Heather's new L200 JBL Dynamics Project

[hjames]

Just a starting post for this JBL thread. Ages ago, circa 2006, thanks to @BigYank, I won a pair of 4320 2-ways.
https://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?9796-4320-Project&p=100289&viewfull=1#post100289
I moved into some L200B cabinets, grew them into 3 ways, switched from the exponential horns to some JohnW smith-horns,
and then moved them on around 2016. Sold them off.

The sale made sense at the time, but I've since decided I liked that sound and want another pair. Well, with some updates.
Folks have been talking about updating older designs with the 2016nd 15" woofer, and - others have said the L200 Cab design is old,
not the best, and it would be better if the woofer was higher from the floor.
Heck, in 2011 Nelson Pass posted a design for a "Nelson Pass styled L300 Summit Crossover" which he thought was a good compromise
to update the famous JBL 3-ways (which many of us tried to update our L200s into in one way or another).
Other folks are saying passive crossover designs are badly dated and active crossover and biamp or triamped design is really the way to go.

Darned if I know which is best, or what I will prefer here.
But to facilitate my 2022 JBL Project, I've been collecting parts. Found a pair of JBL 2216ND Woofer (for JBL M2) via Speaker Exchange in FLA.
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While I was throwing out ideas on the project on AK, Jeff PMed me and said he had a pair of horns like mine that he wasn't using - make an offer (!).
We settled on a fair price, he packed them "bomb-proof" for the trip to me in VA, and, a nice pair of mahogany JohnW Smith horns are now here in VA.
Funniest thing is JohnW made them for Dhar here in the DC area, then Dhar sold them to Jeff in Texas! Now from Texas back to DC area. Such a round trip!

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While that was going on, I found a pair of 2445j drivers and made a fair offer on eBay for them & also got the 2328 Horn adapters off Reverb.

Subwoof and others said they could sound harsh, and I'd likely prefer a newer pair of coated diaphragms, so I got the JBL D8R2452-SL Diaphragms,
again, via Speaker Exchange.

Did my first time large format diaphragm install, used a tone generator to center them as I reassembled the drivers, then bolted them to the Smith Horns.
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I still have a pair of Heathkit branded Altec Valencias (my LAST project) in the living room, for sale, so I tied some LPads across to the 2446 drivers,
did a cheesy quick & dirty hookup in parallel to the Valencias, turned down their horns, and have them running now.
Def not perfect, but I can tell they work, and that the new diaphragms are a great improvement over the original 34 year old TI dias.
I got a pair of the "Nelson Pass style L300 Summit crossovers" online. I'm sure they're not the best caps,
but they are built on a nice etched PC board, which saves me a lot of time - so all I need are the 2 LPads for Mids and Highs,
plus a pair of 5-way jacks for inputs, and 3 pair of jacks for the outputs (Lo, Mid, hi).
So, it makes sense to build the crossovers in external cabinets that I can put on top of the woofer cabinets, just under the horns.
If I decide to go active later, I can sell the 3 ways easier in a nice box than just as wired parts removed from the main cabinet.
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So, that was this week's project. I'm the first to admit I am not a cabinetmaker or any kind of woodworker, but I do the best I can.
Got some 1x3 poplar planks from Home Depot - figured a good dimension would be 10 x 16 - so it could be under the horn, LPads on front,
and it could function as a nice support for the smith horn. Cut lumber, mocked it up, and after I glued them up, Checked them under the horn.


I do have a pair of nearly new Great Heil subwoofer, that could easily sit on top of the smith horns and still be at ear level.
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[hjames]

Once I got the mocked up crossover boxes in place, I realized the adapter lip for the horn to adapter transition
would limit the front-to-back position of the driver on top of the main cabinet.
(The 2445j drivers came with a beefy metal mount that supports them - and if I use 18" x 18" granite tiles
as cabinet toppers, that support bracket needs to sit on top of it,
and I didn't want to have to slide it to the back edge of the granite topper.

