Payment by PayPal, Visa, MC, etc.

[edgewound]

Hello all...

Have you ever been asked by a seller to pay an extra 3% or whatever surcharge because you pay by credit card, PayPal,...etc? A seller can offer a cash discount but cannot legally charge you more because of your payment type. If he honors Paypal, Visa, MC, etc., it is a given that it is a convenient way for customers to pay, and a cost of doing business for a seller. I've noticed a few auctions and other websites that state you'll be charged an additional 3% for using PayPal to cover THEIR costs. While were at it, why don't we just write a check for THEIR electric bill too:bs: . Maybe this has already been discussed, but overhead is overhead. Don't fall for this practice....some years ago Bank of America told me it is illegal to charge more for a particular payment type.

I guess you could say that's my 3% worth.

Have a cool day...

Edgewound

[scott fitlin]

They changed my account without my consent, I had it on my credit card, then they changed to where you must put a bank account on Paypal, so after a bit, I just closed my account! From what I hear, quite a few people have been dis satisfied with paypal!

I dont use em anymore!

[Zilch]

Indeed, payment surcharges are illegal in virtually all states. A primary reason is linked to the ADA. Credit cards are the only payment method available to many handicapped persons....

While Paypal always uses funds in the Paypal account first, and defaults to the bank account as the payment method once those funds are exhausted, credit card is available as an alternative payment method. You just have to do it manually each time, including stepping through their "Are you SURE you don't want to pay with your bank account, instead?" page. ;)

[They don't want to pay the credit card fees, either, is all....]

[Lancer]

Have you ever been asked by a seller to pay an extra 3% or whatever surcharge because you pay by credit card, PayPal,...etc?Yes I have had to pay it when buying and I've turned around and asked for it when selling. I recently noticed PayPal took 4.1%. I was irritated as I only asked the buyer for 3%. I guess a Cashier's Check or USPS Money Order is the way to go.

While were at it, why don't we just write a check for THEIR electric bill tooOk! Thanks dude! :applaud::banana:

Indeed, payment surcharges are illegal in virtually all states....No, I didn't know that. :shock:
I guess they'll be coming to take me to jail. :(
I won't go without a http://www.austinserver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/sml_akimbo.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:emoticon(':akimbo:'))!

A primary reason is linked to the ADA. Credit cards are the only payment method available to many handicapped persons....Ah! Thanks for the info.


It is still true that some businesses won't take AMEX because of their surcharges?

[edgewound]

Yes I have had to pay it when buying and I've turned around and asked for it when selling. I recently noticed PayPal took 4.1%. I was irritated as I only asked the buyer for 3%. I guess a Cashier's Check or USPS Money Order is the way to go.
Ok! Thanks dude! :applaud::banana:
No, I didn't know that. :shock:
I guess they'll be coming to take me to jail. :(
I won't go without a http://www.austinserver.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/sml_akimbo.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:emoticon(':akimbo:'))!



It is still true that some businesses won't take AMEX because of their surcharges?

AMEX is a different merchant account with a their own qualification rules, as is Discover Card...and all have different settlement times.

I actually thinks it's way convenient for somebody to send me a payment via e-mail....and it's pretty darn quick... and don't have to go the bank...especially if you have the PayPal MC debit card. No....I'm not an advertiser for them....I've just found it very convenient.

[DavidF]

Going by memory, it is the credit card merchant agreement that prohibits a merchant from charging consumers a transaction fee or setting a minimum charge amount. Individual states may also have legislation related to this. It seems murky if someone selling on eBay is a "merchant" subject to such rules. If they accept credit card payments directly for payment, probably yes. If they (or your or me) are accepting PayPal payments, then no. Since PayPal is a third party in the transaction, the seller would not be bound by PayPal’s merchant agreement and could charge extra for the fee passed to them by PayPal.

DavidF

[edgewound]

I did a little Googling and found this...might clear things up:

http://http://www.creditinfocenter.com/cards/crcd_buy.shtml#Question6



Can the merchant charge credit card users more than cash customers for the same item?
In a word, maybe. In a few more words-- probably, if the merchant goes about it the right way.


