Home theater question...

[Hamilton]

Hi folks, I just found this forum on Google and immediately signed up. I bought my first JBL's in 1970 - four D140F's while playing bass guitar (wish I had them back....http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/frown.gif ) and have owned some kind of JBL ever since.

Anyway, I just got a plasma tv and a Yamaha RX-V2500 receiver and now want to work on the speakers. I presently have two 4430's I bought new in the mid 80's and would like to continue using those. I also just bought an LSR6312SP sub-woofer that I'm very pleased with.

What should I look for in a center speaker, and the surrounds? I was looking at the HT4Hs.....but I'm not sure. (I have no problem building cabs, if nec) I also have two 2404H's on order (not here yet) that we could use.

BTW, I've been a musician for 40+ years and my ears are extremely "hammered", therefore I like a brighter sound to compensate.

Thanks a million,
Hamilton

[Audiobeer]

Hello Hamilton, I'm in the same situation. I will be using 4430 for lt & Rt, 2 4313Bs for the centers and 4313Bs on the other channels. Still haven't decided on the sub. It will be interesting to see what the other 4430 owners are doing......oh yes and former owners. :D

[edgewound]

Hi Hamilton...BTW really cool amp collection you have:applaud: .


Since you seem to be handy with tools...why not clone or otherwise acquire a 4430 for the center channel? The ideal surround setup is identical speakers for all channels, just like in the sound designers studio. Everything would be voiced the same, and you have something closer to what the movie studio intended...unless of course space is a consideration...and it usually is:) .

Good luck and welcome...

Edgewound

[clmrt]

4612 rebuilt as a center - baby butt-cheek would at least look like it matched, cab size would be small enough, and tune it to about 70 hz and run it as small...


That's what I'm going to do when I find one rough, local and cheap!

[Mr. Widget]

...or how about a 2344A with one or perhaps a pair of 10" or 12 woofers oriented laterally.


Oh yeah, welcome aboard!

Widget

[clmrt]

At least you're lucky enough to not have to worry about magnetic interference.

[Zilch]

I'd be looking at making a horizontal MTM mid with 4425 components or equal.

OR, PT waveguide in the Synthesis sK2-1000DG configuration:

http://www.jblsynthesis.com/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=SK2-1000DG&Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA

For HT, look to Synthesis for ideas....

[JBLnsince1959]

I just sold my 4430's to audiobeer last week ( sigh)..however, i used them a lot for HT. If you really want some special and are willing to think outside the box try this. ( your mouth will drop) it goes well with the 4430's
1. don't use just one speaker for center channel , split the signal and use two speakers, one on each side of the screen.

Since 90% of everything really comes thru the center speaker then we up the size of the center channel speakers ( most the time center channel is about the smallest speaker) and since center speakers usually don't go below 80 to 70 then using a speaker like the E-130 is really good. I converted my Dad's old C-35's with new stuff ( E-130, 2425, 2202) and used both for center speakers and the 4430's as the left and right.

just a suggestion. It's so radial that I'm sure no one would do it. But if you ever heard it, you'll wonder how you could live with out it.

[Titanium Dome]

just a suggestion. It's so radial that I'm sure no one would do it.


I've tried it both ways with two centers. One on each side AND one above and one below. As far as imaging and the soundstage, the above and below (A&B) has it all over one on either side (O&O) in my personal experience.

The O&O works great when you're in the sweet spot, but if you move left or right, the soundstage compresses with your movement rather than staying put. That's because you've moving away from half the center's output.

OTOH, the A&B keeps the soundstage pretty much right in the middle of the screen, regardless of where you move on a horizontal plane, and it tends to put the apparent sound source right in the middle of the screen.
Now, if you were moving up and down, like riding an elevator or climbing a ladder in front of your HT, then there's be some issues with the A&B, too. ;)

The biggest problem with A&B is that you need a high wall, so there's space both below and above the screen. Most of us don't have that much room.

My old house had ceilings rising to 17 feet, so this was not a problem. My current digs with 8' ceilings can't handle this. That is, unless I put in a smaller screen, and that's not happening.

Anyway, I'm prety pleased with the output of the PC600 as a solo center, but once I get that fourth PS1400, who knows? Another PC600 might be in the cards. :hmm:

[JBLnsince1959]

The O&O works great when you're in the sweet spot, but if you move left or right, the soundstage compresses with your movement rather than staying put. That's because you've moving away from half the center's output.



you didn't have speakers BIGGGG enough :D, seriously... I'm not talking about regular speakers here. I'm talking about BIG, F**KING monsters designed just for mid-range and above. I'm sure with regular speakers I'd lose the bet, BUT, with what I'm talking about I think I'll win. You're correct with regular speakers.


just a suggestion. It's so radial that I'm sure no one would do it. But if you ever heard it, you'll wonder how you could live with out it.

I was refering to the big speakers and not the O&O, that's done a lot.



