JBL 4331 rebuild using 2445J and JBL woofer - would this be a good idea? Help pls!

[Mazza]

Dear all,
I have a pair of beaten up JBL 4503A-1 enclosures...


89744



89746



89748



89747



89745


Only five attachments per post so to be continued.... :D

[Mazza]

And I have some nice 2445J 2" CD's on 2385a bi-radial horns...


89749



89750


That seem to measure really great...



89752



89753

[Mazza]

I'm confident I can passively EQ the 2445J's and 2385a's to a really sweet 800hz high pass....



89757



89756



And the CD & horn will fit inside the cabinet above the woofer....


89758



89759



89760

[Mazza]

Plus I have some 2226's and E130's at a good price locally.....


89761



89762




So my question is would I even do this?


Any and all suggestions, ideas, past experiences, criticisms etc, etc are appreciated!


Cheers!

[Riley Casey]

Just as an exercise in making the best sounding speaker system from your existing set of boxes and drivers? Put the 2226s in which ever pair of boxes is tuned the lowest. Put the E130s in the other pair of boxes. Plug up all unneeded holes for unused horns. Stack with the 2226 on the floor and the 130 box on top of that. Attach the horn driver combo to a board and to prop up the driver for aiming and set it atop the 130 box. Triamp with crossover points at 200 hz and 1khz. Tune to taste with the EQ in the DSP crossover. Oh, and strap the whole stack together if you plan to listen loud.




Plus I have some 2226's and E130's at a good price locally.....

So my question is would I even do this?


Any and all suggestions, ideas, past experiences, criticisms etc, etc are appreciated!


Cheers!

[1audiohack]

Funny you should ask Mazza;

I bought a pair of these boxes that had been hacked out to use a 2380/2446 and a 2226. They didn’t sound half bad.

I rebuilt the baffle board and loaded them with 2235’s, 2420’s on 2312’s with 2308 lenses and 2405’s. First passive them active.

They sounded better with the 2380’s, by far. :(

I am with Riley on this one.

Barry.

[Mazza]

Hi Barry,
Thanks heaps for your input. Did you have a build thread for your restoration?
Thanks!

[Mazza]

Thanks for your thoughts Riley.

I don't have quite the space to accommodate your suggestion but would be great for a concert outside no doubt! :D

Another idea I had was to do the cinema 2673 by rotating my cabs and mounting the 2385's on top???


89772


I also found a supplier for the MA-15woofer clamps on eBay (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/311918169437?mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11051.m43.l1123&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=c3f324060f314088b6497fea986c5d83&bu=43147435439&osub=-1%7E1&crd=20211020130924&segname=11051&sojTags=ch%3Dch%2Cbu%3Dbu%2Cosub%3Dosub%2Ccrd%3Dcr d%2Csegname%3Dsegname%2Cchnl%3Dmkcid)...


89773

:banana:

[RMC]

Personnaly, would do two pairs. One better mannered using rebuilt 4331 cab with 2226/2445 (you've already shown the way you would do to extend its vhf response). The other pair using the E130/EV DH1A you have to make noise, and adding similar vhf eq to also extend its response. Then having two pairs for different purposes and making use of the gear you already have = increased flexibility.

Richard

[Mazza]

Hi RMC,
Many thanks for your suggestions. I agree - more speakers = more happiness! :D

Unfortunately I only have the single EV CD/horn combo. I've long contemplated a killer centre channel with that HF section over a vintage 15" I also have in my stash....




89778





89777 (https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/329096-semi-le_calc-calculator-advanced-inductance-model-incorporating-semi-inductance-post6000379.html)





89779




Cheers!

[RMC]

Hi Mazza,

Yup, speakers = the more the merrier!

Big Celestion driver you have there, haven't seen this one before.

I'm not trying to steer you in a direction you don't want to go, however you only need a single EV combo to make another but different pair of boxes with your E130... Looks tempting to me. Other option maybe a subwoofer with the Celestion?

A killer centre channel has its merits, but on the other hand it involves integration work into a system, e.g. horn coverage pattern/directivity and possible overlapping issues, phase and acoustic centers, etc.

If you don't mind this extra work then why not. I sure won't blame you for that as i tend to like seeing people who show different things than the routine. Have fun.

Richard

[Mike Caldwell]

For what it's worth I always felt the DH1a and it's variants sounded better than a 2445.

