JBL 4430 Speakers

[Dave 2021]

Greetings,

I am a new member here and I wanted to apologize up front for posting something that has probably been discussed many times already. Seems that I can't quite get the hang of the search engine on this forum. Basically, I bought a pair of 4430's and really have been enjoying them. They are not perfect but do a lot of things right, almost to the point of being magical. I have made some minor tweaks that seemed to make a difference (deoxing the bi amp switch on the crossover board and replacing the speaker wire terminals with gold plated binding posts) and now am contemplating upgrading some of the internal crossover components. Would it be worth it to upgrade the iron core 2.5 mH inductor for the woofer with a good air core inductor? I was able to find the network diagram here on this forum but the diagram does not list the DCR for any of the inductors. Anyone here know those values? I have replaced iron core inductors with air core inductors on other speakers and there was not a gigantic difference. I just wonder since the 4430's cross over at 1000 Hz. Also, I was thinking about replacing the .01 uF bypass caps with some sonicaps. I really don't want to go the route of bi amping, charge coupling or using external crossovers. The sound to my ears is actually very good, I just wanted to try some relatively inexpensive but effective ways to get them sounding even better. The real question is that after I post this, will I be able to find the responses (if any) in the forum!

Thanks,

Dave

[BMWCCA]

Greetings,

I am a new member here and I wanted to apologize up front for posting something that has probably been discussed many times already. Seems that I can't quite get the hang of the search engine on this forum.
Welcome.

Basically, it is better to use Google Advanced Search using "audioheritage.org" as the search domain.

This thread might help you: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?34407-Recapping-4430s

[Dave 2021]

Thank you for kindly directing me to the relevant posts with very good information. Geez, I had no idea the 4430 had mylar caps. After reading, I have decided that the best route is to go ahead and make a new network a bit at a time and leave the stock one in in case I ever sell. The charged coupled crossover has me very interested and I will probably go that route. I believe I read somewhere that when charge coupling, you can get by with less expensive poly caps with good results. Dayton makes a 1 % tolerance poly cap that I have had good results with in the past. I guess Hovland's are no longer available and Sonicaps can get a bit expensive. Would it be correct to assume that bypass capacitors are not needed when charge coupling? And then there is still the question of the DC resistance for the inductors. Perhaps it is not a big deal but I remember reading an article by Gregg Timbers at this site discussing improving the network for the 4345 and he mentioned it would be best to match the DCR of the existing inductors if replacing. The same logic would apply to the 4430's. I am assuming someone has posted a network diagram with charge coupled caps somewhere and hopefully bypassing the L-pads.

[Dave 2021]

I love my JBL 4430 speakers. All I wanted to do is try to improve them if possible. All the post about charge coupled crossovers or anything are really just arguments. Really hard to discern if there is any useful information to be found here. If anything, I asked just one question if anyone here knew the DCR of a 2.6 mH iron core inductor in a 4430 crossover (revision H), and nobody responded or nobody cares or nobody knows. I guess this information is proprietary or something and you have to go to an outside source to get suggestions on what works or not. Or I guess that the 4430's are subpar to the whole JBL crowd. Thanks again for all your help.

[Mr. Widget]

..and nobody responded or nobody cares or nobody knows.There are probably folks here that do know or could find out, but unfortunately the two folks who would have had that info burned into their brains are no longer posting, one passed away and the other has moved on to other interests.

Be patient and perhaps someone else will be able to step up.


Widget

[Earl K]

Some regulars might not even see this thread > since it's so misplaced and visually buried down in the roll-call .

Normally when one owns the actual part needing a spec ( like the 2.6mH coil in question here ) it's best to simply measure it for ones-self ( un-solder one end first to take it out of the circuit ).

:)

[Ian Mackenzie]

Thank you for kindly directing me to the relevant posts with very good information. Geez, I had no idea the 4430 had mylar caps. After reading, I have decided that the best route is to go ahead and make a new network a bit at a time and leave the stock one in in case I ever sell. The charged coupled crossover has me very interested and I will probably go that route. I believe I read somewhere that when charge coupling, you can get by with less expensive poly caps with good results. Dayton makes a 1 % tolerance poly cap that I have had good results with in the past. I guess Hovland's are no longer available and Sonicaps can get a bit expensive. Would it be correct to assume that bypass capacitors are not needed when charge coupling? And then there is still the question of the DC resistance for the inductors. Perhaps it is not a big deal but I remember reading an article by Gregg Timbers at this site discussing improving the network for the 4345 and he mentioned it would be best to match the DCR of the existing inductors if replacing. The same logic would apply to the 4430's. I am assuming someone has posted a network diagram with charge coupled caps somewhere and hopefully bypassing the L-pads.

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/cheap-and-pretty-easy-jbl-4430-upgrade.537606/

Jbl don’t bypass the Solen 250v Fast Caps in the charge coupled crossovers. I would not recommend other caps without experimentation.

The woofer coil dcr is 0.5 ohms or less.
The horn crossover coil is 0.5 ohms. The small coil is 0.2 ohms.

I recommend you use air core inductor.

The Lpads are required for adjustment of the horn midrange level and HT is extension.

Simply double the capacitors values and wire them in series for charge coupled operation. Use 3 Meg ohm resistor from the junction of the two capacitors to a 9 volt battery and return the crossover ground to the negative terminal of the battery.

I have used Hovland capacitors quite successfully in this design. The caveat is your power amplifier, preamp and source need to be of premium quality such as a Parasound to experience the benefits of these capacitors.



There are other modifications such as removing the 2235H mass ring and re optimising the passive network for improved midrange clarity and some electrical bass boost at 30 hertz. The mass ring as the name suggests adds mass to the cone of about 35 grams to optimise the bass performance in small enclosures. However this impacts on the midrange clarity above 500 hertz. It’s quite audible wh we n compared to the larger 4435 which used the 2234H driver variant without the mass ring.

[Mr. Widget]

Some regulars might not even see this thread > since it's so misplaced and visually buried down in the roll-call .Good point... I didn't even pay attention to that. I'll move it.


Widget

[Dave 2021]

Thanks Ian, Mr. Widget and Earl for you response. As mentioned earlier, I really love the sound of the 4430's. I am powering with Emotiva XPA -1 Generation 2 600 watt mono blocks and Direc Live room correction software. Not even close to being on the higher end of amplification but they measure well and sound pretty good to my ear. I spoke with a the owner of Sonic Craft, Jeff, and he wanted me to send him the crossover board, do his own measurements and then recommend what would sound best. He said foil inductors would be best for the woofers, but I mentioned that the dcr would not match and would change the sonic signature of the speaker. He got really angry when I asked him to give me a ballpark figure and asked how he could fine tune a crossover without having the actual speaker and drivers. He also said he started making Sonicaps years ago because he said "Solen" caps are terrible. Anyway, I have recapped many speakers and replaced many resistors and inductors in my day sometimes with good effect, some times not so good. I know for a fact that I will never buy another sonicap in my life or anything from Sonic Craft! I actually found them to be a bit on the grainy etchy, critical side of things anyway. So Solens it is since they come recommended by JBL fans. I guess I still have a few questions remaining before I take the plunge and start work on the new crossover. One is, I actually think I like the sound of the existing caps which I have read on this forum are mylar. Percussion, triangles, high hats etc have a holographic "3D" presentation that just hang in the air. I really like that. If I go to a poly cap, I am worried that that effect will disappear. The other question being, air core or foil inductors. And if air core, should I go with a 16 gauge for the 2.5 mH, 18 gauge for the 1.6 and 22 gauge for the .04? I noticed that the existing .04 mH has some very thin wire. Also, I am planning on using a new board and bypassing the internal/external switch. If I do that, then is it correct that I can omit C7 and C8 from the high pass circuit? And one final thing for today. I had to replace the woofer cones. I checked into replacing with original C8R2235H oem JBL cones and they wanted $250 each. I was not able to do that. So instead I got some replacement cones (I can see someone cringe) from simplyspeakers and did the re cone myself (another cringe). What I noticed is that the cone, voice coil & voice coil former were lighter than the original. I still added the mass ring to make up for the weight loss. Being that is the case, would you still recommend removing the mass ring at this point? I actually think the cones sound very good for not being the originals. Thanks for not leaving me out in the dark, it is good to have speaker friends!

[Ian Mackenzie]

I guess I still have a few questions remaining before I take the plunge and start work on the new crossover. One is, I actually think I like the sound of the existing caps which I have read on this forum are mylar. Percussion, triangles, high hats etc have a holographic "3D" presentation that just hang in the air. I really like that. If I go to a poly cap, I am worried that that effect will disappear. The other question being, air core or foil inductors. And if air core, should I go with a 16 gauge for the 2.5 mH, 18 gauge for the 1.6 and 22 gauge for the .04? I noticed that the existing .04 mH has some very thin wire. Also, I am planning on using a new board and bypassing the internal/external switch. If I do that, then is it correct that I can omit C7 and C8 from the high pass circuit? And one final thing for today. I had to replace the woofer cones. I checked into replacing with original C8R2235H oem JBL cones and they wanted $250 each. I was not able to do that. So instead I got some replacement cones (I can see someone cringe) from simplyspeakers and did the re cone myself (another cringe). What I noticed is that the cone, voice coil & voice coil former were lighter than the original. I still added the mass ring to make up for the weight loss. Being that is the case, would you still recommend removing the mass ring at this point? I actually think the cones sound very good for not being the originals. Thanks for not leaving me out in the dark, it is good to have speaker friends!

1. Modern polypropylene caps are more transparent but they vary in price and quality. Mylar caps can sound muffled by comparison. Jbl bypassed the Mylar caps with small polypropylene caps to help reduce this effect back in the day.

If you decide on charge coupled use the Solen 250v fast caps. Do not bypass these caps in a charge coupled configuration.

If you decide on a single polypropylene capacitor steer clear of the bright sounding variety as you have titanium diaphragms and a modern digital amplifier. The Mundorf Evo Oil variety or the new Hovland caps or a Clarity Cap SA bypassed with a 0.01 uF Auricap. This works very well if you have a budget in mind.

Alternatively if you can do it use Auricaps on the woofer and ask Auricap with their chemically enhanced caps on the high pass filter and the compensation circuit.

2. On the inductors looking at the Parts Express online catalogue l suggest either of these for the woofer. The lower the dcr the better in this kind of low pass filter to help mitigate the voltage drop on the inductor during the box resonance and the upper impedance peak on the woofer in the bass reflex tuned enclosure. This puts a kink in the voltage drive below 100 hertz which is not ideal but is a consequence of passive networks. The difference in the dcr to the stock parts in the low pass woofer filter is negligible as this is swamped by the RC conjugate network.

