End game Speaker system, M2 or K2

[retromick]

hey guys,
been a while since I have posted, I am preparing my 4435's for sale and looking to by my end game speakers.
I have an opportunity to purchase the M2 or K2 at a reasonable price.
I have Bryston amplification and also have a pair of Sub-18 clones with Crown amplification.
I would like to hear from you guys on your opinions of both.
I have spent time with the M2,s but not the K2s9900.
Thoughts?

thanks in advance
Mick

[Mr. Widget]

I will give you one person's opinion. Since you have a subwoofer, for me the answer is easy. I would go with the K2S9900.

The M2 is arguably the better speaker, but for me the dynamics of the 4" compression driver trumps the D2 ring radiator. Both systems have exceptional woofers, the M2 may play a bit lower, but they are both excellent.

Others will likely disagree and prefer the accuracy and imaging of the M2.


Widget

[retromick]

I will give you one person's opinion. Since you have a subwoofer, for me the answer is easy. I would go with the K2S9900.

The M2 is arguably the better speaker, but for me the dynamics of the 4" compression driver trumps the D2 ring radiator. Both systems have exceptional woofers, the M2 may play a bit lower, but they are both excellent.

Others will likely disagree and prefer the accuracy and imaging of the M2.


Widget
Thanks for the reply Mr Widget,
I love the look of the K2, for years I have had large ugly monitors, ( apart from the S4700s i had briefly).
The M2's I listened to were great, very dynamic and great imagining, but I have gone away from amps
with fans etc, I do most of my listening at night these days and the fans in amps are definitely something I can do without.
That's if I went done the crown pro amp route with the M2. I really want to stay with my Bryston electronics and up grade the speakers only.
I am trying to get over the other side of Australia so I can listen to a pair of the K2s, they are number 1 on my list pending the sound.
thanks again.

[sebackman]

Hi retromick.

There is no problem using your Bryston amps with M2. Get a used BSS DSP unit and all JBL settings are available in the form of a downloadable macro or use the discrete DSP settings table available here on LH.

I auditioned the M2's back-when in the JBL flag store in NYC with Mark Levinson amps and a BSS DSP. They were side-by-side with a pair of Levison bi-amped 67000. That was a nice afternoon.

It is not likely that the M2 setting specifically made for the BSS DSP will provide exactly the same output from a different processor. I have found that different processor does not output the same curve with identical settings and signal identical input.

Most likely they can be tweaked to deliver the same output but it would have to be the result of measuring and comparing with the correct factory curve. Doable but time consuming. Some algorithms are probably identical to the BSS, but I have not seen any "list" on that.

The BSS DSP's do have some nasty sounding fans but they can easily be replaced with silent ones or removed for domestic use. There is a thread here on LH regarding that topic alone.

I would argue that the newer BSS DSP's are "inaudible" and good enough out of the box, but if you want to take it to the next level you can get a BSS unit with digital input cards and digital output cards. This would omit any AD/DA conversions and you can use your preferred DA.

You can feed digital data in SPDIF or AES/EBU from you favorite platform direct to the DSP.

The buildable BSS chassis (BLU160 & BLU800) had 4 card slots and each card can hold 4 balanced analogue or digital channels, so 16 channels all in all for one chassis. Several chassis can be daisy chained for more channels or distribution.

In a multi-way speaker I would recommend the looking Okto Research 8-channel DAC unit. It may well be the best multi-channel DA on the planet at this point and reasonable priced. It does include a 8-channel volume control and is remote ready.

Okto Research (https://www.oktoresearch.com/dac8pro.htm)

Here is a review of the stereo version. Brilliant DAC to combine with any digital USB source.

Okto dac8 stereo DAC Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/okto-dac8-stereo-dac-review.14705/)

Such combo will be very difficult to beat.

Regarding M2 vs K2, the M2 is 100 by 100 degrees dissipation which is fine a a treated studio but may not be suitable for all domestic rooms. I would guess that the K2's are easier to integrate at home. (maybe you have a treated room and then none of this matters)

I also agree with Widget on preferring the 4" drivers so right now we are building a 4367 clone with a 4" driver and DSP. We will see how that pans out and it will be interesting to compare them to the M2's.

I guess that the bigger diaphragm of the 4" may allow them to go a little lower and in a 2-way setup with a big 15" that needs to be crossed below break-up and beaming that extra low-end capability is helpful.