[Riley Casey]

That was my observation after having run about two dozen DeltaMax clone boxes as a B system for about a decade. The four boxes that had 2445s rather than the stock DH1s were clearly rather harsh sounding at high levels. The same sort of high mid harshness I've heard in JBL 2" drivers since starting out with 2440s on 2350 radial horns in the 70s. I think it's been widely noted that the phase plugs on both the 2440/41s and the 2445s were not as well thought out as some other 2" drivers. Sounded great with loud rock and roll where some kinds of distortion were a feature rather than a bug but less so in any other kind of music. JBLs one inch compression drivers were notably better in this regard. DH1s come up on Ebay fairly regularly if you want a match. Just avoid the low budget Chinese replacement EV diaphragms. You can go thru a dozen of those and not find a matching pair.


For what it's worth I always felt the DH1a and it's variants sounded better than a 2445.

[Mazza]

G'day Riley
Thanks for your thoughts in the 2445.

A few questions:
I wonder when you say high levels are we talking in a home environment or sound reinforcement context? I'll be using these for home audio.

What horn were you using and what is a DeltaMax clone box please?

Cheers.

[Riley Casey]

As you suspect Mazza the DeltaMax speakers I described were a 'PA' speaker, your basic 15" woofer in a vented box with a 2" throat compression driver for high end. It was widely recognized as a sort of best of class design but in a world where weight counts for as much as sound quality it didn't quite achieve market dominance ( it was absurdly heavy for its size). While the EV DH1 had a very slightly longer 'nose' or throat length from the diaphragm to the throat end it's improvement in sound quality was apparent pretty much without regard to the horn it was used on and conversely the 2440/41/45 drivers tended to exhibit their 3-6khz ( that's where I hear it most prominently, others may have a different sense of it ). I've been using the JBL 2" drivers since the 1970s starting with 2440s on the old 2350/2355 metal radial horns and venetian blind lenses right up thru 2441s on DDS horns on KF850s and assorted stage monitors and eventually 2445s on JBL 2380/85 horns. They all exhibited a similar distortion or in hifi terminology a 'confused sound' in the upper mid that the DH1s and TADs didn't have. Moving the crossover frequency up to the 1600 hz range would allow operation at slightly higher levels before the effect was apparent but it never went away entirely.

Can you hear this at living room hifi levels? Yes/No/Maybe. I'd imagine that depends largely on what levels you listen at and the kinds of music you listen to. TLDR version - If you already have a DH1 and don't have any 2445s as yet you may be happier finding another DH1 for a custom speaker build than going for 2445s.

[Riley Casey]

Hah, just scrolled up and reminded myself you already had a pair of 2445s. Forget I said anything.

[Mazza]

Hi Riley,
Great information, many thanks. I am very fond of and respect EV product greatly.

In fact it was a chance purchase of a pair of SX80's for $60 that got me hooked on horn loaded speakers. Their relative control of the HF directivity had me hooked from the moment I listened to them and their build quality is commendable. I still use these in my workshop.


89801



89802



89803




My current home theatre main speakers were inspired by them and use the same (Eminence made?) EV8L woofer.


89804



89805

[Mazza]

Regarding the 2385 I understand that it is a diffraction horn from a different era and therefore sufferers from higher order modes (HOM) as SPL rises as set out in this paper by Dr Geddes (http://www.gedlee.com/Papers/Sound%20Quality%20Improvements%20in%20Compression% 20Driver%20Systems.pdf).



I completely accept your experience with this horn but I do have great respect for the 2385 as a horn for use at home, Strauss (http://www.strauss-electroacoustics.com/produkte-en/mastering-monitors/se-mf-2.1) couldn't be wrong, right?


89806



89807



The Calampos (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjX5u_xj-zzAhUNXSsKHXH7CPgQFnoECD8QAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.humblehomemadehifi.com%2Fdown load%2FHumble%2520Homemade%2520Hifi_Calpamos.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1HsWMI3itdNhsHYPdXXXl0) also uses this device with great results, albeit both use a different CD....


89808



On this basis, for hifi use I'm excited to try the 2385 and the 2445 with my new woofers!

:D

[sebackman]

The 2445 falls off pretty steeply after 10k as most 2" drivers. You can use the high sensitivity to compensate for most of that but from my experience the result may be less than stellar. 2-way systems with 2" drivers are difficult to get working for HiFi. Especially with the older horns IMHO.