The ERSE Super Q inductor has a very low dcr and won’t saturate.

https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-LW142-5-2.5mH-14-AWG-Perfect-Layer-Inductor-257-332

https://www.parts-express.com/ERSE-Super-Q-2.5mH-16-AWG-500W-Inductor-266-908

Go with the 18 gauge grade level for the 2.5 mH inductor and 20 gauge for the 0.04mH inductor.

3. Yes omit C7 and C8. These part are applicable to bi amp mode only.

4. Leave the mass rings in.

5. Other thoughts. Get some descent binding posts with plenty of surface area and replace the JBL posts on the rear terminal plate. In my experience a good binding termination with a quality spade is money well spent. The reliability of a termination is important as it it’s capacity to pass high current with even a small voltage drop. Your amplifiers are quite good and undoubtedly very dynamic and this is where l would spend some money. Use the ERSE Super Q inductor mentioned above to that effect. You should hear a tighter firmer bass.

Once you are satisfied with the balance obtained after adjustment of the Lpads. Take some measurements with the crossover disconnected with a multi meter and replace the Lpads with fixed resister values. They won’t necessarily charge the sonically but fixed resisters are more reliable.

Enjoy your project.

Ian

[Dave 2021]

Thanks Ian! The first thing I did was replace the binding posts with bigger gold plated ones. If I remember correctly, the stock posts were trying to pass all that voltage through a tiny aluminum screw connecting the posts with the internal wire loop connector. All I could think of was "skin effect" and current restriction. And yes, I noticed a fairly substantial difference after doing this. Where would you recommend I find Hovland caps? I am not a big fan of Sonic Craft which leaves Madison Sound and Parts Express. I know Parts Express has Solen's and they used to be fairly affordable. Any other places that you could recommend would be greatly appreciated. Also, I did not check your link for the Erse super Q inductors yet, (have used them before to good effect) but I don't think they make a 2.6 mH value. Would a 2.5 mH suffice? And where did you get the the cool 9 volt battery holder/connector? Sorry for all the questions, bit I am getting psyched about doing this!

[Ian Mackenzie]

You wil need to hunt around.

If you can’t find them use one of the other options l listed such as the Clarity cap SA bypassed with Auricap 0.01 uF. That is a proven combo.

2.5 mH is close enough.

You can buy direct from Solen.

You can Google the 9 volt battery holder

Mouser have them and possibly Parts Express.

What l suggest is you load up the parts list in Excel with some prices alternatives capacitors.

Then make a call on the way you wish to go.

[Dave 2021]

Sorry, I just have a few more questions. I ordered the inductors from parts express yesterday and I had to improvise with 18 gauge for the smallest inductor. Also, thanks for suggesting putting together a spread sheet to keep tabs on material cost! Is there a schematic anywhere that shows a charge coupled layout? I am assuming that each charge coupled capacitor circuit can be run back to one single 9v battery? Also would a 3.3 k ohm resistor work instead of the 3k ohm you recommended? https://www.parts-express.com/3.3K-Ohm-1W-Flameproof-Resistor-10-Pcs.-003-3.3K.

I am getting very excited about this project and thanks again for all of you time and help with this!

[Riley Casey]

The original suggestion was for a 3 Megaohm resistor as in three million ohms. 3k would be three thousand. DigiKey or Mouser will have carbon film resistors that will work. If they don't have that value you can series connect three one megaohm resistors to achieve 3M.


... Also would a 3.3 k ohm resistor work instead of the 3k ohm you recommended? https://www.parts-express.com/3.3K-Ohm-1W-Flameproof-Resistor-10-Pcs.-003-3.3K.

I am getting very excited about this project and thanks again for all of you time and help with this!

[Ian Mackenzie]

Sorry, I just have a few more questions. I ordered the inductors from parts express yesterday and I had to improvise with 18 gauge for the smallest inductor. Also, thanks for suggesting putting together a spread sheet to keep tabs on material cost! Is there a schematic anywhere that shows a charge coupled layout? I am assuming that each charge coupled capacitor circuit can be run back to one single 9v battery? Also would a 3.3 k ohm resistor work instead of the 3k ohm you recommended? https://www.parts-express.com/3.3K-Ohm-1W-Flameproof-Resistor-10-Pcs.-003-3.3K.

I am getting very excited about this project and thanks again for all of you time and help with this!


More questions? Seriously 😳.
I don’t think there is a schematic.
The 18 gauge is fine.
Only one 9 volt battery is required.

If you can arrange a bottle of Knob Creek Bourbon l will sort out a schematic and a wiring layout…Lol
I attended a Bourbon festival in Bardstown a few years back.

[toddalin]

I have found that the ClarityCaps have a bit darker sound than some of the others (Audyn Q4, Aerovox) that would probably work well with the titanium driver. They are also fairly cheap on ebay. But..., they are HUGE!

I think that you are overly concerned about the small differences in the dc resistance of the inductors. You also need to realize that an air core inductor will use much more wire than a slugged inductor so should up the wire gauge a bit from stock to compensate accordingly.

[Dave 2021]

Toddalin, thank you for pointing that out. I have no experience with smaller value resistors and I am chomping at the bit to get all the parts to get this project going. I was not familiar with a Mega Ohm resistor and failed to get the right google which said mega was 1000 instead of 3 million!. Anyway, I am fortunate enough to have people like you who can set me straight on the right resistor. Thank you for that my friend! Also, Ian, I would be happy to supply you with a bottle of Knob Creek. You mentioned you visited Bardstown, Kentucky awhile back? I actually now live in Kentucky having relocated from a bigger city several years ago. I live out in the country in a small town that has no traffic signals and I have some land and room to breathe. Come to think of it, I have room to let my JBL's breathe and can hit 100 dB's continuous with 110 dB peaks without bothering any neighbors. It can go louder without any harshness but I am trying to preserve my hearing (and my marriage). I wanted to upload a picture of my rig with the 18" subwoofer and 4430's but go figure, I can't figure out how to do that either yet. I think I can handle the wiring now that I know it all goes back to one battery. However, I was thinking, since I am doing this, I will separate the woofer crossover from the horn crossover and bi amp using the four posts on my amps, unless that is not recommended. If I do this then I would need (2) 9 volt batteries for each speakers independent hi/low networks? I am all ears and if you think keeping it all as one network then that is the way I will go. Now comes the final decision of caps. I have used Solen's in the past with Polk Audio signature SDA's, Bozak B4000 modern symphonies and ESS AMT-4 speakers. All to good effect. But, Clarity caps keep coming up. And if I do Clarity caps bypassed with Auricaps then that adds additional work. Plus, I am assuming you don't add the bypass caps to the charge coupled 9v battery, just add to either end of the coupled series caps at the far ends. Whew, my head started spinning on that one. So bottom line, can I get a great result with the Solen's or should I soldier on through and do the Clarity caps with bypass? I am willing to spend the extra money if it will get me to the world class sound that eagerly awaits! Also, thanks for your patience with all my questions!

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hi Dave,

If your power amp had 4 binding posts per channel then l think you are referring to what is termed “Bi - Wiring. This is where the full passive crossover is used but separate wires lead back to the power amplifier for the input to each low and hi pass filters

I would only consider this a virtue if you have longer than 2 metre cables to the loudspeakers. Short stout loudspeaker cables and high quality binding posts and spades with large contact area are important in ensuring you have a low contact resistance with hi current transfer across the contact area. It’s also reliable.

On the capacitors l would go with the Solen 250V Fast Caps and Charge Couple. Use a single battery if you are using a common power amplifier to each loudspeaker. You will most likely be very happy. If that option is unavailable to you consider the Clarity Cap and the Auricap combo.

On the resisters to the battery anything from 2.2 meg ohms to 3.3 meg ohms will work fine.

The low dcr on the woofer inductor is a virtue and will make your outlay on the binding posts worthwhile.

[Dave 2021]

Ian, thanks again for correcting me. Yes, big difference between bi wiring and bi amping. My mom always used to tell me that I wasn't the brightest bulb in the pack and not the sharpest tool in the shed but if I said please and thank you enough, people would take pity on me and help me ;). Seriously though, I feel like I am a young Luke Skywalker and you are Yoda and we are at the swampy lake trying to raise the X-Wing Falcon out of the muck. Except this time, the young Luke might have a chance. Much thanks Master for your help and patience. I did indeed order inductors as you suggested and especially the Erse Super Q's for the 2.5 oHm values. I got all inductors for under $100 from Parts Express. I guess the Super Q's are on backorder but were supposed to be in today on 11/5. Who knows, I thought Erse were made in the U.S. so probably not held up somewhere on a dock or slow boat from China? And now I know that Solen's are the way to go so I am going to look into ordering direct from Solen. Probably off topic here but I wanted to mention that I have found a bit of upper base extension by blocking off one port of the 4430's. Had my wife crochet a 4" round web around some acousta stuff. Very subtle but seems to make a difference. Also, I wanted to mention that these speakers achieved the WAF because I don't just listen to them loud, I can listen to them at sub 70 dB levels at night and they still retain their definition and detail. At one point I was going to sell them and my wife said, no, why don't you hold on to them. Ha, that says a lot! Anyway, so where do I deliver the Knob Creek? You have deserved it! Or if you are up for it, how about a phone call? Finally I clicked on a link of the pictures of the JBL speaker Hall of Fame from your posts. Holy Crap, I thought I was at the Kendrick website. Man, if I ever win the lottery, I will buy all of them! Are all those your speakers? I am greatly humbled and awed at the same time. Cheers!

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hello young Skywalker,

Below is a drafted up schematic that should take your 4430 system well past light speed!

Don’t tell anyone l told you so because they might feel precious over their stock 4430’s.

Some notes for your mission should you choose to accept it.

1. The variable resisters are in fact two separate mono 8 ohm Lpads.

The 30R variable resister is the parallel arm of an 8R Lpad. See the terminal numbers for correct connection. Not it is wired as a variable 30R resister. I suggest you use a multi meter to verify you have the correct terminals on the Lpads. Many Star Troopers have fallen foul of incorrect Lpad wiring.

2. The 8R variable resister is wired up as a constant impedance 8R Lpad. See the terminal numbers for correct connection.

3. You will need to order 4 mono 8R Lpads,

4. The drivers are wired up in phase (electrical). The original network was designed by David Smith. After much experimentation this network was chosen as it offers some midrange (presence) level adjustment around 2,000 hertz and a high frequency (brilliance) extension adjustment above 10,000 hertz.

5. The charge coupled caps are simply wired in series. The +Ve connection of the 2.2 meg ohm resisters goes to the +Ve terminal of a nine volt battery. The -Ve terminal of the 9 volt battery is connected to the -ve / ground connection of both the low and high pass filters. If you can’t get 4uF used 3.9uF. This is perfectly acceptable. If you have problems ask for help.

