two passive crossovers? :confused: If so, JBL calls that dual-amp bi-wiring and they describe several bi-wire configurations in the L7 manual supplement.

To truly bi-amp the L7s requires moving the blue jumper inside the cabinet on the crossover and using a separate active crossover to separate the signal prior to the two amps that will feed the decoupled inputs on the L7s. I haven't really found there's much difference at all in using two Crown PS-400s to dual-amp bi-wire my L7s and I've not felt the need to try true bi-amping with them. Maybe some day, just for fun, when I have the Ashly crossover out of the bi-amped 4345 system.

The L7s are great speakers either way. I just haven't been blown away by what I hear bi-wiring them versus just using a single 250wpc Crown with them. :dont-know

sooo strange this was the most recent thread, as I logged on specifically to post a "how to bi-amp/wire" question for my L7 in another section. My long awaited Soundcraftsmen should be here Tu/We and I've been trying to figure out how to do a two amp hookup when they have different power?

If the HF amp is 75WPC and the LF 200WPC, and the amps don't have a gain control, how do you get everything in balance if they're both fed from a Y-connector out of the preamp?

BMWCCA

05-31-2009, 07:30 PM

If the HF amp is 75WPC and the LF 200WPC, and the amps don't have a gain control, how do you get everything in balance if they're both fed from a Y-connector out of the preamp?Well, you can't, really. Or at least not easily. But then if they have no attenuators, they're both running BTTW so if they're similar they could have similar input sensitivity and impedance. If you're truly bi-amping, you should have some level control on your active crossover. But that's why I'm using two Crowns in my bi-amp system (not bothering on the L7s).

Do you have a copy of the owner's manual supplement? It's got all the bi-wire information you'll need: http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Owner%27s%20Manual/L7%20om%20Supplement.pdf

What amps are you going to be using? What's the Soundcraftsmen model? Those two odd-balls that recently sold on Ebay have level pots on the back.

HCSGuy

05-31-2009, 07:53 PM

If your amplifiers have different gain structures, your sound will either be bass heavy or bass shy. You can correct this by adding an attenuator to the higher gain amplifier. If you know the gain difference you can get passive fixed value RCA attenuators (Harris Labs makes them, they're $20-30/pr). Otherwise you can get a passive preamplifier and put it in line with the higher gain amplifier. I used to have a PS Audio preamp you could run passive that I kept for this purpose. Otherwise, look for a Creek Audio preamp on Audiogon or Ebay, or build your own. Unfortunately, if you have to buy a passive preamp, it will be very similar in cost to the going rate for a JBL M552 or Ashly active crossover, which have gain controls already and add lots of flexibility.
Hope this helps...

JBLAddict

05-31-2009, 10:22 PM

Well, you can't, really. Or at least not easily. But then if they have no attenuators, they're both running BTTW so if they're similar they could have similar input sensitivity and impedance. If you're truly bi-amping, you should have some level control on your active crossover. But that's why I'm using two Crowns in my bi-amp system (not bothering on the L7s).

Do you have a copy of the owner's manual supplement? It's got all the bi-wire information you'll need: http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Owner%27s%20Manual/L7%20om%20Supplement.pdf

What amps are you going to be using? What's the Soundcraftsmen model? Those two odd-balls that recently sold on Ebay have level pots on the back.

The Soundcraftsmen is the S800 I was asking about in my "Souncraftsmen purchase help" thread in the Consumer Amp section--it's a 200WPC

(I actually asked you in the same thread what models those oddballs were as they're about 25miles from my house and I considered grabbing the 200WPC unit if the bidding didn't run up out of control..but it did so I passed--still don't know what model#s they were but looks just like the PP4 minus the A/B channels?)

anyway...I'm planning to use the pre-outs on my HK AVR for the L/R L7s.....and had this crazy idea:blink: that I could use the AVRs L/R out for the HF and the pre-amp outs to the Soundcraftsmen to power the LF? But not sure if once the pre-outs are employed the AVR will no longer send power out the regular L/R? apparently it would be out of balance anyway...

to the other suggestions from HCS, I definitely won't be building anything or buying a new pre-amp since I'm enamored with my Lseries home theater using the HK.

all in all, if you say you've tried to identical high power amps in a bi-wire config and don't notice an appreciable difference, I'd like to skip the hassle and stick with my one SC amp using the HK pre-outs....though TiDome (and now SWIN) really raved about the two amp bi-wire improvements?

Titanium Dome

05-31-2009, 11:02 PM

The easiest--though not necessarily the cheapest-- way to do it is to get two identical amps, send the full range signal to both amps and let the internal crossovers sort it out. Due to the thoughtful design of the crossover networks, two in each box remember, this is one speaker where I think the passive bi-amping returns some benefits beyond merely increasing headroom.

Titanium Dome

05-31-2009, 11:10 PM

I'm not sure how much flexibility your HK has in terms of tone control, but I found that a Fosgate FAP-T1 for example allowed enough attenuation or enhancement of various frequencies that I could raise or lower things + or - 15 dB with the built-in parametric EQ, more than compensating for any gain differences.

Another tool for doing this is an old Soundcraftsmen AS2000, but there again, it's another piece of equipment. :)

BMWCCA

06-01-2009, 06:56 AM

all in all, if you say you've tried to identical high power amps in a bi-wire config and don't notice an appreciable difference, I'd like to skip the hassle and stick with my one SC amp using the HK pre-outs....though TiDome (and now SWIN) really raved about the two amp bi-wire improvements?
I certainly don't dispute that others have found an improvement when dual-amp bi-wiring the L7s. I respect the greater knowledge many of these folks have on the subject, compared to mine. I've tried it with two Crown PS-400s but was not able to perform satisfactory A-B comparisons. Now that I have two pairs of L7s, I suppose I could re-run a comparison but it would take three PS-400s and that I don''t have. I could do it with three PS-200s but then that wouldn't control for the power difference versus giving twice the power. My assumption in my first solo test was that the PS-400 was more than adequate for the demands of the L7 and using two didn't contribute anything concrete I could point to beyond wishful thinking. I could compare two pairs with either the Soundcraftsmen Pro-Power-Four versus twin PS-400s but I already know I prefer the single Crown to the Pro-Power, to my ears, on the L7s. Perhaps there's some validity to trying a bridged PS-200 to each HF section of one pair of L7s with a PS-400 on the LF versus one PS-400 driving another pair but it still seems to lack some degree of scientific method control. I prefer to run two complete and identical systems, other than one extra amp, off the same source as the lag time in swapping speaker leads makes fair comparisons difficult. Though I suppose placement issues when using two pairs of L7s would provide its own experimental variables. :hmm:

The nice thing is this thread has had such a long life, even if I get around to trying this a year from now, it will still be current info. :applaud:

JBLAddict

06-01-2009, 12:04 PM

The nice thing is this thread has had such a long life, even if I get around to trying this a year from now, it will still be current info. :applaud:

I'm not sure TiD realized this thread would in fact be "L7 Heaven" for a couple years after when he put that as the title in the early threads?? Of course, he can credit himself with a self-fulfilling prophecy by motivating a number of us to pursue Lseries purchases with the richly detailed descriptions of the xovers, drivers, sound comparisons through various experimentation

In my case, I'm fortunate to have a room with >3ft from the back and side walls, add to that what I think are very good modern electronics in the HK AVR, my hunch is the huge upgrade in power (from 75WPC, +/-35amp HCC to the 210WPC, ?HCC) will be more than enough improvement for me to rest easy for a while.....though I hv thought about adding the floor spikes pointed to earlier in this thread as a cheap, impactful finishing touch (did you ever try that?)

JBLAddict

06-01-2009, 12:06 PM

Titanium Dome

06-01-2009, 05:01 PM

TiD, can you reiterate from early threads, say on a scale of 1-10, the improvement you found going from a single 100WPC, to a single 200WPC, to 2X200WPC?

Sure.

Caveat: This is not about how LOUD they get, this is about how they sound.

At 100W or even 50W they'll get just about as loud as at 200W, but they're starved for power and for headroom. To me they're a bit shrill and the 100W or less amp is probably driving into distortion as it tries to feed them at loud levels.

At 200W, the speakers hit their stride, running stronger and more evenly. They're not really louder so much as they're better, like an athlete that's fit and fed rather than one coming off a starvation diet.

With my current set up of slightly more than 200W each for the LF and for the MF/HF, the sound is really effortless like an athlete that's fit, fed, rested, and carbo-loaded. It's just smooth, powerful, quick and effortless.

Again, this is with optimal placement. I can't speak to other set ups.

Hope that helps.

JBLAddict

06-01-2009, 11:11 PM

Sure.

Caveat: This is not about how LOUD they get, this is about how they sound.

At 100W or even 50W they'll get just about as loud as at 200W, but they're starved for power and for headroom. To me they're a bit shrill and the 100W or less amp is probably driving into distortion as it tries to feed them at loud levels.

At 200W, the speakers hit their stride, running stronger and more evenly. They're not really louder so much as they're better, like an athlete that's fit and fed rather than one coming off a starvation diet.

With my current set up of slightly more than 200W each for the LF and for the MF/HF, the sound is really effortless like an athlete that's fit, fed, rested, and carbo-loaded. It's just smooth, powerful, quick and effortless.

Again, this is with optimal placement. I can't speak to other set ups.

Hope that helps.

very helpful thanks, good analogies...and precisely what I'm expecting from my new SC unit. My current 75WPC HK is very nice at medium volume but the strain and distortion become noticably worse beyond 70% of max output, where I often want to tread; by 80% the sound is no longer enjoyable. I'm hoping the Soundcraftsmen makes all levels cleaner, tighter at all volumes, but in particular at those higher registers

I'll put this topic to rest until I have the new unit running, at which point I'm guessing my next report will entail my intention to buy a second SC unit

JBLAddict

06-03-2009, 09:51 PM

BMWCCA

06-03-2009, 10:41 PM

BMW, makes me think of the 4333-L7 trials, and that the L7's current demand, especially in those 4ohm sections, were probably not given justice with the amps used that day?What can I say that hasn't already been said? :dont-know They like a lot of power! :D

I use a 200-wpc Crown PS-400 on mine. We had two PS-400s available at the comparo but we were having too much fun with everything else to spend that much time on swapping amps. We had several of Fred's Adcoms and everything sounded fine on those so that's what we stuck with. I've tried the L7s with my 240-wpc Soundcraftsmen Pro-Power-Four and just prefer the Crown, for some reason I may have forgotten by now. Haven't listened to the L7s in a while since while the family is away I have the living room—and the 4345s—to myself. ;)

Titanium Dome

06-03-2009, 11:00 PM

S800 arrived and intalled! CoC says 240W each channel :D What...an....improvement!!

Chris Hagen had said in a PM that the quality high current really cleans up, in his words, "the more seriously 4 Ohm sections of the speaker, 150-300Hz and 3-5KHz"

......and I'm hearing that difference precisely! My HK at 75WPC was/is nice for sure, but this is a new level, in particular at higher volume, just cleaner and much more impactful, is the best way I can describe it, though TDs fueled athlete analogy was admittedly much better.

with each level I climb I quickly itch for more, figure I'll be grabbing the next SC that comes up to try the two amp bi-wire.....but as I have Steely Dan's Hey Nineteen (personal refence song) pouring out at the moment, hard to imagine it getting much better, honestly?

That S800 has big balls, so to speak. It's not just the Watts out, it's the capacity of the power supply and the bullet proof build of everything. :bouncy:

Now, imagine one channel driving the woofer and one channel driving everything else.

What can I say that hasn't already been said? :dont-know They like a lot of power! :D

I use a 200-wpc Crown PS-400 on mine. We had two PS-400s available at the comparo but we were having too much fun with everything else to spend that much time on swapping amps. We had several of Fred's Adcoms and everything sounded fine on those so that's what we stuck with. I've tried the L7s with my 240-wpc Soundcraftsmen Pro-Power-Four and just prefer the Crown, for some reason I may have forgotten by now. Haven't listened to the L7s in a while since while the family is away I have the living room—and the 4345s—to myself. ;)

The Pro Power Four is a really good amp, but it's not the equal of the shoebox amps, IMO. I would agree that a Crown would be a good mate. When I hook the L7s to the 600W/ch Haflers, it's hard to believe it's the same speaker. I just have to be careful how much volume I give 'em. :bomb:

LowPhreak

06-04-2009, 03:22 AM

When I hook the L7s to the 600W/ch Haflers, it's hard to believe it's the same speaker.

In this case, power does not corrupt! ;) Always better to have too much than not enough...with audio anyway.

Fred Sanford

06-04-2009, 03:31 AM

Originally Posted by JBLAddict http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=254153#post254153)
BMW, makes me think of the 4333-L7 trials, and that the L7's current demand, especially in those 4ohm sections, were probably not given justice with the amps used that day?

Do-over! Yeah, we went for the easiest approach that day, for the sake of expedience & level matching. A true shootout should have given more prep time, and kept the focus on only those two systems in each one's best configuration.

I know, I'm still planning/plotting the layout for my rig, to double up & bridge the 2535s, giving ~200WPC to the 15"s & 60 WPC to the horns (with a proper active high pass in line). I'm sure there are still quite a few steps up for me to employ. Although, I recently received "Morph The Cat", and thoroughly enjoyed spinning it on this setup...

je

BMWCCA

06-04-2009, 06:31 AM

The Pro Power Four is a really good amp, but it's not the equal of the shoebox amps, IMO. Not that it's terribly germane to the L-series discussion, but one of the few Soundcraftsmen reviews on-line is of the Pro-Power-Four in which Julian Hirsch makes many comparisons to the PCR800 "shoebox" amp which he had tested earlier. Both reviews are available here: http://www.soundcraftsmen.com/test_reports.htm

From other information it seems the PCR800 and S800 are one and the same updated with numbers juggled in historic Soundcraftsmen fashion. Now I know everyone likes to say that Hirsch never met an audio device he didn't like, but I assume at least his opinion has some validity when comparing these two amps to each other. His concluding comments on the Pro-Power-Four include this:

". . . our measurements leave no doubt that [the Pro-Power-Four] is a close relative—with enhanced performance—of the PCR800, which is still in the Souncraftsmen line. It has a substantially greater current-output capability, greater high-frequency power capability, a quieter cooling system, and additional features of switchable outputs for two sets of speakers and an excellent output-level display. The price difference between the two amplifiers is modest and easily justified by the Pro-Power Four's added performance and features."Soundcraftsmen also sold a "shoebox" style Pro-Power-One (described as "all the performance features of the Pro-Power-Four in a smaller, non-rack-mountable chassis") at the same time as the PCR800, the difference being a newer, cleaner, front-panel design on the former. In 1989 the PCR800 MSRP was $539, the Pro-Power-One $579, and the Pro-Power-Four $849 so, even beyond the extra switches and bank of LEDs, Soundcraftsmen must have thought very highly of the Four.

I've always assumed, right or wrong, that they were all at the least essentially similar. :dont-know And I have nothing against un-rackable minimalist amps: I've owned an original "faceless" Crown D150 since it was new. ;)

Titanium Dome

06-04-2009, 07:28 AM

I've always assumed, right or wrong, that they were all at the least essentially similar. :dont-know And I have nothing against un-rackable minimalist amps: I've owned an original "faceless" Crown D150 since it was new. ;)

It's true the shoebox amps are not rack mountable as is, but I had four of them rack mounted for years in the available dual rack mount plate. That's four PCR800s in the space of two full sized amps.

I've read Hirsch's articles over the years, and I generally liked the guy. It was good to read his Soundcraftsmen reviews when they came out. I actually own three of the four products he reviewed here:

http://soundcraftsmen.com/test_reports.htm

plus I've got the Pro Control Three instead of the Pro Control Four. Of course, his measurements are unassailable. I just have a slightly different conclusion based on need and experience.

I don't really like those long rows of LEDs or need the switchable speaker output so I don't see those as pluses. OTOH, I like having two powerful amps take the same space as one.

Getting back to the L series, when I had the four L7, two L5, one L3 HT set up, the four PCR800s drove the whole thing reliably and with minimum space, and I had a channel left over for a sub. :)

BMWCCA

06-04-2009, 09:07 AM

So what you're saying is there's really no basis for this statement? ;)

The Pro Power Four is a really good amp, but it's not the equal of the shoebox amps, IMO.

Titanium Dome

06-04-2009, 10:00 AM

So what you're saying is there's really no basis for this statement? ;)

No, that's not what I'm saying. :nanana:

Julian is entitled to his measurements and opinions based on having equipment for a few days in a round robin of rotating gear. I'm entitled to my opinions based on years of ownership and use with the speakers in question. :p

JBLAddict

06-07-2009, 09:30 AM

Haven't listened to the L7s in a while since while the family is away I have the living room—and the 4345s—to myself. ;)

well, in that case, how about a little L7 to 4345 comparison? old school v. new school

BMWCCA

06-07-2009, 10:41 AM

well, in that case, how about a little L7 to 4345 comparison? old school v. new schoolUmm, that's how my journey to 43xx monitors began: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=22268 :D Heck, aren't they both "old school" these days?

No room in my home to play the 4345s and the L7s together for direct comparison. They're setup in different rooms with their own complete systems. I've learned that many here don't want to hear my enraptured account of my storied 4345 pair, anyway.

I love 'em. They've spoiled me, for sure. I've never heard better. That'll have to suffice. ;) I still enjoy the L7s and they continue to impress as I use them to compare other JBLs using that system (Soundcraftsmen DX4200, (2x) Crown PS-400), such as L96, L80Ts, etc.

JBLAddict

06-17-2009, 08:17 PM

Sure.

Caveat: This is not about how LOUD they get, this is about how they sound.