Couldn't see any way around it, so I knocked down the boxes, recut the side panels, and just glued it back together as a 7 x 16 box.
I'll let it dry overnight, then trim the box bottom with a router (got a roller-bearing bit on the way from Amazon sometime today).
Not sure if I'll need a top, but I do have some more of the wood panelling I can is I do.
I've got some rubber pads I stripped from some cork isolation blocks I've had, and I'll glue them to the top and bottom of the crossover boxes
just to protect the mahogany Smith horns

Once the boxes are built, I can mount the jacks and LPads and solder them all together. Later this weekend, as time allows.

The main design for the woofer cabinets is 5 cu ft. boxes of Baltic Birch. More details on that, and the gentlemen building them for me in a later post.
(Like I say, I do the best I can but I am no woodworker nor cabinetmaker!)
I do have some tools, and a shopmate folding workbench I rigged up with interchangeable benchtops I made for a Table Saw, and a mitre saw I bought years back.
But - we have a small house, no garage of basement workshop - so when I use the power tools, I set up in the backyard under a magnolia tree ...

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The smaller box mockup - design and visual look.

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[Robh3606]

Hello Heather

Nice to see a new DIY project on the forum. Active vs passive that's a hard question considering you can get great results from both. Doing your own custom cabinets is certainly a much better idea than trying to re-purpose a pair of L200 cabinets. In 5 cubic ft with 2216nd's you certainly have a "window" and some flexibility to tune the boxes depending on what you want to do and what works best in your room.

I still have my HEIL's can't say I ever thought to use them in a large 3 way. That could be a lot of fun. A supper 077 Slot with built in adjustable rear ambiance.

Keep us posted!

Rob :)

[spkrman57]

I need to get my 1501Fe, 2206J and 2445/Be on 500Hz round Edgarhorn. Biamped between 1501Fe and 2206J so I can use Single ended tube amps on top and SS on LF.

Your system is a inspiration for me.

Thanks, Ron

[macsic]

Hello,
I tried to integrate the Heils which I had taken on my ESS AMT-1A Monitor during the reconstruction of their crossovers, tests with a system using 2450/2397, Altecs 817a, I really like the Heils but I am returned to 2405 after a few months of testing of all kinds, this choice is not as obvious as I might have thought. The reason for this return is better overall integration for efficiency, if you adjust for a specific volume the Heil has a higher holographic side to the 2405 that's really their strength and magic.
Your experience could really be different with the very enviable 2216nd which have an efficiency closer to the Heil but still quite different from the 2445, experience that I do not have.
I would be surprised if you were disappointed.
Have fun.

[Mr. Widget]

Very, very cool… thanks for sharing your project with us, keep it coming!


Widget

[hjames]

Put the bearing router bit in a nearly unused router, set up the shopmate out back at 9AM, and trimmed the cabinet bottoms.
Knocked the bench down, touched up the cabinet stain in a few places, then took Emma out for Dim Sum at 11:30
(Emma's choice, once a month at Mark's Duck House near 7 Corners).

Final mockup complete, parts fit checks out.
Now all that remains is the final assembly and solder work.

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[DerekTheGreat]

Really cool, and nice woodwork. Much better than I'll ever be able to muster, that's for sure. I really like the look of your crossover boxes. :)

[hjames]

I got the 3-way crossover boxes completed late yesterday. Hooked them up this morning - Woofer out feeding the main in of the Heath/Valencias,
with the Valencia treble turned down, mids tied to the 2445j/Mahogany horns, and decided, what the heck - so I pulled out the Great Heils
and hooked them up as tweeters.
I figure the caps need to be broken in, and so do the new diaphragms in the horns - but its actually not bad!

I'm actually tempted to gut the Heath cabinets, flip the front panel to lift the woofer mount,
and install the 2216nd in that box ...
just to move things along ...
but I probably won't go that route.