6. Allow 15 minutes for the connection of the 9 volt battery to take full effect.

7. The conjugate network is to flatten the rising electrical impedance of the woofer past the crossover point. The capacitor can be a non polarised electrolyte type to reduce cost.

The resisters should be wire wound ceramic types or Mills power resisters with a minimum power rating as shown. I suggest you use Mills resisters in the high frequency network as they are lauded to have superior subjective characteristics.

8. General Construction Notes:

I suggest once you get all the parts to lay them out on an A3 sheet of paper just like the schematic.

Then mark up the paper sheet with the position of the parts. Cut a sheet of plywood or Mdf with your powers to size and use the paper outline as a template for mounting the parts. I suggest you use both 5 mm zip ties and hot melt glue to fasten the parts to the crossover boards. Mount the ERSE Super Q inductor well away from the air core inductors to avoid cross talk. Use tag strips to terminate the parts with flying leads. Use 7.5 amp stranded copper wire. Use spaghetti heat shrink tube to insulate exposed connections to avoid short circuits. I recommend a 60 watt soldering iron for this work to heat the joins quickly enough and to avoid dry joints. A 25 watt iron is not going to work properly.

David Smith designed the 4430-4435 networks and went on to design a number of loudspeaker systems including those for Snell Acoustics. The 4430-4435 were largely the work of John Eargle and Don Keele. Greg Timber’s later designed the JBL 4425 monitor.

[Dave 2021]

Hi Ian (Master Yoda),

My beloved tripod droid was not able to project the holographic image of the plans as when I clicked on the attachment, I just received a picture of a paperclip. Then CP3O was babbling something in the best English accent his A.I self was able to muster but alas, I could not get to the projections. I will be sending some wupiupi or perhaps nova crystal your way and perhaps that will unlock the secret plans. I will most likely require some additional instructions as the l-pad instructions through me for a bit of a loop. Something that is readily available at parts express? And then there is that electrolytic cap somewhere in the mix. I am taking a deep breath and calling on the force for patience and determination! But the force has told me to trust, and that I will do so be on the lookout for the wupiupi.

Thank you,

David Mark

[Riley Casey]

The crossover schematic displays for me. Perhaps check your user settings on the forum or maybe a different browser. BTW, great inductor symbols Ian. What software is that?


Hi Ian (Master Yoda),

My beloved tripod droid was not able to project the holographic image of the plans as when I clicked on the attachment, I just received a picture of a paperclip. ...
David Mark

[toddalin]

Hi Ian (Master Yoda),

My beloved tripod droid was not able to project the holographic image of the plans as when I clicked on the attachment, I just received a picture of a paperclip. Then CP3O was babbling something in the best English accent his A.I self was able to muster but alas, I could not get to the projections. I will be sending some wupiupi or perhaps nova crystal your way and perhaps that will unlock the secret plans. I will most likely require some additional instructions as the l-pad instructions through me for a bit of a loop. Something that is readily available at parts express? And then there is that electrolytic cap somewhere in the mix. I am taking a deep breath and calling on the force for patience and determination! But the force has told me to trust, and that I will do so be on the lookout for the wupiupi.

Thank you,

David Mark


Try this...,

On the picture of the paperclip. "right click" your mouse and select "open image in a new tab" and do so. This is what I have to do to see my pictures when posting JBL Heritage images in the AudioKarma forum.

[Dave 2021]

Try this...,

On the picture of the paperclip. "right click" your mouse and select "open image in a new tab" and do so. This is what I have to do to see my pictures when posting JBL Heritage images in the AudioKarma forum.

Thanks, I tried that first thing and nothing. No worries, I have the plans to destroy the Death Star but now am held up for a considerable time on parts. 2.5 mH Super Q inductors expected in sometime mid to late December. Everything else is ordered so I will start constructing a bit at a time as parts come in. I have rebuilt several crossovers with new inductors, resistors and caps for several speakers including the JBL L200t3's (the ones that made me decide to go overboard and get the 4430's). Oh well, everything in due time and patience. Of course I could have listened to Darth Vader and gone his route with non charge coupled capacitors and used foil inductors and Jupiter & Teflon capacitors, but I never have been one to bow down to the dark side and "You do it my way or else!" In the part of the galaxy I am from, we still fight for freedom of choice and freewill! So now my enemy is time and I will meet that enemy with the greatest light saber I have which is patience and forbearance! All in good time this will be done. I may be silent for awhile but you shall hear from me again!

[toddalin]

It's taken me 4 years and countless itterations to create a set of crossovers I was happy/satisfied with for my creation that uses JBL 2241H (18"), JBL 2251J (~10"), Great Heil AMT. I used Audyn Q4 caps and am quite happy with them.


https://youtu.be/qz4d17nPMDA

[Dave 2021]

It's taken me 4 years and countless itterations to create a set of crossovers I was happy/satisfied with for my creation that uses JBL 2241H (18"), JBL 2251J (~10"), Great Heil AMT. I used Audyn Q4 caps and am quite happy with them.


https://youtu.be/qz4d17nPMDA

Hey Man, that is an awesome system. From what I hear, the JBL 2251J is one of the absolute best in mid range reproduction and realism. And I have a pair of the Heil AMT's as well. Talk about sound at the speed of light! I would love to recreate a system like you have. I use an 18" (Eminence) sub to augment my 4430's so I can only imagine what type of sonic bliss you are experiencing with the 2241's! When I was talking about Darth Vader, I was talking about an individual who is not on this forum who is the owner of a company that sells a certain type of capacitor ( and is very popular with the Klipsch community and I have used extensively in the past projects I have done) He wanted me to send my crossover network to him in the mail and then he would tell me what parts would work best. When I told him I wanted to eliminate the internal/external crossover switch, he became angry and "if I wanted to do it my way" then I was wasting his time. I have spent a pretty penny in the past several years buying parts from him and then he went ballistic on me. Greg Timbers mentioned that the internal/external crossover switch "was not that great", so I wanted to go purist and eliminate it from the entire crossover network. That is the guy I am referring to as "Darth Vader". There is no doubt in my mind that your system would kick my system in the hind end in just about every category. Even with my eventual improved crossover network. My drivers simply cannot compete. Perhaps one day I will be able to do what you have done, but for now, I am trying to improve on what I have and what has been available to me.

[toddalin]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.corvetteforum.com-vbulletin/1550x1157/80-screenhunter_354_oct_13_13_51_2bdffa27b97a403c413a b0779802e8b5e15a302c.jpg

[Dave 2021]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.corvetteforum.com-vbulletin/1550x1157/80-screenhunter_354_oct_13_13_51_2bdffa27b97a403c413a b0779802e8b5e15a302c.jpg

It looks like you have been able to match the output/speed of the Heil with the mid woofer and blended it perfectly with the 18" woofer. In my mind that is what I always wanted to do, but I was going to go with a Heil AMT, a vintage Electro voice VMR (vented mid range used in the interface D) , a 10" woofer like you have and then an 18" or 21" high efficiency(98 dB+) woofer. Alas, in order to do that, I first have to build a separate living/listening enclosure to house my listening room. There is no way I could have that system and not totally lose my sense of perspective and possibly explode the house from SPL's. Not to mention what my better half would do. She tells me I can do that project when I have a building approximately 100 yards from the main house. It will be a dream or possibility for now. First I must complete my mission and see what all the fuss is about with charged coupled crossovers. Seems to help with horns that cover a broad spectrum of frequencies is what I have heard. I have been interested in the charged couple crossover for about 10 years now. Does it really make a big difference? That is the question I feel compelled to answer for myself by actually doing it even if I reveal to the world that I am the speaker "Forest Gump"! Thanks or all the help and feedback to this point. When I first started this thread it was all crickets.

[Dave 2021]

I always wondered what would happen if a person took a Heil air motion transformer and connected it to the 4430 horn? Looks like the aperture originally designed for the compression driver actually would almost encompass the slot accordion pleats of the Heil drivers. It even has a bell shape that one could cut the inner part of the horn away to fit the large magnetic structure of the Heil. Any way, sure somebody has been there and done that? I also tried at one point to match my Heil AMT's with my rig. Never pulled it off with my JBL L200t3 but when I added it to my Technic 7070's (recapped, re inducted, re resistored , and Heil going from 4200 Hz to 20k plus,it took the listening experience to a whole new level. And when I paired it with an Electrovoice ST-350 with the vented midrange, it sounded very balanced, dynamic and presented a very nice 3D sound stage. I always wanted to get the Heil in the mix but with the 4430 speakers but I cannot get it to blend.

[toddalin]

I had 4430s and the L200s with the 2235 woofer, 2420 driver on the long L300 horn and the 2405 slot with custom crossovers.

The 4430s will easily out image/soundstage the L200/300s. But I didn't care for the sound of the 2425 titanium driver as they are harsher than the 2420/2405 and sold the 4430s (through I do have 2425s on butt cheeks in my four surround speakers).

For example, with the L200s, you point to the general area of the saxophone drawing a circle in the air. With the 4430s you point toward the saxophone. With the Mermans, you point at the guy playing the saxophone and can also hear the guy playing the trumpet 3 feet to the left and 2 feet behind and feel as though you could walk between them in space.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I suggest trying the 4430 as it is then for a while with your new networks.

If you lust for further sonic enhancement the road ahead splits two ways:

1. Install a Radian one inch compression driver with a BE Diaphragm.

2. Add the JBL 2123H 10 inch mid driver making it a very nice 3 way system (which I have used myself with great success)

I do not recommend adding a UHF driver to supplement the bi radial horn.

After that its another loudspeaker design .
https://klappav.com.au/collections/jbl?page=1

[Riley Casey]

I can underscore door number two there. I've been listening to 12" mid bass ( either 2202s or 2206s ) between 15" lows and 2416 drivers on 2344 horns for close to ten years now. The improvement over the 4430 fifteen inch woofer to one inch driver transition is well worth going three way.


I suggest trying the 4430 as it is then for a while with your new networks.

If you lust for further sonic enhancement the road ahead splits two ways:

1. Install a Radian one inch compression driver with a BE Diaphragm.

2. Add the JBL 2123H 10 inch mid driver making it a very nice 3 way system (which I have used myself with great success)

I do not recommend adding a UHF driver to supplement the bi radial horn.