At 100W or even 50W they'll get just about as loud as at 200W, but they're starved for power and for headroom. To me they're a bit shrill and the 100W or less amp is probably driving into distortion as it tries to feed them at loud levels.

At 200W, the speakers hit their stride, running stronger and more evenly. They're not really louder so much as they're better, like an athlete that's fit and fed rather than one coming off a starvation diet.

With my current set up of slightly more than 200W each for the LF and for the MF/HF, the sound is really effortless like an athlete that's fit, fed, rested, and carbo-loaded. It's just smooth, powerful, quick and effortless.

Again, this is with optimal placement. I can't speak to other set ups.

Hope that helps.

I had a forum member recommend an amp w/ a high "dampening factor" for the L7, and read on the L7 audioreview.com page one reviewer stating that since JBL were traditionally highly dampened by design, pairing the L7 with a high dampening factor would make them sound shrill.....well this dampening is a spec I'm completely unfamiliar with, so wondering if anyone can help reconcile these two conflicting pcs. of advice? as you know I bought the Soundcraftsmen S800 ('93 model) and have been pleased, but this dampening thing has me a little confused:confused:

LowPhreak

06-17-2009, 10:01 PM

^ Damping factor is highly overrated/overhyped, and generally misunderstood. It has been used mostly as a marketing gimmick. Many amp mfg's use various ways to get to high claimed DF specs. Often those reported specs don't wind up amounting to a hill of beans in real-world use, since impedance as a function of frequency response will be all over the map at different frequencies and for different speakers - but the mfg's only give a DF spec for a specific frequency, say 50, 100, or 1000Hz @ a static, "___" ohms resistance. Thus, there's no accurate way to tell exactly how any given amp's output impedance is going to react to your particular speakers across the frequency range.

Any "review" on audioreview.com you have to take with a large block of salt, (and a couple shots of Cuervo). :p In 80-90% of the ones I've read there, the poster's don't know their asses from their elbows audio-wise. But they think they do, so they go ahead and put up their BS.

Get a respectable amp and see if you like it on your speakers. If not, try another amp. That's the only way to tell whether it'll sound good on your speakers - not from just reading a spec sheet. Specs and parts/topology info with audio gear is useful up to a point, but they alone won't tell you ultimately what the stuff is going to sound like with your components.

Titanium Dome

06-17-2009, 10:14 PM

I had a forum member recommend an amp w/ a high "dampening factor" for the L7, and read on the L7 audioreview.com page one reviewer stating that since JBL were traditionally highly dampened by design, pairing the L7 with a high dampening factor would make them sound shrill.....well this dampening is a spec I'm completely unfamiliar with, so wondering if anyone can help reconcile these two conflicting pcs. of advice? as you know I bought the Soundcraftsmen S800 ('93 model) and have been pleased, but this dampening thing has me a little confused:confused:

I assume the forum member isn't telling you to wet your speakers, i.e., dampen them. He/she probably means "damping factor." To make matters worse, if your amp is supposed to dampen your speakers, you'll get a hell of a shock. :shock: amps and moisture don't mix.

Okay, now that I've had my fun, that review in audioreview.com is bollocks. I wonder if you mean the one by our old friend Chris T. who got suspended then banned from this forum?

Our friends at Crown have a nice piece on damping factor in support of selling their amps.

http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/amps/damping_factor.pdf

The driver most affected by damping factor would be the LE120H-1 woofer, and it's one of the most versatile and consistent transducers I've ever heard, regardless of amp. IME, it's never met an amp it didn't like.

However, you can switch several amps in and out to see if you like the "sound" of one over the other. I just wouldn't be too concerned about damping factor, especially with regard to shrillness in the HF (I've never heard LF referred to as shrill) since tweeters and small drivers have neither a lot of mass nor a lot of excursion.

JBLAddict

06-18-2009, 10:43 AM

the review was no.10 by Jeff Peace located here, not crazy Tampa boy :blink::

http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/jbl/l7/PRD_119739_1594crx.aspx#review0

The L7 sounds wonderful with the Soundcraftsmen 240WPC S800 I picked up, I have no idea what it's dampening factor is since the owners manual hasn't any specs. and the CoC only a few, this not being one of them...(if anyone has a site with amp full specs for various models over the years, would love to have that link!)

The LHF member is a common name, who owns the S3100, 4425, L7 among others, so I respected the advice.

BMWCCA

06-18-2009, 11:01 AM

the review was no.10 by Jeff Peace located here, not crazy Tampa boy :blink::That'll teach you to believe everything you read on the Internets. ;)

T-domes sarcasm and humor were pointed at the misspelling of "damping" factor by yourself and the reviewer you've linked to. It's not "dampening", but damping, like a shock-absorber on a British car: damper, as in curb, check, restrain, restrict, limit, rein, brake, control, etc. In essence, not "dampen" as in "to make wet".

Soundcraftsmen lists the damping factor for my Pro-Power-Four amp at "greater than 200". Since everyone here seems to think the Pro-Power is inferior simply because it has knobs that people seem to lose, I'm sure the S800 much be far greater than that!;)

JBLAddict

06-18-2009, 11:42 AM

That'll teach you to believe everything you read on the Internets. ;)

T-domes sarcasm and humor were pointed at the misspelling of "damping" factor by yourself and the reviewer you've linked to. It's not "dampening", but damping, like a shock-absorber on a British car: damper, as in curb, check, restrain, restrict, limit, rein, brake, control, etc. In essence, not "dampen" as in "to make wet".

Soundcraftsmen lists the damping factor for my Pro-Power-Four amp at "greater than 200". Since everyone here seems to think the Pro-Power is inferior simply because it has knobs that people seem to lose, I'm sure the S800 much be far greater than that!;)

Thanks for clarifying the grammatic misgivings...well, the internet(s) is/are a series of "tubes" anyway, so moisture flow does make some sense here :D

the prior Soundcraftsmen line "discussion" I interpreted to be more of paying more for lights, A/B outputs, and/or gain control, in a larger box, rather than pure performance differences manifested as sound reproduction. In that vain, I'd guess the PP line and shoebox units are fairly similar sounding on the L7, though I will admit that I would like the a/b capability of the PP4 to do some comparison among my various speaker families.

btw, you seem to know prices pretty well, do you know the MSRP of my uncommon S800 model of '93?

BMWCCA

06-18-2009, 01:01 PM

do you know the MSRP of my uncommon S800 model of '93?The last price list Soundcraftsmen sent me was from 1/89. It showed the Pro-Power-Four at MSRP of $849 with a 25% discount for ordering direct since I had no local dealer. The Pro-Power-Three was the same amp without the LED meters and listed for $749. The Pro-Power-One was the same amp but in the smaller "shoe-box" design with similar horizontal front-panel vents, power switch, and clip indicators and listed for $579. The 205-watt PCR800 was essentially a Pro-Power-One with just a plain front panel and was listed at an MSRP of $539. I believe the S800 was simply a later name for the PCR800 coinciding with the MTX takeover. That's as close as I can get you! :)

JBLAddict

06-18-2009, 07:48 PM

thanks!!

Titanium Dome

06-18-2009, 07:57 PM

The last price list Soundcraftsmen sent me was from 1/89. It showed the Pro-Power-Four at MSRP of $849 with a 25% discount for ordering direct since I had no local dealer. The Pro-Power-Three was the same amp without the LED meters and listed for $749. The Pro-Power-One was the same amp but in the smaller "shoe-box" design with similar horizontal front-panel vents, power switch, and clip indicators and listed for $579. The 205-watt PCR800 was essentially a Pro-Power-One with just a plain front panel and was listed at an MSRP of $539. I believe the S800 was simply a later name for the PCR800 coinciding with the MTX takeover. That's as close as I can get you! :)

For a guy who likes the Pro Power stuff, you sure got it right! :p I have some of those catalogs around here, but now I don't have to dig them out.

BMWCCA

06-18-2009, 09:23 PM

For a guy who likes the Pro Power stuff, you sure got it right! :p I have some of those catalogs around here, but now I don't have to dig them out.It was actually the DX4200 I was after at the time. (I have two now though I prefer the Pro-Power-Four and Pro-EQ-44 to the all-in-one these days.) Never knew when I squirreled away those catalogs that I'd own half the stuff in them decades later! :D

Slare

06-25-2009, 08:12 AM

I've seen a lot of discussion in this thread about passive bi-amping L7's, and have another point to add in it's favor that hasn't been mentioned yet.

I think most folks realize low frequencies are what takes the power, L7's can take ~500-600 watt bass hits without much trouble. One of the added benefits to bi-amping is that by having two amps (even if they are of modest power, say 120w each) running high and low frequencies, you don't have the same problem of a bass hit soaking up all your amp headroom and then having distortion/clipping in the high frequencies because if it.

I think this is why passive biamping even with two modest amplifiers helps "clean" the high volume sound up quality so much. Not to mention making life a little safer for those semi-precious tweeters. If you have a true equal power 7.1 reciever and can do it, I think it's worth the extra wiring hassle.

I'm running a Denon AVR-987 that allows passive biamping using the amp 6 & 7 channels, and the benefit of biamping is pretty clear to me at high volumes, even with the modest ~110wpc amplfiers.

I also have a Kenwood M2A separate that I've ran with them in pure stereo which certainly makes a difference. Unfortunately I don't have enough A/C breaker to handle it along with everything else in my 5.1 setup. :banghead:

There are good AFFORDABLE 200+wpc separate amps out there, lot of them buried in "old fashioned" component stacks people are just trying to get rid off. If you have L7's there's really not much financial burden in getting them a decent amp.

BMWCCA

06-25-2009, 01:22 PM

I think most folks realize low frequencies are what takes the power, L7's can take ~500-600 watt bass hits without much trouble. One of the added benefits to bi-amping is that by having two amps (even if they are of modest power, say 120w each) running high and low frequencies, you don't have the same problem of a bass hit soaking up all your amp headroom and then having distortion/clipping in the high frequencies because if it.Yes but since this is passive bi-amping—or two-amp bi-wiring as JBL calls it—you're not really separating the full frequency range as you would with an active crossover and true bi-amping. That's been the philosophical question asked here about passive two-amp bi-wiring that's never really been put to bed: Does the amp really have a lighter load just because the speakers can't produce the full range even though you're feeding full program material to both the high side and the low side of the L7's passive crossover? In fact, for this type of hookup, JBL recommends the same amp power rating for both the LF input as the MF-HF input.

It's just MHO, of course, but my impression from trying this with two Crown PS400 amps is that it really makes no difference other than that brought on by wishful thinking. It might help if the amps just weren't that powerful but I've not tried the bi-wiring with my PS200s. Now you can do real active bi-amping with the L7s but you'll need an activer crossover and you'll have to go inside the crossover to move a jumper to truly separate the crossover sections.

Fred Sanford

06-25-2009, 02:09 PM

Yes but since this is passive bi-amping—or two-amp bi-wiring as JBL calls it—you're not really separating the full frequency range as you would with an active crossover and true bi-amping. That's been the philosophical question asked here about passive two-amp bi-wiring that's never really been put to bed: Does the amp really have a lighter load just because the speakers can't produce the full range even though you're feeding full program material to both the high side and the low side of the L7's passive crossover? In fact, for this type of hookup, JBL recommends the same amp power rating for both the LF input as the MF-HF input.

It's just MHO, of course, but my impression from trying this with two Crown PS400 amps is that it really makes no difference other than that brought on by wishful thinking. It might help if the amps just weren't that powerful but I've not tried the bi-wiring with my PS200s. Now you can do real active bi-amping with the L7s but you'll need an activer crossover and you'll have to go inside the crossover to move a jumper to truly separate the crossover sections.

Nothing conclusive here, but just as a point of reference:

I'm running 4333As bi-amped, currently in a sort of combo active/passive setup that may shed some light on this question. The signal from my DAC splits and hits an active x-over for the low-pass, then to a 60W amp, then to the 15" (passive does not stay in line in this configuration). The other side of the split signal heads straight to an identical 60W amp, then in to the top section of the passive crossover (which stays in line always) & on to the horns. In my head, the amp running the highs is seeing full-range signal at its input side, and amplifying full-range signal, therefore it's not running as efficiently as it should/could. Some here have said that the passive filters remaining in line reduce the load on the amp to some degree, I can't honestly say that I understand the theory behind that (that's a reflection on me, not on them). The interesting observation to me is that the high freq amps light the clip lights well before the low freq amps do - this tells me that I'm wasting amp power on the top end, and this semi-passive bi-amping doesn't really gain much for me.

Yes, I'm eventually going to upgrade my active crossover to address this, and add a second GFA 2535 to the mix, giving me ~200WPC lows and 60WPC highs, all properly filtered at the input signal side. My hesitation so far is that a simple/typical active crossover has only one freq & slope selection, and I'm not confident that with the high freq passive filters in line I can get satisfactory results without potentially fighting against those filters. Dual freq & slope crossover settings and properly calibrated analyzing tools would be the way to go.

je

hjames

06-25-2009, 02:51 PM

I thought you had an Ashley active EQ available over there ...?
Or did I have too much fun in my college daze?

Nothing conclusive here, but just as a point of reference:

I'm running 4333As bi-amped, currently in a sort of combo active/passive setup ... and this semi-passive bi-amping doesn't really gain much for me.

Yes, I'm eventually going to upgrade my active crossover to address this, and add a second GFA 2535 to the mix, giving me ~200WPC lows and 60WPC highs, all properly filtered at the input signal side. My hesitation so far is that a simple/typical active crossover has only one freq & slope selection, and I'm not confident that with the high freq passive filters in line I can get satisfactory results without potentially fighting against those filters. Dual freq & slope crossover settings and properly calibrated analyzing tools would be the way to go.

je

Fred Sanford

06-25-2009, 04:32 PM

I thought you had an Ashley active EQ available over there ...?
Or did I have too much fun in my college daze?

Ashly active, yep, doing only the low-pass to the woofers @ 800Hz. When I try to use it for both highs & lows, though, I can't seem to get it to:

1] not have some overlap with the passives still in place on the high side

*or*

2] cut off the low-pass too low, leaving an audible dip in the response around the crossover point

I'm thinking I need an active that has independant crossover points & slopes for highs and lows. One cheap temp fix might be Harrison Labs F-Mod high passes in line at 500Hz before the amp for the horns.

je

JonJeffman

06-25-2009, 10:32 PM

JonJeffman

06-25-2009, 10:43 PM

evans224

06-26-2009, 12:45 AM

Can I hijack this thread back to the L5 for a minute? I'm quickly realizing that the 'going rate' doesn't seem to apply up here in Canada, and since they're not easily shipped I'm stuck with what I can find, but how much of a deduct do you think missing grills are worth? And are the grills purely cosmetic? I know on Paradigm's website they say the grills are part of the diffraction/wave guide design and should be left on.

Also, the seller claims these are 6 years old - aren't these much older than this? Was there only the one version of L5, no L5b or anything like that?

Any opinions, as always, are greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
The last time the L5 was made was 1996.
The missing grills should not affect the sound. However, asthetically they make a big difference. Parts are no longer made for these, and I have very rarely seen the grills come up on eBay. I would think they would be worth around $200-250

BMWCCA

06-26-2009, 05:37 AM

The L5 is unique within this series in that it uses two grilles per speaker. Of course you don't need grilles on any JBL and there's some argument as to whether or not many sound better without them. But you asked about how that affects their value and I'd have to say drastically if you ever hope to resell them. If you only want to listen to them, don't mind the look without grilles, don't ever want to sell them or don't care about how much you'll get, and don't have kids that will kick or push-in the cones, you should be okay.

I don't know where you live in Canada since you don't say but I've purchased two sets of L5s in the Boston area for $200/pair or less and Boston is a lot closer to parts of Canada than it is to me. ;) I don't know what price you're considering but since many speakers—including JBLs—that don't perform as well as the L5s seem to sell often in the $500 to $800 range, whatever you have to spend for a good pair of L5s can easily be rationalized in oh so many ways . . . if you really want to.

Fred Sanford

06-26-2009, 06:39 AM

Fred, your issues are kind of in line with the questions I've always had about active biamping - while there are theoretical benefits to it, am I really going to have the knowledge and measurement tools to properly set the crossover freq, slopes, and attenuation to balance out drivers of various efficiencies, better than the fine folks at JBL did originally? Are active filters pretty user friendly and are the x-over freq & slopes easy to find for most speakers?

I found this website very informative regarding the theoretical benefits of active biamping, and kind of says that passive biamping doesn't do all that much. Guess I'll have to try it out someday when I can afford to have several amps kicking around.

http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm

When you're replacing a passive network with an active crossover before the power amps, I think the benefits can be immediate and the setup is relatively easy*...or at least experimentation is, and the results can be gauged by your own happiness. When you're combining an active with one or more passive filters that stay in line, it gets a bit more complex. I've actually approached this in a reverse order from most people, I've been using active crossovers almost exclusively in PA applications for many years. Unfortunately, most of my testing/analysing gear belonged to previous employers, so for now I'm without...though I may be acquiring or at least borrowing some soon.

je

compression driver compensation would be one exception

Slare

08-10-2009, 12:55 PM

I'm getting a little bored and was thinking about trying bi-amping with my L7's. I've thought about this before but my current room is small, and running subs hasn't made it all that important to me.

However my subs are on a dedicated amp that I have to turn on each time. Since it has a fan I tend to keep it off or it turns into a dust collector. Because of this and the capabilities of the L7's, I'm running in full range mode with no subs more and more often lately. Only firing up the subs up for a real sit-down movie session.

I prefer not to use the subs for music listening. Even with my subs balanced I just prefer pure 2 channel output on the L7's.

My receiver is a Denon AVR-987. A solid unit for a receiver. 110wpc with decent ratings (not 1kHz/10% THD type).