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[Mr. Widget]

I imagine the horns need to be padded down quite a bit to mesh with the air motion transformers. Interesting combination of bits and bobs.

I think the 2216Nds deserve a dedicated box... they are too good to get "hand me down" cabinets. :bouncy:


Widget

[hjames]

Custom woofer cabinets for the 2216nds - that's the plan!
A couple of local friends have offered to make some 5 cu Ft cabinets to handle that issue.
I'm just overly enthused about the success so far!

(and besides, L200 cabinets have gotten a lot more rare, or in demand, than when I did my last set of builds 15 years back!)



I imagine the horns need to be padded down quite a bit to mesh with the air motion transformers. Interesting combination of bits and bobs.

I think the 2216Nds deserve a dedicated box... they are too good to get "hand me down" cabinets. :bouncy:


Widget

[grumpy]

:bouncy: :lurk:

[hjames]

Although I have been enjoying the stacked L212s with the improved quality of the Acurus A200 (and matched RL11 preamp), I have not forgotten the project - tho its like more like a late 2023 or 2024 build. And - I've been offered a pair of Altec Valencias Cabinets to use as the bass boxes for the project - waiting to hear if they are the A or the B series ...
If they are like my Heath "Valencias", those are nicely robust cabinets. I can cover the internal horn slot easily enough to use them as Bass boxes.

So, I've got a Q - Altec Valencia dimensions are 27.5"W x 30"H x 19.5"D - multiplied out that gives me 16,087.5 cu inches-
which, divided by 1728 cu Inches, gives me 9.32 cu Ft - but ... that can't be right - what am I doing wrong here?
Just trying to get an idea of the actual volume of those boxes.

[Mr. Widget]

Your math is right, but are those internal or external dimensions?


Widget

[hjames]

Your math is right, but are those internal or external dimensions?


Widget

Yep, external dimensions ...
So - 9.x Cu Ft external may be ... 4 or 5 cu ft internal?
That should be enough for a 2216ND to breath well, do you think?

[Mr. Widget]

It is really hard to guess what the internal dimensions are because of the furniture nature of enclosure. My guess is that the internal volume is likely around 6 cu ft.
More than enough for a 2216ND.


Widget

[RMC]

Quickly.

Though the math is right for ext. box dimensions/volume, the assumption it might lead to a 4-5 cu ft internal volume sounds like "creative accounting" since it would represent approx a 50% box size reduction from the 9.32 cu ft. Overly optimistic in my view, likely more than 4-5 cu ft. internal. Sorry. Two options to make this more realistic.

1- Measure internal dimensions (if possible), then do the same calculations as before, after that subtract about one cu ft for volume displaced by woofer and bracing. This will give a closer actual Vb figure of the dedicated box.

2- In absence of internal dimensions and/or of an accurate panel(s) thickness number(s), assume 3/4" material and calculate/add the volume of each box panel to get a total number for these, this is to be subtracted from the 9.32 cu ft since it was an external box volume. Moreover subtract about one cu ft for volume displaced by woofer and bracing. This will also give a closer to real life cab volume figure.

Some panel overlaps may make the calculations a bit more tricky but these should be quite small numbers of low impact, so nothing to lose sleep about if they're not fully or correctly considered in the calculations.

[hjames]

Well, the fact is that I don't actually own the Valencia speaker cabinets yet so I can't measure the interior.
I DID have a pair of Heathkit Valencias I was modding for quite a while but sold them about a year ago.
I've been offered some empty Valencia cabinets and I'm trying to discern if they are a reasonable box
to use for the 2216ND speakers I do own before I go through whatever logistics are involved in obtaining them.
That said, it does sound as if they're of a volume that'd work for this project.