After that its another loudspeaker design .
https://klappav.com.au/collections/jbl?page=1

[Ian Mackenzie]

Either that or make up a Tad style enclosure for the 2335H and grab. Joseph Crowe bi radial horn which based on tests is the NexGen Tad 4001 horn. Joseph can design the throat to match your driver. Remove the mass ring, retune with modest bass boost and you are done. These forms are excellent for diy giving predictable results with Joseph’s technical support. 800 hertz, 290 hertz and custom horns available to order.

https://josephcrowe.com/collections/frontpage/products/es-290-biradial-wood-horn

[Kay Pirinha]

Dave,

may I show you my own networks for a 4430 clone project that I built two and a half years ago:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?41694-My-4430-project&highlight=

As you see, I didn't use any expensive boutique parts, as I don't believe in capacitor sound (even less in the improvement of »charge coupling«). Instead, any capacitors are from surplus, and they were cheap. But they all are polypropylene or polystyrene, physically the best film dielectrics one can buy. I individually measured a large stack of capacitors and paralleld them to get the right values, where necessary. I opted for cored inductors for both the bigger values, bought the next higher stock values and unwound them to the right inductance, using my DeRee DR5000 component tester (i.e. 2.7 mH -> 2.6 mH, 1.8 mH -> 1.6 mH, and 50 µH -> 40 µH, respectively).

Especially for the big LPF inductors I chose the ones with the smallest DC resistance that I've found, due to reasons already mentioned in this thread. I didn't find air cored inductors with DC resistance that even approached the onesI used (0.11 ohms).

Finally, it is very important to orientate the inductor axes perpenducularly to each other, see my pics.

Best regards!

[Dave 2021]

Hi All,

Thank you very kindly for your suggestions and helpful hints. Some day, I would love to try to morph the 4430's to a three way with a 10" driver. But then again if I decide to go all out, then I will probably decide to try something completely different (cue Monty Python!). I have had many speakers in my time and I really liked the JBL L200t3's that I picked up relatively cheap at a local thrift store. I upgraded the crossover to great effect and after having them for several years, decided to make the plunge and buy some 4430's that were for sale very near me. The woofer cones were ok but the surrounds were in very bad shape. I went ahead and re-coned them myself with simply speaker cones and put the mass ring in. The SS cones, voice coil and voice coil former were noticeably lighter then the OEM cones and I had my doubts. But, I was very happy with the end result and the improvement in the lower midrange. How much of that was due to the bad surrounds on the original, I have no way of knowing. Anyway, I really liked the way the 4430's sounded and intrigued by how good I could get a 2 way speaker to sound. I just finished up with the first phase of building new charged coupled crossovers. By first phase, I mean I built the high pass section of the crossover. I am still waiting on an inductor for the woofer and it is on a slow boat from China or something. Basically I am dividing the network into two parts so I can still use the original crossover for the woofer. My new crossover is installed on the bottom part of a speaker stand I built. I did this to make sure I did not change or alter the original speaker save new high quality binding posts. I also put in 12 gauge ofc copper wire for good measure. I am not an expert and certainly not a certified speaker reviewer, but I do have to comment that the high pass section of the crossover sounds vastly improved to my ears compared to the stock. By vastly improved, I mean way less distortion and a noticeable reduction of harshness and "grit". I would also add to that that the sound is "velvety", smooth, more detailed and more dynamic. Symbols and percussion have become more alive as well as vocals. I like the 4430's to begin with because, to my ears. they are non-fatiguing, and now, they are even more immersive. I am not sure if this is due to new capacitors, inductors, resistors and lower gauge wire, or if the magic is in the charged coupled configuration. I don't know, but just rebuilding the top end of these speakers has opened up for me a whole new experience of enjoyment and musical bliss. I am certainly aware that there is an almost endless array out there regarding speakers, drivers, driver arrangement and engineers, but I am actually very happy with what a modest investment has done to "hotrod" these speakers. I am thinking I will "borrow" the existing 2.6 mH inductor from the stock crossover and go ahead a build the low pass filter with the charged coupled caps. Then, when the new inductor comes in I can just swap it out. I began this journey to experience for myself what all the fuss was about with charge coupled crossovers and I can say that it is worth it for me. It may not be for everyone but my ears certainly could tell a monumental difference and they are very happy indeed! Shout out to Ian for all his help and guidance with this project. Without his help I probably would have blown up the speaker or had a mental short circuit!

[Dave 2021]

Dave,

may I show you my own networks for a 4430 clone project that I built two and a half years ago:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?41694-My-4430-project&highlight=

As you see, I didn't use any expensive boutique parts, as I don't believe in capacitor sound (even less in the improvement of »charge coupling«). Instead, any capacitors are from surplus, and they were cheap. But they all are polypropylene or polystyrene, physically the best film dielectrics one can buy. I individually measured a large stack of capacitors and paralleld them to get the right values, where necessary. I opted for cored inductors for both the bigger values, bought the next higher stock values and unwound them to the right inductance, using my DeRee DR5000 component tester (i.e. 2.7 mH -> 2.6 mH, 1.8 mH -> 1.6 mH, and 50 µH -> 40 µH, respectively).

Especially for the big LPF inductors I chose the ones with the smallest DC resistance that I've found, due to reasons already mentioned in this thread. I didn't find air cored inductors with DC resistance that even approached the onesI used (0.11 ohms).

Finally, it is very important to orientate the inductor axes perpenducularly to each other, see my pics.

Best regards!

Hey Kay,

Very impressive work. Those caps look like they sound silky smooth! Oil caps like you have are most probably the best sounding. And the layout you have is so professional and in perfect order. I can bet your speakers sound absolutely amazing. I remember reading one of your posts from way back when I just got my 4430's. I picked up on a post you sent about re coning your woofers with SS audio cones and I did the same because you were not having the outrageous price of OEM JBL cones. Thanks to you I got to where I am and I am totally happy with my re-cones. I will embarrass myself and reveal that I fudged the first pair and had to order a second set to get it right. But get it right I did. I certainly appreciate your no nonsense way of building things and your low DCR values. You are right, no air core inductor can beat .11 ohms! The Erse Super Q's come close to that but they are a way out. And, I am not as handy with an ohm meter as you are. I have a pair of 4 ohm super q's in a pair of EV SP-15's that I am not using. If I could unwind them and get to 2.6 ohm I would be good, but, alas I do not have a DeRee DR 5000 to measure. I would upload pictures of what I have done but I have not figured out how to do that yet with this forum. Just to warn you though, my work is not as beautiful as yours, but it works and I am very happy. I have had lots of 3 way and even 4 way speakers and electrostatic speakers etc. Speakers that crossed over as low as 300 hz and they always started to bother my ears after longer listening sessions or high volume listening levels. Something about the 2 way bi radial horns that don't hurt my ears. I think JBL was trying to emulate or better the Altec 604's. The big boss man at the time said 2 ways sounded best and so the 4430 was born. I find it interesting that most JBL designs going forward (of the 4430 & 4435) are based primarily as two way designs to handle the widest frequency range with perhaps a boost at the top end with a super tweeter or augmented at the low end with a "subwoofer". And a few of the highest end designs like the K2 etc used charge coupled crossovers. So, I thought I would try that with the 4430's. There is no way I can buy a $35k plus speaker. And I cannot afford even the $25k M2 with electronic crossovers. Anyway, thanks for responding and I wish I had your wiring skills!

[Kay Pirinha]

Thanks for the compliments :)!

Anyway, as I wrote above, there are no oil capacitors at all. All of them are polypropylene, most probably the best dielectric known today, scientfically spoken. Those big cans are motor start or run (I dunno...) capacitors, and also polypropylene (see that MKP written on them).

I bought my DR-5000 meter just for the purpose of building these xovers directly from Japan. It wasn't that expensive and is worth any cent. But it literally eats batteries, though, and the dedicated AC adapter is rather expensive.

Best regards!

[Dave 2021]

I finally finished the crossover using the existing 2.6 mH inductor. I am attempting to add pictures so we will see if they go through. My work is not anywhere as neat and orderly as Kay's but it was difficult to manage the 12 gauge wires I used. So, kind of looks a little like a rat's nest in there but it works.

I have dual mono amps that have a switch on the front where I can select either Class A or A/B. I have owned these amps for about 6 years and never really noticed any change on any of my speakers when flipping the switch. It all seemed to sound the same. So even with the 4430's and the original crossovers, I just kept them running in A/B. I was very surprised that when I was burning in the new crossover and just thought, what the heck, why not try them in Class A? Surprised? Amazed? The only way I can describe it is that the horns came to "life" and the speaker expanded in height and width to substantial proportions. They went from 3 foot tall to about 8 foot tall. It was unmistakable I have also been listening to my favorite music collection with what I consider high quality recordings and am hearing details I have never heard before. Little bits of triangles, vocalists breath, faint ocean waves, and the list goes on. I could go on and on, but I will stop there. All I can say is that I feel the change from stock to charged coupled has made a gigantic difference and these speakers are now keepers for life.

[Kay Pirinha]

May I ask which L pads you used as the high frequency bypass rheostat? I've often read that a common 8 ohms L pad can be used in this service, but after thinking about it very thoroughly I came to the comnclusion that this doesn't make too much sense. Consequently, I've modified my L pads to get them work properly, see my related thread (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?41507-Modifying-a-L-pad-for-rheostat&highlight=).

Best regards!

[Dave 2021]

May I ask which L pads you used as the high frequency bypass rheostat? I've often read that a common 8 ohms L pad can be used in this service, but after thinking about it very thoroughly I came to the comnclusion that this doesn't make too much sense. Consequently, I've modified my L pads to get them work properly, see my related thread (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?41507-Modifying-a-L-pad-for-rheostat&highlight=).

Best regards!

Hi Kay,

I used these L-Pads from Parts Express https://www.parts-express.com/L-Pad-50W-Mono-1-Shaft-8-Ohm-260-255 I read your thread on modifying the L-Pads and not sure I understand exactly what you are doing. It is obvious to me that you have a high degree of expertise in your electrical skills and measurements. I will re read several times to see if I can wrap my brain around what you are doing. Of note, on the original OEM L-Pads, both increased the signal to mid and high by turning clockwise. Also, the high frequency L-Pad really didn't seem to make a huge difference. In my current set up, the mid level is increased by turning clockwise, but the high frequency is increased by going counter clockwise. It works, the same as the original but I was kind of wondering how I can get it right by going clockwise. Either that, or I can just use the stock L-Pads or even better yet, possibly remove them from the circuit all together. I use Direc Live Room Correction and can tailor the sound to my liking with or without L-Pads. In any case, I am very impressed with your attention to detail and getting everything right, so can you perhaps go into more detail on what I could do? I will state that as of right now, everything sounds amazing and I do not have your electric meters to measure components and I don't think I would file down anything to fit a certain measurement. If it is as easy as opening up the L-Pad and reversing the resisting component, then I would be all for that. Thanks for your continued input and advice!

[Dave 2021]

Ok Kay, I just re evaluated the the upper high frequency rheostat on my new crossover and decided that it was not working correctly. I followed the JBL network diagram as well as Ian's detailed diagram to a "t" . I am very careful when I do my soldering and triple checked everything before I put the iron to the wire. My wiring and soldering checks out 100 percent, but like you pointed out, something is not checking out. In my original crossover, I had the high frequency attenuation at full tilt most of the time. But it was always nice to be able to dial it down depending on the recording I was listening to. Much easier to dial it down manually then mess with adjusting Direc equalization settings. At this point, I am thinking that I will just by-pass the whole high frequency L-Pad altogether. One less part in the signal path. I will wait a bit to see if you have time to explain your fix for this but otherwise, the high pass attenuation will get the ax.