I would suggest to add a UHF (077/045) driver on top for HiFi use. Can be done by simple 6db XO with a capacitor adding were there 2" starts dropping.

I also suggest to take a closer look at 2380 as an alternative, as pointed out by Berry.

Or get a 1,5" driver (aka 2447, 2450SL or 2451) to geed a modern waveguide (JBL #5006815, $45) and be done. No UHF needed and if you add a "SL" (coated) diaphragm you will put most other systems on the grand stand. XO at about 1kHz.

If you are into experimenting you can put an alu dust cap on your 2226's to change the higher mid and test.

Kind regards
//Rob

[Mazza]

Hi Rob,
Thanks heaps for your suggestions.

Did you see my earlier posts in this thread for measured frequency response for my 2445's and 2385's?

89809



89810



I believe I'll be able to passive EQ these into a nice extended flat response, with a little house curve to taste...


89811



89812


What do you think? :dont-know:

[Mike Caldwell]

I'm going say for home the 60 X 40 2385 horn may be a little narrow, the 2380 at 90 X 40 or even the harder to find 2382 that is a 120 X 40.

I use the 2385's in some of my double 12 PA cabinets with either a EV NDYM-1 or ND6 driver.
Those drivers are basically a neo DH1a driver, at least on paper they show a bit more output
than the DH1a.

After looking up the Strauss speakers those are 2380 horns, I'm going to say
the wood grain speakers have 2382 horns.

[Mazza]

G'day Mike,
Thanks heaps for your thoughts. Actually the Calpamos use the P-Audio clone of the 2380.

Click here (http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/download/Humble%20Homemade%20Hifi_Calpamos.pdf)to see the detailed write up on this system including some listening impressions from the designer....


So now I have a new question, what to do with these 2402H ? :confused:


89836



89837



89838


I grabbed the pair for a very good price. They need new diaphragms but are otherwise in good condition.

Can anyone advise what systems these were used in please? I searched the web but couldn't find much info on them.

They do fit perfectly in the tweeter cut outs either side of the main horn opening in my cabinets.....

:)


Cheers.

[engineerjoe]

I'm a big fan of JBL 2" drivers for PA use. I can understand posts where people say they can be fatigued by them. I run mine thru 31 band eqs with different settings for each diaphragm used. I found one used driver went much higher than any other one I have.
Anyways, I would share again, that the Selenium drivers I got before sounded much sweeter to my ears. They didn't need much EQ. Might be perfect here?
They are mounted on EV horns BTW. I don't have any test equipment other than my ears.
(click this link)
JBL 2441 vs 2445 vs 2446 (audioheritage.org) (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?31035-JBL-2441-vs-2445-vs-2446&p=424939&highlight=selenium+2%26quot%3B+drivers#post424939)
Look down the page just one post to see them posted by me.
If you do go with the older 2445 or especially lower quality diaphragms, some simple EQ settings can help your ears survive the onslaught.
I would state certain freq cuts like 1.2k, 2k, 4k, or boosts above 10k, but I feel like that wouldn't apply to every example. Having a good eq is a great way to keep your ears from harassment. I find the same cuts I have made in live performances, can still apply in my house. JBL 2" drivers seem to excel in certain freq, where they will fatigue your ears. So you may have to cut those to taste as needed. Start very small like 2 or 3 db at any offending freq.
I seem to like 2k down quite a bit, like 6db. If your EQ quality varies from mine, you may find any quoted numbers don't apply here. A EQ from Yamaha for example doesn't cut like some others IMO.
Once you start playing with the EQ, you may find you have to tune for each recording. Some like a tight jazz sound with mild midrange for most material, where some rock records will sound much different.
If you go from a Def Leppard cd to a Celine Dion, I wouldn't expect the same tuning to please all listeners.
I also should update that post, I have found the 2453 drivers are now my new desired driver. Until I get some new D2 drivers to test that is.
I moved the smaller 2432 drivers to monitors and are pleased in how accurate they are and how they cut thru. I'll always like the 2441, 2445, 2446, and 2450/1 drivers. Just tired of lugging them!
Sorry for the rambling. Love to talk drivers and learn more from experts.