[rusty jefferson]

If I'm reading the dimensions on these drawings correctly the 846A is 5.7 cubic feet empty and the 4367 appears to be about 5.5 cubic feet.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://greatplainsaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Loudspeaker-Enclosures-Their-Design-and-Use.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiJmMLsjYuCAxUilYkEHc20C0kQFnoECB4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw0n7sBs3F53ywEy7QjYonWn

[RMC]

I get 6 cu ft internal for an empty 846A cab, pretty close to the other result. Not easy plans to deal with and figure out some things, clarity isn't its best asset, even with the large amount of details given.

As for 2216nd suitability in such box one should model it in speaker software using various tuning frequencies in order to decide about the best outcome (LF curve shape) vs expectations or user needs.

[Robh3606]

Hello Heather

I am using 4.7 cubic ft for my 2216's They are tuned to 25Hz and I use the same alignment as used in the B380/B460. I only use +3db instead of the +6 in the BX-63.

When I was setting things up I had a 32Hz option and can run them with no LF boost and on most music they sound fine.

A larger cabinet will be fine. I am on the "small" size by design to keep the whole system size in check and don't use the volume behind the waveguide.

Might want to think about a custom cabinet if only to get the woofer "off the floor".

Rob :)

[hjames]

Hello Heather
I am using 4.7 cubic ft for my 2216's They are tuned to 25Hz and I use the same alignment as used in the B380/B460. I only use +3db instead of the +6 in the BX-63.
When I was setting things up I had a 32Hz option and can run them with no LF boost and on most music they sound fine.
A larger cabinet will be fine. I am on the "small" size by design to keep the whole system size in check and don't use the volume behind the waveguide.
Might want to think about a custom cabinet if only to get the woofer "off the floor".
Rob :)
Thank you, Rob!

Couple ideas - I tend to add wheels to the bottom of the larger cabinets I have, makes it easier to move and to clean around it, as I did with the Heath/Valencias last year.

Like I say, I don't have them yet, just thinking through possibilities if I go that route.
I did some measurements with the Heathkit/Valencias I had last year, to get an idea of the general height.
I had furniture wheels screwed directly into the bottom of the cabinet just inside the factory plinth, which lifted it maybe 1.5 inches.
The 3-way crossovers I built fit just under the smith horns, so the dimensions are pretty close to the mockups.

[Robh3606]

Thank you, Rob!

Couple ideas - I tend to add wheels to the bottom of the larger cabinets I have, makes it easier to move and to clean around it, as I did with the Heath/Valencias last year,
so I'm thinking - if I made a Plinth/footer "skirt" to go around the factory base I could get wheels under it as well as lift the woofer higher off the floor.
What do you think - lift them 8-10 inches or so?

Like I say, I don't have them yet, just thinking through possibilities. I found this stock image online.

Hello Heather

I like to do that too! I did the same thing for my 4344 clones. They are on 12" stands more in line to get the 077 at seated ear height.

I think you have a good plan and you could experiment with the height so the HEIL doesn't get too high or low like the 077

Rob :)

[hjames]

I've been busy in retirement with other projects, yardwork, cleaning up after trees that blew down, and more recently cast iron drain pipe issues.
And downsizing - selling off old furniture from my folks and grandma and making room. But fortunately I've kept a decent system in place so I can unwind
with music when I get the chance.
And now, early November 2023, the Dynamics project made a step ahead.
I heard from Subwoof, who is also in the verge of retirement, and downsizing all of his spares and strays - and said he had a clean pair of L200 cabinets I might want!
Hey, I did an L200 project once before and liked the results!
So over the last week or so we got plans to meet up and get the cabinets.
Turned out it was the one weekend a year we go to my sister in law's place in Richmond and do the Highland Festival - bagpipes, drummer, beer, scotch tastings, and more.

Anyway, Mike and I met up saturday evening after the festival, exchanged greetings (its been a few years since last we met),
swapped the cabinets, and - darned if they didn't actually fit into my little Honda Fit for the ride back to Fairfax today!
It'll probably be a few weeks before I get the excess holes covered, get wheels underneath, and start assembling things -
but its a step in the right direction!