The Federal Truth-in-Lending Act prohibited surcharges on credit card purchases until 1984; since then, there has been no Federal law on that subject. (Other provisions of the law are still in force.) The states of CA, CO, CT, FL, KS, MA, ME, NY, OK, and TX have laws against surcharges, according to Bankcard Holders of America.

Discover allows surcharges on credit card purchases, except in the above states. Visa and MasterCard prohibit them. American Express discourages them in general, and specifically prohibits them by merchants that also take MasterCard or Visa because Amex doesn't allow merchants to discriminate against it.

There is a loophole: merchants are allowed to give cash discounts. This means in practice that they can't charge you more than the labeled price if you pay by credit card, but they can charge you less if you pay cash. Some companies announce (usually in tiny print in the catalog) that all prices "reflect cash discount" of x% so credit card users must pay x% more than the stated price. This may be legal but it certainly violates the spirit of the law or the regulations. I don't know about the "service fee" charged credit card users for things like ordering tickets over the phone, but they're certainly not allowed to charge you a higher price in person than if you pay cash. There is another loophole according to Bankcard Holders of America (BHA). Certain government agencies are not allowed (by law) to pay "discount fees" which are the processing fees the bank charges merchants for handling credit card slips. Since the banks won't handle these for free, you may well have to pay a surcharge for the privilege if your state lets you pay license fees by credit card. However, BHA says that there are no exceptions for retail merchants. (return to Index) (http://www.creditinfocenter.com/cards/crcd_buy.shtml#Buying Things with Credit Cards)

I feel it is in all fairness to the buyer to figure in the cost of doing business before the sale, and not try to get away with a bunch of after sale add-on's....unless of course you like to get screwed, and pay more than you bought it for.

Have a good one,

Edgewound

[rek50]

Could we sleep better with this: Price $XX.XX (3% discount for USP Money Orders) ?

[John B]

It is against Ebay rules to charge a surcharge.

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/listing-surcharges.html
"Sellers may not charge eBay buyers an additional fee for their use of ordinary forms of payment, including acceptance of checks, money orders, electronic transfers or credit cards. Such costs should be built into the price of the item.



Violations of this policy may result in a range of actions, including:

Listing cancellation
Limits on account privileges
Account suspension
Forfeit of eBay fees on cancelled listings
Loss of PowerSeller status "

[geowal3]

. . .ransom my first-born. About three years ago, I had a heck of a problem with Pay"Pal".

The main problem was I could never talk to ANYBODY about the problem - they just kept sending me "form letter" emails. About ten months later, I FINALLY got my money back.

I learn slow, but I learn good!

[Mr. Widget]

Could we sleep better with this: Price $XX.XX (3% discount for USP Money Orders) ?

That is the correct way to word it...

I never offer PayPal or credit cards on my eBay sales. I always ask for the payment to be made by check or MO. Despite this I am still frequently asked if I'll take PayPal. I always say sure but you pay all of the fees. It is always over 3%.

I see it as a convenience to the buyer... if they want it, they must pay for it.

Widget

[edgewound]

. . .ransom my first-born. About three years ago, I had a heck of a problem with Pay"Pal".

The main problem was I could never talk to ANYBODY about the problem - they just kept sending me "form letter" emails. About ten months later, I FINALLY got my money back.

I learn slow, but I learn good!

There was a transition period when eBay bought PayPal....and i think with anything new, there is a period to iron out the problems....but I trust them. I traveled out of town a few weeks ago, and when they saw a transaction at a gas station with my debit card a couple of hundred miles from my home address, the fraud dept called my cell phone to make sure it was me making the purchase, and I had no problems calling them back and talking to a person about it...and they were very courteous and professional....but maybe next time will be different. For now...I've had very good experience with them.

[louped garouv]

I don't use pay pal at all -- bad experience with them and no person to talk (complain) to.....


if you want to stick them with all of the fees, why not use bidpay?

[boputnam]

"Sellers may not charge eBay buyers an additional fee for their use of ordinary forms of payment... Such costs should be built into the price of the item. OK, I get it. Bury the fees and it's not considered an additional fee. Bozos... It's none of their damned business.