I have three different methods in mind using either one of two standalone amplifiers I have. I don't have room to use both amps.

1.) NHT B-20 subwoofer amplifier. This is an odd peice of equipment but offers 250x2rms at 8ohms with a built-in active high pass pre-out. It's meant to be used in a studio setup that has a seperate top end amplifier or powered monitors. So I could use it to drive the bottom of the L7's (low pass crossover is defeatable), and send the 110Hz (highest setting available) hp into the Denon, which would then power the top of the L7's. This would be the truest bi-amp setup as I'd have some active crossover keeping everything under 110Hz out of the top end receiver amplifiers. I think this would be best.

2.) Kenwood M2A Basic - a pretty solid ~250wpc amp rather good headroom and low impedance drive compatibility. Use this to run the L7 bottom, Denon runs the top, but there is no active crossover working.

3.) Kenwood M2A Basic - Just run it full range to the coupled L7's and skip the Denon amp alltogether.

Any thoughts? I've attached the B-20 amplifier manual if anyone is interested. They pop up on ebay from time to time and are a rather spectacular bargain for what you get, if you need such an item.

I have odd equipment as I'm a bargain hunter. The M2A basic was a craigslist find at <$50, the NHT unit was an ebay grab for ~$150 that I eventually intended to use as a DIY basement sub amplifier...

JBLAddict

11-12-2009, 08:17 AM

Yes but since this is passive bi-amping—or two-amp bi-wiring as JBL calls it—you're not really separating the full frequency range as you would with an active crossover and true bi-amping. That's been the philosophical question asked here about passive two-amp bi-wiring that's never really been put to bed: Does the amp really have a lighter load just because the speakers can't produce the full range even though you're feeding full program material to both the high side and the low side of the L7's passive crossover? In fact, for this type of hookup, JBL recommends the same amp power rating for both the LF input as the MF-HF input.

It's just MHO, of course, but my impression from trying this with two Crown PS400 amps is that it really makes no difference other than that brought on by wishful thinking. It might help if the amps just weren't that powerful but I've not tried the bi-wiring with my PS200s. Now you can do real active bi-amping with the L7s but you'll need an activer crossover and you'll have to go inside the crossover to move a jumper to truly separate the crossover sections.

after touching on my experience upgrading my L7 source from a 75WPC HK-AVR, to a 230WPC Soundcraftsmen, to 2x230WPC Soundcraftsmen in the Consumer Amp section up until yesterday, I though it more appropriate to continue that discussion in the L series speaker thread where other L7 owners might find it. This last post from August turns out to be seamless lead in.

Having now had 3 days to test out the "two amp biwire" as it's called in the L7 Supplement, I can attest to what others have said in this thread about the improvement, per the Supplement recommendation:

"In fact, since the crossover point for the L7's HF/LF connections is 150Hz, using amplifiers of the same power for both woofer and midbass/midrange/treble connections is recommended"

Without overstating, I'm finding a very noticeable difference in MF/HF output and detail. Initially, I thought it overly bright, but then realized the seemingly recessed mid-range character of the L7 (which I was never happy with) just wasn't being fully being brought to life, and what I thought was an overemphasis on LF may just have been a power imbalance. Vocals, snare drum shots, and cymbals are much more pronounced and more back toward the forward character I was accustomed to for decades on my L100, the bottom end has dropped a few dB (noticeably and a good thing), all in what seems a much better balanced output across the freq. range. When hearing the Everest2 I was taken back by the presence of LF coming from 2-15" without being overwhelming (as I considered the L7 to be prior to the two amp bi-wire).

Titanium Dome

11-12-2009, 10:46 AM

Great insight and thanks for posting it here.

There's a lot of improvement to be had from this relatively easy procedure.

Regis

11-19-2009, 02:38 PM

....Without overstating, I'm finding a very noticeable difference in MF/HF output and detail. Initially, I thought it overly bright, but then realized the seemingly recessed mid-range character of the L7 (which I was never happy with) just wasn't being fully being brought to life, ......

Just got done listening to the L7's and I agree about this recessed Midrange characteristic. The 4315's and many of the other JBL's have a much more pronounced and forward midrange than the L7's demonstrate and I like the solution. Just have to double up on the amps, though I'm going to have to make them XLR capable. Oddly enough, the L5's don't have this problem.

Regis

11-19-2009, 02:56 PM

Another 8 hour round trip yesterday to San Diego to pick up two pairs of the L series. Initially, it was just the L7's, but then a near mint pair of L5's came up too in the same area and I just had to have them too.

I first, must thank Sir Ti Dome for his concise documentation of his impressions of these way-underrated JBL speakers. They neither have the panache of the vintage 70's JBL's, nor the absolute newest technology of the Performance Series, Synthesis, Array, etc, etc. So their kind of stuck in the middle and that's a good thing bargain wise, as I picked up both pair for very cheap, even by recent L7 prices. The poor economy sure helps the buyer on just about anything these days.

Went home at lunch today to hear them, as I didn't get to demo them when I purchased them.

First, the L5's. My main system is being stored far away, so I had little choice for what was driving them today. An old, but OK sized Yamaha Home Theatre receiver, with the CD's played through a vintage RCA dvd player of el-cheapo quality. THe wiring is that tiddly tiny black wires you'd find on a shelf system. But something is better than nothing when you want to try them out.

As the CD started to play, I had to admit that I was somewhat surprised at how good the L5's sounded. The bass is really solid. No, it doesn't go to really low frequencies, but what's there can easily be felt in the gut and the chair and is tight and clean. The crossover and the speakers make for a seamless transition across all the drivers. There is a nice coherence and evenness across all of them. The sound is nicely detailed without being overly bright or forward. They are a really nice sounding pair of speakers and I could easily live with just these alone. You could almost live without a subwoofer supplement with these as they are that good. The 8" woofer does a surprising job of kicking out more-than-adequate bass.

Now the L7's. These are great speakers, but the recessed midrange is definitely there. I was thinking, maybe, no midbass hump as was popular on so many 70's JBLs, but I think as JBLAddict and Ti Dome note, something can be done about this. The sound was pretty good, nicely detailed and if you fix the midrange recess, they'd be a solid performer. The bass has some serious power to it. The lows go really low, with good dynamic range across the lower frequencies. No lack of power there, that's for sure. With an amp (or amps) with some huevos, a decent CD player and real wiring, I'd bet that the L7 would solidly kick some behind. They sounded as good with smooth jazz as they did with other material, like Techno or Industrial music. The placement wasn't optimal, but it wasnt' bad either.

I am glad to have both pair. I like them a lot and look forward to hooking them up to a real system soon.

JBLAddict

11-19-2009, 09:47 PM

Regis, always a pleasure to have a new L-series owner join in this discussion.:cheers:

Since the L7 in particular has so much that can be done WRT power, placement, wiring, there's much that can be discussed, compared, and experimented.

Right off the bat, yes, the L5 is pretty amazing all around. There's almost nothing you can say bad about it, just does everything about as perfectly as something of it's size and configuration could do. As I mentioned in other threads, the current LS80 which goes for 5K a pair and I had a chance to hear, is IMO embarrassed by the humble old Circuit City L5.;) Talk about a dead lifeless mid-range, listen to an LS80 :D

The L7, is as BMW has accurately stated however, the true grown up in this family, bringing so much more muscle and a soundstage that is absolutely incredible. The narrow time aligned baffle provides this, while still maintaining the deep bass that comes from the elongated cabinet containing a 300mm woofer. It's not necessary to have them 3ft from the corners, but it allows the unique design to reach it's max potential.

Now onto that mid-range characteristic, no matter what you do, it will not have the same forward character of a studio or near field monitor, it's simply not designed that way. The recessed mid was something I noticed IMMEDIATELY when I auditioned them and "the owner" switched over to his XPL200 and PT800, compounded by my coming off 30yrs of almost nothing but L100A listening. Powering them properly (and adjusting my ears to accuracy) has helped. Also the designer Chris Hagen clarified that the speaker is near 4ohm impedence from 150-300Hz and 3-5kHz, so if underpowered these freq. ranges are starved. As I progressed from 75WPC, to 240WPC to 2x240WPC, the mid just got better and better--properly setup, it's accurate and uncolored, and a good blend with the rest of the system. On well recorded vocal material, they can blow you away.

Now ALL that being said, I still think the mid is the weakest part of this speaker and there are times that I simply miss the really forward, revealing mid of my L100. On certain material the voices were right there with me. Unfortunately, on too much material, that forward character is the speaker's worst enemy. While the L7 overall is amazing, they never achieve that "breathy" or "scratchy" vocal trait (which I personally like), rather aspire more toward "smooth", and if that's the design intent the really excel.

The last comment I'll make, is even though I have mine 3ft from the corners, I think my 13X16' living room is too small for them. The back of the room opens up to the kitchen and when I stand back there they are much more open and articulate, the L5 doesn't quite have this problem but at the same time doesn't have the LF impact or magical soundstage of the L7. However.....I ordered about $400 worth of absorption panels on Monday from the source TiD recommended, so we'll see what improvement that makes.:dont-know After buying a new AVR, two amps, and room treatments, I think my L7 upgrade road will come to a close, and the next step, if any, will be new speakers

Once you have a chance to hook them up to a bit more power (and do not keep the binding straps on, use home made jumper wires or two sets of wires if you have to), pls post your impressions, especially on that mid-range area.

Regis

11-30-2009, 02:06 PM

I picked up the first QSC 1400 amplifier on Friday and had a chance to hook them up. The L7's didn't come with the brass or metal bar on the rear connects, so I've had wire there all along.

Listening impressions with single QSC 1400 amp; noticeable difference on the midrange, specifically more of it, but still not as forward as a 4315 (which was well known for just that characteristic). These are a very powerful pair of loudspeakers that if set up right, can go sub-30hz with out too much trouble. These things absolutely pound. You will submit before they do and they aren't running hard yet.

I continue to listen to the L5's and the girlfriend and I spent at least two to four hours listening last weekend. Superb detailing. Especially good on piano notes on well-mastered smooth jazz. Wind instruments are very well done on these. They do need a subwoofer reinforcement, but with that said, they play well with others and it's pretty seamless. Even with the sub off to the side, you get the impression that the deep part of the bass is coming off the L5's. You're actually fooled into it somehow, the combo sounds that good, but shut the sub off and it's immediately apparent.

Looking for QSC 1400 number two in my local now...

JBLAddict

12-12-2009, 03:00 PM

http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/speaker.html#INTRO

this link in the recirculated 250Ti official thread, I found extremely relevant, as it states the side firing woofers should point outward, otherwise "deteriorate sound of mid-range units and tweeters".....and there's no denying the L7 has a clear but recessed midrange "dB-wise" compared to the other bands....

of course the L7 with the mirror imaged mid/tweeters, which must face inward to image properly, also forces the woofers to face inward by design, and as dictated by the owner's manual.

So, do side firing woofer speaker designs typically face outward, as this article clearly implies? and why would JBL go against this standard, and might it explain the mid-range recess? confused:dont-know

BMWCCA

12-12-2009, 06:55 PM

http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/speaker.html#INTRO

this link...states the side firing woofers should point outward, otherwise "deteriorate sound of mid-range units and tweeters".....and there's no denying the L7 has a clear but recessed midrange "dB-wise" compared to the other bands....

of course the L7 with the mirror imaged mid/tweeters, which must face inward to image properly, also forces the woofers to face inward by design, and as dictated by the owner's manual.

So, do side firing woofer speaker designs typically face outward, as this article clearly implies? and why would JBL go against this standard, and might it explain the mid-range recess? confusedYour link is a generic one that doesn't take into account crossover point, or anything specific. We have the designer of the L7 on our side here. ;) And, to be quite honest, I've not noticed any "recessed mid-range". I suppose it's all in what you're used to but the L7 seems pretty well-balanced to me. Or maybe I've just never under-powered them.

If the designers had thought it necessary to enable ambidextrous use of the L7s, I'm sure they could easily have foregone the one-inch offset in the mids and tweeters to achieve that goal. :dont-know The lack of offset doesn't seem to impair the L5.

JBL 4645

01-10-2010, 06:07 AM

Oh my god! :jawdrop:

Someone needs to call his landlady for a clear out! :D LOL Wow that is fine nice wonderful collection you have Dome :applaud:and I see your into Baileys cream, have you tried it with ice-cream, yummy you don’t know what your missing?;)

JBL 4645

01-10-2010, 06:49 AM

For this multichannel experience I loaded the Haflers, the trusty FAPT1, and the XP50 DVD-A player. The Niles IPC6 controls all the power up and shut down duties. The FAPT1 plus the Soundcraftsmen AE2000 gives a ton of control.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=19753&stc=1&d=1161458033

Dome
So how many dts CD do you have? I only have one dts CD Titanic and two dts demo CD music and demonstration set-up disc and the dts demo 1999.

Titanium Dome

01-10-2010, 07:55 AM

Titanium Dome

01-10-2010, 08:12 AM

As for DTS discs, I'll make (or add to) a thread elsewhere.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12235

BMWCCA

01-10-2010, 08:51 AM

Some Bailey's on the rocks with a nice, warm chocolate chip cookie or with a small cup of warm, mixed nuts will make the L Series sound even more delicious.
(more thread-cr*p): Might I suggest the currently available Dr Pepper "Heritage" formula as a subtle accompaniment to enhance your listening pleasure? That's if you don't have access to the Dublin Dr Pepper "original" recipe. "Heritage" Dr Pepper as well as Pepsi and Mnt. Dew "Throwback" made with Imperial can sugar have been re-introduced to the market this month. You could check your local Target or Dollar General stores as distribution seems to be national rather than regionally based.

:cheers:

JBL 4645

01-10-2010, 10:23 AM

Some Bailey's on the rocks with a nice, warm chocolate chip cookie or with a small cup of warm, mixed nuts will make the L Series sound even more delicious. I've had Bailey's on or in almost anything you can think of, including of course hot bread pudding, but I've never tried it on an 035TiA or LE120H-1.

As for DTS discs, I'll make (or add to) a thread elsewhere. As to the L Series and DTS, I found I needed to moderate the bass a bit with the L7 when playing these discs, as they could get boomy. This was not needed with the L5 or L3.

LOL now you’re making me feel hungry or erg to buy some a bottle isn’t cheep but cookie biscuits are cheap.

Thou the cheapest is whipping cream with hint of Baileys in it. I had was drinking cream with sherry Christmas just gone.:bouncy:

Yes I noticed the theard about an hour ago, cheers.

gferrell

01-12-2010, 03:52 PM

:applaud:New here, my first post. I have been reading this whole L series thread for the past 3 weeks when I saw a pair of L7's for sale and thanks to you guys and the guys at the AVS forum I am now the owner of not only L7's but a pair of L5's for surrounds. I previously had E90's with polk T90E for surround. They are for sale now. I even had to turn off my EC25 center because it just didn't sound right with the L series. Now I am trying to figure out a center.

It did take a week to get the L's positioned and adjusted with my Onkyo 806. The wife really gave me a hard time until I finally got it right. Now they are awesome (wife agrees). The one thing that really surprised me though was how much better they sound at lower volumes. I thought it would take more volume to make them sound that good. Maybe someone can explain the physics of that to me.

Anyhow, thanks for getting me into this and I hope through this forum I can even make them sound better.

BMWCCA

01-12-2010, 06:36 PM

:applaud:New here, my first post. I have been reading this whole L series thread for the past 3 weeks when I saw a pair of L7's for sale and thanks to you guys and the guys at the AVS forum I am now the owner of not only L7's but a pair of L5's for surrounds.Hooray for East Coast L7 karma. :thmbsup: Welcome.

Chalk up another one in the "win" column for T-dome!

Titanium Dome

01-12-2010, 07:46 PM

Woo-hoo! :homer:

Few things in life make me happier than seeing the much undervalued L Series get a new owner and fan. :yes:

I still listen to mine on a weekly basis, and I'm still impressed with what they can do, even at 20+ years old. Not only have I sold a pair of L7s to a forum member, but I've also sent a pair to my son, who's a fan as well. Spread it around, I say. :banana:

TiDome (aka Filecat13 at AVS and elsewhere)

Slare

01-12-2010, 09:49 PM

I sold off the Klipsch gear that came kitted with the PS stuff I recently bought tonight. Fella looked at the L7's and said "whoa, what are those?".

I gave him a little full throttle demo. Couldn't believe all that sound was coming from the L7's. Accused me of having my subs on. THEN I turned my subs on to prove it. After much debate I pointed out that nasty little side mounted woofer which he hadn't noticed. "aaahh I see"... followed by "How much are those?".

Needless to say I still have the L7's. But somehow I think I planted a seed, too.

Funny, he also complained the tiny little Klipsch C-2 center was bigger than he though he could "get away with". Then I showed him the PC600.

Reaction to that was :eek:

Muahahahaha.

Tomorrow I am showing my M1D/M2A's which are now temporarily bi-amping the L7's. Looking forward to a similar dialogue, though I believe that gentlemen has a rather nice pair of Paradigms.

I am not exiting audio but have come to realize that maybe, just maybe, eight complete 5.1 and 2 channel setups worth of equipment (and a pair of Eon's for the road, lol) might be enough for my small ranch residence. It's getting too hard to explain while still appearing semi-normal.

gferrell

01-13-2010, 12:29 PM

I noticed a thread on feet for the L series. Here is an economical option from Polk. I put these on my E90s and considering them for the L's. Seen here http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/tsi/index.php?s=tsi300#tsi500 on these polk speakers for only $5.00 a set plus shipping. The part # is RF5206-1 and you can call 1-800-377-7655 to order them.

gferrell

01-18-2010, 05:12 PM

Picked up a pair of L3's today. Now any suggestions on how too make a center out of them, (custom cabinet, just a single, add a 3 way crossover and a mid)? This is my new project in the making.