A limitation of the 4" drivers is that the Titanium diaphragm's are not very suitable for HiFi which prompted the use of exotic materials like Mg and Be. Those are sonically excellent, but do fall off in the topp-end. I think that is what prompted JBL to use UHF units in the K2 series (if not marketing).

In a DSP setup you can easily boost the top-end in the 4" driver but I found using a 045 UHF gave more enjoyable solution (don't really know why, beaming?). Hence, even being on a fully active DSP system I still use UHF over my 4" Be's (on M2 wave guides).

The compromise is using SL diaphragms in the 4" drivers and that is what I do in most cases now. They sound wonderful and can easily go to 20k without the need for a UHF.

SL is now "old" technology and JBL could not sell such combo in the K2 price range, hence exotic material to some extent. I find the difference between Be and SL very small and clearly acceptable as a 2-way is much easier to get right.

If you go the K2 route it may be interesting to find out how Mr. Timbers runs his S9900, as they are run fully DSP active. That should be a killer combo.

Disregarding the price difference and visual appearance, they are both are killer speakers and truly end-game investments.

Kind regards
//Rob

[jblnut]

For 1/10th the price the 4760 is worth a listen if you can get away with its world-class anti-WAF looks :-). I heard the K2-S9900 recently and came away somewhat unimpressed after 2 years of 4670 ownership. Most of us can't hear over 15k anyway so the lack of a tweeter is moot.

The 4" compression driver and dual 15's will redefine dynamics for you. The musicians are IN THE ROOM like no other speaker I've heard. And the resolution is just uncanny.

I still use an old analog electronic xover as I felt the modern digital units (and their necessary AD-DA steps) lose something as compared to an all analog unit.


jblnut

[Fitero]

Ears (listening impressions) seem to be varied. When my buddy listened to my M2s, he quickly sold his K2S9900s and bought a pair for himself.

[BMWCCA]

For 1/10th the price the 4760 is worth a listen if you can get away with its world-class anti-WAF looks :-). I heard the K2-S9900 recently and came away somewhat unimpressed after 2 years of 4670 ownership. Most of us can't hear over 15k anyway so the lack of a tweeter is moot.
So, which is it? 4670 or 4760? ;)

[jblnut]

Take your pick - any of these are endgame speakers for most folks. Even the uber rare 4760 :-)

jblnut

[Robh3606]

I also agree with Widget on preferring the 4" drivers so right now we are building a 4367 clone with a 4" driver and DSP. We will see how that pans out and it will be interesting to compare them to the M2's.


The compromise is using SL diaphragms in the 4" drivers and that is what I do in most cases now. They sound wonderful and can easily go to 20k without the need for a UHF.

//Rob


Hello Rob

The 2216ND in combination with a 4" driver is excellent! You won't be disappointed. Agree on the SL's. Use a pair in my HT mains and they sound great!

Rob :)

[jblguy]

It seems any time I've ever heard a bigger mid range horn it sounds better. If done correctly of course.
No wonder those Western Electric guys love those jumbo floor horns. They must sound incredible!

There is just something about a big horn and 4 inch driver that seems to works well. As said by others here as well.
I use 3 2360's in my best setup. You can literally stick your head in those horns and hear very little really. They seem to project so well. It's kind of weird actually. It sounds like nothing is coming out of them even if you stand directly in front on them. It's an odd effect. I don't use them for much as I crossover into a set of big 2395 slant plates as the next speaker in the 5 way setup.
I've often wanted hear or get the bigger JBL horns with the 3 inch exit driver. The 2490H
Anybody ever hear that on the 2393 or 2394 or 2392 horns?

[Ian Mackenzie]

Paul Klipschorn who was arguable one if the founding fathers of hi end audio wrote a page in his famous journal that raising efficiency = lower distortion.

All things being equal no arguments there. Even some subtle heating of a voice coil in testing can effect measurements according to Greg Timbers.

However, what JBL has done in recent times is to trade some efficiency for higher power handling with longer voice coils and acquaplas doped pulp cones. There are privately held views that these contemporary drivers are not as fast as the light weight paper cones used in earlier drivers. What that means is the mass at the apex of the cone and the voice coil acts to stink the vibrations from the voice coil and the cone as stored energy. The effect is a blurring of the cone vibrations. It’s quite audible in the 2235H driver.