I have at times offered to cover the PayPal fee, if that is more convenient for the seller, and I am in a hurry. It is far cheaper than paying a marked-up price, CA sales tax, and stocking fees which I would face from retail outlets.

I have requested the PayPal fee if someone insists upon using it. PayPal is a good, but expensive, convenience for eBay'ers. If a transaction goes wobbly, I have ALWAYS been refunded in-full through PayPal.

I guess the fee can be looked at as cost of insurance...

Oh, and to "Lancer" - yes, there remain many places that refuse AMEX. I prefer AMEX because I do not carry any balance, and get some winkie upgrades on overseas flights. But, that is my cursed lifestyle... :baby:

[John]

Just my 2 cents but by offering paypal the seller is opening the auctions on ebay to a much bigger bidding pool and as such benifits himself as well and not just the buyer. Larger number of bidders = Larger selling price.:D

[yggdrasil]

I think Paypal is very easy and convenient to use. Both ways.

It is my choice if I want to steer clear of auctions with Paypal / CC added charges.

I allways steer clear of checks, with one exception. It cost me $50 to send a check to pay for an item in the US. This cost does not vary with item cost. Item cost was $150.

[Zilch]

From the PayPal User Agreement:


"No Surcharges. Under Visa, MasterCard, Discover and American Express regulations and the laws of several states, including California, merchants may not charge a fee to the buyer for accepting credit card payments (often called a "surcharge"). You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as payment. This restriction does not prevent you from imposing a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge (in other words, the handling fee for transactions paid through PayPal may not be higher than the handling fee for transactions paid through other payment methods)."

Some eBay seller imposes a payment surcharge on an item I win, I pay it, and PayPal gets it back for me lickety-split.

[That's immediately AFTER I receive glowing feedback, of course. :p ]

In a private transaction, it's a mutual agreement; on eBay it's extortion....

[DavidF]

I think Paypal is very easy and convenient to use. Both ways.

It is my choice if I want to steer clear of auctions with Paypal / CC added charges.



I agree. Way convenient considering the alternatives. The lines to any Post Office in my area should have Starbuck's in the lobby and tables to ease the wait.

[Lancer]

Have you ever been asked by a seller to pay an extra 3% or whatever surcharge because you pay by credit card, PayPal,...etc?Just out of curiosity, who asked you for 3%?

[johnaec]

I've used PayPal for probably about 100 transactions, mostly buying, and have never had a problem. Well over 50 eBay transaction, no problems as well...

John

[edgewound]

Just out of curiosity, who asked you for 3%?

http://www.vintageaudiosales.com/

[Lancer]

OIC

[scott fitlin]

I've used PayPal for probably about 100 transactions, mostly buying, and have never had a problem. Well over 50 eBay transaction, no problems as well...

JohnIt, paypal, is easy and convenient! My problem is they " upgraded " my account without my consent! With this upgraded account, one has to list a bank account to use your paypal account! They said they couldnt reverse my account once it was upgraded. I even closed out my first account, and opened up a new one, still needed a bank account! Just using my CC was far simpler, even though my spending limit wasnt as high as it can be with a bank account!

My problem is that I didnt upgrade my account, they did! If I had wanted to upgrade or include a bank account, I always knew how, but it should be MY decision!

FWIW, I dont use a bank account for online purchases because of possibilities of others possobly getting into the account via hijacking my paypal account!

Just recently, my ebay account was hijacked by a third party, and luckily I saw strange emails in my hotmail account, alerted Ebay, and they did something about it before anything major happened!

Of course, it could happen with a CC too!

[johnaec]

FWIW, I dont use a bank account for online purchases because of possibilities of others possobly getting into the account via hijacking my paypal account!Since my bank considers me a premium customer, (mortgage, credit card, etc. all with them), they give me a second checking account for free. This I only use for PayPal. It never has very much money in it, so there's not much to lose, and whenever I need to make a PayPal purchase, I just do an instant online transfer from my main checking account to the one I use for eBay. I'd never give access to my main checking accoung to PayPal!

John

[Mr. Widget]

I'd never give access to my main checking accoung to PayPal!