JBLAddict

01-18-2010, 07:42 PM

Picked up a pair of L3's today. Now any suggestions on how too make a center out of them, (custom cabinet, just a single, add a 3 way crossover and a mid)? This is my new project in the making.

wow, you move fast!!! I think it took you a week to go from zero L series speakers to L7, L5, and L3. How in the world did you buy these all in separate transactions so quickly??

gferrell

01-19-2010, 11:36 AM

They all just happened to come up for sale recently on CL. I guess if I could find some L1's now I would have them all. Could use them for rears. Any ideas on the center channel?

opimax

01-19-2010, 03:01 PM

there is a matching center cl505 something like that. it matches in appearence but does not use the same drivers. It is in use in my brother's 5.1 w/l7 and l5 system and sounds fine to me for movies. I have never heard an l1

the center runs around 75 or less :)

I think this is here in the thread...at least on site , the famous "search function" is your friend

gferrell

01-19-2010, 03:30 PM

I was thinking I might cut the bases off the L3's and join them together to make a conventional looking center. Maybe even adding a mid and changing the crossover. That is pretty ambitious though.

Titanium Dome

01-19-2010, 04:47 PM

I was thinking I might cut the bases off the L3's and join them together to make a conventional looking center. Maybe even adding a mid and changing the crossover. That is pretty ambitious though.

That is ambitious, and it ruins two good speakers.

I think this would be a better approach.

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/S3HC%20ts.pdf

It has the same 706G driver used in the L Series, same cabinet finish (real Black Ash), and same grille cloth. It was manufactured at the same time. It would be easier to put an 035TiA in it by removing the horn and installing a mounting block than to cut two L3s and try to marry them.

gferrell

01-19-2010, 05:01 PM

Thats a great idea but what are the chances of finding one of those? Thanks TD

Titanium Dome

01-19-2010, 05:13 PM

Thats a great idea but what are the chances of finding one of those? Thanks TD

:D Well, I could tell you I have one in my garage, but that would be self-serving, and it's not for sale (yet). :rotfl:

Okay, sorry 'bout that. I've seen these on ebay a couple of times recently, so I know they're out there. There are two versions: S3VC and S3HC, vertical and horizontal respectively. You could get either one since you'd take the horn out and put the 035Tia in, so you could use it either way.

Titanium Dome

01-19-2010, 05:19 PM

BTW, neither of them got any bids. The owners probably are still hoping to sell them.

However, you're correct that it might be a long time before another comes around. :o:

gferrell

01-19-2010, 05:20 PM

TD's just being selfish! :)

Titanium Dome

01-19-2010, 10:57 PM

TD's just being selfish! :)

Problem is I have all three fronts from a Synthesis® Three system, L, C, and R, and I'm hoping to keep them intact. Plus I've got the S3S subs to go along with them. And the S300 amps. And the S150 amps. And the SDP-3. And...:spin:

I do think it's telling that the Synthesis® Three system used the same cone drivers as the L Series and the same basic cabinet construction and finish. Even the S3S subs have LE120H-1 drivers like the woofer in the L7.

Titanium Dome

01-22-2010, 12:32 PM

Occasionally someone will write that they have a pair of second generation L5s. This is usually based on the fact that the L5 prototype originally was presented as a three-way, dual 706G design, which appeared in early literature and spec sheets. It was never manufactured or sold.

There was also consideration of a dual 708G version. (Could this be "second generation"? ;) )

Ultimately, a corporate exec decided it would be a four-way: 708G, 706G, 704G, and 035TiA. (Could this be "third generation" then?) This is the only model ever produced and sold.

The designer, Chris Hagen, shared most of this with us in post #127 of this very thread. He wanted an L5 three-way with a 10" woofer. (Was this the real "first generation"?)

I'm having a little fun, but there's only been one production version of the L5, hence no first-, second-, third-, or fourth-generation models.
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=177406&postcount=127

gferrell

01-23-2010, 05:57 PM

My L7's are power hungry. I bi-amped them with the bi-amp feature on my ONKYO 806 the other day and they really loved it. Only problem is you can't use the multi-chanel with the bi-amp feature and my SACDs sound too good in multichannel mode for it to be acceptable. So what are my choices. Can I ad an amp just for the fronts and expect to be able to balance the other channels out? What kind of amp should I look for? What are good budget amps new or used?

Thanks

Regis

01-27-2010, 01:45 PM

QSC makes some great amps for reasonable prices. You can get a decent one for under $300.

Regis

01-27-2010, 01:45 PM

QSC makes some great amps that can be had on CL for under $300. I have one and it does have a fan, but you usually can't hear it once the music is playing.

Perry

01-27-2010, 03:55 PM

A request for a little hand holding here...

I have a set of L1's, actually I have two sets: the original set I bought in the 90's as a teenager and the set I bought in grad school off of eBay to replace one of the originals when one it suffered an 8' drop from a poorly designed speaker bracket (I was using them as surrounds).

I kept the damaged speaker, and still have it now - years later. The enclosure held up pretty well with only a slight separation of the side panels at one corner. The tweeter seems fine, but as you can imagine the momentum of the magnet tore the driver upon impact. Does anyone know off of the top of their head what the part number is for the 6.5" L1 driver?

Any hints as to where to get one? If it costs too much I guess I would be better off keeping it for parts to service the others, but since I found this forum I thought I would ask to see if I could save it.

And a story to make you all sick...
I have a set of L5's as well (still have the feet and the boxes - even the cardboard/styrofoam inserts that hold them in place). I bought these from J&R audio on closeout in the late 90's. I liked them so much that I ordered some closeout L7's immediately afterwards. Those were shipped via freight. When they arrived, I watched the goon that drove the truck slide the boxes out across the edge of the truck bed (instead of using his liftgate). That raked the badges off of the speakers and gouged the front finish. I got to listen to them while I decided what to do. I definitely liked them, but had to send them back due to the damage. I got a refund, but there were no more speakers to be had.

BMWCCA

01-27-2010, 05:44 PM

L1 used the 706G-1, same as the smaller woofer in your L5s. I doubt JBL still stocks it but it's worth a try. Just remember you can normally find a nice pair of L1s for around $100 these days. A fine small speaker for that price, too! Even if you had to pay a bit more you could still part out the tweeters and have two nearly free woofers.

The L1 link to the JBL tech sheet hasn't worked for some time, but it seems to be back up now: http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L1%20ts.pdf

gferrell

01-27-2010, 06:59 PM

There is a pair of L1's on eBay right now for a couple of hundred. A little high.

Perry

01-27-2010, 07:20 PM

Thanks for the help.

BMWCCA

01-27-2010, 07:56 PM

There is a pair of L1's on eBay right now for a couple of hundred. A little high.

Also another pair of L1s on the Bay now currently at $105/pair: http://ebayitem.com/180461409173

rdgrimes

01-27-2010, 09:28 PM

706Gs also turn up on the bay regularly.

This one failed to sell at $30:
http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-706G-1-L1-L5-single-excellent-w-gasket_W0QQitemZ110478190391QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVin tage_Electronics_R2?hash=item19b9036737

gferrell

01-28-2010, 05:32 PM

I have solved my center channel dilemma. I will soon have a true L series center to go with my L7's and L5's. It's the L4C 3 way center channel speaker. I hope to hook it up this weekend.

JBLAddict

01-28-2010, 07:20 PM

I have solved my center channel dilemma. I will soon have a true L series center to go with my L7's and L5's. It's the L4C 3 way center channel speaker. I hope to hook it up this weekend.

what's an L4C?

hjames

01-28-2010, 08:02 PM

I have solved my center channel dilemma. I will soon have a true L series center to go with my L7's and L5's. It's the L4C 3 way center channel speaker. I hope to hook it up this weekend.
Hmmm - I have the LC2 - its a 4-way and looks similar to the L series of that era

http://www.amazon.com/JBL-LC2-Wall-Mountable-Channel-Loudspeaker/dp/B000ICXVK6

Comes in Black, Cherry, or Beech (I got beech)

Can't find anything on an LC4 or L4C model ...

gferrell

01-29-2010, 02:10 PM

Honestly, it is a custom speaker with 2- 035tia, 2- 708G-1 and 1-704G mid. I will post a picture soon. It is a beast though.

JBLAddict

01-29-2010, 03:12 PM

this I gotta see:coolness:

BMWCCA

01-29-2010, 09:38 PM

Honestly, it is a custom speaker with 2- 035tia...Why two tweeters? :dont-know

Slare

01-29-2010, 10:04 PM

Well, you definitely have everyone's attention. But dual tweeters is not an encouraging sign.

Looking forward to the pics (include the crossover, please) and hearing more about how the speaker came to be.

:useless:

gferrell

01-30-2010, 01:36 PM

Can someone please tell me how to post pictures on here>

Thanks

hjames

01-30-2010, 01:37 PM

Can someone please tell me how to post pictures on here>

Thanks

How to Add Images and Attachements to Posts

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=817

gferrell

01-30-2010, 01:55 PM

Thanks,
Here is my new center speaker solution.

Slare

01-30-2010, 02:16 PM

Well that is certainly interesting. Any shots of the back? It seems like some level of custom crossover work would be needed or the levels would just be a mess.

Oh and btw my L7's are for sale now in the Detroit metro area. Paired with a pair of L1's and a EC35. I put an ad up in the marketplace. Have upgraded to the Performance series... but I am still a supporter here with my remaining 2nd kit of L5 / L1 / EC35.

gferrell

01-30-2010, 02:42 PM

I have several options on a crossover. Right now the left 708G1 and 035tia are using the L3 crossover at 3k and the other side with the mid is crossed at 800 and 4K. I believe I like it like that. Any suggestions are welcome.

Slare

01-30-2010, 04:43 PM

The outboard tweeters bug me on that design. This is what I would do if I had the expertise in cab and crossover design to do so.

Definitely a one of a kind piece you have there but referring to it as a genuine LC4 will cause a bit of a stir.

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/7563/picture2op.png

JBLAddict

01-30-2010, 09:33 PM

the fact that you found, purchased, & installed L7s, L5s, and L3 within a week of asking what to upgrade from had me astounded. Finding this custom center, for better or worse, has me blown away considering how many here are scouring L series offerings year round.....was this another separate CL listing or connected to the seller of one of your other sets?

gferrell

01-31-2010, 05:51 AM

The guy I bought my L5's from had the L3's. The cabinets were in poor shape and I needed a center channel. So after consulting the wife about how to place the L3's (in front of or behind the TV as a center) I decided to cut the bases off join them together and and add a midrange. SO that's how the center channel came to be. I also split the bases and added them to the back, added bracing so my tv could sit on top and isolated the mid-range. After listening to it my wife and I feel it is a big improvement over the EC25. You can really hear the time alignment in the voices watching movies and music. I may pull it out to get a picture of the back today. It actually turned out better than I thought it would. Except for the added bracing and 1 of the crossovers it is 100% L series.

gferrell

02-01-2010, 10:53 AM

For the curious, the back.

gferrell

02-01-2010, 07:22 PM

Feedback would be nice, sure sounds good with the L7's L5's!

hjames

02-01-2010, 07:36 PM

Feedback would be nice, sure sounds good with the L7's L5's!

Kinda hard to give feedback - we haven't heard it - but ... its kind of intriguing.
I wasn't happy with the EC25 either - this has GOT to be an upgrade!

gferrell

02-01-2010, 08:28 PM

Kinda hard to give feedback - we haven't heard it - but ... its kind of intriguing.
I wasn't happy with the EC25 either - this has GOT to be an upgrade!

Thanks, wish you were here I would certainly like some opinions listening. I am running out of watts for sure!

gferrell

02-03-2010, 06:51 PM

Correction, I should have written I was running out of wattage.

gferrell

02-05-2010, 11:53 AM

Pair of L7's on eBay for 150.00 pick up only on Vegas!

BMWCCA

02-05-2010, 12:21 PM

Pair of L7's on eBay for 150.00 pick up only on Vegas!

Link? Item number? Just curious, but I can't find them.

Slare

02-05-2010, 01:03 PM

320484249568

As a BIN, you can also get some cashback through Bing.

Have to imagine these won't last long. They would already be sold if they were close to me - and I'm already trying to sell the pair I have.

gferrell

02-05-2010, 04:33 PM

If you could get them picked up and delivered for 100 it would still be very worthwhile.

gferrell

02-12-2010, 03:55 PM

Slare

02-12-2010, 03:59 PM

Most amps produce more power when bridged.

Save yourself a set of wires and run each amp bridged.

JBLAddict

02-12-2010, 04:01 PM

Questions for you experts here. Would there be any advantage to bi-amp an L7 with 100 watts each from a 2 channel bridgeable amp or just bridge the amp and feed it the 200 or so watts (no-bi-amp)?

Thanks

I went from one 240WPC amp to a 2x240WPC bi-amp and found better clarity in the mid/high....this is how I have them hooked up today

gferrell

02-12-2010, 07:59 PM

Experimenting will give me some time during this global warming episode. You guys have sent me in the right direction. These L' series speakers a real improvement over the E90's. I have the bug now even though I can only afford so much. Thanks for all the advise.

GTekie

02-13-2010, 08:50 AM

My first thought about this subject is, given the size of the video and the distance it can be viewed from x high power fed into those babies, would you need binoculars or ear protection to preserve your hearing ?
I agree that the EC-25 is somewhat small when matched up to larger premium speakers however it does its job in a home theatre setup, 5.1 or 7.1 ( keeping the dialog centered ) quite well.
Most of my collection of surround music is Quad and doesn't use the centre.
Sorry for the littla bit off topic post.

Rock On

rusty jefferson

02-13-2010, 02:50 PM

Most amplifiers will sound superior in stereo, compared to being bridged when used with full range speakers. For driving the woofers of an L7, or a passive sub, bridge.

Depornage

02-13-2010, 05:33 PM

JBLAddict

02-13-2010, 06:04 PM

Hi, guys - I have an opportunity to pickup a pair of L5s for under $400. Based on a lot of reading here (great forum! :)), it seems I should be targeting closer to $200. Would be paired with a Denon 140 wpc a/v receiver. Primarily for listening to music (not home theatre) - wide range of rock and some classical - any thoughts on this pairing? Being a value-oriented kind of guy without too much experience with these products, this seems like a pretty good deal. Any tips for validating these speakers? Would you recommend any other kind of speaker for this receiver and usage profile?
Thank you -

I paid $390 with shipping for my L5s and have absolutely no regrets, even though my excellent condition L7s cost $460 a few months later.

They are both so good, and such bargains, that yes, if you're one of the lucky to land a pair at $200 great, however they are worth every penny of double that amount.

The L5 is so well balanced, the 8" woofer that runs up to 170Hz is extremely clean and deep (I ran some test tones today off my Avia tuning disc setting up a new subwoofer and could not belief the depth coming from that 8"), the dedicated mid-bass really completes the low end, and the 4" mid and Ti tweeter really blend well.

A few times in this thread I've recommended others not to hesitate on L5 for $400, you just don't know how often they'll come up, if you'll win an auction bid, the condition they'll be in etc. If the ones you're looking at are in good condition, don't wait, take the advice of the many very knowledgeable JBL experts on this forum, with decades worth of iconic gear, that rave about this "Circuit City speaker", enjoy and report back your elation...btw they'll take a clean 350Watts without flinching....

BMWCCA

02-13-2010, 06:42 PM

The L5 is worth the money. One fine little speaker. I paid $200 for mine and drove to Boston to get them (thanks Spwal). I saw another pair for $150 a while back on Boston CL including some HK AV receiver and player. I called my brother-in-law there and told him to buy the whole lot and if he didn't like the L5s I'd pay him the whole amount for them and he could keep the electronics. It's been maybe a year and he hasn't mentioned me making good on my offer! Both the L5 and L7 are great buys if you can find them locally. My first L7s were on CL and turned out to be only four houses down the street from me! The next pair were a hundred miles away and not in as nice shape but I still paid the same and made the trip.

I'd take another pair of L5s in heartbeat. Everything T-dome wrote about them is absolutely true. It's only money!

Depornage

02-13-2010, 07:05 PM

Thanks for the quick replies, guys. This line sure has some avid supporters.

So I can understand the possible additional costs, given the age of speakers, what is the likelihood I'll have to invest more in these? I've recently refoamed another pair of speakers, so I understand what that's about. If the ones I purchase check out in pretty good shape, is it likely anything else will go wrong? I understand if a driver goes, it will be a little difficult to replace as the parts are no longer manufactured. Need wait for somebody to sell a piece online...

gferrell

02-13-2010, 07:12 PM

Sounds like me. I wanted high end speakers (not rich person speakers) for a small budget. You won't be disappointed with L5's. Where else can you get a 4 way speaker for that price. I drive L7's and L5's with 130 wpc on my Onkyo (so they claim) and they sound great. For music you can't go wrong. What I found amazing is the size of the magnets especially on the 035tia tweeter, it is huge, the tweeters on my E90's I had before looked and felt like hearing aid batteries compaired to the 035tia. Plus they are built like tanks. IMO

BMWCCA

02-13-2010, 07:44 PM

So I can understand the possible additional costs, given the age of speakers, what is the likelihood I'll have to invest more in these? I've recently refoamed another pair of speakers, so I understand what that's about. If the ones I purchase check out in pretty good shape, is it likely anything else will go wrong? I understand if a driver goes, it will be a little difficult to replace as the parts are no longer manufactured. Need wait for somebody to sell a piece online...There have been some cases of the rubber surrounds deteriorating our coming loose but I have four pair of the L-series plus a pair of L20Ts with rubber surrounds and have never had it happen to mine. I think, like with all JBLs, if you drive them with clean and ample power and don't push them to the point of sounding like crap, they'll be pretty tough to hurt. I push even the L20T and L1s with a Crown PS200 amp and they're thriving...so far. :thmbsup:

gferrell

02-13-2010, 08:18 PM

Built to last a lifetime, I hope!