[Kay Pirinha]

Well, my considerations were the following: A L pad basically consists of two rheostats that are being actuated simultaneously. The 1st one measures 8 ohms, is in series with the driver (between input and driver) and decreases it's resistance when actuated clockwise, the other one measures 42 ohms, is in parallel with the driver (from output to ground/common) and increases it's resistance with cw actuation. Finally it gets cut off (infinite resistance) when fully cw. I considered both properties undesirable and swapped the two individual rheos. The 8 ohms one now is inactive for that purpose, the 42 ohms one is paralleled with two 220 ohms resistors to get close to the 30 ohms value of the originals.

Best regards!

[Dave 2021]

Well, my considerations were the following: A L pad basically consists of two rheostats that are being actuated simultaneously. The 1st one measures 8 ohms, is in series with the driver (between input and driver) and decreases it's resistance when actuated clockwise, the other one measures 42 ohms, is in parallel with the driver (from output to ground/common) and increases it's resistance with cw actuation. Finally it gets cut off (infinite resistance) when fully cw. I considered both properties undesirable and swapped the two individual rheos. The 8 ohms one now is inactive for that purpose, the 42 ohms one is paralleled with two 220 ohms resistors to get close to the 30 ohms value of the originals.

Best regards!


Kay, I have to say thank you for bringing the L-Pad's SHARPLY into focus and to my attention. While I did not perform any of the electronic surgery you prescribed, I perceived I had a problem with the L-Pad wiring since my high frequency upper L-pad was working in reverse. I was able to receive some guidance from Yoda (Ian) and it turns out I had the L-Pad wiring wrong. I was going off of the stamped numbers on the Dayton Audio L-Pads and not following the diagram Ian sent which clearly says terminal front and the respective numbers. Oh well, I have learned something once again. Anyway, at first it really did not seem to make a big difference (re-wiring the L-Pads correctly), but after I had a chance to really sit down and listen, yes, it made a big difference. I would again like to state that if you had not brought up the subject of L-Pads, I would, right now be missing out on what I am currently experiencing. So another interesting thing is that when I was installing one of the 9-volt battery holders, one of the terminals that clasp onto the positive terminal of the battery smashed in a bit on one side so it makes a positive connection but does not snap in all the way. I have another on order but making do with this one for now. So I had just finished rewiring the the L-Pads correctly in the morning and gave the speakers a quick listen to make sure everything was working and attenuating clockwise etc. Later today, I sat down and started listening critically and did notice an obvious improvement. When things sound good, I have a tendency to increase the volume. At some point, I really increased the volume and suddenly one speaker became muted and I thought, "oh crap, what now?". I pulled the speakers off the stands and examined the crossovers. All connections were good, no wires loose, everything was good. I then put the speakers back on their stands and then noticed that the 9-volt battery on the holder with the damaged terminal had bumped loose due to the bass. I popped it back in and everything shifted back into focus for that speaker. I was not really sure that the improvements I was hearing was due to using new caps, resistors and mostly new inductors. I believe the charged coupled configuration makes a huge difference, making the 4430's come alive. And it is not only in the horns, it is evident in the entire bass range as well. That has been my experience anyway.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hi Dave,

Once you have settled on the position of the midrange presence L pad you can put in fixed value Mills power resisters or your other favourite brand. It will then be completely reliable and may sound even better…….

I must say with your recent diy activities your well on the way to becoming a JBL Jedi.

Yoda

[Kay Pirinha]

Hi Dave,

a loose battery connector in a charge coupled xover won't result in a complete cutoff of the relevant driver. In fact, I'm quite convinced you won't notice it at all.

The reason is what I've described above: If you use the L pad's higher ohmish rheostat that normally is in parallel to it's output, action is reversed (attenuation when turned clockwise) and comes to a cutoff when fully clockwise.

Best regards!

[Dave 2021]

Hi Dave,

Once you have settled on the position of the midrange presence L pad you can put in fixed value Mills power resisters or your other favourite brand. It will then be completely reliable and may sound even better…….

I must say with your recent diy activities your well on the way to becoming a JBL Jedi.

Yoda


I keep looking at the customer feedback link on Yoda's forum responses and realize that it is some sort of mystical heaven where I belong once I have earned the title of JBL Jedi. In the mean time, as a newbie, novice, neophyte and aspiring amateur, I still have much to learn and more to grow. So, my first question is: in looking at the original JBL diagram of the 4430 speaker network, it shows the 14 uF capacitor with a .01 uF in the low frequency circuit (between the positive feed and 7.5 resistor) . If the 14 uF capacitor is not an important element in the overall sound of the low pass circuit, then why in the heck did JBL engineers designate a by-pass cap in there? Would or could one benefit by adding a poly cap there instead of a np electrolytic. Or better yet, what would happen if one were to add a charged coupled cap there (two 28 uF caps with a 2.2 Meg resistor sandwiched in between?). Let's see, what happens again when we split open this small atom?

Second question is: I cannot decide between 12 or 3 O'clock on the mid L-pad. Sort of depends on what mood I am in and what type of music is on the jukebox. Most likely inclined to choose the 3:00. So, if I do that then what is the SOP for measuring the L-Pads resistance with a standard oHm meter and what terminals have to be measured. I am almost inclined to set my setting and then ship to Kay in Germany for precision measurements! Btw I happen to think Kraftwerk's album "Computer World" is one of the best sounding and most brilliant musical compositions in existence). I am assuming I am looking for a 2 dB attenuation and I can look up the resistors values in Erse's crossover calculator but would like to know the correct way to do this and not just willy nilly my way through this. After all, I have come this far with stupendous results (So great in scope, degree, or importance as to amaze. Extremely large in amount, extent, or size; enormous. Remarkable; outstanding.).








Third question is: What happens to the high pass (10kH +) L-pad? Do I leave it in, do I swap out one of wipers, or does it just get deleted from the circuit altogether?

I am all in favor of going further in sound refinement so this will certainly be on my very important things to do list. I will most likely use Mills resistors for the fixed L-Pad. I used Dayton Audio 1% 200 watt, ultra low inductance resistors for the main crossover just because I wanted to try them out. Yes, they were about $1.50 each less then a Mills but I loved the look of them. They reminded me of the resistors in one of my very first speaker crossover projects (Pioneer CS-99A's). I actually think they sound very good and doubt I could pass a blind test between resistors. Mills resistors are very compact and have no inductance so they are ideal for an L-Pad configuration I think.

[Dave 2021]

Hi Dave,

a loose battery connector in a charge coupled xover won't result in a complete cutoff of the relevant driver. In fact, I'm quite convinced you won't notice it at all.

The reason is what I've described above: If you use the L pad's higher ohmish rheostat that normally is in parallel to it's output, action is reversed (attenuation when turned clockwise) and comes to a cutoff when fully clockwise.

Best regards!

Hello Dear Kay,

I would like to state that I did not have a complete cutoff of any of the two drivers in my sound reproducer. What I did say is that I noticed that the sound was muted or muffled. Both drivers were working but no loner dynamic. After the L-Pad rewire (done specifically because you brought brought it to my attention ((& I thank you (((HUGS!))) I can clockwise the heck out of both L-Pads and it only increases the signal (there is no longer any cutout or cutoff). What I noticed is that both the horn and the woofer suddenly seemed lifeless ie not dynamic. I pulled the speaker off the stand and examined the crossovers. I went over every wire and everything checked out. When I built the crossover, I soldered the heck out of every connection and then put shrink wrap over the connections so I was not surprised to find that everything checked out. But when I put the speaker back on the crossover stand, I noticed that the 9v battery was loose and not making a connection. I pushed it pack into the terminals and then "bam" it was working again. I did not move any of the L-Pads positions at any time during this procedure. I will admit, I am a forest gump (or young Luke Skywalker) of speakers for sure but I still have a scientific mind. You say that you are quite convinced that I would not notice if the battery was connected or not but what are you basing that on? Have you built and listened to a charge coupled crossover? Are you just going of of what you think or do you actually have your own experience and proof to base it on? I have nothing to gain and am not profiting from any of this save that my own enjoyment of sound. In other words, I am reporting an unbiased experience (my own experience) of what I have observed simply because I love music and sound reproducers and that is my thing. And, I love discussing these things because it is my passion. It is possible that it could have been something else that I am not aware of but my ears tell me otherwise. Even my tone deaf wife can tell a huge difference in the sound from these speakers and has started to gravitate more towards my listening sessions instead of leaving the room. That, in itself, speaks volumes.

[Kay Pirinha]

Hi Dave,

well, both my knowledge and my attitude are scientifically based. Both science and good engineering practice tell that, in contradiction to polarized electrolytics, film foil or metalized film capacitors don't need no polarizing, or DC bias, at all to work properly. There's simply no physical explanation to be found why this should be otherwise. I've questioned rather often in the past for some reliable source (i. e. scientifical paper, based on DBT's) that proves some benefit of DC biasing foil capacitors, but alas I didn't get any reliable answer till today. I've even started a thread on this subject some time ago.

For practical reasons look at those »charge coupled« xovers: Most, if not any of them use 9 Vdc LR6 batteries for that purpose. So any claimed benefit would work only below a peak AC voltage of that value. Otherwise the polarization would be reversed and the benefit cancelled. 9 Vp means about 6.4 Vac for a sinusoidal signal, which itself computes to a power of a mere 8.1 watts into 8 ohms.

I'm quite convinced that »charge coupling« is nothing more than a marketing feature. Adding components of some costs, putting ads with flowerish words, and asking the multiple of these costs works for the company, doesn't it?

Best regards!

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hi Kay,

If you look up Wima they have some interesting application notes with recommendations on Film Foil polypropylene capacitors used in various kinds of circuits.

[Kay Pirinha]

Hi Ian,

sorry, didn't find anything related to charge coupling at WIMA's German language website. Did you probably refer to this article (https://www.wima.de/wp-content/uploads/media/WIMA-Audio.pdf)? Well, neither dielectric absorption nor residual charging (page 4) refer to what is done in charge coupling. Or did I miss anything?

Best regards!

[Robh3606]

Hi Dave,

For practical reasons look at those »charge coupled« xovers: Most, if not any of them use 9 Vdc LR6 batteries for that purpose. So any claimed benefit would work only below a peak AC voltage of that value. Otherwise the polarization would be reversed and the benefit cancelled. 9 Vp means about 6.4 Vac for a sinusoidal signal, which itself computes to a power of a mere 8.1 watts into 8 ohms.

