Beranek's Law

[Mr. Widget]

“It has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else's loudspeaker.”

[BMWCCA]

A fascinating biography: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Beranek

[rusty jefferson]

Are we to assume you have confirmed this law of nature, or are questioning it's validity?

[Mr. Widget]

Are we to assume you have confirmed this law of nature, or are questioning it's validity?Is there any question in your mind? It is my belief we see it confirmed daily here and on other DIY sites. :D


Widget

[rusty jefferson]

None whatsoever. You must have had a good listening session last night. :)

[Mr. Widget]

None whatsoever. You must have had a good listening session last night. :)Ah, I see where you’re headed.

I have heard too many great speakers to fool myself into thinking my creations are the best there is. Satisfactory perhaps, and in my case that is a very high bar, but the best? Nope.


Widget

[toddalin]

Ah, I see where you’re headed.

I have heard too many great speakers to fool myself into thinking my creations are the best there is. Satisfactory perhaps, and in my case that is a very high bar, but the best? Nope.


Widget

Same here.

BTW, I use BBN all the time for construction noise when I do noise studies for development.

https://images.bwbcovers.com/047/Noise-and-Vibration-Control-Engineering-Beranek-Leo-L-9780471617518.jpg

https://books.google.com/books/about/Noise_and_Vibration_Control_Engineering.html?id=Tq 31I0ZO2WAC

[Ian Mackenzie]

“It has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else's loudspeaker.”




That notion is hardly exclusive to diy loudspeakers.

Its part of anything diy because "I made it myself".

That's why I subscribe to building a clone as do many others.

The fact is the diy builder of anything only knows what he knows. But it's the unknown unknowns that differentiate him or her from a commercial product of any reputation in the majority of cases.

In a commercial product there are nominally a lot of resources including highly training human resources to make objective investigations which lead to key decisions in the design of a product and how its manufactured.

I find it quite amusing the number of Black Hats congregating in the Hi End Sound Preproduction business who proclaim they are gifted to make judgments because they have heard many good loudspeakers...LOL.

They are there to line their own pockets and those of manufacturers by influencing consumer purchasing decisions.

That has always has been the case and always will be. It's being going on since the day before Christ was borne.

[Mannermusic]

That notion is hardly exclusive to diy loudspeakers.

Its part of anything diy because "I made it myself".

That's why I subscribe to building a clone as do many others.

The fact is the diy builder of anything only knows what he knows. But it's the unknown unknowns that differentiate him or her from a commercial product of any reputation in the majority of cases.

In a commercial product there are nominally a lot of resources including highly training human resources to make objective investigations which lead to key decisions in the design of a product and how its manufactured.

I find it quite amusing the number of Black Hats congregating in the Hi End Sound Preproduction business who proclaim they are gifted to make judgments because they have heard many good loudspeakers...LOL.

They are there to line their own pockets and those of manufacturers by influencing consumer purchasing decisions.

That has always has been the case and always will be. It's being going on since the day before Christ was borne.


Vanity destroys everything in its path. The bane of human existence.

[Robh3606]

That notion is hardly exclusive to diy loudspeakers.

Its part of anything diy because "I made it myself".

That's why I subscribe to building a clone as do many others.

Or have a good reference speaker on hand you can compare too. I use a pair or Revel F206's as my yardstick. I have no illusion's my DIY stuff is the best but it doesn't have to be. In the end aside from the fun of doing the design, building and trouble shooting it just has to make me happy.

No matter what personal satisfaction is what we are all after.

Rob:)

[toddalin]

In my case my reference speakers are the modified L200/300s, and it took me lots of tries to make something as good, and far more attempts to make something sound better.

But there it is.

I do have lots of other good reference speakers also in use including the LS3/5As, L112s, and the studio-based, triamped, Big Red Supers. And I've listened to Harbeths and Magicos.

[toddalin]

Also don't forget..., the room is a big part of the equation.

If one designs speakers in a specific room, using the appropriate measurement equipment, and lots of listening, couldn't one design a speaker that works better in that room than a mass produced speaker made to perform in an anechoic chamber..., if that? :hmm:

[Mr. Widget]

...couldn't one design a speaker that works better in that room than a mass produced speaker made to perform in an anechoic chamber..., if that? :hmm:Define better.

Actually I think Dr. Barenek's Law was a bit tongue in cheek. But to your point and his, if a semi competent person designs a speaker for their own room, it will likely please that person more than a substantially more accurate system designed by someone else.


Widget

[toddalin]

Define better.

Actually I think Dr. Barenek's Law was a bit tongue in cheek. But to your point and his, if a semi competent person designs a speaker for their own room, it will likely please that person more than a substantially more accurate system designed by someone else.


Widget

Flatter frequency response across the band (or voiced to taste) in that room because the peaks and dips of the room are taken into account in the design and at least partially mitigated in the final product.

[Mr. Widget]

Flatter frequency response across the band (or voiced to taste) in that room because the peaks and dips of the room are taken into account in the design and at least partially mitigated in the final product.I assume that is your definition of a better speaker.

Of course at a base level I think we would all agree with your statement, but actually I disagree with your it as a blanket answer... and I think you will agree with me once you read my answer.

I think most of us DIYers have discovered that adding too much correction (to flatten the response curve) will crush the sound and make the speaker less enjoyable to listen to. I have seen this happen with passive networks and filters, analog EQ and DSP. Too much of a good thing stops being a good thing. So no, simply having a flatter speaker does not necessarily make it a better one.