There is a 35 gram mass ring attached to apex of 2235 cone. Remove it and it transforms the 2235 into a 2234 which has vastly improved midrange resolution. Making a driver work better in a less large box is not always a smart thing. There are trade offs. The devil is in the detail and JBL don’t really disclose much on the cone structures, the geometry, pulp mix ect.

[jfine]

K2's hands down.

I know what I'm going to say is unpopular, but what the ell.

Lose all the cheap crappy internal wire/inductors/resistors/capacitors, and the circuit board with the super cheap biamp switch where most all the bass/mid signal travels thru, etc. Just take out the boards and save in case a purist wants to buy the speakers later.

Build new xover boards with top quality parts, not dayton, solens, etc. caps, but jupiter, miflex, sonicaps. Copper foil 12 gauge inductors on the bass circuit. Solen inductors for the mid/tweet boards. You'll have to buy larger values for most of the inductors and have someone unwind to proper value. Neotech and/or cardas solid copper wire if possible. You don't need 16 gauge wire for the tweeter board like they did. Use the correct part for the job vs. shotgunning the whole project using the same caps, wire. Contact GR Research or SonicCraft. (no affiliation). But be prepared to spend $$$. Later can also get rid of the nasty insulation and use blackhole5 or the like, but that takes experimentation.

Then you'll have a bad ass speaker. JBL did a great job on the drivers, cabinet, xover design. But as usual, they use the cheapest xover parts. Electrolytics on the bass board, using a diode to emulate the 9V charge. In fact, some resistors on my mid board were way out of spec. C'mon. I know lots of folks like charge coupled solens. Not me. IMO that sound is just the sound of doubling up the caps, the 9V charge is barely audible. Or they go down the biamp route cause they're not happy. I've been down the biamp road too. Oh sure there's transparency, clarity, presence, impress your friends, but using top parts in the K2 passive design, the musicality cannot be beaten. IME. IMO. If a flunky like me can do it...

[Ian Mackenzie]

I think the main thing is your journey has worked out.

In diy you don’t have commercial constraints and your wallet is the only limit. If it makes you happy then do it.

Like anything you can do a good job or a crap job.

Quite a while back l went right into the whole crossover thingy and did a thread on upgrading the legacy 43XX. I went and compared Solen, Mundorf supreme solve & oil, Auri caps, Clarity Caps, blended caps, binding posts. Bypassing the freaking bi amp switch and the wire.

The problem is people know you don’t mix bright sounding caps and power amps with metal dome tweeters. But they are oblivious that a compression driver has a metal diaphragm. Same with your source and electronics. Huh those horns sound bad. Huh those drivers sound bad. They swap things without any validation like a proper measurement with REW or Clio. Not an RTA please. And they go well that’s better or they chuck the whole mess on E bay and start over.

I won’t elaborate here but what did and didn’t make a difference was quite interesting. I could measure the real problem areas. AC Current needs a good contact area. Shall l say more. It’s a multi disciplinary skill to get it all working. On a good day a Ferrari is a joy to drive. On a bad day they are a bitch to drive.

More recently l have been out in the swamps in interesting places like Hong Kong, LA, and dealing with people in India and Berlin. A lot if it comes down to having a consistent approach and being very thorough. Assumptions are a fools paradise and a wise man’s hell. Sometimes the drivers are not matched or ones out of spec. Or there is a wiring mistake. It will drive you nuts if don’t know it’s the driver. Very precise measurements to match LH and RH systems and driver levels are critical. I match within 0.5 db. The difference is gobsmacking.

Some people with all the money in the world have no idea how to set up an Everest 67000 and what’s more they don’t care. But they moan like a princess and blame everyone else. It’s a first world problem.

It’s the attenuation to detail that is largely what you pay for with hi end
audio. There’s no magic. It’s all hard work but very worthwhile once you’ve done it.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Rob -sebackman knows what he’s talking about.

[Robh3606]

Rob -sebackman knows what he’s talking about.

Did someone say he doesn't?? I certainly did not?? What are you talking about??

Rob:)

[Ian Mackenzie]

Did someone say he doesn't?? I certainly did not?? What are you talking about??

Rob:)

Hello Rob,

Your reading too much into my post. It’s on the verge of censorship.

Calm down.

My post and l was an acknowledgment and admiration to Rob S.

Rob does not post often and this post delivers so much valuable information, the facts. Rob is always very helpful.

This is a general information thread. Not an argument.

I am allowed to say what l said. I don’t need to elaborate to satisfy your negativity . Any won is allow you comment freely.