Anyway, I'm prety pleased with the output of the PC600 as a solo center, but once I get that fourth PS1400, who knows? Another PC600 might be in the cards. :hmm:

I was wondering how long you could holdout without mentioning the PS speakers :rotfl:

[Titanium Dome]

That's some kind of foul isn't it? Or maybe it's a clever way to make your point? :rotfl:

[JBLnsince1959]

Opps, I had three windows open to the LH, so I could cut and paste the quotes easier, Lost track of "who's on first"

seriously, after I had my HT hooked up I had some friends ( 5 ) over for a listen. I ONLY had the centers operating( they didn't know that), after the first part of the matrix ( where the truck crashes into the phone), I stopped the movie and said what do you think? everyone went crazy, then I said "OK, let's hear it with the left and right and rears now. :D

No one believed me until I hooked them all up. But seriously whatever someone wants.

[Don Mascali]

I use some Home Brewed stuff with the 2344a/2426 and 2235s among a few others per side. I ended up making a horizontal MTM with 2-2123s and a 2342/2416. I have a projector on a 108" screen and it had to fit below it in an 8' ceiling room. It keeps up with my stuff pretty well.

I didn't think it was all that necessary to have a good center channel but it realy made a diference. I had been using a Consumer JBL center and the improvement was striking.

I would suggest getting another 4430 http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif. The closer the sound the better. (I almost said TIMBRE but I don't want to sound like a "Golden Ear" wonk).

I listen to music on a Yamaha RX-V1400 with Dolby ProLogic II. The center channel pulls it all together and it has a fairly even transition when the action pans across the screen during films.

Welcome aboard and good luck with what ever you decide,

Don M

[Michael Smith]

Hi
Here is my two cents worth,If you have a space problem and the ears have had better days try to find(For fear of being a Philistine) a Klipsch model KV4 it consisted of 2 X 8'' woffers and a tractrix horn with a 2''compression driver hanging off the back of it, 99db a1wpm so it has plenty of go ,I have used it with 4430s and it sounds great.With the Yamaha 2500 you can eq the centre to suit yourself.If you think that stinks, Widgets idea is a good one,Depending on the size of the plasma you really only need one centre speaker for 42'' -50'' as it is nicer to have a central focal point for voice.
I have also run 3 X 4430s and that was great ,but with the 4430 as centre sitting on the floor I had troubles getting the highs at ear levels,I looked at the possibility of flying it and that went down like a cast iron kite,If that isn't a problem then fly the three of them That would cool and a pair of subs to suit,now that would be wicked
Regards
Michael

[Mr. Widget]

(I almost said TIMBRE but I don't want to sound like a "Golden Ear" wonk).

Gosh, I do... unfortunately sound like it or not, I still have the training ears I was born with. At least they aren't tin ears.:D


Widget

[Robh3606]

Hello Hamilton

A center for 4430's I would go big if you can another 4430 would be the absolute. I use 2344's in my mains. I tried using a smaller center a Jubal with my mains and it didn't cut it for a couple of reasons. It was too low and it just didn't match well with the horns. I ended up with a Urei 811 clone as a center and it works fine. The tight patern on the Urei keeps things focused and covers my listening area very well. One thing though is if you go horn center keep the horn as close height wise to the L/R as you can so your pans don't wander as they move across.

"...or how about a 2344A with one or perhaps a pair of 10" or 12 woofers oriented laterally."

Hey Widget

I was worried about reflections off the horn when run with the drivers to the side.

Hey Don

You have any problems with reflections off the horn??? Did you close up the sides or run them as is??

Rob:)

[Lancer]

It will be interesting to see what the other 4430 owners are doing......oh yes and former owners. :DI finally abandoned the "three 4430's across the front" idea due to their size. Maybe it's time to go with Tannoy dualies. :p

Here's some new stuff -

http://www.harman-japan.co.jp/products/jbl_cons/s2400-s1400.htm

S143 Mk II
http://www.harman-japan.co.jp/products/jbl_cons/jbls143mkII.htm
http://www.harman-japan.co.jp/image/products/s143mkII/S143MkII.jpg

[JBLnsince1959]

Hello Hamilton

A center for 4430's I would go big if you can another 4430 would be the absolute. I use 2344's in my mains. I tried using a smaller center a Jubal with my mains and it didn't cut it for a couple of reasons. It was too low and it just didn't match well with the horns. I ended up with a Urei 811 clone as a center and it works fine. The tight patern on the Urei keeps things focused and covers my listening area very well. One thing though is if you go horn center keep the horn as close height wise to the L/R as you can so your pans don't wander as they move across.


I agree completely with Rob on two points ( I disagree with the 4430 center tho for reasons listed below). Regular speaker(s) just won't cut it with 4430's being used as left and rights. You NEED a BIG speaker (s). also, his point about center horns also VERY important here, he hit the nail on the head... That's one of the reasons I used TWO speakers, one on each side. If worked out correctly ( takes time) the "pans" are dead on holographic, almost any place in the room. When I just used one ( as I first did), I started to experience problems( one side was stronger). Two big boys worked perfect.

