Combating H.F. Hearing Loss. ;)

[1audiohack]

I am on a quest for loud UHF solution. Something that will keep up with a large format driver running hard. I need a 2405 on steroids. An ideal curve would be like a 2402-05H but I don’t want to have to array four of those per side and deal with that sonic mess.

I bought a couple of JBL / Selenium ST400 bullet tweeters just to see how they measure and while shopping I found these little jewels! At $70. USD I couldn’t not buy one just to test drive. It’s made by Pyle, has a three inch voice coil and they state they go out to 25kHz. I guess it you don’t mind about 80 dB down haha.

Pictured for scale with it’s little cousins, a 075-105, 2402-05H and a ST400.

Barry.

[Robh3606]

Combating??? Looks like you on the opposite road!

Rob :)

[Mr. Widget]

Combating??? Looks like you on the opposite road!

Rob :)Heck yeah... listening to these bullets with a couple of watts input is bound to increase your hearing loss. :D


Widget

[1audiohack]

Haha for sure! The Pyle made my ears ring before I got it all the way out of the box.

Measurements done at 1M on axis with 120mV drive. Hopefully zooming in you can see whats what.

What I am really looking for is something with the frequency response of the 2402-05H in a horn driver. I have some BMS stuff coming.

Barry.

[Mr. Widget]

Can you post that at twice the size? I can't make out much.


Widget

[1audiohack]

I replaced it with as large as I could get the image to not fail on upload but I don’t think it’s any better. :(

Here is just the NOS 2402-05H showing magnitude and phase.

I should probably resize the screen grabs in the PC.

What I am playing around with is not near field listening but not combat audio either. It's the age old problem of wanting a PA to really sparkle. I can EQ a 2451SL nearly flat on a 4338 horn with a single capacitor but literally smashing 28 dB out of the middle of its dynamic capacity to do so ruins whats to love about a large format driver and horn.

When I saw that crazy Pyle bullet I just had to try one.

Barry.

[DerekTheGreat]

Cool stuff. That Pyle gets all squiggly by 17khz. I'm 36 and have tested myself, nothing past 16khz. So to me, anything beyond that is for dogs and marketers.

[Robh3606]

I replaced it with as large as I could get the image to not fail on upload but I don’t think it’s any better. :(

What I am playing around with is not near field listening but not combat audio either. It's the age old problem of wanting a PA to really sparkle. I can EQ a 2451SL nearly flat on a 4338 horn with a single capacitor but literally smashing 28 dB out of the middle of its dynamic capacity to do so ruins whats to love about a large format driver and horn.

When I saw that crazy Pyle bullet I just had to try one.

Barry.


Hello Barry

That is a hell of a lot of attenuation. Have you tried parametric EQ?? I was able to get good results with 2453 on a PT waveguide. What does a raw on axis no network measurement look like on the 4338 horn?? I have never used them, closest would be my Array Horns.

Rob :)

[Mr. Widget]

I replaced it with as large as I could get the image to not fail on upload but I don’t think it’s any better. :(

Better on my computer... now it's barely legible, but still illegible on iOS. Can you lower the resolution but maintain the size? That will usually make the file size much smaller by removing unnecessary data.


Widget

[jbl4ever]

Barry have you checked into the BMS 4540 nd or the 2407

[1audiohack]

Howdy JBL4;

How are you sir?

I have a pair of BMS 4590’s and 5530’s coming. I had a pair of 4590’s when they first came out and didn’t quite love them. Having since learned a bit about better integration I am going to give them another shot.

Hello Rob;

I should have the 2451SL PWT and on 4338 horn measurements in the shop. I will get them over here tomorrow. :) I also did PEQ yes.

Mr Widget I will get a better image and repost it.
Thanks guys.
Barry.

[1audiohack]

I am too late to edit so here is another attempt.

In white is a NOS 2402-05H.
Blue is a new JBL/Selenium ST400, the best of the two I have.
Yellow is the monster Pyle bullet.
All on axis at 1 meter driven at 120mV.

I will post the BMS measurements when they arrive.

Barry

[1audiohack]

Helo Rob;

Here is one of my PWT tests of a 2450SL. The cursers show the magnitude of the hump from ≈800Hz to 20kHz. The test parameters in the top left are accurate. The mic system used is a random incident Larson Davis 172 dB mic with its 200V preamp and power supply system so the 150 dB SPL is real.