And - just to detail the electronics behind the current 2ch system:
I have a WiiM Pro as an audiostreamer (mostly tuned to Qobuz, but I can also feed from a large lossless digital music library on a macMiini in my office via Airtunes).
The streamer feeds a Topping E30 II DAC.
That feeds an Acurus RL11 preamp and an Acurus A200 power amp that replaced the Carver TFM-25 power amp I used most recently (both roughly 200w/ch).
I still have the Jolida Tube amp, tho its currently offline. I do have a Carver FM tuner I rarely use, and a Denon DF35 turntable that's rarely used.

But, the plain fact is - Emma and I are both amazed we got 2 JBL L200 cabinets in the back of the Honda Fit!
And got the lid closed for the 120 miles trip home!!
And, frankly, found room in our small house to get those things indoors!

[hjames]

Did my run to Home depot, got screws to mount the woofers, got wood to cover the excess holes I don't need, and silicone caulk to seal the wooden covers to the baffle board.
Tho I do have a few holes to fill with silicone (leaving just the single port remaining), and I will need to mount wheels underneath,
I have now basically completed installing the woofers into the 2 cabinets!
Phase 1 is DONE!

Need to find some room in the living room to set these up for testing, but I have do have one in place -
got the 18 x 18 granite tile topper in place, tho I need to play with the foam spacer to get the height right.
I've also got to dig out the Great Heils and make up some dual banana cables for the crossover outputs.

Probably got a couple days before I can actually run some music through them, but ... its so close!!!

[hjames]

DONE!! Initial assembly completed - music is playing!
But the heavy lifting is accomplished -
the darned Woodhorn/Midrange driver combo is 44lbs!
Time for breakfast and a celebratory Spaten Octoberfest!!
The fine tuning can happen as time allows!

[Robh3606]

Hello Heather

The Heil's look great perched up on the Smiths!!! 44lbs!!! What are you running alnico or ferrite??? One advantage of the neo's much lighter. Well one things for sure they aren't going anywhere!!

Rob :)

[hjames]

Doesn't sound right with the eBay sourced "Nelson pass style L300" crossovers. So I got the parts to build a pair of Giskard style 3133 Modified crossovers like I had for the last pair.
And bought a pair of 2405 slots from an ebay seller in Japan. They arrived today, and I went to Michael's hobbies to get a pair of small wooden boxes to mount the slots in.
Over the next few days I'll drill them with a hole saw, stain them to match the crossover boxes I built last year, and see how that works out,
but for now I put them in place for a brief test - yep, they got that sizzle!
Oh, I painted the foams black since I prefer that over their original dull brown.

[rusty jefferson]

....but for now I put them in place for a brief test - yep, they got that sizzle!...
So, you got the sizzle, but did you get the steak? :-)

I've never seen those tweeters turned that way......I assume they have wide horizontal dispersion and narrow vertical dispersion when mounted vertically? Is that a preferred position?

[RMC]

Actually JBL's Manual recommends that the slot be vertically aligned for best horizontal dispersion.

My understanding is that for a quick test to confirm working or not then orientation might be less important. However the user will not be in a position to fully appreciate the device's large horizontal dispersion during a test conducted the way shown.

And then there's the odd cases where users may actually prefer the "wrong way" to mitigate sound bouncing on side walls in a narrow room for example, or even another application which does require a wider vertical beam.

Richard

[hjames]

Actually JBL's Manual recommends that the slot be vertically aligned for best horizontal dispersion.

My understanding is that for a quick test to confirm working or not then orientation might be less important. However the user will not be in a position to fully appreciate the device's large horizontal dispersion during a test conducted the way shown.

And then there's the odd cases where users may actually prefer the "wrong way" to mitigate sound bouncing on side walls in a narrow room for example, or even another application which does require a wider vertical beam.