One thing also to note. The center channel carries about 90% of what you hear and of course it doesn't go very low into bass ( that's the job of the left and right, or sub), so when doing "Big Boy" centers go for a 15"er that is really designed for mid-bass or mid-range because that's what is really being put thru the center ( 2220 for more mid-bass sound or E-130 for more "Mid-range", either is very good ) I used E-130's because I had them on hand and I wanted a more mid-range anyway. finally I added some 2123's crossed over at 700 for even better mid-range ( crossover points were 700, 1200, 7000)

To stress Robs point of the horns being level, I'm including a picture of my setup as I was experimenting ( it was far from being finished at the time of the picture). Now I know that it looks Butt-ugly, but I was going to build new cabs for the centers and store the C-35. the C-35's were upside down on top of custom 2235's subs so the horns were "level" with the horns with the 4430's. In this picture the C-35's were really just below and later I raised them up perfectly to match. If you look closely you can see the horn on the left speaker a few inches from the bottom of the C-35 dead center.

Of course these are only suggestions for playing around with different ideas.

[Hamilton]

Thanks for all the help and response.

So it appears that "bigger is better" but...I have space limitations. http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/frown.gif I also tried using two 4206s as the center speaker, first together, then seperated. For me, I prefer the sound with them together, being more *focused*. So...I guess I'll have to build a center speaker. http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

I did some checking with the recommended components listed here but found they all no longer available (stupid me). So I went to the JBL pro website and found this stuff, that is available today :

2012H (use two of these)

http://www.jblpro.com/images/components/2012h.jpg

2370A

http://www.jblpro.com/images/components/2370bi.jpg

2426H/J

http://www.jblpro.com/images/components/2426hj.jpg

I'll have to check with them on which crossover to use.

Wha'cha think? Do I get "new", or do I look for vintage?

Thanks again for the help.

[JBLnsince1959]

Thanks for all the help and response.

So it appears that "bigger is better" but...I have space limitations. .

I'd say it has to be big "enough" to match with the 4430's and the room. That's up to the room and your ears. No right or wrong. If it were me, I'll try to see if some vintage stuff is around to save money( but I'm cheap!!), then there's the hassle of finding ( when) good stuff.

If you have the bucks go for the new ( no surprises and you've got it).

the 2012's are really good, so are the 2020's - which is what I would most likely use use, BUT then I like bigger :D ). Either one is good

[JBLnsince1959]

Thanks for all the help and response.

So it appears that "bigger is better" .

well, what I was doing was testing with my setup.......To quote Zilch recently in his TCB Monster Subwoofer thread (it fits what I was doing)
Surely you KNOW this ain't about "need."
[We're doin' RESEARCH here.... ]

I was showing one extreme to put ideas in your head..By the way. It really did work super well...almost too much tho :p

But really, just make sure that whatever you do, it will be balanced ( insize) with the 4430's. Trying non-horn speakers or not doing it right will result ( IMHO) alot of money spent and then not being happy.
also be very careful with the placement of the horn for pans.....

Rob really hit those areas well

I like the stuff you showed... I'll have to think about how it would sound..If I had time I'll do a test here BUT the 4430's are gone and little time now for it.

where do you plan to place this in relationship with the rest of your equip?

[JBLnsince1959]

I also tried using two 4206s as the center speaker, first together, then seperated. For me, I prefer the sound with them together, being more *focused*. .

yes, if you were using those I would agree with you completely ( kinda what I was talking about with Dome). Horns are another matter tho. Just test if you can before spending a lot.

[Zilch]

Wha'cha think? Do I get "new", or do I look for vintage?
The components you have selected are a significant departure from 4430. Please read the "Quick and Dirty 4430's" thread.


I'll have to check with them on which crossover to use.That part is well documented therein.... :p

[Don Mascali]

"...or how about a 2344A with one or perhaps a pair of 10" or 12 woofers oriented laterally."

Hey Widget

I was worried about reflections off the horn when run with the drivers to the side.

Hey Don

You have any problems with reflections off the horn??? Did you close up the sides or run them as is??

Rob:)

I run mine horizontally right at the bottom of the screen. As I said I went with 2-2123s in 16 ohm and a 2342/2416 in 8 ohm. I tried the horn both ways and ended up with the lips horizontal. I felt that it would block the other drivers if I didn't. I really couldn't hear much of a diference. It just looked bad, then the sideways horn looks a little weird too. I may turn it back around yet. My stuff is always in a state of constant change. The best part of this hobby is the tweaking. :bouncy:

I like the above/below and side/side idea but it just ain't practical with a large screen. My mains are 10 feet apart now and my listening position is only 14 feet away. I wouldn't have any more room as I only have 18 feet across the short end.