Best regards!


Why would the DC just disappear?? If you looked at an Oscilloscope you should see the AC voltage superimposed on the battery DC offset. You also have an extremely long discharge Time with the series resistor.

AC does not equal DC they are different and behave differently.

Rob :)

[Kay Pirinha]

You're right in case of no significant AC voltage over the capacitor. Anyway, in xovers and other filters there's signal beyond (at a LP) or below (in a LP) the roll off frequency whose amplitude may well exceed the polarisation DC voltage.

But we shouldn't derail Dave's thread on his 4430's any longer, as this is quite another topic.

Best regards!

[Ian Mackenzie]

No it refers to the application of metalized film, film foil and double sided construction for hi current applications.

The Solen Fast Caps 250 Vdc used by JBL are metalized aluminium with their particular approach to the dielectric and winding and winding tension. This is quite different to the approach taken by Mundorf. Some of their capacitors are like two end to end capacitors to reduce inductance and some are oil damped

I don’t know if you have used or compared the Solen Fast Caps subjectively with the Mundorf Supreme or the Silver Oil versions?

I have and l would describe the charge coupled Solen’s as subjectively very similar to the Mundorf Supreme capacitors. The stock Solen Fast Caps are subjectively quite a dirty noisy capacitor subjectively. The Silver Oil Mundorf have a less live presentation subjectively which l prefer with non dusted diaphragms. The Solen Charge Coupled capacitors exhibit an air of dynamic transient detail and contrast that l have not observed in any other capacitor. They are neutral in that there is no warmth or loudness effect found in some boutique capacitor brands. I would throw caution to the wind if your source equipment is not because at this level the flaws in the source equipment and the recordings became very revealing.

My appraisal was done with Pass labs X250.5 amplifier at the time. The differences are irrefutable on appropriate hifi equipment. I have since used Parasound Halo amplifiers which l think are a very good match for JBL systems we use around here. They have a complimentary Jfet input stage that was initially used in the first Mark Levinson amplifiers. They are relatively inexpensive and l think they are more neutral than the Pass Labs which have a subtle warmth and zing as you might expect from a mosfet based amplifier. But who’s complaining when Nelson Pass gives you an amp after a review!

The X250.5 amplifiers have a small amount of single ended class A bias from the negative supply rail and are biased in class A push pull up to low power levels and then operate as a conventional class AB amplifier up to full output using balanced super symmetry complimentary follower output stages. They only have two stages and they are exceedingly linear with relatively low global feedback. John Curl is no slouch as an amplifier designer and the prior version of my Parasound amp was in production for a very long time.

Why am l talking about amplifiers?

Because it’s all relative and as everything else gets better the signal chain becomes more important and is only as strong as its weakest link.

[Dave 2021]

OK then, it is quite evident that there are people on this site that are way more advanced in their electrical knowledge than I will ever be. I suspect some with electrical engineering degrees. Like Ph.D level and such. We, (myself and those with higher levels of formal education) all share one thing in common and that is most likely a passion for listening to music. I am considering buying some cheap 9v battery holders in plastic cases with an on/off switch on the case. They are only about $5 for a pair. I can easily wire them in and then I can experiment with a double blind test. I say double blind because I will not tell my wife which switch position activates the 9v current. Then I can close my eyes and have her switch the position on the terminals while I listen to see if I can really tell a difference. All I know, is that my very good 4430's have been turned into the best pair of speakers I have ever owned. They seem to combine many elements of some of my favorite speakers I have owned in the past. I used to have a pair of Bozak B4000 Modern Symphonies with 6" aluminum mid ranges that were tri amped with an electronic crossover with 50 watt tube amps powering the mids (crossed over at 300 hz), the woofers powered with bridged mono 600 watt Adcoms (designed by Mr. Nelson Pass) and the tweeter section amplified by a musical fidelity amp. The midrange in those speakers was absolutely golden to my ears and now the 4430's surpass that. I cannot believe there is not a midrange driver hidden somewhere in the room. I don't know how it is possible that those big 15" woofers can do what they do. Having a lighter cone, gigantic magnet assembly and a 4" voice coil probably has something to do with it, but with the new crossover, I am hearing details in the midrange from music (I am 20 years familiar with) that I have never heard before. And the timing of the music is absolutely stunning and realistic. I had a pair of ESS AMT C speakers with the Heil tweeter. I loved the high end on those but ultimately it did not sound realistic and was a bit too "airy" for me and the woofers simply could not keep up with the Heils. IN that speaker, I could tell that the midrange was not very defined. The 4430's upper end is now clear and detailed and matches perfectly with the woofer. I think the JBL engineers stated in their literature that the 4430's polar response was equal for one octave at the crossover point of 1000 hz. To my ears, the integration of the two drivers now sounds seamless. There is nothing lacking. I am not saying that the 4430's are the be all end all of speakers either. But for what I can afford and with a minimal cost to upgrade, I could not be happier. As a matter of fact, they check all the boxes for amazing musical reproduction and I am done, my Hi-Fi quest for the perfect speaker for me has ended. Now I can just sit back and listen and enjoy. I still have to take new room measurements and adjust the Direc Live settings for the new crossover but it sounds so good as it is that I have not bothered with that yet. I think I put in 4 hours of listening just yesterday evening. They are sort of hypnotic. I guess to be honest, I probably will not expend any more energy on the merits of charge coupling and if it can be scientifically proven or not. I don't care if anyone doubts there are any benefits to it or not. I respect their opinion and they have a right to believe as they wish. For me, it simply works and the results have been way better then I imagined. Heck, I was very skeptical at first, but I wanted to find out if it was for real and it was on my stereo "geek" bucket list. I had an F5 tornado come about 20 miles from my house last Friday so one never knows how much time they have left on this Earth. Knowing that, I plan on listening to my hearts content, knowing that I am not missing out on anything. I am very grateful to have speaker friends that take the time to discuss speaker things and that in itself is joyful and beautiful. What started out as a thread full of crickets has turned into an amazing experience and I have learned a great deal. Thank you !!!

[Dave 2021]

No it refers to the application of metalized film, film foil and double sided construction for hi current applications.

The Solen Fast Caps 250 Vdc used by JBL are metalized aluminium with their particular approach to the dielectric and winding and winding tension. This is quite different to the approach taken by Mundorf. Some of their capacitors are like two end to end capacitors to reduce inductance and some are oil damped

I don’t know if you have used or compared the Solen Fast Caps subjectively with the Mundorf Supreme or the Silver Oil versions?

I have and l would describe the charge coupled Solen’s as subjectively very similar to the Mundorf Supreme capacitors. The stock Solen Fast Caps are subjectively quite a dirty noisy capacitor subjectively. The Silver Oil Mundorf have a less live presentation subjectively which l prefer with non dusted diaphragms. The Solen Charge Coupled capacitors exhibit an air of dynamic transient detail and contrast that l have not observed in any other capacitor. They are neutral in that there is no warmth or loudness effect found in some boutique capacitor brands. I would throw caution to the wind if your source equipment is not because at this level the flaws in the source equipment and the recordings became very revealing.

My appraisal was done with Pass labs X250.5 amplifier at the time. The differences are irrefutable on appropriate hifi equipment. I have since used Parasound Halo amplifiers which l think are a very good match for JBL systems we use around here. They have a complimentary Jfet input stage that was initially used in the first Mark Levinson amplifiers. They are relatively inexpensive and l think they are more neutral than the Pass Labs which have a subtle warmth and zing as you might expect from a mosfet based amplifier. But who’s complaining when Nelson Pass gives you an amp after a review!

The X250.5 amplifiers have a small amount of single ended class A bias from the negative supply rail and are biased in class A push pull up to low power levels and then operate as a conventional class AB amplifier up to full output using balanced super symmetry complimentary follower output stages. They only have two stages and they are exceedingly linear with relatively low global feedback. John Curl is no slouch as an amplifier designer and the prior version of my Parasound amp was in production for a very long time.

Why am l talking about amplifiers?

Because it’s all relative and as everything else gets better the signal chain becomes more important and is only as strong as its weakest link.


My past experience with Solen fast cap capacitors in crossover upgrades was so-so. Mind, you, I was using them as singles and not in a charged coupled configuration. For example, I once used Solen's to upgrade the capacitor's in a pair of Polk Audio SDA SRS 3.1 TL's. This resulted in a bit of sonic improvement overall, but not a jaw dropping, I can't believe what I am hearing sort of experience. The charged coupled Solen's, on the other hand, are quite a different story. Earlier this evening, I was listening to Beck's HD CD Sea Change and the song "Little Ones". I have had this CD since 2006 and listened to it numerous times. So, my wife was in the kitchen which is adjacent to my listening room (I know, not the optimal location but...) and then she walked out. I could hear water running from the faucet and was just about to get up and turn off the faucet and then kindly ask her to remember to not leave water running unattended in the future. But, the water running sound was actually being reproduced by the speakers and not the kitchen faucet. The thing is, the water running that I was hearing sounded like it was coming behind me and not from the front of the speakers. When I turned down the sound and went and checked the faucet, it was not running. I turned up the music again and heard water running again and in the back of the listening room. When a capacitor can cause seeming auditory hallucinations, you have something very special indeed.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I think you have an emotional connection with your tune when you play it.

That's all that matters.

Yoda

[Dave 2021]

I think you have an emotional connection with your tune when you play it.

That's all that matters.

Yoda


Emotion has something to do with it, sure, but if a speaker can evoke that type of emotion while playing music then it is doing what the designers intended. I visited a friend today who has a large collection of speakers that include JBL & Altec speakers. I was able to hear the JBL Aquarius for the first time and I thought they were actually very good. My friend also has a pair of JBL 4430's and I listened to them. Basically a stock pair with no modifications. Though he has a different amp and uses iTunes through his phone, I was easily able to discern the difference between stock vs. the modified, charge coupled 4430 crossover. The stock 4430's sounded heavy and lifeless without any upper extension. My friend has a pair of JBL Aquarius speakers on top of the 4430's and would switch between them for comparison. The Aquarius speakers presented a better sound overall, in that small room. I noticed his 4430's were missing the lively presence that I found in my 4430's after the crossover modification. I also listened to others including the Altec Model 17's with the 604 driver. I really liked the Altec Magnificent's the best though. The bass horn positions the woofer voice coil back to where the high frequency horns voice coil is located (fairly close) and it sounds like the timing and alignment is right on. The Alec's had a real nice sparkle and presence to them that just drew me in. What I also noticed is that now my 4430's have more of an "Altec" sound to them, or the Altec's had a sound that was similar to the revamped 4430's. That is alive, dynamic and sweet without being harsh. Anyway, a great day for me to spend time listening to other rigs. Would I love to own a pair of Magnificients? Heck yes! Am I still happy with the 4430's? Absolutely. I think to get the most out of the 4430's though, a good 18" subwoofer helps along with a constant directivity eq curve and modifying the crossover and class A amplification.