[Mazza]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts engineerjoe! Much appreciated. :)

[sebackman]

Hi Mazza,

I did see the measurement and the scale make it seem like rather ok but in reality you are about 10-15 db down above 10k. Typical for a 2" driver with that phasing plug/exit. That is a lot to even out in a passive filter.

Typically I would recommend a 1,5" driver with an SL diaphragm with a modern waveguide or to add a UHF unit as mentioned. There are very few passive JBL 2-way systems with 2" drivers for HiFi use and with 1,5 drivers being better suited and priced the same that may prove an easier way to go.

I also agree with Mike that 60x40 is a bit on the narrow side for home use.

Sometimes we spend more money trying to use what we have rather than sell and start over. Getting new diaphragms for the 075's is expensive end up taking more money compared to the 1,5" route . It is always better with fewer drivers.

I find that the best drivers for HiFi use are the 2447 (heavy), 2450SL, 2451SL, 2452SL and of course the 476 in various forms.

2453 (SL) as mentioned by engineerjoe is good little driver but it does not fit all horns. They have a short phasing plug that creates a dramatic dip around 10k on some horns. i had to make a spacer to fit them on some waveguides. There is a thread here on LH if you search. Member "nyt" did some good work there.
2453H-SL on STX825 waveguide over 2265g-1 center channel (audioheritage.org) (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?39249-2453H-SL-on-STX825-waveguide-over-2265g-1-center-channel&highlight=2453H-sl).

Kind regards
//Rob

[engineerjoe]

Hi Mazza,



2453 (SL) as mentioned by engineerjoe is good little driver but it does not fit all horns. They have a short phasing plug that creates a dramatic dip around 10k on some horns. i had to make a spacer to fit them on some waveguides. There is a thread here on LH if you search. Member "nyt" did some good work there.
2453H-SL on STX825 waveguide over 2265g-1 center channel (audioheritage.org) (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?39249-2453H-SL-on-STX825-waveguide-over-2265g-1-center-channel&highlight=2453H-sl).

Kind regards
//Rob

My main PA uses all JBL with 2258s for lows, 2262 for mid, and now 2453 for highs. I have mainly 2 models of JBL waveguides on the 2453 being the 60x40 model and the 120x60? model. 2 cabs are JBL AM7212/64s (replaced hf drivers).
All other cabs are home made by me for light weight (I'm disabled).
I play with the active crossovers in my Crown amps and put them at 200hz and 1250hz for now. I made a mistake and set one rack at 1500hz mid to highs for the last show!
The low cabs seem to have a hollow tone somewhere in the 240hz range. I was going to add bracing and still haven't.
Anyways, I was wondering if you had any thoughts about the crossover point choices? I read a lot about using the 18"s for sub duty only and crossing over somewhere at or just over 100hz. I wanted maximum clarity out of the mids and didn't wish to push them lower.
I have acquired some used JBL 2251s for possible use down the road in a all in one flyable cab to still be built. I considered using all the same crossover points universally in a combined system.
I apologize to OP if this takes this post off course now. I am very happy with the performance of those light 2453s against the older 2445/6 and 2450s so far.

[Mazza]

G'day gents, thanks for your inputs.

My build is for a home setting so I'm not chasing max spl. These parts will be coasting in my setup, I rarely listen above 90db.

Regarding the roll off or mass break point for the compression driver and horn - this is a feature of CD mounted to a constant directivity horn and the filtering of this in a passive network is quite straight forward. Its also called top-octave compensation.

Wayne Parham has written a series of terrific white papers about this here (https://www.pispeakers.com/contents.html).

With regards to crossover points, the most important for me in a home setting is ensuring a smooth transition between woofer and tweeter (or whatever) throughout the passband of the system.

Dr Geddes has a great white paper on this and how to interpret polar maps here (http://www.gedlee.com/Papers/directivity.pdf).

We want to hand off the narrowing off axis response of the woofer seamlessly to the horn CD combination so that we achieve a smooth on and off axis response like this. ..



89874



Here you can see the crossover is around 1.6khz. This is the measured response of a previous build of mine using modern parts. It turned out sounding very sweet indeed (confirmation bias?? :D )....



89873



Cheers.

[RMC]

Hi Mazza,

RE Post # 22 (2402), Can anyone advise what systems these were used in please? I searched the web but couldn't find much info on them.

I've seen a number in my JBL documents, but too many for me to list here.