Richard
Yes, thanks ;)
They are not my first pair of slots ...
I fully expect to use it with the slot vertical. I got a pair of boxes from Michael's yesterday and will drill them, stain them, and mount the slots into them.
The photo was a quick image staged right after I unboxed them and did a brief test to be sure they actually made sound, and yes, they got the sizzle!

[Mr. Widget]

I may have missed it… slots or AMTs? Have you picked one direction over the other? I assume they would each best integrate with the 2397 with pretty different crossover tunings. Have you explored this?


Widget

[toddalin]

You may want them mounted with the slots horizontal if the speakers were "flown."

[hjames]

Next step done. Drilled, stained & assembled the slot boxes and put them into place. Vertical, of course ;)
(tho I haven't built the new xovers yet, still on the so called Nelson Pass style design,

The initial slot tweeter addition seems like an improvement over the Heils with this crossover,
tho not exact, its closer to the driver config of the L300 crossover design ...

But ... there is a new Christmas tree in the middle of the sound field!
... long as it sounds good by my birthday in February, I'll be happy!

[toddalin]

I like the tweeter boxes better than the last set.

[hjames]

I like the tweeter boxes better than the last set.
Its the absolute minimum "height" that will hold the 2405 tweeter, and doesn't need an LPad in the box,
and looks better Horizontal than this vertical config I tried first with the slot aligned on the long axis ...

[Odd]

Nice, now you are almost back where you were a few years ago.

[hjames]

Nice, now you are almost back where you were a few years ago.
absolutely! What was I thinking, selling the first set off in 2015?
But these have the 2216ND woofers ... the old pair had 2234 woofs ;)

[Mr. Widget]

Nice, now you are almost back where you were a few years ago.:rotfl:

If I could get back to where I was.... nah, I'll keep moving forward. :)


But these have the 2216ND woofers ... the old pair had 2234 woofs ;)Heck yes they do!


Widget

[Robh3606]

Looking good Heather!

Rob :)

[hjames]

Thank you all for much great feedback as I progressed along this build. Emma (who has the better ears of the 2 of us) says its a huge improvement over the Heils.
Frankly, I may not need to build the Giskard modified 3133 xovers after all as the ebay sourced "Nelson Pass style L300 xover" sounds mighty good with these drivers.

[Mr. Widget]

Excellent!

That's very cool... now, I just need to find a pair of these danged cabinets!


Widget

[Robh3606]

Well that's good news! Still going to experiment with the Heils or do something else with them??

Or undecided??

Preference is such a personal thing. I still have mine and will resurrect again but after experience with them I preferred a compression driver horn combo covering the same range.

I ended up absorbing most of the "backwave" as I found it detracted from the imaging and became too diffuse.

I was using them from 800Hz and up but as a tweeter it may actually be preferable. Still see systems with back firing tweeters to increase the "ambience/Spaciousness"

All in good fun!

Rob :)

[hjames]

Well that's good news! Still going to experiment with the Heils or do something else with them??
Or undecided??

Preference is such a personal thing. I still have mine and will resurrect again but after experience with them I preferred a compression driver horn combo covering the same range.

I ended up absorbing most of the "backwave" as I found it detracted from the imaging and became too diffuse.

I was using them from 800Hz and up but as a tweeter it may actually be preferable. Still see systems with back firing tweeters to increase the "ambience/Spaciousness"

All in good fun!

Rob :)
Indeed. Our Von Schweikert VR-4s have a rear-facing tweeter and a control to dial in how much "ambience" you want in your room. Due to the stairways, our living room system has the speakers close to 1/3 of the way in the room, and the Cathedral ceiling adds a lot of "air" into whatever system plays in that room. I have demoed most of the speakers we own in that room, including various DCM Time Frame speakers, older Magnepans, and the Vandersteen 2Ces and 2CIs I've owned (never quite got the Vandersteen 3s to work there). I'm still using DCM TimeFrame 600s as rear surrounds down in the TV room and they also have a rear facing tweeter that expands the room for films, etc .
Of course the L200/3 ways have no rear facing element ... ;)

No plans for the Great Heils right now, but it appears that I can sell them for a bit above what I paid for them (no rush), so I'm content to let them sit for a while, at least.