[Ian Mackenzie]

That’s a really good outcome.

Think subscribing to maximising you potential of your loudspeakers with small but collectively significant improvement is always going to improve your engagement.

I call this getting closer to the music. Ultimately the source recording and the playback loudspeakers and the listening room are the uncontrolled variables. If you can minimise the loudspeakers impact as far as practical in the listening room your pushing the envelope.

Can l suggest you consider elevating the 4430’s off the floor somewhat so the horn +woofer midpoint is at ear level. This is the design point of these systems as far as l am aware.

Last year l had someone enquire about active mode of the horn driver with active EQ.
I did some development modelling the compression driver in Linear X Leap and interestingly the compression driver looses loading toward 1000 hertz due to limitations of the horn. David Smith (4430 crossover designer) has commented on this as a roughness in the horn. This is due to impedance ripple which in turn modulates the crossover voltage drive to the horn compression driver.

After l lot of thought and trail and error l found a simple fix.

It can be done with a current source type of amplifier like some of Nelson Pass First Watt amplifiers.
But that’s an expensive stretch.

What l did was use a large coupling capacitor for protection from DC offsets with the power amplifier using long time constant so the driver sees a close to zero source impedance. This damps the impedance ripple. A value of 180uF or more is adequate. Do not use a low value protection capacitor.

The active crossover voltage drive is independent of impedance due to the low output impedance of the power amplifier and the large coupling capacitor.

The result is a much smoother response.

You can simply bypass a non polarised capacitor with charge coupled capacitor or 1/100 the valve of the non polarised capacitor.

For those interested pm me to be put on the list for a suitable active crossover and active CD EQ of the 4430 compression driver.

I think the results will be quite interesting.

[Kay Pirinha]

Hi Ian,

yes, in some studio monitor rooms even the heavy 4430's were installed hanging upside down from the ceiling and tilted to have the midpoint of both drivers on the listening axes. Otherwise the horn's staggered mounting wouldn't be of much sense.

Best regards!

[Dave 2021]

That’s a really good outcome.

Think subscribing to maximising you potential of your loudspeakers with small but collectively significant improvement is always going to improve your engagement.

I call this getting closer to the music. Ultimately the source recording and the playback loudspeakers and the listening room are the uncontrolled variables. If you can minimise the loudspeakers impact as far as practical in the listening room your pushing the envelope.

Can l suggest you consider elevating the 4430’s off the floor somewhat so the horn +woofer midpoint is at ear level. This is the design point of these systems as far as l am aware.

Last year l had someone enquire about active mode of the horn driver with active EQ.
I did some development modelling the compression driver in Linear X Leap and interestingly the compression driver looses loading toward 1000 hertz due to limitations of the horn. David Smith (4430 crossover designer) has commented on this as a roughness in the horn. This is due to impedance ripple which in turn modulates the crossover voltage drive to the horn compression driver.

After l lot of thought and trail and error l found a simple fix.

It can be done with a current source type of amplifier like some of Nelson Pass First Watt amplifiers.
But that’s an expensive stretch.

What l did was use a large coupling capacitor for protection from DC offsets with the power amplifier using long time constant so the driver sees a close to zero source impedance. This damps the impedance ripple. A value of 180uF or more is adequate. Do not use a low value protection capacitor.

The active crossover voltage drive is independent of impedance due to the low output impedance of the power amplifier and the large coupling capacitor.

The result is a much smoother response.

You can simply bypass a non polarised capacitor with charge coupled capacitor or 1/100 the valve of the non polarised capacitor.

For those interested pm me to be put on the list for a suitable active crossover and active CD EQ of the 4430 compression driver.

I think the results will be quite interesting.

Hi Ian,

I actually experimented a bit with room placement, especially height for quite some time. What I found, for my particular room setup, was that the 4430's sounded their best (this was before the charge coupled crossover) about 6 inches off the floor. I did try them at about 15 inches off the floor which put the horn/woofer junction pretty close to ear level. But, I lost some mid and lower bass. Unfortunately, my current listening room and speaker location is certainly less than ideal, but the only way I can set the speakers up. I have also sat on the floor which gets my ears to the right level and there is not too much of a difference that I can tell in overall sonic presentation. I also have them turned in a bit which helps.

I have also been experimenting (using the crossover in my preamp) with just running the powered subwoofer from 80 hertz down and the 4430's 80 hertz and up (switching between 12dB & 24dB cut off settings). Some music, I actually prefer the 4430's with the 80hz and up crossover in as it actually cleans up the lower octave and for some reason helps with the horn as well. I have Direc Live on my preamp and my custom curve drops down around 30 hz, bumps up a bit at 100 hz, then gradually drops down until the 1000 hz area. From there I gradually increase it to the top of my in room response which is about 18.6 kHz. I really haven't noticed any major distortion or problems around the 1000 hz area. Perhaps it is because I have that frequency spectrum dialed down a bit. Honestly, for any speaker I have ever owned, I always dial down the mid frequencies from 900 hz through about 2.5 kHz. It may be because my amplifiers work well with this speaker. Or a high damping factor? Not sure but I can usually sense when something sounds off. I am interested in your work around for this to see if it makes any improvement but right now everything sounds so good I am in the camp of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Right now the next project is waiting for the super q's and then measuring the L-Pads so I can install fixed Mills resistors. Just hope there isn't a long wait on those Mills!

[Dave 2021]

It can be done with a current source type of amplifier like some of Nelson Pass First Watt amplifiers.
But that’s an expensive stretch.

[/QUOTE]

It can be done but then one would be missing out on the strongest part of the 4430's and that my friend is feeding them gigantic amounts of clean power. I think Nelson Pass is indeed a legend in the audio community. But, the First Watt amps will only suffice at low to moderate listening levels. I feel the 4430's need lots of clean power and with that, they are able to produce concert levels of distortion free music reproduction. I like listening to them at low levels too, but I love the way they can hit with dynamic realism when called upon. I can fairly easily hit 100 dB+ continuous with insane peaks hitting 112 dB+ in my listening room. I believe they can get one very close to what the artist intended for their listeners to hear. I would love to hear them through one of the bigger Pass Labs amps you have. I bet that combo sounds amazing! You are friends with Nelson so tell him I will review a pair of his mono block amps with these speakers :)!:D:applaud:

[markd51]

It can be done with a current source type of amplifier like some of Nelson Pass First Watt amplifiers.
But that’s an expensive stretch.



It can be done but then one would be missing out on the strongest part of the 4430's and that my friend is feeding them gigantic amounts of clean power. I think Nelson Pass is indeed a legend in the audio community. But, the First Watt amps will only suffice at low to moderate listening levels. I feel the 4430's need lots of clean power and with that, they are able to produce concert levels of distortion free music reproduction. I like listening to them at low levels too, but I love the way they can hit with dynamic realism when called upon. I can fairly easily hit 100 dB+ continuous with insane peaks hitting 112 dB+ in my listening room. I believe they can get one very close to what the artist intended for their listeners to hear. I would love to hear them through one of the bigger Pass Labs amps you have. I bet that combo sounds amazing! You are friends with Nelson so tell him I will review a pair of his mono block amps with these speakers :)!:D:applaud:[/QUOTE]

About all I can add, and say, is, "you're darn tootin".

I initially powered my pair with a McIntosh MC-2105 Amp for a few months. Sure, they sounded nice. The 2105 is a nice warm rich sounding amp.

Then I bought the Bryston Monoblocks. Not good at first, the Brystons needed a hell of a lot of time for break in oddly. Like almost 200 hours of play, and further burn in. Sound was very "thin".
The Mac was a better Amp until the Brystons settled down, and "warmed up" some.

It's still a very neutral sounding Amp, I wouldn't call their sound "warm", but they aren't strident, harsh, shrill, raw, or unrefined.

Bench tested at the factory at 676/674watts at 8ohms, there's surely no shortage of power, and I once tested that power on two separate occasions, and yeah, you're hearing a system that would sound much better in a much much larger room, like 25'x 40', just insanity in a normal sized Living Room!

But I did also recognize the noise floor dropped quite dramatically, that I didn't need in 99.9 percent of my listening sessions to need 100db plus to feel "wholly fulfilled!"

Everything then came together just so right, good cabling throughout, pretty decent digital and analog sources, music emerged from a very good level of "blackness".

In very little way, did the 4430 then sound like some cheap Speaker.

The Brystons handle the 4430's and never break a sweat. Most times, they are like Mac Amps, run fairly cool. But take a "trip to Mars", yeah they begin to warm up some, they didn't run Cooling Fins down both sides of the Amps for nothing. But surely not Krell FPB600, or Mark Levinson #33 hot, being that they are Class A/B.

Pull out some vintage German Grammaphon (sp) records, I have a lot of them, was once a fantastic treasure find, and be immersed with such a smile at how pure, how clean, how I was hearing everything so coherently, and coming out of dead silence. Yeah, the Brystons have some very nice specs! They sent me a beauty of a pair of Amps, and am happy with what they do.

And of course, the source components matter a lot. Garbage in, garbage out. I don't have real crazy money invested in my vinyl playback system, but will honestly say about $8,500 all told90127.

[markd51]

Lots of little doo dads jacked the price with my vinyl front end, and much not seen in a mere picture.

Like a $3,000 ZYX Cartridge, a $600 Isolation Base, Phono Stages, a $1,000 Phono Cable, on and on, I could spend a large paragraph with all the tweaks, upgrades, custom mods.

As always, it's a continual "work in progress", is one ever done? LOL

It was always my creed that to get the best sound from JBL, feed them a good clean signal from the Amps, and sources.
That they are all influenced by the "quality" they get fed. And yeah, sometimes that can equate to $$$$$.

No, the 4430 isn't a pair of $60,000-$70,000 Dynaudio Reference Speakers, but they can provide pretty good sound if you work at what comes before them.

To add, this simple set-up I shown above is far from optimal, was just for illustrative purposes was all.

[Kay Pirinha]

Any speaker is best driven by an amp with an output impedance as low as possible to get maximum control on the bass driver. Current source amplifiers, which means high output impedance, is BS. The lack of control results in something that might be felt as more bass, but this bass sound is without any definition and punch.

Best regards!