Titanium Dome

02-13-2010, 08:21 PM

Built to last a lifetime, I hope!

At least my lifetime. :p

gferrell

02-17-2010, 04:05 PM

Finally added about 250 watts each to the L7's.
How sweet it is!

JBLAddict

02-17-2010, 06:55 PM

Finally added about 250 watts each to the L7's.
How sweet it is!

So, IIRC this all started with you looking for recommendations to upgrade from your E90s

Now that you are where you are, where would you put the E90, L5, L7 on a scale of 1-10 to gauge the value of your investment?

gferrell

02-18-2010, 03:15 PM

So, IIRC this all started with you looking for recommendations to upgrade from your E90s

Now that you are where you are, where would you put the E90, L5, L7 on a scale of 1-10 to gauge the value of your investment?

First of all I have to thank TD for all his hard work informing everyone about the L series and virtues associated with them. I first started my sound system about 2 years ago. Now that my kids (4 of them) have grown up and somewhat stopped sucking my wallet dry I decided to build me a music system. Memories from my teenage years when I saved and bought a pair of Rectilinear III's and a Scott amp kept haunting me. I loved the 60's and 70's music. Now its surround sound and compressed music these days. Wish I still had all my vinyl from when I was a young man! So I bought my Onkyo 806 (refurb $450 but I believe it was new). I then pulled out my Bose accoustimass 7's from the storage shed and put it all together. Sounded good (loud) but something was missing that I had heard long ago. That was about the time I discovered craigslist. I spotted a pair of JBL E90's. They looked sweet $300.00 and I remembered the L100's of yesteryear. So I bought them. Quite an improvement. Then a center, EC25, and some polks really cheep. After a while I just felt this was not where I needed to be. One day I was browsing the AVS forum and some of you were talking about the L 7's. Then someone left me this link so I read every page. Low and behold there they were on CL. So I picked up my L7's for $350 form a college kid who's father had given them to him. Some scuffs and bumps but all drivers were perfect. Then I found the L5's a couple of days later for $300. At this point the wife was getting pissed. So I did sell the E90's for the same I paid for them. And I have told the story about the L3's $120 being turned into a center channel.

Things were sounding good but still not right though. My poor Onkyo just could not do them justice. So I amped them up even though the wife was not happy with the move. Today I will also be amping the L5's up to 150 watts each.

Now the wife is happy after I played her music (fleetwood mac).

So I guess I will live happily ever after with all this used stuff unless the bug hits me again and the recession passes. But I can say my old ears are now hearing what I wanted and thanks to all the help on this forum.
On a value of 1-10 I would have to say for my budget it is a 10. The E90's were a 4. :cheers:

Titanium Dome

02-18-2010, 03:25 PM

Great story, thanks for sharing it. :)

gferrell

02-18-2010, 06:14 PM

Side note : When I first brought the L7's home and replaced the E90's the wife thought they sounded like crap. I have to admit, not good, but I kept the faith and worked with them unitil I got everything right. Now with power the sound stage is awsome and the headroom is wonderful, but most of all the wife is happy now. The music is very realistic. You have to imagine hitting a real drum in your room and comparing the sound to your system. Now I hear everything.

JBLAddict

02-18-2010, 10:40 PM

always great to hear of someone on a reasonable budget who read the praises and value of the L series, made the move, and is now reaping the rewards:applaud::applaud:

this has been a fun thread that has motivated a great many to make purchases I'm certain they otherwise never would have

jblsound

02-19-2010, 11:29 AM

For an all analogue system, for LPs, SACD, DVD-A, you might give some thought to picking up a Parasound P7 preamp.
I've got one being delivered today and will connect a power amp and a pair of L890s (currently staying at my daughter's house) and play some CDs through it. Should be better than the avr.
Unless I decide to drive 45 miles south a get a pair of the L212s or PT800s out of storage, which are the speakers that the P7 will be connected to in Ecuador.

gferrell

02-19-2010, 07:31 PM

jblsound

02-20-2010, 02:20 PM

It would be nice to own a Parasound P7 preamp, I hear they are sweet. Let us know how it works.

So far I like it. Hooked to a Citation 19 power amp, pair of L890s and a Denon dvd-a/sacd player and an old Yamaha TT.

Just finished listening to Norah Jones SACD, sweet, good depth of the soundstage, considering there's a 65" rptv in between, with the L890s a foot or so forward. Very smooth overall sound.

gferrell

02-21-2010, 08:22 PM

I have a HTPC connected to my system. I found a free signal generator online. You would be surprised if you never heard the frequencies. You can hear where the L7's drivers roll on and off. Very interesting if you have never hear how low frequencies can vibrate your room and high frequencies can pierce your ears. Not much music goes above 15k or below 100hz.

JBLAddict

02-21-2010, 10:06 PM

Depornage

02-22-2010, 04:23 PM

Just picked up L5s - woot, woot! A 5 hr roundtrip, but got em for 275. They sound amazing! Thanks to all in this thread for all the great information and providing me the courage to pursue this great loudspeaker. :D

Hi, guys - I have an opportunity to pickup a pair of L5s for under $400. Based on a lot of reading here (great forum! :)), it seems I should be targeting closer to $200. Would be paired with a Denon 140 wpc a/v receiver. Primarily for listening to music (not home theatre) - wide range of rock and some classical - any thoughts on this pairing? Being a value-oriented kind of guy without too much experience with these products, this seems like a pretty good deal. Any tips for validating these speakers? Would you recommend any other kind of speaker for this receiver and usage profile?
Thank you -

Titanium Dome

02-22-2010, 04:35 PM

Congrats! GLad you like them, especially after that drive. :drive:

tom1040

02-22-2010, 04:38 PM

That's great. I have a pair hooked up to a Sansui G-8000 and love 'em.

gferrell

02-22-2010, 06:03 PM

Fine speakers, you will enjoy them. Very good deal!

ken.pugmire

02-27-2010, 05:42 AM

I was 13 Years old and was really getting into speakers. At the time I had a couple pairs of those cheap desktop 2.1's.

I used to tell my best friend how they were the best speakers in the world LMAO!

He used to laugh and say this word "high-end" so one day I came over to his house and he took me into his dads study and there they were a pair of PERFECTO L5's, with a carver m1.5t and crown PSL-2 Preamp. He threw on Brenda Russell's "Get Here" and I almost fell over. That moment was when I became an "audiophile" that was over 6 yrs ago and ever since I have LIVED on these forums and audition every speaker I could.

Now, I recently spent 3 mos off and on at my local hi-fi shop auditioning a pair of B&W 800D's on Classe, Bryston, and Audio Research. They were nice, flat but
a terrible value. I went over to my buddies house and we threw on a few XRCD's and other CD's like Al Di Miola "Kiss My Axe" and Maxwell "Embrya".

I felt more engaged in the music. The Detail was there, the tightness in the 80-30hz was there and the midrange was more breathy and alive. Also the distortion is very low on the L-series speakers, Its very evident in the bass, some might find the bass soft or tight but the fact is, your not hearing all the distortion, I LOVE these speakers and am glad I did not go into debt for 803D's that I was eying.

Anyway wanted to share my L-Series story and personally thank Titanium Dome for advocating JBL's lesser known triumphs. JBL will always hold a special place in my heart and I will never forget that expereince.

Finally I am palnning to purchase a PRISTINE pair of L7's in the nest 3 mos and am willing to pay extra

By the end of the year would like to have 3 pairs of L5's and 3 pairs of l7's as well as 2 sets of back up drivers

A question for Titanium: IYO, Would an L-5 with a very good Sub or 2, be equal to an L7 in detail and coherence, or is the design better in the L7. SLP is a concern for me as I do like to push on dynamic material and I will be properly amping (3-600wt Class A)

PS. the first thing Im going to do is test the L7 woofer crossed over at 80Hz!!!!!!!!

Titanium Dome

02-27-2010, 09:15 AM

Anyway wanted to share my L-Series story and personally thank Titanium Dome for advocating JBL's lesser known triumphs. JBL will always hold a special place in my heart and I will never forget that expereince.

Finally I am palnning to purchase a PRISTINE pair of L7's in the nest 3 mos and am willing to pay extra

By the end of the year would like to have 3 pairs of L5's and 3 pairs of l7's as well as 2 sets of back up drivers

A question for Titanium: IYO, Would an L-5 with a very good Sub or 2, be equal to an L7 in detail and coherence, or is the design better in the L7. SLP is a concern for me as I do like to push on dynamic material and I will be properly amping (3-600wt Class A)

PS. the first thing Im going to do is test the L7 woofer crossed over at 80Hz!!!!!!!!

Hi Ken, and welcome to the sunlight after years of lurking. :wave:

Great news on the L7s! Woo-hoo! :homer:

We'd need to know a little more about your intended use, but I will share a couple of observations.

As a stereo pair, I would use the L7s alone, with no sub, as the better integrated two-channel system. In the correct room placement, you'll have more than enough LF without getting overblown or bloated bass.

A pair of L5s with a sub is very good, but not as good as properly set up L7s. For a long time I had L5s supplemented with sub in the master bedroom. It worked well, but frankly the L5s sounded better without the sub in all genres of music except dance, trance, hip-hop, and rap. When I listened to music with heavy bottom, the sub did allow for more boom-boom! :dj-party:

OTOH, if you're looking at MCH sound, then pairs of L5s supplemented with subs is a pretty good idea. They're easier to place, take less space, and can be more forgiving in a difficult room.

Using pairs of L7s (as I've done in the past) to create a MCH surround set up takes a lot of space and is nearly impossible to set up properly, especially considering there are multiple 12" woofers plus subs, all combining to create standing waves and nulls all over the room. :shock: Potentially, it's a murky, muddy sonic mess.

ken.pugmire

02-27-2010, 06:29 PM

Well, I'm a Stereo ONLY guy! I do not like surround sound. I do need high SPL(100-110) LOL, Im not into clipping or abused but I listen to really dynamic music, Jazz, Trip Hop, and early japan targets. I do want the L7 for its few onces of quality over the L5, although im ok with L5's as long as I have a pair of L7's 2.

I really really prefer the L7 and LOVE to spend time setting up and tweaking. I will use bass traps and other acoustic measures to tame the 12" as well as a parametric, post DAC. I want to collect as many L7's as possible and NEVER sell them!

I do not prefer subs but they can help, the 50-25 Hz area. without blowing that 708G-1. If I use a sub with the L5's I will gently roll off the L5 @ 60hz or so and run the sub up to 60 and roll off by 80.

What do you think about this set up. Also, Do those Titanium Domes let you know when they have had enough or am I going to have to be conservative. I don't push that hard and I try to limit my long term listening to 85dB with occasional BLASTS peaking over 100.

As if this was not long enough, Ti Dome what do u think about the 052Ti, AS good as the 035ti?? if so they are pretty cheap. I might wanna grab 5 or 6

Thank you SO much gentlemen for answering some questions!

gferrell

02-27-2010, 06:31 PM

By the end of the year would like to have 3 pairs of L5's and 3 pairs of l7's as well as 2 sets of back up drivers

PS. the first thing Im going to do is test the L7 woofer crossed over at 80Hz!!!!!!!!

Where in the world are you going to put 3 pairs of L5's and L7's?

ken.pugmire

02-27-2010, 07:26 PM

Well Yes! LOOK AT THEM, I have to fully explain that im am in love with these speakers in a way that I cannot explain. I want as many as I can afford to save and maintain as a private collection, I am the collector type and want to preserve as many pairs as I can. To me it is the LAST good affordable JBL. The new stuff is actually fantastic but when you A/B them on good DACs, amps and pre's they really kill the other stuff in the resolution area. They are more studio monitor sounding than the new stuff basically. Any way im OBSESSED!

gferrell

02-27-2010, 07:31 PM

ken.pugmire

02-27-2010, 09:26 PM

Im glad to find some fellow JBL L series lovers. They do look beautiful. I wish the new JBL didnt look so cheap these days with those silver woofers and plastic waveguides...:banghead::banghead::banghead:

JBLAddict

02-27-2010, 09:45 PM

as always TD makes some very astute and accurate statements on the best uses and pitfalls of the L-series. Right off, the L7's most striking characteristic over the L5 is how much deeper/wider they go. They add a room filling presence that the L5 simply cannot match--once you get your "first" set of L7s you'll know what I mean.

That said, I do have a HT with the L5s in the rear and L7s up front, and just as TD says, in this scenario you have four 4-way towers, with four speakers generating nothing but <180Hz, taming these has been very difficult in a med. room, even with the multiple sound absorbers I've installed. I added a sub recently, and using AVR bass management to redirect a lot of the LF to that sub has really cleaned things up. Though since you're all about 2Ch stereo, this will not be a concern, in that dept it's near impossible to compete with the L7 at their current pricepoint.

ken.pugmire

02-27-2010, 11:57 PM

I have had experience with setting up side firing woofers and they can be a nightmare, it always kills me when I see people that have the woofers firing OUT. Defiantly not a beginner speaker.

What I cant figure out is why a side firing woofer would be Crossed at over 100Hz, it seems to me that there has to be a some kind of nasty reflections. Im sure there is a reason that the engineers selected 180 but I dont see any other than trying to balance the amount of stress on the 708G-1??? although it should EASILY handle down to 80 or 100 with out any extra audible distortion. Im really set on testing the crossover at 80-100Hz on thee 12" Im gonna need to change the caps anyway..

M so excited as I can feel im getting close to owning these fantastic musical instruments!;);):D:D:D:D:bouncy:

ken.pugmire

02-28-2010, 11:43 PM

All I'm going to say for now is that I found a pair of L7's which I am going to purchase! I'm thrilled beyond pleasure, stoked beyond measure and filled with absolute unrestrained JOY!

Regis

03-01-2010, 12:28 PM

All I'm going to say for now is that I found a pair of L7's which I am going to purchase! I'm thrilled beyond pleasure, stoked beyond measure and filled with absolute unrestrained JOY!

I own a pair of L7's and L5's, which I enjoy tremendously. They are great speakers. Allow me to put this to you. Before I would own three pair of L7's, I think you should consider branching out the collection to include other JBL products from different era's.

If you've never heard the XPL series, then you're missing out on a really excellent speaker. Everybody wants the XPL-200's, but the 160's are an amazing speaker! I heard the pair TD has, and I was very, very impressed with the sparkle, detail and punch that the XPL-160's had. The SVA series is well worth looking at as well and I'm searching for a pair of 2100's.

I have a nice pair of 4310's in the house too and they are fun to fire up. The bass is surprisingly good from the accordion surrounds and they too, have a different, but distinctively 'JBL Sound' to them.

Finally, I have a mint pair of 4315's that are whole 'nuther thing entirely. Huge, beautifully built 95 pound boxes that have little deep bass, but match up very, very well with a pair of 12" Velodyne HGS subs.

They all have their strengths and drawbacks, but they all sound good. I like the variety and the hunt continues for that last pair of speakers, the SVA-2100's and after that, I'm done (really!).

gferrell

03-01-2010, 01:25 PM

Speaking of SVA's check out this guys site!

Titanium Dome

03-01-2010, 01:34 PM

Speaking of SVA's check out this guys site!

Uh...
:confused:
Which guy
:blink:
and what site?

Titanium Dome

03-01-2010, 01:37 PM

I own a pair of L7's and L5's, which I enjoy tremendously. They are great speakers. Allow me to put this to you. Before I would own three pair of L7's, I think you should consider branching out the collection to include other JBL products from different era's.

:applaud: 'Tis true, there's a wonderful variety to be had. :bouncy:

They all have their strengths and drawbacks, but they all sound good. I like the variety and the hunt continues for that last pair of speakers, the SVA-2100's and after that, I'm done (really!).

:rotfl:

:bs: That's the biggest load of BS I've seen in a while. You'll never stop. You can't help yourself. :bs:

Regis

03-01-2010, 03:21 PM

:rotfl:

:bs: That's the biggest load of BS I've seen in a while. You'll never stop. You can't help yourself. :bs:

True that! The only reason I'm stopping at the SVA's, is because I've finally run out of room!

Luckily, you've offered no advice for this affliction, as that would be like one psychiatric patient helping another with their illness (heck, I think I've got a small collection!). Adding it all up, there's only 654 pounds of speakers in the house.:p

gferrell

03-01-2010, 06:26 PM

Uh...
:confused:
Which guy
:blink:
and what site?

Sorry, forgot the link!
http://www.adrian-kingston.com/JBL.htm

Check out his amps for sure!

I never knew
Technics

looked so good!

ken.pugmire

03-01-2010, 07:18 PM

hjames

03-01-2010, 07:32 PM

I've got my L7's, am about to go pick them up THANK GOD for Tom and Doug!

Next, back up L7 pairs and parts and one to lacquer in WHITE!!!

Next 4345's, then XPL200 and Some Good Pre/Pro's & DAC's am a teenager so Im on a limited budget. However am going to be pulling 60hrs/week

Who's Tom? You mean the Wolfman?

Wow - sounds very cool! have fun!
There are times i wish I was on the far coast ... ;)

ken.pugmire

03-01-2010, 07:38 PM

Hjames: Is that a 2397 in that photo?? what do wood horns sound like?