Very good advice! I have been planning on a similar setup myself, but I keep forgetting to make the transfer.:banghead:

I would really kick myself if a "bad electron" entered my bank and closed my account.

Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

As a banker I can say have never had a problem with Pay Pal.

The convenience of being able to clear funds in two days as opposed to 3 months for oseas drafts/checks outweighs the risks.

Initially I set up my account with an Amex credit card as it had the best security features but my own bank card has since been upgraded with fraud screening.

Most banks now employ fraud scanning systems that roam accounts regularly for unusual activity. Fraud and unauthorised transactions are more likely to happen with over the counter transactions or remoted scanning of the magnetic stripe if you are near an ATM. My bank underwrites to protect a customer from any unauthorised E commerce activity.

That said card companies can charge back unauthorised transaction on request from the customer.

[LE15-Thumper]

I have had very good luck with Paypal. I have close to 375 transactions, buying & selling, on Ebay and about 99% were done through Paypal.

[sonofagun]

Why don't we set up our own credit card business? Hmmm....

Let's call it "JubalCharge" - no fees ever charged anybody - we'll do it for free!

Great idea huh?

:applaud:

[Audiobeer]

Just playing the devils advocate here.....some sellers on Audiogon tell folks they want a personal check, money order, but will take PayPal if buyer wants to pay 3%. I'm okay with that. If a seller on Audiogon wants $1000 as an example why should he lose $30 just because a buyer wants to use PayPal. I don't blame them myselves. Ebay on the other hand will not allow the seller to impose the 3% PayPal surcharge. I'm sure it's due to the fact that Ebay owns PayPal. If a seller posts a surcharge in the Ebay ad, that ad will be cancelled if ebay gets wind of it. They will however allow you to post that you will reduce the shipping and handling charges if the (buyer) chooses not to use PayPal. Again, just playing the devils advocate......if you are a private individual and you are selling an item it could come off as a pain to lose 3% of your sale to PayPal. The wise seller knows that by accepting PayPal you probably will get more bidders and the auction will bid up higher then without PayPal offered......so in essence you really aren't losing.

[bryantkenneth]

1.5% goes to bank who puts up money i.e. MBNA, Citigroup, or Chase the other 1.5% goes to association i.e. Visa, MC. Not sure what Paypal charges...just a freindly FYI.

[louped garouv]

1.5% goes to bank who puts up money i.e. MBNA, Citigroup, or Chase the other 1.5% goes to association i.e. Visa, MC. Not sure what Paypal charges...just a freindly FYI.

yeah and AMEX and Discover have screwed up merchant agreements too if you ask me..... that's why back in the day when Amex and Discover first came obout (diner'ss club too.....) some merchants didn't take em.....

but it is still a business cost IMO....

[JBL Dog]

Just playing the devils advocate here.....some sellers on Audiogon tell folks they want a personal check, money order, but will take PayPal if buyer wants to pay 3%. I'm okay with that. If a seller on Audiogon wants $1000 as an example why should he lose $30 just because a buyer wants to use PayPal. I don't blame them myselves. Ebay on the other hand will not allow the seller to impose the 3% PayPal surcharge. I'm sure it's due to the fact that Ebay owns PayPal. If a seller posts a surcharge in the Ebay ad, that ad will be cancelled if ebay gets wind of it. They will however allow you to post that you will reduce the shipping and handling charges if the (buyer) chooses not to use PayPal. Again, just playing the devils advocate......if you are a private individual and you are selling an item it could come off as a pain to lose 3% of your sale to PayPal. The wise seller knows that by accepting PayPal you probably will get more bidders and the auction will bid up higher then without PayPal offered......so in essence you really aren't losing.

I will pad my shipping and handling fees slightly to off-set Paypal fees (we're talking only about $5 in most cases). Since I'm in the middle of the country, the slight increase goes unnoticed when compared to what everyone else is charging. I pre-post my shipping fees in my auctions so there are no surprises. I don't believe I've ever had anyone complain that my shipping fees were excessive.