Cool your jet’s alright.

Edit: one of the reasons l have posted prolifically is to give people something else to think about other than what is happening around the country. It’s not about bringing your angst here. Got it.

An Australian citizen was shot dead in her nature strip un armed by a cop who needlessly panicked and the case is being heard by her family. Your. needlessly panicking. Let that sink in.

[Robh3606]

Hello Ian

I am just fine and calm. Thanks for the clarification. Sorry to hear about the shooting.

Rob :)

[Titanium Dome]

hey guys,
been a while since I have posted, I am preparing my 4435's for sale and looking to by my end game speakers.
I have an opportunity to purchase the M2 or K2 at a reasonable price.
I have Bryston amplification and also have a pair of Sub-18 clones with Crown amplification.
I would like to hear from you guys on your opinions of both.
I have spent time with the M2,s but not the K2s9900.
Thoughts?

thanks in advance
Mick

I'd say the end game depends on your final destination. Since I have both M2s and K2S9900s, I'm able to put them in different destinations according to 1) the media I expect to use, 2) the size of the space, 3) the ability/inability to treat the environment, and 4) the specific tolerances granted by Annie, who, just for the record, is pretty tolerant but not a pushover.


Thus, the K2s are fine to put on public display in the great/kitchen/dining/entry mega room of about 10,000 cubic feet. She likes the looks that match the general palette of the room, loves the sound, and likes the ease of operation. Actively bi-amped with BSS 366T compact omnidrive speaker management units and ATI 3-channel amps, they work with two S2S subs to effortlessly fill the entire space with exceptional sound. Designer Greg Timbers, who actively bi-amps his own K2s, has heard them and validated the active bi-amp and sub augmentation. This is clearly and truly a two-channel system whose focus is solely on reproducing music as accurately and beautifully as possible in a large volume space.


She appreciates the M2s for their amazing sound fidelity, so much so that she bought us a JVC NX7 to get comparable video quality. But she’s not so much into the looks. In the “movie room,” they form the L-C-R front stage behind an acoustically transparent screen. The tunings are provided by an SDEC 4500P (rebranded BSS unit) which feeds multiple channels of two five-channel Fosgate Audionics (Hafler trans•nova) fanless amps. Augmented by JBL’s S1S-EX 18” subs, they provide the theatrical atmosphere and dynamics that make movies come to life. They can also animate live concert material to a level that gives me that “you are there” experience without the pickpockets, smokers, beer drinkers, and fondlers that make live concerts so special. It’s probably a sixties flashback, but I’d swear I can smell some sweet leaf when I listen to live concerts, and with the M2s I can have the ringing post-concert ears if I’m not careful.


So, what’s your destination? If it’s glorious two-channel music that runs the gamut from Acapella to acoustic to Baroque to classical to country to dance to electronic trance to jazz to rock to soul to trap—or even K-pop, and you want it to fill your house, then the K2 is the one for you.


If it’s the subtle rustle of a step on leaves to a whispered secret to a blaring alarm to a massive explosion that thumps your chest, flaps your pant legs, and makes you wonder if a truck hit your house, all in immersive, full environmental sonic reality, then the M2 is your baby.


You can find a large number of specs, tests, white papers, and opinions about both of these fine loudspeakers. Read up, if you’d like. This comment is my completely subjective response to your question, based on my experience with my equipment in my home using my preferences and my ears.


Best of luck in making your decision. I hope you get to the right destination for you.

n.b., I've had the K2s for more than a decade, and the M2s for six years.

[Ian Mackenzie]

hey guys,
been a while since I have posted, I am preparing my 4435's for sale and looking to by my end game speakers.
I have an opportunity to purchase the M2 or K2 at a reasonable price.
I have Bryston amplification and also have a pair of Sub-18 clones with Crown amplification.
I would like to hear from you guys on your opinions of both.
I have spent time with the M2,s but not the K2s9900.
Thoughts?

thanks in advance
Mick

Hi Mick,

Are your buying new or second hand.

It depends on a few things. Are you on a nirvana journey going all out (thinking cap customer) or a plug it in and it goes customer?
If your hands on and want to mould your system then the M2 could be your answer. But it needs a lot of user effort to set it up as its a pro product.

The S9900 is an excellent hi end consumer system out of the box and you can drain the nirvana nth degree out of it with active mode operation and subs.
If you want you could add one of the new DEQX products and leap frog to Mars with DSP correction and full active mode with subs. That would be very cool. And you can arrange local support from the experts at DEQX to set it up right.