SEAWOLF97

03-01-2010, 07:41 PM

I have never heard of anyone having to refoam the L7 LF's ...they are old enough (19 years ?) to have died some time ago ....were they made of a different materiel OR did a mass L7 refoam wave just go unnoticed ? :blink:

There are times i wish I was on the far coast ... ;)

we call it... The Best Coast....

hjames

03-01-2010, 07:56 PM

Hjames: Is that a 2397 in that photo?? what do wood horns sound like?

Its a Walnut Smith horn John made for me last fall - I've got it tied in as midrange horn for my 3 way version of an L-200, (consider it a 4333 in an L200 cabinet). 2234 woofer for bass, and a 2405 slot tweeter for the highs. The sound is very nice, with a warm character on the voice.
I'm feeding it with a 2420 driver, but I'd love to upgrade to 2 inch drivers later this year.

Don Mascali in the forum has a pair of original JBL 2397 smith horns for sale - search the forum for 2397 to see them and send him a PM.

ken.pugmire

03-01-2010, 08:25 PM

Those Look really nice. I really want another pair of horns I miss my mach ones!

Regis

03-02-2010, 08:48 AM

Ive got my L7's, am about to go pick them up THANK GOD for Tom and Doug!

Next, back up L7 pairs and parts and one to lacquer in WHITE!!!

Next 4345's, then XPL200 and Some Good Pre/Pro's & DAC's am a teenager so Im on a limited budget. However am going to be pulling 60hrs/week

Regis: I agree I do need to branch out and I really want to hear some of the older stuff! Im going to be driving up to a buddies pretty soon and Im going to hear the L26, L250Ti YAY and any other surprises he has for me!

Ken, glad to hear you're thinking about it! You will lust after the 250Ti's after listening to them. The 250's have a nicely balanced, detailed and very dynamic sound to them. IMHO, they are the speaker to own if you could only have ONE pair of JBL's. Done in laquer black, they are beautiful as well.

gferrell

03-02-2010, 08:06 PM

The wife is about to give me permission to max the power up my L 7's. Any suggestions for a $500 or less amp. Even high end broken ones should work since I have the ability to refurb them. If anyone notices anything out there let me know. She loves the 200+ wpc I put on them and now agrees I should max them out. Not because of the volume, just the quality they are capable of. This is getting fun!

BMWCCA

03-02-2010, 08:08 PM

Any suggestions for a $500 or less amp.
A pair of Crown PS-400s should do it. Keep the change.

ken.pugmire

03-02-2010, 08:48 PM

First I agree PS-400 is MEAN and CLEAN! Real nice piece of kit and if you get a matching $400 Crown PSL-2 you will have a ULTRA HIGH END Preamp for almost free IMHO!

Now everyone has been saying 250Ti 250Ti 250Ti, I always just passed them up in my mind. I have been looking at the black lacquer and all the sudden I got this bug, like I HAVE To have a pair I CANT explain why?? Except they are GORGEOUS...It was a slow seduction.

In fact Im going to go pick up my L7's from Seawolf97 on Saturday and then its time to find me a pair of 250Ti LE's IF I like the sound ;). Considering Tom is running a BGW 750D, I cant imagine them not sounding absolutely laid back and clean( perfect for late night Jazz. The impression I get is it is JBL's closest to Reference Class, non-hyped audiophile type speaker. Im sure looking forward to hearing Patricia Barber on it!

Ill keep you posted on this acquisition and Ill be posting pictures!

gferrell

03-03-2010, 01:11 PM

hjames

03-03-2010, 02:36 PM

As a teenager I always wanted a Crown. The only place I heard them was at live concerts. A couple of them bridged would seem to work. I wonder if parts (components) are still around. I would want to have schematics and service manual too.
They're around - I know BMWCCA runs Crowns, & Scotty likes them, too - they are around if you are patient and look ...

gferrell

03-04-2010, 02:48 PM

Anyone ever tried this and what would the results be: Instead of bridging an amp just bi-amp the L7 off of each channel of the amp.

hjames

03-04-2010, 03:00 PM

Anyone ever tried this and what would the results be: Instead of bridging an amp just bi-amp the L7 off of each channel of the amp.
Thats what Rolf recommended, way back when, with a biamp system -
use one amp for the left speaker, one amp for the right speaker ...

I've been tempted ever since I wound up with two mostly matching amps just after Christmas ... but I haven't had time to try it ...

gferrell

03-05-2010, 07:09 PM

Bi-amp or bridge? Anyone else want to chime in? Opinions appreciated. I'm sure this has been discussed many times before.

BMWCCA

03-05-2010, 07:49 PM

Bi-amp or bridge? Anyone else want to chime in? Opinions appreciated. I'm sure this has been discussed many times before.

Why not bi-amped with bridged amps?

Or are you really asking if the L7s work best dual-amp bi-wired versus run with the shunts in place? :dont-know

gferrell

03-05-2010, 08:03 PM

Yeah I agree, I don't think I would pull the jumper off unless I had an external crossover, that is a thought, but I wouldn't know how to pick one without some help.

BMWCCA

03-06-2010, 01:46 AM

Yeah I agree, I don't think I would pull the jumper off unless I had an external crossover, that is a thought, but I wouldn't know how to pick one without some help.

Don't confuse the shunts on the external inputs with the blue jumper wire on the internal crossover circuits. The former are removed for two-amp "bi-wiring" and the latter switched when bi-amping using an external electronic crossover.

Have you read the L7 instruction manual supplement?

rusty jefferson

03-06-2010, 01:19 PM

Bi-amp or bridge? Anyone else want to chime in? Opinions appreciated. I'm sure this has been discussed many times before.

I refer back to my last post [#380] that most amps sound better in stereo than bridged with full range speakers. If you only have two amps, keeping them in stereo should sound better. When you can afford it, buy a quality amp for the top end with the characteristics you like [used in stereo], and then bridge your current amps for the 12" drivers.

In any arrangement with more than one amp [ or two if your pre-amp has two outputs ] be sure your pre-amp can handle the extra load from the added inter connects.

gferrell

03-06-2010, 02:43 PM

So what is the theory of amps being better in stereo than bridged? What kind of characteristics would you look at in your pre to confirm it would not be overloaded?

Thanks

hjames

03-06-2010, 03:07 PM

So what is the theory of amps being better in stereo than bridged? What kind of characteristics would you look at in your pre to confirm it would not be overloaded?

Thanks
You just have to look at the specs of the amps - most of the ones I've seen have a higher noise figure in bridged (Mono) mode than they do in stereo mode.
Its usually published right there on the data sheet, from the manufacturer.
Think about it - you are adding gain stages together, when you add up the gain,
why wouldn't you expect the noise to add up too?

TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch ...

rusty jefferson

03-06-2010, 06:27 PM

You just have to look at the specs of the amps - most of the ones I've seen have a higher noise figure in bridged (Mono) mode than they do in stereo mode.
Its usually published right there on the data sheet, from the manufacturer.
Think about it - you are adding gain stages together, when you add up the gain,
why wouldn't you expect the noise to add up too?

TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch ...

I hear that! [ and an increased noise floor ]

Here's a link to a reasonable explanation. I don't know this companies equipment, but this is a good read and may make this more clear for you. http://www.decware.com/paper55.htm

If your preamp can handle the load of 2 amps, the bi-wire [ one amp per channel, left for mid/high-right for bass ] should give you the best sound.

JBLAddict

03-06-2010, 11:56 PM

Bi-amp or bridge? Anyone else want to chime in? Opinions appreciated. I'm sure this has been discussed many times before.

I have my L7's bi-amped, per TiD's recommendation, one Soundcraftsmen S800 (240WPC) to each speaker. L/R channels of the pre-amp Y-corded out to the amps. The two 1993 amps cost me $285.....

gferrell

03-07-2010, 09:10 AM

Lots of good information here, thanks. I'll just keep looking and spending my children's inheritance until I get it right!:hmm:

ken.pugmire

03-07-2010, 05:04 PM

My L7's are slammin' "another brick in the wall" RIGHT NOW! :)

Pics to come....

gferrell

03-07-2010, 07:30 PM

Glad you are enjoying them, what are you driving them with?

ken.pugmire

03-07-2010, 10:32 PM

A Sony 230/CH Power Amp. I tried a 350 Watt Carver that SUCKED. The Sony sounds fantastic VERY VERY SURPRISED!!!. really flat and clean Huge fast Punch( I hate boom or heavy bass). low noise floor....APT Holman Pre, NAD CD Player. Sounds Incredible, I have them set up properly for the room, they need a Huge room to tame the aggression in the 3-7kHz. I will be dropping that range about 3-5dB. also give them space from the walls.

Had a Blast with Tom last night. His place is a blast from the 70's past. He must hold the record for most equipment owned...And those Ohm Walsh's WOW NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Am on the look out for a pair. The 250Ti's RULE in Teac and going to get some this year. Maybe by July???;)

L7's will easily handle 4-500 Watt/Ch IF its CLEAN. No clipping allowed.

PS don't focus on maxing those L7's out, focus on a clean amp from 165-250.(remember they are 6oHm so you get more than the 8oHm rating usually) Bridging is not ideal or the best route IMO, just DONT DO IT...it will increase SLEW RATE, NOISE FLOOR, AND Distortion, BADDDD. More power will only sound good IF the amp is up to par and your room can handle it. Another thing to consider do you have 20 Amp Lines?

Im going to Bi-Am Mine with a pair of BGW 750D's.

Thanks Tom, YOU ARE THE MAN!

SEAWOLF97

03-08-2010, 09:22 AM

Had a Blast with Tom last night. His place is a blast from the 70's past. He must hold the record for most equipment owned...And those Ohm Walsh's WOW NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Am on the look out for a pair. The 250Ti's RULE in Teac and going to get some this year. ;)

Is was really nice meeting you & your Dad, Ken ...you guys are welcome back anytime...:D

ken.pugmire

03-08-2010, 01:37 PM

Thanks Tom, I felt very welcomed at your home..err Museum.

http://emotiva.com/xpa2.shtm

Friends, this is the amp im thinking of for my L7's. Can I get some opinions?

I don't like too warm, I tend to like colder, more flat. I like a lot of top and tight Bottom as well as thick mid range. Fast Dynamics with slam is what I'm looking for in an amp.

Regis

03-08-2010, 02:42 PM

Not a bad looking amp at all. Has a toroidial transformer, which is a hallmark of a modern amp. Metal film resistors and probably tight tolerances on all the inductive and capacitive devices (though it doesn't mention it, you'd hope that they go 1% across the board).

The weight is certainly good, according to the old-school amp thinking (weight = ballz!) and at 75 pounds, it's heft would be a good indicator of the guts. Next, it has XLR inputs, which is great, because RCA jacks are OK, but when you go to XLR, you'll never sweat any noise bleeding into the input through inductance or magnetic fields. Next, the manufacturers claim neutral-transparent sound, which I like, because you do want to hear exactly what comes out of the amp. Finally, I see them for sale on Audiogon, which means that serious hi-fi nuts buy these things.

Just a couple o' considerations though. You may want to research whether you're going to like 'Transistor' or 'MOSFET' outputs. This doesn't state whether or not it is a MOSFET or Transistor (maybe I'm ignorant here and don't understand 'fully discrete output', maybe another more knowledgeable member can explain). Transistors rely on feedback to keep the noise level down, while MOSFETS claim to be free of that particular problem. MOSFET's are warmer sounding too, but my particular example (Perreaux 200p) is very clean and transparent, very accurate and highly detailed. The bass is solid. Speaking of bass, ask about the 'damping factor', as many serious amplifier manufacturers specify this.

Damping factor is the control the amplifier has over the woofers or speakers. The higher the number, the better.

http://www.classic-audio.com/marantz/mdampingfactor.html

The XPA-1 only has one XLR input, while the XPA-2 has 2, meaning the XPA-1 was intended for mono single channel use only, while the XPA-2 is a 2 channel unit (makes sense now...). Seems like a decent amp for the dough and not all that expensive.

JBLAddict

03-08-2010, 11:35 PM

After purchasing my L7s a year ago, then purchasing a new HK AVR, then purchasing a single Soundcraftsmen amp, then another to go bi-amp, I can say with the utmost confidence that the change I made this past week in adding the Oppo BDP-83SE disc player has made by far the most strikingly pleasing change to the system.

For the longest time, I had a hard time believing a disc player could have such a profound effect on sound quality, thinking it was just an afterthought, but I'm fully, fully converted. I spent 2X more on the player than the speakers themselves! more than the AVR, and 4x more than the amps. The decision was one of getting SACD, DVD-A, Bluray capability, and I agonized for many weeks whether to get the stock unit or the upgrade, but I've been going through regular old redbook discs for days, and simply cannot-believe-the-difference, in particular on everything above ~2kHz. It truly has rejuvinated my music collection into something it simply was not on my old player, which was decent unit that I paid 250 for over ten years ago. For anyone with a clean analog pre-amp to accept the upgraded 2CH output (and the funds of course), I cannot recommend this unit highly enough.

Anyway, not to move too far away from the L-Series theme, and not to pimp a non-JBL product, but what this has done to bring out the capabilities of the L7 when fed quality material has made me appreciate this speaker all the more.

JBLAddict

03-08-2010, 11:48 PM

BMWCCA

03-09-2010, 06:40 AM

For the longest time, I had a hard time believing a disc player could have such a profound effect on sound quality, thinking it was just an afterthought, but I'm fully, fully converted.

I'm waiting for someone with more knowledge than me on this topic (wouldn't take much) to opine about whether a good outboard DAC might not offer even more benefit to us 2-channel listeners than the Opo model optimized for audio. In theory, as I understand it, a good outboard DAC would take the digital signal from nearly any CD player and improve the conversion over the in-player converters. Isn't the actual difference between the regular Opo and the SE version just the DA converters?

Yeah, really way off topic for this model-specific thread...

JBLAddict

03-09-2010, 10:08 AM

I'm waiting for someone with more knowledge than me on this topic (wouldn't take much) to opine about whether a good outboard DAC might not offer even more benefit to us 2-channel listeners than the Opo model optimized for audio. In theory, as I understand it, a good outboard DAC would take the digital signal from nearly any CD player and improve the conversion over the in-player converters. Isn't the actual difference between the regular Opo and the SE version just the DA converters?

Yeah, really way off topic for this model-specific thread...

from the base model, the 83SE has highly upgraded 2CH DACs, upgraded 7.1 analog DACs, and an upgraded power supply. again this is not my area of expertise, the player purchase was initially to get high rez disc capability alone, but the reviews and rantings of those (including TiD) who've owned both convinced me to try to get the most I can from my redbook collection, and it's paid off to my satisfaction at least.

regarding the outboard DAC, I'm not knowledgable enough to know how much the digital transfer of data between players matters, but I can tell you that the HDMI connection from the Oppo, decoded by the DACs (Cirrus) in my HK AVR also sound better than they did when hooked up to my old Panasonic disc player (via optical):dont-know.

a big part of what convinced me to upgrade based upon the DACs was a co-worker who told me of an audio demo he went to in NY many years ago (can't remember the company, might have been Linn). in the demo they worked up the speaker hierarchy, then switched to a high end outboard DAC, and his observation was that by far the biggest sonic improvement, much to his surprise, came from the DAC upgrade, not the speaker hierarchy.

gferrell

03-09-2010, 01:41 PM

The BDP-83SE uses the Sabre32 DAC a true 32 bit DAC. It is easy these days to do AD because of high speed sampling, but DA is a little harder to make it sound original. Should sound very close to analog vinyl without the noise floor. The dynamic range should be awesome. I guess I need to start saving my money!:applaud: Not OT, I will be able to try bi-amping my L7's tomorrow. I can't wait to see how it sounds. I find myself listening to 2 channel much more than I used to since I acquired my L7's. I'm sure most of you are not surprised by that.

ken.pugmire

03-11-2010, 03:36 PM

My area of focus is on disk mastering, I have spent a lot of time with different converters. D/A converters are the most dramatic change you can make to a high end system. Its night and day, better dynamics, better detail, less high frequency hash. better EVERYTHING! Congrats on the new CD transport.

I personaly belive that the best D/A converters are Pro stuff, like Crane Song HEDD, Prism DA-2, dCS, Apogee ect.

Thats actually what im really in need of myself is a better dac, when the ways and means committee can allow ;)

PS, IM having some concerns with my L7's is it just me or is the vocal region RECESSED BIG TIME, 500hz-1Kz seems DOWN??? Im gonna run a mic and a sine gen this weekend. Either way its nothing a good parametric cant fix

ken.pugmire

03-11-2010, 03:43 PM

hjames

03-11-2010, 04:00 PM

PS, i dont think its the speakers, L7's were HARD TO FRIKIN PLACE OMG! Every time I got closer, they rewarded me. Cant wait till my move, gonna have more breathing room!

I cant imagine going back to the L5 YUK! ;):applaud:

Room placement is supposed to be an issue with L7s in some spaces ...

Might want to feed them some white and pink noise, and analyze what comes out ...

Regis

03-11-2010, 05:22 PM

PS, IM having some concerns with my L7's is it just me or is the vocal region RECESSED BIG TIME, 500hz-1Kz seems DOWN??? Im gonna run a mic and a sine gen this weekend. Either way its nothing a good parametric cant fix

No, it's not you. Last night, my bud and I got together and ran L5's, L7's, 4315's and 4310's. I've owned numerous other pairs (L-300, etc, etc) and my bud the former musician noted what we've talked about here before, the "Recessed Midrange" problem.

Note, that the L7's had plenty of room to run, vaulted ceilings, not near any walls whatsoever, toed-in and no obstructions in between. The whole upper midbass seems to be 'in the back'. While I have two amps, I haven't bi-amped them yet, but to have to do this to compensate makes it kind of silly. They should be strong all the way across the frequency spectrum or at least as theoretically close as design will allow, but they're not. The L5's as Ti Dome pointed out, sound more balanced and have a very nice output all the way across, with no subdued or lack of response in any particular area.