[toddalin]

I use them from ~3kHz up. I totally block the rear wave and have recently added a felt layer to the rear half-rounds. The half-round makes all the difference in the world and I've NEVER heard speakers that could image like these. One of the gents from AK came by for a listen the other day and said that he had just heard a $100,000+ system (with $40K monoblocks) that could not image like this. They image better than Big Red Super 604s, tri-amped.

He has 604 Hollywoods, big ADS, and ??? and said that he would have to re-assess everything.

As for noise and distortion, I'm fairly convinced that the Heils are just so revealing that you are just hearing grunge and noise inherent in the system/source and the Heils just bring it out. Put on a clean recording and it all goes away.

No eq or room correction, electronic or physical, is being used here, though I did have the "Presence" switched on in the crossover, which on this cut, may be a bit overbearing at times. If too much, this can create a "congestion" and maybe this is what Heather was hearing.

https://youtu.be/Rq1qn-FYqEo

[Mr. Widget]

One of the gents from AK came by for a listen the other day and said that he had just heard a $100,000+ system (with $40K monoblocks) that could not image like this. They image better than Big Red Super 604s, tri-amped.

He has 604 Hollywoods, big ADS, and ??? and said that he would have to re-assess everything.While I do not dispute that your system may provide better imaging (though different listeners may have different ideas about what that term means) than several other systems regardless of cost, let's look at what imaging is for a second.

In the past folks claimed that a speaker imaged better if it was omni directional, or semi-omnidirectional like the Bose 901, or if the speaker was a dipole like a Maggie or electrostatic panel, or if the baffle was stepped for better time alignment like the Dahlquist DQ10, or had radiused or softened corners to avoid edge diffraction like the KEF 105 and original B&W 801, or it would be improved by probably a dozen other factors.

Today it is pretty widely understood that imaging is most influenced by the room, the loudspeaker's directivity, and their interaction.

With that understanding, I can certainly see how your controlling the radiation pattern of the Air Motion Transformer will effect the imaging, but that alone will not give you great imaging. You must also have a great room and you must have done everything else right too. Well done.


Widget

[toddalin]

Room is large (~5,000 cu ft) and symmetrically arranged.

Yes I do time alignment between the 2241H, 2251J, and Heil. Also, the 2251 is in a narrow cabinet with rounded edges. The detail that a 2251 can convey is unreal.

I don't believe in anything that produces a rear wave to bounce willy-nilly around the room and smear the images, though the 2251s do have rear ports. The Heils also had flairs added.

[Mr. Widget]

Room is large (~5,000 cu ft) and symmetrically arranged.

Yes I do time alignment between the 2241H, 2251J, and Heil. Also, the 2251 is in a narrow cabinet with rounded edges. The detail that a 2251 can convey is unreal.

I don't believe in anything that produces a rear wave to bounce willy-nilly around the room and smear the images, though the 2251s do have rear ports. The Heils also had flairs added.That is a big room! Of course so is your typical airport terminal and we've all heard how bad they sound. :D

You must also have your system positioned optimally and likely have well controlled first reflections.

I think you missed my point about time alignment and rounded corners, but the physical controls you've placed on the tweeters along with the 10" drivers crossed over at ~3K are probably going a long way towards achieving your goal.


Widget

[toddalin]

That is a big room! Of course so is your typical airport terminal and we've all heard how bad they sound. :D

You must also have your system positioned optimally and likely have well controlled first reflections.

I think you missed my point about time alignment and rounded corners, but the physical controls you've placed on the tweeters along with the 10" drivers crossed over at ~3K are probably going a long way towards achieving your goal.