On the subjective side you could give the guys at Klapp AV in Melbourne a call and pick their brains. They have/had the S9900 on the floor and would be upfront on what your going to enjoy.
They are a Synthesis dealer. You could also call Steve Varga at the Audio Experts in Melbourne. Steve is an installer and a jBL Synthesis dealer. Mention my name and he may oblige with a top deal.

Personally, I'm only familiar with the S9900. There is a tendency for the dealers to steer customers towards the consumer systems like the S3900 and above than the M2.
The M2 brings with it a lot of control. But its more complicated to set up and there's the fan noise if you buy a M2 pro package.

Hence my tip to plan for the S9900 with a DEQX processor at some point in your journey.

[Mr. Widget]

I'd say the end game depends on your final destination. Since I have both M2s and K2S9900s...

Great to hear from you and to get your perspective. How great is it to have these choices?!


Widget

[retromick]

Great to hear from you and to get your perspective. How great is it to have these choices?!


Widget
hey Mr Widget
sorry for the late response, I suffered a heart attack and now dealing with covid, im looking at the responses now
Mick

[Mr. Widget]

I suffered a heart attack and now dealing with covid, im looking at the responses nowGeez, you know how to have fun. Get better soon!


Widget

[retromick]

Geez, you know how to have fun. Get better soon!


Widget
I know right, that's just the beginning, while I was away for work, (before my Heart attack), my Apartment
was damaged in a storm, When I returned home, one of my 4435's had been damaged, thankfully my insurance
company has given me a budget to replace them, (policy was new for old), I have decided to go with the K2 S9900.
I have found a demo pair out of the country at the right price, we are working through the deal now. God willing it goes through,
I watched the interviews with Erin and GT, I will purchase a DEQX pre and maybe a quality valve amp for the top end,
If this doesn't scratch my itch, I will go golfing!

[retromick]

Hi all thanks so much for your valuable input, I'm hoping to get the K2's across the line in a few days, fingers crossed!

[retromick]

Hi Mick,

Are your buying new or second hand.

It depends on a few things. Are you on a nirvana journey going all out (thinking cap customer) or a plug it in and it goes customer?
If your hands on and want to mould your system then the M2 could be your answer. But it needs a lot of user effort to set it up as its a pro product.

The S9900 is an excellent hi end consumer system out of the box and you can drain the nirvana nth degree out of it with active mode operation and subs.
If you want you could add one of the new DEQX products and leap frog to Mars with DSP correction and full active mode with subs. That would be very cool. And you can arrange local support from the experts at DEQX to set it up right.

On the subjective side you could give the guys at Klapp AV in Melbourne a call and pick their brains. They have/had the S9900 on the floor and would be upfront on what your going to enjoy.
They are a Synthesis dealer. You could also call Steve Varga at the Audio Experts in Melbourne. Steve is an installer and a jBL Synthesis dealer. Mention my name and he may oblige with a top deal.

Personally, I'm only familiar with the S9900. There is a tendency for the dealers to steer customers towards the consumer systems like the S3900 and above than the M2.
The M2 brings with it a lot of control. But its more complicated to set up and there's the fan noise if you buy a M2 pro package.

Hence my tip to plan for the S9900 with a DEQX processor at some point in your journey.


Hi Ian, If you look at my latest post you see my misfortune and subsequent insurance claim, good news My insurance company has agreed to my claim this morning
I will be receiving a demo pair of K2's out of the UK in a few weeks hopefully the price in Australia is a joke, I have spoken to the WA dealer for DEQX, when they release the new pre processors
I will purchase one and then look for a nice valve amp for the tops! I will still use My Bryston 7Bs for the bottom end,
thanks for your input
Mick

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hi Mick,

We look forward to your next update.

Ian

[retromick]

Hi Mick,

We look forward to your next update.

Ian
Hey Ian
deal done!
got a demo pair out of the UK!
saved about $20k
I also ordered a new Bryston 4B3 power amp
and Bryston BR20 pre-amp
also ordered about $6k in leads

[speakerdave]

I enjoyed the humor, but the photo made me dizzy.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Everything is upside down in the Southern Hemisphere

[DerekTheGreat]

You guys are funny.

So, how do those sound compared to the 4435's??? I own the 4435's stablemate, the 813C. So naturally I have always been curious about 4435's, more so now that I've got 813C's.