I had picked up a used QSC amp and a so-so pro equalizer, which I was initially reluctant to use, but one day, listening to the dead space in the frequency response and growing tired of it, I went ahead and started playing with the equalizer, concentrating on the midbass and upwards, adjusting the bands upwards on the scale in a nice curve.

For this, I was rewarded with a good deal more frequency output, where you'd expect it to be. The piano notes came on stronger (instead of being barely discernable compared to the bass) and the sax sure sounded better. You have to be careful and make sure you don't have TOO much of a good thing, but the L7's sure sounded a heck of a lot better!

I've come to the conclusion that the L7's suffer from a design deficiency, just as my 4315's, with the huge 2203 12" woofers, hardly put out any deep bass (but it sure is accurate down to 40 hz!).

JBLAddict

03-11-2010, 06:04 PM

A while back in this thread I jumped to agreement of the recessed mid-range character of the L7 when Regis brought it up. As this was THE "hole" I heard from the time I auditioned them alongside the PT800 and XPL200 for comparison, and since bringing them home. No matter what I played, the mid-range was never able to become forward, or have that airy/breathy/raw/true character I heard often on the LE5-2 from my old faithful L100. For a while I just assumed this was what an accurate, non-near field monitor was supposed to sound like, but my gut told me differently. There's both the dB recess and almost filtered characteristic that removes the scratchy character of actual voices....IMO

So I added power. First going to a 240WPC amp which made an improvement in dB level, then bi-amping them made further improvement, but I still contend this holds true (though TiD and BMW disagree). I also own the L5 and feel while to a lesser degree the recess/veil is still there. Whether it's the 704G driver or the xover design I can't say?

For Regis---your comparison is to two JBL studio monitors, which by design have a forward midrange, so the comparison is between speakers with different functional purposes.

Now that I've owned them for a year, have made numerous upgrades to the electronics (most notably and recently the OPPO 83SE) they still are overall spectacular performers, but I'm still certain that if I could somehow a/b XPL200s next to them the mid-range issue would be crystal clear

JBLAddict

03-11-2010, 06:07 PM

Im gonna run a mic and a sine gen this weekend. Either way its nothing a good parametric cant fix

Pls post this once complete, if you can include the other speakers for comparison that would be great. I'd rather see the data than continue qualitatively stating a perceived characteristic

Regis

03-12-2010, 09:07 AM

Last night, I went ahead and bi-amped the L7's. The bottom was run off the Perreaux and the top was run off've a QSC 1400. The QSC 1400 was run through an equalizer that had a bypass switch for each channel. I adjusted the rear output on the QSC to match the Perreaux's output and then played a variety of CD's, which were mostly smooth jazz and looked for material that had good dynamics, including piano and sax, with some synthesiser action as well.

Bi-amping helped somewhat, as JBLAddict pointed out, but not much. True, the studio monitors have a forward sound, esp. the 4315, but I'm so used to speakers like the L300, L65, and know well the sound of my brothers XPL-200's, as well as the 250Ti and they all exhibit, that "West Coast" sound or that mid-bass bump we've all known and loved.

Listening to the bi-amped L7's and I'm thinking, these things sound totally dead in the midrange, so I walked over and switched the bypass off on the equalizer. What an incredible difference in sound! The L7's came totally alive with really nice detail, strong but not overwhelming midbass and nice highs. No longer was the bass overpowering everything else, but now it was nicely balanced, but still tight and easily extending to almost 'vibrating' the air frequencies. Piano tracks came through beautifully and the sax action sounded pleasing.

I'd back track through some of the more dynamic piano/synth tracks and then hit the bypass. Dead speaker action returned. Back track and use the EQ again and now we have excellent sound. The difference is night and day, it's that obvious. On the EQ, I kept it flat from 20hz through 900 hz and then from 1000 hz I started pushing up the slope gently with the sliders from "Zero" and bringing it up at 5K Hz at 2/3 of max and then sloping back down gently to 10K hz. I'm sure experimentation will produce even better results, but what I got, met expectations for what I expect out of a JBL speaker.

JBLAddict, I'd bet 4313b would agree, that the crossover in the L7's is the culprit. My gut feel for what is going on with the crossover is that most of the power is going to the woofer with little left over for the MF and HF. If you were to put in a crossover that optimized the spread across all the frequencies, I'd bet that you'd fix this problem with the L7's. With the EQ engaged, the individual drivers have no problem putting out the sound output desired, so I don't think 704G is the culprit here.

JBLAddict

03-13-2010, 05:45 PM

JBLAddict, I'd bet 4313b would agree, that the crossover in the L7's is the culprit. My gut feel for what is going on with the crossover is that most of the power is going to the woofer with little left over for the MF and HF. If you were to put in a crossover that optimized the spread across all the frequencies, I'd bet that you'd fix this problem with the L7's. With the EQ engaged, the individual drivers have no problem putting out the sound output desired, so I don't think 704G is the culprit here.

Interesting results. Originally, I suspected that the woofer was taking more than a fair share of the juice, which is why I really pushed for the bi-amp, to give the top three speakers dedicated current.

I'd say I'm less able than yourself or Ken at immediately pinpointing which frequencies are down, as I don't know tones by number when hearing them. Between the three of us we've said mid-bass, vocal/midrange, and 500-1K Hz interchangeably, while your adjustments on the PEQ were actually 1-5K, and mid-bass speaker stops at 900Hz. For this reason, I'm hoping Ken posts his sine gen and mic results to quantify it against your EQ work. I believe the crossover from the mid-bass to midrange speaker is where things dip. Oddly I always harken back to Chris' statement of the "uphill climb" on the L5, in a negative way, in which I thought the L7 was better balanced?

Regis

03-13-2010, 05:56 PM

Interesting results. Originally, I suspected that the woofer was taking more than a fair share of the juice, which is why I really pushed for the bi-amp, to give the top three speakers dedicated current.

I'd say I'm less able than yourself or Ken at immediately pinpointing which frequencies are down, as I don't know tones by number when hearing them. Between the three of us we've said mid-bass, vocal/midrange, and 500-1K Hz interchangeably, while your adjustments on the PEQ were actually 1-5K, and mid-bass speaker stops at 900Hz. For this reason, I'm hoping Ken posts his sine gen and mic results to quantify it against your EQ work. I believe the crossover from the mid-bass to midrange speaker is where things dip. Oddly I always harken back to Chris' statement of the "uphill climb" on the L5, in a negative way, in which I thought the L7 was better balanced?

I agree with you. I'd like to see the results from Ken too. As far as giving the top three speakers more juice, I tried that and it still didn't have the output that the EQ produced, though the bass was somewhat tamed. You mentioned the dip as happening between the midbass and the midrange proper, but I'm inclined to think it's a tug of war between the woofer and the other three drivers! I can only experiment with the EQ using 'gut feeling', thus the 'numbers' and I can't say it's science or properly done, but simply sounds much, much better.

If you get a chance to hook up an EQ to the whole shebang (ahead of the amplifier), I think you'd be surprised at the output of the top three speakers, compared to what they were, bi-amped or not. Finally, the L5 is IMHO, the better balanced of the two, as the output is 'even' across all the frequencies and I don't discern a 'hole' or dip. The L5 does sound like a 'small' speaker working hard to produce what it produces, but it does a really good job at it, while a larger speaker just sounds like it's not working as hard (small block chevy vs. big block? :D).

gferrell

03-13-2010, 08:23 PM

Maybe you guys have a dried out cap or something on your crossovers, they are getting old you know. Have you checked everything?

JBLAddict

03-13-2010, 09:47 PM

Maybe you guys have a dried out cap or something on your crossovers, they are getting old you know. Have you checked everything?

funny you mention that, because in thinking offline about the content of this thread, I considered there is a contingent here who also own many other fine JBL speakers in addition to the L7 and completely disagree with the recessed mid-range assessment. Made me consider why something that seems so obvious to a few of us (especially Ken as a new owner who picked up on it immediately) is not heard by others?

Could be placement, power, ears, caps, not sure. Aside from connecting speakers, I couldn't rework the guts if my life depended on it:D though I doubt that's it, considering I bought mine pristine from TiDome who firmly disagrees with the recessed mid assessment.

I think at this point I need to either drop this issue and enjoy the L7 for all its positives, EQ them, or consider new speakers, and I certainly do not want to go back to the journey of trying to find one good set that does low to high really well at a budget price, don't have the room or spousal approval build a collection beyond what I have now.

JBLAddict

03-13-2010, 09:54 PM

I agree with you. I'd like to see the results from Ken too. As far as giving the top three speakers more juice, I tried that and it still didn't have the output that the EQ produced, though the bass was somewhat tamed.

If you get a chance to hook up an EQ to the whole shebang (ahead of the amplifier), I think you'd be surprised at the output of the top three speakers, compared to what they were, bi-amped or not. Finally, the L5 is IMHO, the better balanced of the two, as the output is 'even' across all the frequencies and I don't discern a 'hole' or dip. The L5 does sound like a 'small' speaker working hard to produce what it produces, but it does a really good job at it, while a larger speaker just sounds like it's not working as hard (small block chevy vs. big block? :D).

The best thing the bi-amp did for sure was balance the output so the bass wasn't totally dominating.

I'll give the EQ a shot, probably the cheapest easiest fix, not to mention ability to run with only one amp. If Ken produced the sweep results, I'd love to use the data to adjust the EQ off more than gut feel.

I did purchase the L5 first, per the first few pages of this thread, being worried about placement and power with the L7. But going from the L100, it does have a small sound that I just wasn't happy with and went with the L7 only three months later. At first play the true room filling presence/soundstage had me where I wanted to be, except that "in the back" sensation on vocals/piano, etc

Regis

03-14-2010, 02:26 PM

The best thing the bi-amp did for sure was balance the output so the bass wasn't totally dominating.

I'll give the EQ a shot, probably the cheapest easiest fix, not to mention ability to run with only one amp. If Ken produced the sweep results, I'd love to use the data to adjust the EQ off more than gut feel.

I did purchase the L5 first, per the first few pages of this thread, being worried about placement and power with the L7. But going from the L100, it does have a small sound that I just wasn't happy with and went with the L7 only three months later. At first play the true room filling presence/soundstage had me where I wanted to be, except that "in the back" sensation on vocals/piano, etc

When you get the EQ, I'd love to hear what you think. If you can find an EQ with a bypass, that will even be better and then you can likely hear, what I heard between "Off" and "On".

JBLAddict

03-14-2010, 03:43 PM

When you get the EQ, I'd love to hear what you think. If you can find an EQ with a bypass, that will even be better and then you can likely hear, what I heard between "Off" and "On".

I wonder if there's a freq response curve for the L7 in some of the literature from the 90's as is pretty common for most speakers?

i only have a cheap radioshack eq from the 80s, but it does have a bypass and I guess will work in getting the point across?

Regis

03-14-2010, 03:59 PM

I wonder if there's a freq response curve for the L7 in some of the literature from the 90's as is pretty common for most speakers?

i only have a cheap radioshack eq from the 80s, but it does have a bypass and I guess will work in getting the point across?

Hook it up! I'd bet that you'd be surprised at what comes out of the L7's. It was night and day, as far as I was concerned.:D

gferrell

03-14-2010, 06:35 PM

Oh great, now I have to find a use equalizer to play with! The wife already thinks I'm losing it!

JBLAddict

03-14-2010, 07:34 PM

Oh great, now I have to find a use equalizer to play with! The wife already thinks I'm losing it!

too late, once you've swallowed the red pill, there is no going back :D

gferrell

03-15-2010, 03:14 PM

There are so many EQ's on Fleabay, what should one look for. I don't want one with worn out sliders!

tom1040

03-15-2010, 03:41 PM

I have had some luck with the Onkyo Integra EQ-35. But, that is just me.

tom1040

03-15-2010, 03:41 PM

...bty, not expensive.

BMWCCA

03-15-2010, 06:16 PM

There are so many EQ's on Fleabay, what should one look for. I don't want one with worn out sliders!
I've been extremely happy with my two Soundcraftsmen Pro-EQ 44. They use a completely different slide pot than earlier SC stuff and they never seem to get sticky. They have a fluid-damped feel to their movement and have stayed that way for a long while. Nice range, and third-octave design gets you a bunch of tweak-ability for not a lot of bucks. The unity-gain controls and level LEDs make sure you're never over-boosting and give you the ability to get the max EQ without raising the noise floor.

gferrell

03-15-2010, 06:53 PM

Both look nice, the Soundcraftsmen Pro-EQ 44 may be a rare find.

BMWCCA

03-15-2010, 06:59 PM

Both look nice, the Soundcraftsmen Pro-EQ 44 may be a rare find.Not around my house!.

I got one off Ebay and the other off Canuck Audio Mart. The only picture in Google images seems to show white slider buttons but both of mine are black. I pair mine with the Pro-Control-Four pre-amps.

Here's one of my EQs:

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/image.php?image=694972&is_user=0

gferrell

03-17-2010, 01:22 PM

Not around my house!.

I got one off Ebay and the other off Canuck Audio Mart. The only picture in Google images seems to show white slider buttons but both of mine are black. I pair mine with the Pro-Control-Four pre-amps.

Here's one of my EQs:

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/image.php?image=694972&is_user=0

I'm sure you would love to donate one to a good cause, I would be happy to drive over and pick one up! ;)

BMWCCA

03-17-2010, 07:51 PM

Naah! But I do have a couple of DC-2215s you could maybe talk me out of. Old-style sliders though.

gferrell

03-23-2010, 07:02 PM

Is the love for these old L series speakers fading? Mine still sound wonderful.

JBLAddict

03-23-2010, 09:21 PM

Is the love for these old L series speakers fading? Mine still sound wonderful.

funny you mention that, because I was going to post today asking what happened with Ken's plans to do freq response curve, and if his obsession/love affair with the L series already ended after three weeks? :D

Regis

03-24-2010, 07:24 AM

funny you mention that, because I was going to post today asking what happened with Ken's plans to do freq response curve, and if his obsession/love affair with the L series already ended after three weeks? :D

Speaking of, have you tried the EQ yet?:D I'd still like to hear your observations as well.

JBLAddict

03-24-2010, 09:02 AM

Speaking of, have you tried the EQ yet?:D I'd still like to hear your observations as well.

I was out of town for a week so didn't get the chance yet.

However, I dusted off the ol' Radioshack EQ;) this morning before work and plugged it all in. Last week when we were discussing this I also downloaded some freq tones and freq sweeps off the net, which I can plug a memory stick into the USB on my new OPPO disc player, and run the .wav files directly

Anyway, tonight I plan to A) run the tones without EQ and measure with SPL meter to see if there are any glaring dips B) adjust EQ per the SPL data and run some EQ on/off testing with music as you did.

I have to admit that I am completely winging the freq response with SPL and test tones, just guessing this is how the poor man's version is done?? This is the reason why I was anxious for Ken to run the testing as I'm sure he knows how to do this properly, and then I could simply use the data to EQ for a flat response. If anyone can advise how to use the SPL/test tones to flatten a response, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks

gferrell

03-24-2010, 06:24 PM

I'm still waiting for BMWCCA to donate one of those Soundcraftsmen Pro-EQ 44 for me to play with. The more I listen the more I like these speakers and I'm sure I don't have them optimized yet . I just keep tweaking but it sure is fun.

ken.pugmire

03-24-2010, 07:34 PM

OK! Im back after some personal stuff kept me busy AAAAH! ;)

I did run some EQ. I have some good news.

As I have alluded to there were some SERIOUS peaks in the response and were honestly bugging the funk out of me. I knew however that PROPER EQing would bring these incredible speakers alive. So I got them hooked to a good DAC and set up with a tight image and ran a LOT of tests including phase and sine, pink noise.

I will soon, post my eq, remember each room is different. I will teach you guys how to do this proper.

First thing Is I tend to like a sterile studio monitor sound(razor flat) and most of the music I listen to is very well recorded (Jazz) as Seawolf can attest.

The L7 has the ability to deliver staggeringly flat and DRY sound. This is why I love it, because of the 4-way design distortion and instrument separation is phenomenal.

As you can probably imagine the real heavy peaks are in the upper midrange and highs, this is partly due to the room size and distance from wall ect. Still from 1.6-9Khz they go OVERBOARD X10 lol. This is EASY to fix and I would do it digitally. NEVER add, only take away from the response in the digital domain because you loose DYNAMIC RANGE. Thats a no no. Especially since this is arguably the most dynamic and transient JBL speaker made. Just look at the design, any sound engineer can see that by the 4-way design and the driver selection.

The issues in the bass of these things is more complex and will take some real patience. Surprisingly:barf::barf: were most speakers PEAK, these slightly dip in the bass in my room. 140-225 Hz needed Boosting and 45-80 needed a nice cut. this is VERY room dependent. These things are flat in my room to 34 Hz with a about 3 dB down@ 30.

ken.pugmire

03-24-2010, 10:48 PM

Doug: I hope I did not take over the thread and I would love to hear you on here once and a while, especially since you started this thread and made so much good info available to us on the L7.

Ken

ken.pugmire

03-24-2010, 11:20 PM

funny you mention that, because in thinking offline about the content of this thread, I considered there is a contingent here who also own many other fine JBL speakers in addition to the L7 and completely disagree with the recessed mid-range assessment. Made me consider why something that seems so obvious to a few of us (especially Ken as a new owner who picked up on it immediately) is not heard by others?

Could be placement, power, ears, caps, not sure. Aside from connecting speakers, I couldn't rework the guts if my life depended on it:D though I doubt that's it, considering I bought mine pristine from TiDome who firmly disagrees with the recessed mid assessment.