The measurements with the 4338 horn must be on another computer.

I will find them shortly. Hopefully in time to edit this post.

[1audiohack]

I only have the very preliminary work on the 2451SL / 4338 here. The rest must be at the big shop.

In this screen I have the 2451SL that I used in this 4438 work shown. Up high is the PWT measurement. The jagged line with some downward slant is the 2451 / 4338 with zero EQ. The relatively kinda sorta flat line is the same with a 3uF cap in series only.

This was the very first work that I was doing some proof of concept work in my small garage with no clear path for a decent measurement but I didn't care for what I was looking for. I was just looking to see if I thought I really needed a UHF or not. Well, not if I want to give up about 20dB of dynamic headroom in the 2451, which I really do not.

[1audiohack]

Pic Quality Test

What ever I save these as when uploaded they are turned onto JPEGs. This is as good as I can get apparently.

This is the 2451SL /4338 with a ton of smoothing to tame the reflections corrupting the measurement for easy viewing with no cap on top moving from 20, 10, 4.5, to 3uF in case you can't read the text on screen.

Barry.

[1audiohack]

One more.

In this pic the white is four quick points of PEQ including a shelf. I didn't save the details though. Still in the quick and dirty phase. The yellow is just a 4.5uF cap. This swallows 15dB of dynamic headroom from the midband and 18dB when the 3.0uF cap gets used.

Rob if there is anything more that you wonder about the 4338 let me know and I will dig up my later work.

Barry.

[Mr. Widget]

Kind of OT, but check this out. According to the poster the pair of AMT drivers stacked with wings matches the ~106 dB sensitivity of the Klipschorn or La Scala horns.

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/188177-double-stack-ess-amt-1-with-wings-possible-kit-for-heritage/

On the surface this looks pretty darned impressive. Note the resolution on the FR plot. Easily as linear as a JBL 2405 and response to ~450Hz!


Widget

[toddalin]

If someone wants to use the ESS Great Heil AMT, I have 3D printing programs that I created to make a pair of "flairs" as well as a pair of extensions that follow the natural angle. But if you really want to have fun with an ESS AMT: https://www.audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/im-fixing-a-hole-heil.1025205/

[1audiohack]

Every time those Heils go up for sale I always consider them but have never made the leap. I have heard them but never really loved them. I guess I should work with a pair to really see.

I just bought a pair of Eminence N324X-8’s. These look promising. Carbon weave diaphram that waterfalls and extends better than Beryllium, non resonant 1mSec out and really makes it past 20kHz.

Test test test.
Barry.

[toddalin]

Every time those Heils go up for sale I always consider them but have never made the leap. I have heard them but never really loved them. I guess I should work with a pair to really see. I just bought a pair of Eminence N324X-8’s. These look promising. Carbon weave diaphram that waterfalls and extends better than Beryllium, non resonant 1mSec out and really makes it past 20kHz. Test test test. Barry.If you make the modifications I made (i.e., the back half round and front flares), the soundstage/imaging/detail from the Heils is unlike any JBLs I've ever heard. If you get out to Orange County, CA (or anyone else is in the area), feel free to arrange a demo.

[Robh3606]

Every time those Heils go up for sale I always consider them but have never made the leap. I have heard them but never really loved them. I guess I should work with a pair to really see.

Test test test.

Barry.

Hello Barry

Pull the trigger! They are lots of fun to experiment with. I used a pair for a while and for now have them in storage but I will be bringing them back at some point.

Rob :)

[Steve Schell]

Hi Barry, guys, long time no talk. Try as I might, I can't make out the frequencies on your curves of the ST-400. Am I seeing a steady droop above 10 khz., or earlier? I'm keenly interested, as I have been running the Selenium / JBLs for a while now, ever since they were $30 each NIB on ebay. This was around five years ago.My ears only function to 10 or 11 kHz. these days, so I have a droop as well. The STs sound very sweet and non-fatiguing to me, which I attribute to their phenolic diaphragms. They keep up fine with my live drum kit recordings, pulling about even with the 075s, my previous favorites. I like the old ESS big Heils as well. A pair of ESS transmission line towers with the AMTs on top serve as my computer monitors.