[Dave 2021]

I finally completed the crossovers for the 4430's!  I had been using the stock woofer inductors with the charge coupled configuration and new inductors for the horn.  After waiting for 3 months for the Erse Super Q's to come in, I decided to try the Jantzen "P" Core inductors which have a slightly lower DCR then the Q's.  I really wasn't expecting to be able to hear a difference but it was noticeable and tightened up the upper bass and lower midrange with improved clarity.  Who would have thought?  Then I noticed that the horn baffle board that connects to the main baffle was slightly pulled away and bowed out.  I removed the bi-radial horn diffuser and replaced the four screws with longer wood screws that were able to pull the pre baffle back into shape and fit securely to the main baffle.  And this made a detectable sonic difference as well.  The upper frequencies sounded  more defined and the projected image came more into focus.  Plus, the gap at the pre baffle may have been letting air out of the cabinet instead of through the ports.  So, all in all I am very pleased with all the modifications and feel the 4430's to be an excellent speaker capable of engaging sonic reproduction at both low and high volumes.  Now, if I could just get my hands on a pair of M9500's!  

[Dave 2021]

About all I can add, and say, is, "you're darn tootin".

I initially powered my pair with a McIntosh MC-2105 Amp for a few months. Sure, they sounded nice. The 2105 is a nice warm rich sounding amp.

Then I bought the Bryston Monoblocks. Not good at first, the Brystons needed a hell of a lot of time for break in oddly. Like almost 200 hours of play, and further burn in. Sound was very "thin".
The Mac was a better Amp until the Brystons settled down, and "warmed up" some.

It's still a very neutral sounding Amp, I wouldn't call their sound "warm", but they aren't strident, harsh, shrill, raw, or unrefined.

Bench tested at the factory at 676/674watts at 8ohms, there's surely no shortage of power, and I once tested that power on two separate occasions, and yeah, you're hearing a system that would sound much better in a much much larger room, like 25'x 40', just insanity in a normal sized Living Room!

But I did also recognize the noise floor dropped quite dramatically, that I didn't need in 99.9 percent of my listening sessions to need 100db plus to feel "wholly fulfilled!"

Everything then came together just so right, good cabling throughout, pretty decent digital and analog sources, music emerged from a very good level of "blackness".

In very little way, did the 4430 then sound like some cheap Speaker.

The Brystons handle the 4430's and never break a sweat. Most times, they are like Mac Amps, run fairly cool. But take a "trip to Mars", yeah they begin to warm up some, they didn't run Cooling Fins down both sides of the Amps for nothing. But surely not Krell FPB600, or Mark Levinson #33 hot, being that they are Class A/B.

Pull out some vintage German Grammaphon (sp) records, I have a lot of them, was once a fantastic treasure find, and be immersed with such a smile at how pure, how clean, how I was hearing everything so coherently, and coming out of dead silence. Yeah, the Brystons have some very nice specs! They sent me a beauty of a pair of Amps, and am happy with what they do.

And of course, the source components matter a lot. Garbage in, garbage out. I don't have real crazy money invested in my vinyl playback system, but will honestly say about $8,500 all told90127.[/QUOTE]


Sorry it took me so long to comment but very nice system and those Brystons look awesome. And 676 watts at 8 ohms per mono block is like having front row tickets to the concert of your choice. And I totally agree that quality equipment upstream really makes a huge difference in what the 4430's sound like. My friend has a pair of 4430's that have been unmodified and he is running them on an old Sansui receiver hooked to an iPhone. Totally different sound and not very engaging.

[Earl K]

Thanks for your comments and updates Dave.

I know from experience how neat it is to hear differences in electronics ( good or bad ).

It really does make audio life interesting ( btw; I biamp my home-brews with an older generation Bryston 2BLP-pro doing the top end duties > I like it a lot ;) )..

:)

[Ian Mackenzie]

Hi Dave,

Thankyou for the update. This is a great journey and it’s really worked out nicely.

You seem very happy with how it’s turning out. I

I’m banked up with projects at the moment but a 4430 clone is on my bucket list. I have a set of 2344 horns and 2425 drivers in my stash and must get them out. Many years ago l had some 2344 horns running and l used to enjoy the James Morrison Live in Paris album. The 4430 horn / driver gives the trumpet a nice warm glow that is so engaging.

Great thread.

Please keep us informed of any further thought or developments.



Ian

[Mr. Widget]

Thanks for your comments and updates Dave.

I know from experience how neat it is to hear differences in electronics ( good or bad ).

It really does make audio life interesting ( btw; I biamp my home-brews with an older generation Bryston 2BLP-pro doing the top end duties > I like it a lot ;) )..

:)Yes, thank you for the update... always interesting to follow people's journeys and watch the evolution.
It is great to hear these success stories after folks put in so much effort into their systems.


Widget

[markd51]

I had to of course look back through this thread. Being a 4430 owner, can anyone blame me? LOL

I know I speak flamboyantly at times, but good Amplification is one good place to start. JBL's, like many other world class speakers like quality power. I'm not so sure Guitar Center can provide me that.

My greatest wish for JBL as I write this.

That much, if not all major production returns to North America. Time to yank this company from the ICU.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Which pre amp power amp do you currently use?

[markd51]

Edit-delete

[Dave 2021]

Hey Mark (Moe), how did you get your 4430 horns so shiny? I can see from the pictures that they are super minty. Did you use Armor All? Mine are nice but not that shiny. And after I looked at the picture you sent (I am taking the liberty to assume those are your speakers with the beautiful Bryston's) I moved my 4430's closer together and boom, I was brought even closer to musical bliss. I have found that the position of the 4430's in the room is extremely important to get the very best of what they can do.

Much thanks to everyone who helped me this journey. Ian (Yoda) who heled me with the charged coupled crossover and walked me through the correct way to hook up the L-Pads. BTW, I have decided to keep the L-Pads in. Seems that I enjoy having the flexibility to adjust the high and mid frequencies depending on the local humidity, how the music was mastered, etc. It is Kay who corresponded immediately after I posted pictures of my crossover and brought up the whole L-Pad issue. Had it not been for her speedy response, I would probably still have them wired incorrectly and would be missing out on the joys of a properly connected L-Pad. Thank you Kay! Has anyone noticed that if you take the Bi-Radial horns and stand them upright and then (imagine) cutting a cross section of one half of the horn, that they are very similar to the symmetry of Don Keele's curved line arrays that were offered through Parts Express? I find that very interesting. I know Don designed the Bi-Radial horn for JBL.

No one asked me, but I am using am Emotiva XMC-1 preamp which has Direc Live and 2 Emotiva XPA-1 monoblocks that do 600 watts each at 8 ohms (1000 at 4 ohms) in class A/B and with a switch on the front panel do 60 watts each in Class A. I have been amazed at how good these speakers do even at low volumes, like even 70 dB, they reproduce all the intricate details of music. Percussion instruments like drums, cymbals, bells etc, all sound like they are there in the room. Violins, pianos, guitar and wind instruments including trumpets and sax are all accurately produced like there is a live presentation. There is something these speakers do that I have not witnessed elsewhere in speakers in this price range (pre-owned). The timing and how each instrument arrives, presents outstanding spatial sound cues that give a sense of realism. I have had many speakers and attended several RMAF shows (when I lived in Colorado) and yes, there are some spectacular speakers out there. But I never thought I would be able to experience what I hear now in my own home for a tiny fraction of what some of the boutique speakers go for and that I was spell bound by. The funny thing is that I used to be totally opposed to horns because I thought they sounded shrill and harsh and too forward. The 4430's are never harsh and even at high volumes are well behaved. Part of the reason that I like to throw a lot of power at them is because they just keep sounding better and magnify the sound without distortion.

But, in the beginning, they did not do what they do now. The modifications like new and lighter woofer cones, new speaker terminals for the horn and woofer (the stock ones are so bad I am wondering why JBL engineers allowed such an abomination), new charge couple crossover (including all new quality inductors) that totally by passes that stupid bi amp switch in the back, and new heavy gauge wire to the woofer and horn. I would love to hear from anyone else who has made these changes and what they are hearing. Add an 18" high efficiency subwoofer (mine is 99 dB) to the mix and the 4430's are very close to the 4435's but you can dial in the low bass by adjusting the subwoofer. I have found that is where most recordings differ, in the lower regions. So just by increasing the gain to the subwoofer through a remote control, I can dial in the bass sweet spot from my chair to adjust for any music I am listening to. Seems that the mid and high frequency stays fairly constant in most recordings and I can use the L-Pads if need be. I also use Direc Live and have the eq set with a Constant Directivity curve. This in itself is (I feel) absolutely necessary to get the right balance and output from the drivers and compensate for room interactions. It really helps and you can adjust the sound based on your preferences. The beautiful thing is that the sound signature of the 4430's is very easy to sculpt. They are somewhat neutral and accurate reproducers, designed that way, as studio monitors. The wide directivity of these speakers is something I value as being able to act as almost an electrostatic panel speaker but have the impact and dynamics of a more conventional speaker cone speaker I have owned no other speaker that has been this enjoyable! Thanks again to all those who helped and thank you for this Audio Heritage group!

[markd51]

Honestly, I can't recall using any products on the Horns, and if I did, it sure wasn't Armor All.

I abandoned the use of Armor All back around 1990. I'll explain why. I once used it to shine up the Dashboard on my 6 month old 1990 Dodge-Cummins Pickup Truck, and the Armor All made the paint begin to badly flake off.

Yes, how pathetic that this Dash was merely painted. Brought it to the dealer, they said there was one or two options at their supposed Paint-Trim Shop.

Either totally remove the Dash and replace with new, and/or remove the Dash, re-paint, and replace. I chose neither option.

Went to a auto paint supply shop, had a few aerosol spray cans mixed up of the correct color, as well as a can of Primer, and surface prep, but the paint was lacquer.

I stripped the dash as far as possible, masked "everything" inside the vehicle, I spent a weekend just doing prep. The application came out beautiful, flawless, but dull, as that's typical of Lacquer.

I knew I could not dare use another silicone product like Armor All, but a light went on, and what did I use?

3 Coats of Future Floor Wax!

The Dash looked fantastic, in fact too good, that sometimes the sun reflecting off of it, or reflecting onto the Windshield was blinding. Got in the habit of wearing Polarized Sun Glasses! But I sure got a lot of compliments at how nice it looked, and many would ask what I used?

Or course I'd never use such on any other vehicle for such, but was forced to use such in this particular instance.

If I did put something on those Horns, it was then likely a water based, and safer to use Trim-Interior Protectant from AutoGeek, perhaps their "Blackfire Brand", and not a petrol based product which Armor All and the like commonly are.

Yeah, my speakers were really so clean, and un-molested when I got them, supposedly having never been used in a studio, yet bought by some high end company who used them in a Conference Room.

Only thing I had to change, was they installed an attractive Silver-Grey but of course incorrect Grill Cover material, not stock of course, they had to go, and back in the day some years back I was able to acquire 2 yards of the correct authentic JBL Blue material from Zilch here (RIP)

Hope my ramblings have some worth. LOL

[markd51]

As for L-Pad settings, that's something I didn't toy with much with my 4430's, preferring to leave both set to flat.

Listening room acoustics will of course be different in all applications to custom tailor their sound some.