I think at this point I need to either drop this issue and enjoy the L7 for all its positives, EQ them, or consider new speakers, and I certainly do not want to go back to the journey of trying to find one good set that does low to high really well at a budget price, don't have the room or spousal approval build a collection beyond what I have now.

First, DO NOT GET RID of these speakers. They are not close to flat out of the box. BUT they have the potential to be a VERY nice flat speaker. Why I love the L7 is that it has a design which covers so much range so cleanly. It is also a really easy speaker to EQ.

I need to make a confession, My initial opinion was the midrange was Recessed. I was wrong the UPPER midrange was HUGELY overblown. I had to go EQ mine and then go listen to the B&W 800D's to check my ears lol. These speakers EQed are HEAVEN. If you like these speakers

From 400-1.6 Khz they are almost Razor flat in my room, above and below are a different story. I have had to really be patient with these speakers. When I hooked them up I almost cried, I was so pissed, I was like O-FUUC. BUT I knew what I had.

I just A/Bed them with a friends B&W 803D. After that I KNEW my ears were right.

Let me repeat: OUT OF THE BOX they are ANYTHING but accurate but they are material for it. the distortion is SO Low it makes me sick. As you already know they have a loud punchy sound(BAD). After I EQed them they became subtle and smooth and WAY quieter.

Im -2dB @627Hz and all the way down -8@ @ 2.5 Khz to 5.8Khz, to give you an idea of how bright they are. It makes the vocals and the midrange sound recessed OR the upper midrange bright whatever way you look at it. 50Hz is cut by 4.6 DB and 70 by 2.8.

This speaker has an ability to cover a HUGE freq range and if EQ PROPERLY has the potential to give LOW distortion and wide response accurate, thus offering high end monitor sound at a low price. Great to me :)

If your room has no dips and only peaks, then you can use a digital EQ in Foobar and that way not have add a analogue EQ which to me degrades to the point thats its better without unless its a mastering parametric of something LOL. If you only take away you can do it in the digital domain and keep the dynamic range with out any analogue color or distortion or signal loss.

Im going to post a graph hopefully tomorrow and will give some links to software. If you PM me I can probably supply you with demo material that blow you freaking minds.

Im going to be going over the basics of EQing soon and will guide you guys and gals ;) to a successful flattening of your L7,s BE READY to discover HOW MUDDY, BOOMY and BRIGHT you speakers were.

PS my speakers are about to go to the shop next door and get some black auto Finnish and then TONS of clear coat hehehe. Pics will come when I get a new Digi camera lol

HUGE: USE THE GRILLS THEY IMAGE BETTER WITH THEM AND THEY were clearly voiced with them on IMHO. USE THE GRILS OK!

ALSO, USE SPIKES, they are 3 buks a piece and the deep base detail improvement is not so subtle, just like the improvement with the stands on is not subtle. That was the first thing both of my buddies noticed.

80sKid

03-25-2010, 05:40 AM

It seems odd that the L series towers would sound "better" with the upper grille in place. Because, as I recall, that grille's frame design is loaded with tons of little vertical bars, which obscure the path of the tweeter and cause a lot of diffractions.

I have a pair of Kef Reference speakers with grilles that featured nearly as many crossbars in front of the tweeters. I cut out the bars directly in front of the tweeters using a dremel tool (because I have a need to keep the grilles in place all the time).

The improvement in imaging was obvious and enjoyable. And I kept thinking "how could a hifi speaker company willingly put such a flawed grille on their product?"

JBLAddict

03-25-2010, 12:38 PM

Well this thread certainly has gotten interesting:) Going from the base performance and bang-for-the-buck of the L Series, into somewhat perhaps re-engineering them into something they weren't designed to be, IMO

I'm interested in the EQ discussion from the perspective of revealing possible non-linear response characteristics to validate what I think I hear, but in the two camps of people who believe the speaker should be designed "properly" vs. those that see it as an unpolished diamond as does Ken, I fall more into the former, i.e. If the integration of the cabinets, drivers, and xover doesn't get the job done properly, I shouldn't have to supplement the crossover with EQ, or add a second amp to make up for design weaknesses....room idiosyncrasies yes, but speaker no. Extending this philosophy, if I could pay $30K for a set of K2's, I would be appalled if they needed an EQ to "fix" them....I expect Greg Timbers would have done that for me in the design. Now I realize these are not K2s, but as a supposedly way undervalued tower, I expect more.

Now, that said.... I did my own EQ last night, and to my ears at least, it's the upper midrange that was recessed to my personal preference. With my limited bandgap sliders incrementing 1kHz, 2.5kHz, 6kHz, 10kHz, I found raising only the 6kHz ~3dB brought out the precise band that was in the background. Oddly, that goes along with Regis' ears, but opposite Ken's actual measurements showing them extremely bright by 8dB in the same range:confused: According to Ken, it's the brightness in that upper-mid that by comparison makes the lower mid-range seem recessed? I guess I did not try that, so I'll give it a shot, though on a very cheap analog EQ, and see.

My question for Ken: since you validated your ears on two sets of high quality B&W, what characteristic to they display that makes this validation in comparison to the L7? I inferred that B&W is extremely flat above 1K?

Overall, I still really enjoy the L7 out of the box, and have no intent to keep any kind of EQ permanently hooked. Between the wide range of redbook CD mixes/quality, SACD, DTS, and movies I use them for, the last thing I want is to play EQ tweakmaster all day per source materials, which is why upgraded from the L100 to L5->L7 in the first place.

To Ken, I think maybe one of the reason's Doug hasn't chimed in is that he quite simply believes the L7 to be an overall amazing speaker once fed clean quality power and positioned properly, per his starting this thread with the sub-title "L7 Heaven", which makes no mention of imbalance or need for EQ. He also owns/has owned about every other JBL ever made and has his comparisons cemented in his mind, in addition to having moved way way way up the JBL/HT/System foodchain in the past couple months....don't mean to speak for another person, just 2 cents

ken.pugmire

03-25-2010, 01:55 PM

I dont feel the grills cause a harmful diffraction distortion(although It might and I have considered it), however they measure much flatter ON, and that is why I think they were voiced ON. They image better with grills becuase they are flatter and the grills tame the nasty peaks. I have EQed them for OFF and they Imagined about the same BUT, I had to take out 11 dB @4.8 khz 9dB at around 7Khz and thats a LOT lol. Must be my room

With the grills on in my room I cannot find the speakers with my ears, except for the occasional cymbal hit that is all in one channel and then its pretty point sourced.

Its not that these speakers are deficient, its that they are produced to put out a pleasing punchy sound, but they are a design which can give you any sound you want, thats what I love. I see them as a canvas.

Ive EQed them soft and warm, hard and punchy and I just personally like a flat sound, especially since when I move in 3 mos they will be in my mastering studio. They can sound flat and sound virtualy the same at 70dB as they do at 105Db, very linear sound.

Its not so much that I am comparing these to the BW as I am using the BW as a reference speaker. The 803 is a little rolled off on the highs and the 802 and 800 are not. After EQ mine from a a few dozen sweeps, I was simply shocked at how my speakers sounded so similar. I used 2 friends as "reality checks" and they agreed. They liked the JBL's better because their music sounded better LOL, but I liked the EQed JBL's because they revealed a lot of stuff I had only heard on the BW. the reason for this in MY ROOM is the boomy sub bass and that overblown upper mids masked the midrange detail.

If in your room you had to boost the upper mids, I would be SHOCKED, BUT I would not say your wrong cuz I cant hear it for myself. The best thing to do is get a MIC and run some sine waves and pink noise.

Every person, that has been in my listening room has immediately asked me to turn down the treble, now that they are EQed in the upper mids, the plastic grungy glare is GONE.

These speakers are so good because they have great divers, a decent cabinet and genius driver array

Bottom line EQed for your specific room they will deliver fantastic detail and listening pleasure.

As for the K2, they need pretty substantial EQ and room correction to sound good. Thats a big part of the synthesis set up. Any speaker is going to have a rough curve unless you live in an anechoic chamber. The BW 803 were all over the map in the sweeps we ran. almost as bad as the L7's only they dipped on the midbass, peaked in the 100-200 and peaked heavily in the 600-1.2, the rolled off to about -4 db at 16 Khz

Slare

03-25-2010, 02:59 PM

I wouldn't get too torn up about EQ, the room / position effects are too large to make any good comparisons. It is certainly a YMMV type thing.

I know in my room Audyssey correction softened the upper midrange and treble slightly with a big drop around the 60Hz band. I was perfectly happy with a slight drop ~2-3db in the upper midrange and that's it.

I also think at least some of the 035's out there have had harder lives than others. My rather unscientific observation after having listened to quite a lot of them is that if the mounting screws are corroded the tweeters are likely to be a little more harsh. I figure the corroded screws seem to align with units that have been in the basement or garage, and think this is arguably related to hardening and the little foam puck behind the dome but I'm sure there are others out there that know better than me.

JBLAddict

03-25-2010, 03:10 PM

JBLAddict

03-25-2010, 03:14 PM

IIRC, it was the out of the box mid-range that really sold you on ditching your L7 for the PT800, right? In the regard, how does that correlate with all the "mid-range issues" being discussed here?

I wouldn't get too torn up about EQ, the room / position effects are too large to make any good comparisons. It is certainly a YMMV type thing.

I know in my room Audyssey correction softened the upper midrange and treble slightly with a big drop around the 60Hz band. I was perfectly happy with a slight drop ~2-3db in the upper midrange and that's it.

I also think at least some of the 035's out there have had harder lives than others. My rather unscientific observation after having listened to quite a lot of them is that if the mounting screws are corroded the tweeters are likely to be a little more harsh. I figure the corroded screws seem to align with units that have been in the basement or garage, and think this is arguably related to hardening and the little foam puck behind the dome but I'm sure there are others out there that know better than me.

ken.pugmire

03-25-2010, 03:55 PM

I really enjoy reading your posts, I'm learning a lot beyond the ear test I've used for too many years. :applaud:

I agree on the Synthesis setup when configured as a MCH, but in pure 2CH, for all the very high end speakers I've auditioned, I never once recall seeing an EQ? maybe this is my ignorance and the EQ was in the pre-amp per sweeps like you've run?

one might conclude from your statements then that all speaker/room combos should be EQ'd from high to low, which somewhat implies as long as distortion is low and drivers are quality and capable, EQ can make almost any two pairs sound like each other, as you said with the L7 and B&W

I'm going to drop my 1-6kHz tonight and see what I get. All in all, there's something very real to ruler flat not being to most peoples liking, perhaps why your buddies like the L7 w/o EQ "because the music sounded better" (think that's what you meant?) and why most old school JBL enthusiasts are there is large part for the "West Coast sound"

Yes that is what I meant. My audiophile friends LOVED the L7 out of the Box, At first so did I. Then I ran the sweeps and the detail emerged and the clutter submerged. I feel that many owners would not enjoy their L7's as flat as mine are right now.

Since I haven't started my new job yet, I have had over a 100 hrs to listen to these things. Its almost ALL I have been doing when home.

ITs amazing hot much of a room your ears hear. 1-3 order reflections Plus room modes, standing waves, room harmonics and ceiling flex all turn out to be overwhelmingly NOT FLAT and even then best speakers can sound AWFUL.

I have a lot of friends who are in the B&W crowd and they are against EQ, however the best mastering engineers and sound engineers talk about EQ constantly. In fact the founder of Ocean way studios sells the custom studio monitors that are used in the studio and they come with an EQ. He talks at length about EQing a system to achieve best performance.

There are lot of misnomers out there about EQing and the positives and negatives.

Bottom line is that if you want perfect flat response, take a room curve and then run the opposite curve and you balance the response.

Once used to flat sound, you never go back. At fist a punchy speaker grabs your attention and is GOBS of fun to listen to. But when listening to music you love and know a clean, flat sound will reveal much more detail and dynamics in critical listening.

Im here to offer one way of doing things, not the only way. Many are happy with their L7's

Just remember Audiophiles HATE EQ's and LOVE expensive cable. Most of them have also never spent a second in a recording studio or heard a studio monitor. They read stereophile and believe every word LOL.

Heres a Link:http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Audio/Audio-Mixers-Synthesizers/SineGen.shtml

Download this sine, pink generator and you will be able even with naked ears to hear the peaks. listen at realistic levels because the ear has a curve of frequency sensitivity. The Fletcher-Munson Curve Illustrate this. This is why pre-amps have a loudness button, as to bring up the lower and upper frequencies and low volumes in order to compensate for less sensitivity at low SPL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher%E2%80%93Munson_curves

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f4/how-equalize-your-headphones-tutorial-413900/

this is an incredible article about Equalizing and it included many valuable links to free software which will help you MEASURE response.

Also If using a mic, know that each mic has its own freq response and will alter the measurements.

JBLAddict

03-25-2010, 05:11 PM

I wouldn't get too torn up about EQ, the room / position effects are too large to make any good comparisons. It is certainly a YMMV type thing.

I know in my room Audyssey correction softened the upper midrange and treble slightly with a big drop around the 60Hz band. I was perfectly happy with a slight drop ~2-3db in the upper midrange and that's it.
.

another factor is the most expensive piece in my setup is the analog-output-upgraded OPPO BDP83SE disc player, and I'm trying to absolutely avoid any type of bass management or other A/D/A conversion, such as Audyssey, or addl analog path through an EQ...want to keep pure native analog output from the player direct to the amp as much as possible....paid too much to "contaminate" it so to speak

JBLAddict

03-25-2010, 05:48 PM

Its almost ALL I have been doing when home.

not sure why but this line really made me laugh out loud, prolly cause I'd do the same if I had the option:D

ITs amazing how much of a room your ears hear. 1-3 order reflections Plus room modes, standing waves, room harmonics and ceiling flex all turn out to be overwhelmingly NOT FLAT and even then best speakers can sound AWFUL.

the part I didn't mention is that before did the EQ last night, I did play a bunch of test tones I downloaded, and walked around the room with my SPL meter. What really blew me away was hearing the nodes and seeing it register on the meter. Standing between the speakers about 10ft away, with a continuous 60Hz tone, then walking toward them and hearing the tone almost completely disappear at 3ft, or standing at 8ft then crouching and watching the level for a 40Hz tone rise from 64 to 78dB, or putting the SPL right up to the mid-bass and woofer as I worked the tones from 30Hz to 260Hz and "watching" the crossover (in the truest sense of the word) between the two drivers...as an engineer I found this extremely entertaining....and extremely enlightening to "see" the sound around the room. Now imagine the entire spectrum moving about simultaneously in music and it becomes clear how scientifically complex the whole thing is from source to room to speaker.

thanks for the links, I'll definitely check them out.

I

..................

JBLAddict

03-25-2010, 05:55 PM

btw, the Fletcher-Munson curve I've never heard of but... very very cool. One of my first shockers last night was how at 30Hz the meter was reading 70dB but damn if I could hear it? jump up to 70Hz and while the meter had the same reading my ears were telling me this is 50x more sound

ken.pugmire

03-26-2010, 01:26 AM

At 30 HZ you will FEEL more than you will hear, remember a 30 Hz wave is 160 Ft/Cycle. WOW lol

If you use the sine gen through your Computer>Dac>Preamp, you can find your rooms resonance frequency. Mines between 34.23 and 35.21. THE ENTIRE HOUSE RATTLES at 40 dB. LOL

Make sure your SPL meter is C-Weighted. For reasons, Google ;)

On a side note. Right now I am looking at every single components of My L7's laying on the floor.

I leave tomorrow to go to the shop next door and build new cabinets and crossovers. I was going to just paint them in 1988 Ford Black, until I took the drivers out and discovered L-Series Designer, Chris Hagen was right the cabinets need more bracing. I want the woofer to have more sq in. and want a sealed cabinet to increase transient response even further. Grandpa Lester and I are looking into building 7075 Aircraft Aluminum cabinets to reduce resonace like these. http://www.ygacoustics.com/main.html. I have KILLER FRIENDS!!!!Who give me lots of Stuff! hehe ;)

My Plan is to face the 12" forward. but keep the upper baffle NARROW, almost flush with the drivers so the baffle ends were the driver frame ends.

If I cant afford to use aluminum then Im going to use 2" HDF and Run an aluminum baffle.

Time to get some sleep so I can hit up Napa Auto for some primer/sealer.

I know I seem overboard on the L7's but the drivers are just SO GOOD and CLEAN and can take gobbs of power. Time to get a second pair...

SEAWOLF97

03-26-2010, 09:54 AM

My Plan is to face the 12" forward. but keep the upper baffle NARROW, almost flush with the drivers so the baffle ends were the driver frame ends. .

kinda like these ???

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=175104&postcount=18

JBLAddict

03-26-2010, 01:37 PM

I know I seem overboard on the L7's but the drivers are just SO GOOD and CLEAN and can take gobbs of power. Time to get a second pair...

Ken, I'm not sure what line of work you're in, but you're taking this to a level even the most expert among this forum have unlikely ventured:p certainly now way beyond anything pragmatic for myself other than general interest. If anything, the fact that you think THAT highly of the driver complement sure says a great deal for the units Chris/JBL used, but at the same time given your apparent resources, and ability to build almost anything you want, one would think you could select from the worldwide cornucopia of drivers to make your frankenstein rather than what in essence was a mid-level Circuit City speaker:dont-know (and I don't mean this in a pejorative way toward the L7, just that there certainly is much better out there)

If you adore the L7 as a blank canvas that much, intimately understand it's response, have the ability to flatten it near perfect to your liking, plan to use them in a mastering studio, not sure where this new path fits? I found your knowledge and plans to use them in a mastering studio as a major testament to the towers that adorn my listening room, but now I'm just confused.