As a starting point you can look at the attached list of Cabaret Series models using the 2402. Its also used in various older JBL models i saw.

Richard

89876

[Mazza]

That's wonderful, thank you Richard!

[Ian Mackenzie]

Have use used the 4331 in its original form?

What is your opinion of the stock 4331?

What are you trying to achieve?

I have heard a stock 4331 set up by Greg Timbers with room EQ REW and raised on crates with an active crossover using customer settings.

We thought performed very well after listening to the DD67000.

I would be careful about using a SEOS horn unless you are familiar with how to set them up in a room. They work best placed in the corners of a room.

But that may not make the bass sound its best.

Why not borrow a pair of 2311 horns and try your two inch drivers for direct comparison?

[Mazza]

Wow Ian - DD67000 that's quite some exhalted company the the 4331 can keep up with!

The DD66000 inspired me to convert my beloved Klipsch KG 5.5's (https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/168930-kg-55-update-25way-conversion/&do=findComment&comment=2405749)to a 2.5way after I inspected the crossover schematic.

I would ideally completely restore the old ladies. Especially seeing as they are that good comparatively.

And no I've not ever heard not seen an all original 4331 or 4333.

I'm in two minds about my way forward with the cabinets. Finding the original mid horns and CD's seems like a long shot in Australia or for a reasonable price anywhere these days. The crossovers even more unlikely.

I can mostly recreate and redesign the crossovers from original schematics and my own measurement rig.

I've toyed with using the modern JBL HL1425 with the D220ti as a near alternative tho not exact replacement to stay close to the original design and use the 2502's to again get close if not completely original.

I'd then use the 2445's with the 2226's to create a copy cinema series 4507 clone in a new enclosure.

:dont-know:

[Ian Mackenzie]

The 4331 isn't a DD67000. It just much sounded better than we expected in comparison.

This is the thing.

A very good loudspeaker can sound so so if not set up so it has a fighting change.
Even some dated legacy systems still shine when set up in the hands of an expert.

The 4331 has stock original components.

The system was placed in two milk crates central in the room well away from room boundaries. Something to bare in mind is these low boy systems have the woofer and horn relatively close to the floor. Raising them well off the floor does reduce the influence of the floor particularly the bass and midrange. These monitors in use were used above ear height in control rooms and were the industry standard for quite a while.

We tried a number of active crossover settings and measurements taken with REW at 5 different positions. Unfortunately I don't recall what Greg settled on but they were closer to 4th order acoustic slopes. Some room correction was applied with DEQX. What you end up with is hearing what some good classic driver designs can really do. The basic 2 way JBL system is the cornerstone of JBL systems. Some are enhanced with LF and Uhf drivers but they are basically two way systems. The drivers have improved over time and so has how they are used.

The JBL networks back in the day were about low losses and power ratings according to Greg Timbers. They focussed on the drivers. At the time (60's to70's) network design was in its infancy. What Greg did was improve a number of these legacy systems when he arrived at JBL with revised networks and drivers. Greg went on to develop some new systems that started out at home. Greg become a master at blending multi way loudspeaker systems and designed numerous transducers. You can read about this in the library and who were the founding fathers that shaped the evolution of JBL studio monitors. The Array series and the Everest DD65000-DD67000 were some of the most innovative systems that Greg was involved in developing.

Unfortunately Greg was unceremoniously separated from employment on 30 September 2015 ending a 43 year career.

They may as well have thrown the baby out with the bath water. Greg is still evolving his system at home which is now very sophisticated and has recently designed and fabricated a new horn using 3D printing for his home theatre system. There are many things to like about Greg. Its the way Greg applies his mind to solving practical problems that jumps out at you taking an idea and making it real. Greg walks the walk and his designs do the talking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_throw_the_baby_out_with_the_bathwater

[Mr. Widget]

This is the thing.

A very good loudspeaker can sound so so if not set up so it has a fighting change.
Even some dated legacy systems still shine when set up in the hands of an expert.
+1

The 4331 and the rest of the 43XX series are far from perfect, but they can be made to sound surprisingly good. The 4331 has the advantage of having less going on than the others so there is less to “correct”.

FWIW: If I ever find the time and space to put them, a pair of DIY 4331 or 4333s is on my short list.


Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

Ditto.

I have a pair of mint LE 85, 2312/2307 and reconed 2235 waiting for that project.