Widget

[toddalin]

I assume that is your definition of a better speaker.

Of course at a base level I think we would all agree with your statement, but actually I disagree with your it as a blanket answer... and I think you will agree with me once you read my answer.

I think most of us DIYers have discovered that adding too much correction (to flatten the response curve) will crush the sound and make the speaker less enjoyable to listen to. I have seen this happen with passive networks and filters, analog EQ and DSP. Too much of a good thing stops being a good thing. So no, simply having a flatter speaker does not necessarily make it a better one.


Widget

... Which is why we start from there and "voice to taste." But you can't do that if someone has already voiced it to their taste in a different setting.

[Mr. Widget]

... Which is why we start from there and "voice to taste." But you can't do that if someone has already voiced it to their taste in a different setting.Agreed. If a speaker doesn’t suit your space or taste, it probably can’t be fixed, but I think you missed my point.


Widget

[toddalin]

Agreed. If a speaker doesn’t suit your space or taste, it probably can’t be fixed, but I think you missed my point.


Widget

...The point being???

I think we all know that nobody can get a speaker to play "flat" in any kind of a real world setting without the use of eq. And even then, you won't get there. :crying:

But if you design the speakers in the room where you can play with their placement as they will ultimately sit and can "tame" the peaks and valleys you are much better off than leaving these variences in place. This can often be done through crossover design/frequency overlap.

Also, while a flat frequency response may not account for "voicing," and may sound "flat," the major players are all aware that a flat response below ~300-500 Hz is the goal and voicing is handled in the upper registers above this.

[engineerjoe]

Hey!
( now from the idiot in the room)

I like to just cram in some big stuff and let it idle. Playing smaller drivers too loud crushes my senses.
So my ideal, is towards having more and using it less.
Then, cranking it up when the spirit moves me! :D
To those people that have the JBL 2" drivers with 4" diaphragms in their living room.....
I salute you!!
:applaud:

[Mr. Widget]

...The point being???
Many of us, and I assumed you had also experienced this, have experienced that when you measure the response of a speaker and you dial in too many filters to achieve a curve that looks beautiful the sound starts to lose its “life”. Leaving a few “imperfections” in there with fewer and less extreme filters will sound better.

On a parallel topic, it is extremely difficult to make meaningful measurements that replicate what our ears perceive in a given room. Omnidirectional laboratory microphones simply do not record sound the way we hear sound. Taking multiple measurements in numerous locations and summing them will get much closer to what we hear, but this too is an approximation.


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

But if you design the speakers in the room where you can play with their placement as they will ultimately sit and can "tame" the peaks and valleys you are much better off than leaving these variences in place. This can often be done through crossover design/frequency overlap.
In theory yes, but you still need to be able to get good measurements. See my previous post. Also passive filters while very useful are generally pretty broad strokes adjustments.


Widget

[Robh3606]

In theory yes, but you still need to be able to get good measurements. See my previous post. Also passive filters while very useful are generally pretty broad strokes adjustments.


Widget

Hello Widget

Yes they sure are compared to what is possible with DSP. It's all low Q stuff in comparison just look at what the M2 DSP does and imagine trying to do that with a passive network!

I agree on your previous point in some cases leaving the warts ends up sounding better.


Rob:)

[Ian Mackenzie]

It’s a mishmash of art and science.

The art is making it sound acceptable in the desired consumer living room. The science is in designing and manufacturing the loudspeaker to be an acceptable size and shape at a price point.

In today’s world most respected consumer floor standing loudspeaker manufacturers end up empirically voicing the loudspeaker in a range of domestic living spaces and ask the user to follow recommendations for placement.

Long gone is the notion of a QB3 tuning to 32 hertz like the legacy jbl monitors for consumers. The consumers just don’t need they kind of power out at 32 hertz. They use a sub for that if needed.

These slim consumer tower loudspeakers are tuned with one or more 6 1/2 to 7 1/2 inch woofers to deliver a relatively smooth response when placed one or two feet from the rear wall which falls off quickly below 35 hertz.

In comparison the JBL legacy monitors have a significant 10db lift in the bass response below 100 hertz when modelled with Jeff Bagley’s Room modelling Excel spread sheet.

As to the response above 1000 hertz some manufacturers account for domestic living rooms with large flat reflective surfaces by putting a broad dip here and a broad bump somewhere else in the frequency response. This gives the impression the loudspeaker has a certain character which the target market like.

The target market buy that loudspeaker and they are happy.

Think of the west coast sound versus east coast sound of the 70’s.
JBL were regarded as a more forward and bass heavy sound than AR’s more reserved sound. It’s hardly surprising because apartments in NY had much smaller living rooms than the mansions in Palm Springs that were home to the Texas bookshelf (JBL 4350 and large Bozak systems).

A ruler flat loudspeaker can sound hard in the above settings where it’s has a constant power response because the reverberation time in the mid and high frequencies is insufficient to absorb the total sound power or power response. It comes down to the constant directivity arc angle. The consumer Bi radial systems had limited arc angles between 60-80 degrees. Not 100 degrees or more like the M2 which is used in control rooms with pre determined reverberation time and absorption of wall surfaces.

Non CD Loudspeaker are not as prone to this issue because the power response arc angle tends to narrow with increasing frequency. So less sound power is being sprayed around the room. It’s not surprising that consumer loudspeakers which are non CD by design are subjectively more acceptable than wide arc angle CD designs in a consumer living room as described above.