[Zilch]

They will however allow you to post that you will reduce the shipping and handling charges if the (buyer) chooses not to use PayPal. eBay may allow that, but Paypal doesn't. See Paypal User Agreement surcharge terms posted above:

"This restriction does not prevent you from imposing a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge (in other words, the handling fee for transactions paid through PayPal may not be higher than the handling fee for transactions paid through other payment methods)."

[JBL Dog]

Since my bank considers me a premium customer, (mortgage, credit card, etc. all with them), they give me a second checking account for free. This I only use for PayPal. It never has very much money in it, so there's not much to lose, and whenever I need to make a PayPal purchase, I just do an instant online transfer from my main checking account to the one I use for eBay. I'd never give access to my main checking accoung to PayPal!

John

Ditto John,

I'm using a special checking account for all my Ebay and Paypal transactions. Ebay fees are deducted monthly from this account. I haven't had any problems whatsoever. It takes a little discipline not to "buy" more than you "sell".... I'm doing okay so far!

:D

[JBL Dog]

eBay may allow that, but Paypal doesn't. See Paypal User Agreement surcharge terms posted above:

"This restriction does not prevent you from imposing a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge (in other words, the handling fee for transactions paid through PayPal may not be higher than the handling fee for transactions paid through other payment methods)."

Zilch:

Paypal's wording has me a little confused, but I can see their point. A successful $200 sale can net Ebay as much as $20.00 (includes listing fees) if the sale is consumated through Paypal. Reduce it by $6.00+ if another form of payment is used. Most of the sellers that get busted on Ebay for the "3% Paypal surcharge" are turned in by other Ebay members. I don't think many buyers would go running to Paypal and rat on the seller if they had an opportunity to save a few bucks by paying with a money order.

[Zilch]

While the laws generally allow discounts for cash (and cash equivalent) payments, I've never seen that loophole exploited on eBay.

[eBay don't like THAT either, most lilkely....]

[Mike Caldwell]

Hello
I do have the 3% posted in the terms of sale via pay-pal. 70% of the time I never even ask for it, depends on what the total amount is. Some people have offered it up on there own, for overseas pay-pal transfers the cost is about 5% to 6%. When I checked into getting a credit card service in their guide lines it was clearly stated about not asking for the whatever percentage amount fee. Overall having my own credit card terminal was way too expensive not only with the transaction fees but the monthly service fees and the set up charges. Ticket Master calls it a service fee or convenience charage when you get tickets from them using a credit card, I often wonder how they get away with that with their credit card service company.


Mike Caldwell

[Zilch]

Yeah, I've noticed that governments, tax authorities, utilities, phone and mortgage companies also all get away with charging "convenience fees" on top of credit card payments.

ADA has nothing to say about THAT?

[edgewound]

Yeah, I've noticed that governments, tax authorities, utilities, phone and mortgage companies also all get away with charging "convenience fees" on top of credit card payments.

ADA has nothing to say about THAT?

In light of that...maybe a revolt is in order...civilely(sp?) of course. The Government exempts itself from certain fees and taxes...but a deregulated utility?....hmmmm....it's no charge to pay your bill with on-line banking. Usually the convenience fee is for same day payment posting, when paying some bills over the phone....I think all fees to pay a bill are wrong...'cept maybe a late fee.

Edgewound

[Zilch]

Late fees are WRONG, too! :p

I'm always kissin' bootie to get them waived/removed.

'Till they say "TOO many!" :o:

[If they didn't have them in the first place, they wouldn't have to be listen' to me whingeing all the time....]

[DavidF]

Yeah, I've noticed that governments, tax authorities, utilities, phone and mortgage companies also all get away with charging "convenience fees" on top of credit card payments.

ADA has nothing to say about THAT?

That's cause you are paying a bill, or making a payment, not buying goods. What is the ADA, Zilch?

DavidF

[Zilch]

ADA is Americans with Disabilities Act.

For many disabled persons, credit card is the only reasonable payment method available.

Surcharges force them pay more for stuff than everybody else has to pay.

I don't know if the ADA actually says anything about it, but I understand that is the basis of laws prohibiting payment surcharges.

Surcharges are seen as discriminatory....