Widget

PM I received on Audiogon yesterday:

Dear toddalin,
I hope you are not upset by our posts in "Big speakers" thread. Your recording "Time" sounds great and better than many 6 figure sound systems.

You mentioned "my technology." My tech is in cables. My power cords influence much in my system. However, I haven't heard my power cords in other people's system many times so far. So, I love to hear your system and compare sounds with and without my power cords.

Please let me know if it is OK I come to your place. I think our meeting can be done in less than 1 hour.
Alex/Wavetouch audio

[Mr. Widget]

PM I received on Audiogon yesterday:

Dear toddalin,
I hope you are not upset by our posts in "Big speakers" thread. Your recording "Time" sounds great and better than many 6 figure sound systems.

You mentioned "my technology." My tech is in cables. My power cords influence much in my system. However, I haven't heard my power cords in other people's system many times so far. So, I love to hear your system and compare sounds with and without my power cords.

Please let me know if it is OK I come to your place. I think our meeting can be done in less than 1 hour.
Alex/Wavetouch audioWell I don’t want to hijack this thread any further than we already have, so I will send you a PM.

Widget

[Robh3606]

Hello Toddalin

Why don't you start a new thread to let us know how it goes??

Rob :)

[toddalin]

Hello Toddalin

Why don't you start a new thread to let us know how it goes??

Rob :)

The problem is that he makes/sells power cords and I have a 30 amp locking plug which is not compatible and when the entertainment center is assembled, there is no plug access. The entertainment system is on a dedicated 20 amp breaker with 8-gauge romex and no splices along the line. The two 20 amp hospital outlets are also on this line with no breaks/splices in the line from the breaker.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.corvetteforum.com-vbulletin/2000x1333/80-dsc_0009_515f2b5a91414dfcf37353ab6446b6c3bc4fb0f9. jpg

[Mr. Widget]

The problem is that he makes/sells power cords and I have a 30 amp locking plug which is not compatible and when the entertainment center is assembled, there is no plug access. The entertainment system is on a dedicated 20 amp breaker with 8-gauge romex and no splices along the line. The two 20 amp hospital outlets are also on this line with no breaks/splices in the line from the breaker.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.corvetteforum.com-vbulletin/2000x1333/80-dsc_0009_515f2b5a91414dfcf37353ab6446b6c3bc4fb0f9. jpgSounds like you made the correct choices already. If you can "over size" the wiring between your panel and your audio gear on a dedicated circuit you should have maximized your system's performance from a power input side and adding a fancy cable will do nothing.

There are cases where you need to add an isolation transformer and use star grounding for your room(s), this sort of thing is common in studio complexes, but for our needs, you have gone the extra mile and covered your bases. Well done.


Widget

[Earl K]

Nice Heather!!

I've been seeing this room for many years now from just a single perspective // and now getting to see it from the overhead, is a real eye-opener >> so thanks for that!

Very Cool!

:cool:

[Mr. Widget]

Nice drone shot!

I imagine the books and bookcases behind the listening position make the room sound pretty good.


Widget

[toddalin]

Nice Heather!!

I've been seeing this room for many years now from just a single perspective // and now getting to see it from the overhead, is a real eye-opener >> so thanks for that!

Very Cool!

:cool:

Nice overview.

[toddalin]

Sounds like you made the correct choices already. If you can "over size" the wiring between your panel and your audio gear on a dedicated circuit you should have maximized your system's performance from a power input side and adding a fancy cable will do nothing.

There are cases where you need to add an isolation transformer and use star grounding for your room(s), this sort of thing is common in studio complexes, but for our needs, you have gone the extra mile and covered your bases. Well done.


Widget

From the power cord manufacturer:

Hi toddalin,
I am sorry for late reply!

Thank you for details of your system. It seems changing something different to your system could result badly. I decide not listen my pc with your system at this time. I am very cautious with other people's systems since they are delicate.

Thank you for your help and we will still have a fun in A'gon.
Alex / WTA